The pitfalls of deep diving

[Winston]

I have had 2 recent dates where I think I misused deep diving. I'd be grateful if you can help me troubleshoot that.

When I meet these 2 girls, it was in 2 separate social events where I showed a lot of value (because I was an expert in the field relevant to the social event, I knew well the leaders of the group or the main people of the group, I had the attention of the group focus on me during quite a long time, there were DHVs related to lifestyle and wealth built-in in my conversation, etc.).

So it was in a social events where I was high value, I saw that these 2 girls were receptive and curious about me, I asked for their contact details, and then a few day later, I asked them out for a date. Both accepted enthousiastically.

Before each date I was like "ok I have conveyed a ton of value, now let's connect with them" (and I think I am overall rather good at connecting and feeling how people are, I am good at making the social mask drop off. I am more of a listener than a talker).

So during the date I deep dived, but I think maybe too much, or I didn't do enough other things (I don't know, please tell me).

These 2 girls told me very personal stuff, I am sure even their best friend don't know what they have told me. I know them very well, it like their personality have no more mystery for me now. But nothing happened regarding sex and seduction.

And if nothing happened it's partly because of me, because the more I understand them, the less I was interested in them sexually. The more I learned about them, the more I see a person instead of a "sexual object". And the person I learned about was very flawed and not very attractive, from a personality standpoint.

They probably hate me back, they probably hate the fact that I know so much about them without having tried to do something sexual with her. But it likes when I start to get interested in the personality of girls, I hate what I see, and it turns me off.

Anyway since I am here to seduce girls and not see through their core , it's not a good result and I should change something. So maybe I should stop deep diving? Or put some limit on it, and if so, where should the limit be? (like for example should talking about the relationship with their parents be off limits? I find that when you talk about the parents, it's when you learn the more about people). Should I only deep dive later in the courtship process (like after having fucked the girl and not before)?

 

[Rakehell]

It wasn’t the deep diving. You got her opened up and feeling connected to you but didn’t like what she had to show you.

The deep diving served it’s purpose.

Personally I don’t think you have to like all of a girl’s personality to fuck her. I’m willing to bet a majority of guys here don’t love the personalities of the girl’s they fuck.

But you may be different.

If that’s the case then maybe deep diving actually ISN’T for you, because you will more than likely see more of her thought processes than if you didn’t.

But regardless of if you deep dive or not, more of her personality will eventually seep out the longer you are around her.

 

[ulrich]

I think this one is more related to the way you see people and you’re likely projecting some kind of disgust or rejection.

Maybe it boils down to be more open and accepting.

Definitely the problem is not the deep diving itself, rather how you act after finding something you don’t like.

 

[Winston]

I think this one is more related to the way you see people and you’re likely projecting some kind of disgust or rejection.

Maybe it boils down to be more open and accepting.

Definitely the problem is not the deep diving itself, rather how you act after finding something you don’t like.

Ok but how do you reconcile the fact of having criteria and preferences, with being open and accepting?

I clarify that I am not judmental regarding sex, but I agree that I probably come across as judgmental regarding personality characteristics (I try not to show it, but it probably shows independently of my will).

Some little examples to make the discussion more concrete.

1- The girl of last night asked me in the middle of the afternoon to relocate the date in a bar right next to her work office, because she had a rough day at work. I accepted.

I was on time and she showed up 15 minutes late. I find that distateful to be 15 minutes late when you literally just have to cross the street to be at the meeting point. And she made a lip service apology, as if it were almost normal.

Other than that, she was rather enthousiastic about meeting me (I showed the text conversation to a friend and he agreed on that). So I don't think that come from a lack of interest, but rather that it was a small window open on some part of her personality (which I don't like).

2- Another example with the first girl I have in mind (ie. not from last night but from several months ago), at some point toward the end of the date she told me that she see no point in having children because it is a myth that children take care of their parents, because herself almost never visit her mother.

I answered "Well, I visit my mother quite frequently and I take care of her" (and yes, while saying that I was thinking that it's kind of sad/douchey to almost never visit your parents. I cannot help about that. So she probably felt judged by my answer and attitude).

So... how do I not judge girls on their personalities, while still having standards and preferences regarding personality characteristics?

 

[Will_V]

You're putting girls too much on a pedestal, and judging them outside of the context of their role.

Girls are a very much a reflection of what surrounds them in terms of ideas and notions. They live as followers in a society that, these days at least, completely lacks leadership, so everything about their life is generally chaotic and transient. They say things without thinking based on emotional impulses, and the vast majority of guys take it all seriously, either judging them as men (as the red pillers do) or attempting to conform to them (as most of the rest of men do).

The truth is that emotional beings have a very fluid psychology, because emotions are very fluid. Especially when a woman falls in love, everything becomes very malleable and changeable. She becomes infused with the rules and ideologies of her man, she bends and shapes herself to his will, and she seeks to show him, through her submission to what he represents, a reflection of himself that is gratifying to him - this is how she makes him deeply attached to her, and reinforces the characteristics that nature wants him to propagate.

Because of that I don't really take a woman seriously until we start investing in eachother, only then do I pay attention to her mental constitution. Before that I'm only really interested in whether she is fun to be with in the immediate term.

There is a problem for long term relationships though, you can end up in a battle for frame control between yourself and society in general. Women adapt to you as long as you represent the attributes of success within the society you both live in, so if you end up clashing with it or failing to clearly align with some metric of success within it (which is especially hard to navigate nowadays with the message so muddled), it becomes very hard to maintain control over the long term. That's why I believe the society you live in, for LTRs and marriages, is at least as important as the woman herself - her upbringing gives her a disposition, but cannot be relied on to prevent strong ideologies she is exposed to constantly from making their way into her mental framework.

Before we get to that point though, I just treat her as any other girl - someone with whom I can share a fun, enjoyable, playful time with once or twice a week. I don't expect her to live up to anything more than that.

 

[Winston]

You're putting girls too much on a pedestal, and judging them outside of the context of their role.

Girls are a very much a reflection of what surrounds them in terms of ideas and notions. They live as followers in a society that, these days at least, completely lacks leadership, so everything about their life is generally chaotic and transient. They say things without thinking based on emotional impulses, and the vast majority of guys take it all seriously, either judging them as men (as the red pillers do) or attempting to conform to them (as most of the rest of men do).

The truth is that emotional beings have a very fluid psychology, because emotions are very fluid. Especially when a woman falls in love, everything becomes very malleable and changeable. She becomes infused with the rules and ideologies of her man, she bends and shapes herself to his will, and she seeks to show him, through her submission to what he represents, a reflection of himself that is gratifying to him - this is how she makes him deeply attached to her, and reinforces the characteristics that nature wants him to propagate.

Because of that I don't really take a woman seriously until we start investing in eachother, only then do I pay attention to her mental constitution. Before that I'm only really interested in whether she is fun to be with in the immediate term.

There is a problem for long term relationships though, you can end up in a battle for frame control between yourself and society in general. Women adapt to you as long as you represent the attributes of success within the society you both live in, so if you end up clashing with it or failing to clearly align with some metric of success within it (which is especially hard to navigate nowadays with the message so muddled), it becomes very hard to maintain control over the long term. That's why I believe the society you live in, for LTRs and marriages, is at least as important as the woman herself - her upbringing gives her a disposition, but cannot be relied on to prevent strong ideologies she is exposed to constantly from making their way into her mental framework.

Before we get to that point though, I just treat her as any other girl - someone with whom I can share a fun, enjoyable, playful time with once or twice a week. I don't expect her to live up to anything more than that.

That are some interesting thoughts.

However, this treats women as interchangeable, any personal difference being drawned in the ocean of their common feminity. Whereas I think there are significant differences between women personalities.

To keep pounding on the example of being late on dates:
- my ex girlfriend kept telling me how she was always late in general. But with me she never was late, I cannot remember one time where I get impatient waiting here, probably because she had never been late when meeting me.
- Last year I went to [REDACTED], to do some daygame and I had several dates, among them 2 dates with really beautiful girls. Both of them showed up 10 minutes early at the meeting point:

(I was thinking "wtf is this country where stunners show up 10 minutes early on dates").

And to me, these are small details that are significant and reflect, I think, the right kind of attitude and personnality. When I say "the right", I mean the one I find enjoyable. A hint of the beginning of a submission to what I represent, that you talk about.

Maybe all girls are malleable, but maybe they aren't all made of the same clays?

But anyways those are (very interesting) background philosophical and mindset considerations.

From a more tactical and pragmatical standpoint, when you say you don’t pay attention to her mental constitution, and don't take her seriously, until after you both have invested into each other. Do you mean you don’t deep dive before having slept with her?

Stop deep diving during dates seems more easily implementable than changing my whole view on women (even if I will keep that train of thougts on the back of my mind to examine this more deeply over the long run).

 

[ulrich]

Stop deep diving during dates seems more easily implementable than changing my whole view on women (even if I will keep that train of thougts on the back of my mind to examine this more deeply over the long run).

That might be sensible advice for you in the meanwhile.

However, if you want to reach mastery, eventually you will need to work on being less judgmental (or at least projecting so).

I have been in that situation myself several times.
When a girl says something that really turns me off like that, I shrug and think to myself “alright, no gf potential this time, she will be a fun lay and that’s all”.

 

[Chase]

@Winston,

You are going to find a lot of things out about people when you start deep diving.

Some of it may be unattractive or ugly. Deep dive enough and you discover everyone has warts and flaws.

There are a few ways to deal with this:

1. You can stop deep diving, and switch to a more superficial type of game. Arousal-based game, or a more exhibition/showcase-type game. Then you won't encounter things below the surface for which you may not be prepared
   
   
2. You can learn to view deep diving as just a 'game', and stop caring so much about what is being said. Then whatever she says, it is simply something to get you to the next step of the seduction.
   
   
3. Or you can just push through, deep dive enough girls that you have heard it all, and it stops affecting you, they can tell you just about anything, and it won't impact your attraction. "Ah, I see; you are THAT type of girl," you will think to yourself, and she is one of many familiar types you have encountered time and again. You won't be turned off at seeing her fears, flaws, failures, misconceptions, and so on; you will just see her as a human, like every human, but still an attractive human you would like to bed

On a more micro level:

• Girls being late: just expect girls to be late, and be able to be by yourself and be okay. Sometimes they'll be late. Sometimes they'll be early. Sometimes they'll be right on time. If your expectation is "She'll probably be late," then if she is, no biggie. If she's on time or early, hey, nice bonus.
  
  
• Girls having X opinion: her opinions only matter for long-term. If she supports Y political party you hate, or believes in Z religion you find distasteful, or supports ABC social policy you dislike or dislikes MNO lifestyle choice you like, who cares? Just get off that topic ASAP.

On the topic of "only reason to have children is to have them take care of you": this is a weird opinion you will hear (from both sides) from women:

• You have to have children because otherwise who will take care of you when you're older?
• There's no point having children because children don't take care of their parents when they're older anymore

It's basically an ugly opinion to hear no matter what the woman's opinion is. You won't hear most men saying, "I want my kids to take care of me when I'm old!" or "I'm not having kids because they won't take care of me!" Either way you dice it this opinion is a little bit gross IMO. But a LOT of women have it... it is just very common female psychology.

Unless you're there to debate philosophy rather than sleep with girls though, there's no benefit to arguing feminine priorities.

Personally, when I hear one of these have/don't have kids due to their taking-care-of-you-potential opinions, because it is a gross opinion IMO (role of the parent is to protect, nurture, & train the child and then set them free to go forth into the world if you ask me... not to train up little servants to care for them in their twilight years), I just get the girl off the topic with humor before it gets too annoying:

HER: (some stereotypical female opinion about the value/lack of value of children as caretakers)​

​

ME: You know, I hear chimpanzees are pretty good as helpmates these days.​

​

HER: (laughs) (some joking comment about chimpanzees)​

​

ME: (change topics)​

Also, if you're pro-kids and she's anti-kids, you're in a good spot, because a.) it doesn't matter for sleeping with her a few times, and b.) if she ends up wanting to date you, all you need to do is just repeatedly reminder her "Well I'm having N number of kids. Could be with you, could be with someone else. But I'm having them." Then it's on her to decide if she wants to hop off that train at some point and go find a guy she likes as much as you who doesn't want kids... or if she is on it all the way to a nursery full of bouncing babies with you.

So, again, not something worth getting worked up about before you've shagged a girl. You'd be surprised how many "I don't see the point of having kids" chicks end up with buns in the oven a few years after saying that too, FYI.

Chase