This one has been bothering me A LOT lately, please answer?

[sneaky_charm]

This one has been bothering me for a while now. Well, it seems like we are back at level one again!

What I mean is, we are basically reaching the same conclusions as the general consensus.

For example, Chase says that we can get even the most beautiful girls easily if we set the right frames, yet he also points out in several articles that the higher the value of a girl, the less she puts herself out there.

In a forum post, he even mentions that the girls who are from really good families tend to be proper, and tend to have very few partners.

Also, in one of Drexel’s forum threads someone mentions that ‘that is what makes them relationship material to begin with’ as a response to a comment that says some girls take too long to go to bed no matter what you do.

In addition to that, Chase has a whole article devoted to why he does not date girls who club, drink or party any more. The general social conditioning is pretty much the same, that those girls are not good.

The general social conditioning is something like ‘girls who sleep with lesser number of men are good, and vice versa’. We do not incline so much toward that mentality, but the overall conclusion is almost the same, only not for the same reason. Our thinking goes more like ‘the girls who sleep with less men are good relationship materials because loyalty decreases as the number of partner increases’.

So basically, we are reaching the same conclusions as the popular beliefs, but not for the same reasons, right? We are just not judgmental enough to divide girls as ‘good’ or ‘bad’, and are exploring the real reasons by going a lot deeper. Is that it?

 

[trashKENNUT]

sneaky_charm,

Mainstream thinking is based on flawed premise as well, many of them. Anyway.. there are party girls who go to parties with their boyfriends whom pulled away from you even if they like you. I'm not in the position where Chase is. But i also see there are party girls who adopt a "party with boyfriend/friends" and they tend to mingle among themselves.

I don't believe in a girl that takes too long to bed. Three dates maybe but no because women will signal you from time to time during the date to progress. What Chase means is that the initial interaction is you put more effort.

p.s: yesterday as an example, i walking down the street, saw a girl, very pretty. She must have felt me by sexual transmission because she was hot. She just turn side, look at the road and also looking at me very partially because i was walking to the traffic light, wanting to cross the left side while she is waiting to cross forward. The traffic light was on but she took a slight few seconds to slow down. I didn't approached her and she walk slightly fast the next few seconds to pace up, getting back to walking normally. It still an unbelievable thing. i talk to Chase about it. His article happened to appeared at the right time.

Zac

 

[sneaky_charm]

Hey Zac,

I was really hoping to hear from you on this one. Thanks for contributing!

By 'too long', I mean more than one date. So you are saying that after the number close, everything works the same way?

Also, how have your experiences been like with women who were really beautiful, from good backgrounds, and highly ambitious - all at the same time?

- Sneaky Charm

 

[trashKENNUT]

Sneaky_charm,

By 'too long', I mean more than one date. So you are saying that after the number close, everything works the same way?

If it takes more than one date, all too often she doesn't like you very much, to bluntly put it. I know this because even intelligent girls gets restless near the end of the date if you don't do anything.

p.s: Apologies, i mean that her attraction fades with more dates.

Also, how have your experiences been like with women who were really beautiful, from good backgrounds, and highly ambitious - all at the same time?

To put it simply, Strong eye contacts.... Erm another one will be out of the blue questions like "do you have a job?", "where you live" (Chase noted this too) for no fucking reason. I haven't date them enough because you need to do lesser and lesser mistakes as you move up.

Zac

 

[Drck]

What does it mean high or higher value girl? It could be different for different guys.

In my world, high value girl is highly educated, she's got access to good finances and/or income, she is very intelligent, she's got good family background, she's got lots of friends/huge social circle. She is open minded, spreads around lots of positive energy. She could be very cute, very sexy and very silly, but she could also be very dominant. She is of course smoky hot/sexy, if that needs to be mentioned.

Here is my observation:
* She vibes with most people very easily as she has many friends and experience with dealing with people
* Every guy, unless sort of asshole or Red Pill swallower wants to be around her
* She "plays" with different guys whenever she wants, she can easily flirt with 18 year old puppy or 55 year old man
* She doesn't "hurt" a guy when she has to reject him, she does it in planned, long term way (after she dated him). She literaly has a plan in her head and she executes it one step at a time so the guy feels least pain possible. Unless the guy is around seduction for a while, he is of course clueless that he is being dump, he then overreacts - and that is just a disaster because now he behaves like a child...
* She dates only specific guys: guys who have the same or higher education that she does; guy who have access to finances (doesn't have to be rich but got to have potential to make good money); guy who has access to social circle and so on.
* She is actually quite open (to my surprise) to dating typical Nice Guy - as long as he has the other characteristics. It is perhaps because she herself is quite independent, dominant and leading, thus Nice Guy is naturally more submissive to her
* At the same time, if dominant guy is around she will go for the more dominant guy
* She chooses her BF very careful. She smiles, jokes, flirts, she is cute and silly, she buys you things, she teases you with sexy hints - but don't be fooled for a second that behind that pretty smiling face is also a very cold calculator. She judges you and compares you to many different guys, she memorizes your movements, she remembers ALL details about what you said long time ago, and depending on all the variables she feels to currently select, once the calculator does its final spit of results - there is no changing her mind no matter what...
* Because of her background, her own frame is very strong to have guy only as a BF. She frames and dates guys as BF only - She will not risk to be caught with a fling under any circumstances, she will immediately cut any ties to that guy who "had a chance"
* As a matter of fact, her overall frame is VERY strong, most guys collapse into it, most guys orbiting, many thinking that they MIGHT have chance - which of course is not the case...

It is actually quite an interesting experience to be around girl like this, if you ever get a chance and meet a girl like this, spent as much as time with her as possible, even as a friend. The learning curve is very steep.

If you want to seduce such a girl, here is a couple of tips:

* Be ready to spent lots of energy and time, the chances that you will sleep with her fast are very low
* Be more dominant and leading than her. She may "overwrite" you several times just to test your frame, you simply must persist
* She will not give you many windows. The window will come fast, you may not even realize that it was a window until several minutes later (which basically means that you are not true sexy MF yet, thus you don't have a chance anyway). If she really really likes you she may give you 2-3 windows at most, then you are gone
* Shut the fuck up. There is NO ONE who you discuss your desire to sleep with her. Your closest friend shouldn't even suspect that you are after her. The second she realizes that you are talking - the very same second you are gone
* She may not have much sexual experience at all. All her BF were chosen carefully, you spent all the time and energy, you gave up other girls because of her - and now she's just laying there doesn't do anything, and you are banging and banging her, thinking to yourself why didn't you just jerk off instead...
* For the same reason - not enough sexual experience, low number of partners, fear of someone finding out - she may be VERY anxious. She might tell you that she took pills to lower her anxiety, should she e.g. drive you someplace. GOT THE HINT? That is actually a window...
* There is no seduction. Don't play any foolish game. She may never heard about seduction or game, but you can be sure that she "knows" it. Just be sincere in your desire to have sex with her, be dominant, independent and fast guy who doesn't hesitate a second should he get the chance...
* She herself is honest, she doesn't play any games with you. She will tell you directly yet politely that she is not interested if that's the case
* Another thing: Don't "hang aroun", don't orbit (unless you want to be a friend as mentioned above, in that case being friend is a good experience - you just won't get laid). Fast in and fast out. This might be very painful because she will hang around many other guys - except you. But those guys won't fuck her as they are her friends, while you do have at least SOME chance...

The question is, does it really worth it? You are risking a lot, the potential to sleep with her is low no matter what skills you have, and you may not even get a good sex.

On the other hand, if you want to marry such girl, I would say yes, it's worth it. She is a good material, she will invest into you a lot, she will take good care of you, you will have a great family, and you won't be sorry. Just make sure you don't bore her to death and she will never be unfaitful to you. But if that is the case, you better start polishing your BF/provider material...

 

[ProblemSolving]

Hey sneaky,

I'm not sure how you disagree with Chase's conclusion that girls with high partner counts tend to make poor long-term monogamous relationship prospects. Chase has cited several studies that demonstrate the relationship between female sexual partner count and marriage stress/divorce. It doesn't make these women BAD. These girls are perfect for casual relationships; however, if your goal is long term monogamy, then it might be wise to look elsewhere.

Instead of trying to force square pegs into round holes, keep things with high partner count girls casual - that's what they are used to.

 

[sneaky_charm]

In my world, high value girl is highly educated, she's got access to good finances and/or income, she is very intelligent, she's got good family background, she's got lots of friends/huge social circle. She is open minded, spreads around lots of positive energy. She could be very cute, very sexy and very silly, but she could also be very dominant. She is of course smoky hot/sexy, if that needs to be mentioned.

For me, high value is almost the same.

Here is my observation:
* She vibes with most people very easily as she has many friends and experience with dealing with people
* Every guy, unless sort of asshole or Red Pill swallower wants to be around her
* She "plays" with different guys whenever she wants, she can easily flirt with 18 year old puppy or 55 year old man
* She doesn't "hurt" a guy when she has to reject him, she does it in planned, long term way (after she dated him). She literaly has a plan in her head and she executes it one step at a time so the guy feels least pain possible. Unless the guy is around seduction for a while, he is of course clueless that he is being dump, he then overreacts - and that is just a disaster because now he behaves like a child...
* She dates only specific guys: guys who have the same or higher education that she does; guy who have access to finances (doesn't have to be rich but got to have potential to make good money); guy who has access to social circle and so on.
* She is actually quite open (to my surprise) to dating typical Nice Guy - as long as he has the other characteristics. It is perhaps because she herself is quite independent, dominant and leading, thus Nice Guy is naturally more submissive to her
* At the same time, if dominant guy is around she will go for the more dominant guy
* She chooses her BF very careful. She smiles, jokes, flirts, she is cute and silly, she buys you things, she teases you with sexy hints - but don't be fooled for a second that behind that pretty smiling face is also a very cold calculator. She judges you and compares you to many different guys, she memorizes your movements, she remembers ALL details about what you said long time ago, and depending on all the variables she feels to currently select, once the calculator does its final spit of results - there is no changing her mind no matter what...
* Because of her background, her own frame is very strong to have guy only as a BF. She frames and dates guys as BF only - She will not risk to be caught with a fling under any circumstances, she will immediately cut any ties to that guy who "had a chance"
* As a matter of fact, her overall frame is VERY strong, most guys collapse into it, most guys orbiting, many thinking that they MIGHT have chance - which of course is not the case...

It is actually quite an interesting experience to be around girl like this, if you ever get a chance and meet a girl like this, spent as much as time with her as possible, even as a friend. The learning curve is very steep.

Okay, will keep that in mind. Sounds like an uphill battle at this point for me.

If you want to seduce such a girl, here is a couple of tips:

* Be ready to spent lots of energy and time, the chances that you will sleep with her fast are very low
* Be more dominant and leading than her. She may "overwrite" you several times just to test your frame, you simply must persist
* She will not give you many windows. The window will come fast, you may not even realize that it was a window until several minutes later (which basically means that you are not true sexy MF yet, thus you don't have a chance anyway). If she really really likes you she may give you 2-3 windows at most, then you are gone
* Shut the fuck up. There is NO ONE who you discuss your desire to sleep with her. Your closest friend shouldn't even suspect that you are after her. The second she realizes that you are talking - the very same second you are gone
* She may not have much sexual experience at all. All her BF were chosen carefully, you spent all the time and energy, you gave up other girls because of her - and now she's just laying there doesn't do anything, and you are banging and banging her, thinking to yourself why didn't you just jerk off instead...
* For the same reason - not enough sexual experience, low number of partners, fear of someone finding out - she may be VERY anxious. She might tell you that she took pills to lower her anxiety, should she e.g. drive you someplace. GOT THE HINT? That is actually a window...
* There is no seduction. Don't play any foolish game. She may never heard about seduction or game, but you can be sure that she "knows" it. Just be sincere in your desire to have sex with her, be dominant, independent and fast guy who doesn't hesitate a second should he get the chance...
* She herself is honest, she doesn't play any games with you. She will tell you directly yet politely that she is not interested if that's the case
* Another thing: Don't "hang aroun", don't orbit (unless you want to be a friend as mentioned above, in that case being friend is a good experience - you just won't get laid). Fast in and fast out. This might be very painful because she will hang around many other guys - except you. But those guys won't fuck her as they are her friends, while you do have at least SOME chance...

The question is, does it really worth it? You are risking a lot, the potential to sleep with her is low no matter what skills you have, and you may not even get a good sex.

Okay, seems like you have to be ABSOLUTELY on the top of your game. Got it!

On the other hand, if you want to marry such girl, I would say yes, it's worth it. She is a good material, she will invest into you a lot, she will take good care of you, you will have a great family, and you won't be sorry. Just make sure you don't bore her to death and she will never be unfaitful to you. But if that is the case, you better start polishing your BF/provider material...

Well, I don't know about marrying, but my reason for learning game is landing very high caliber girls whom I truly like, and who match with me on a personality level. Let's see!

But you didn't answer my actual question. So we are basically reaching the same conclusions, only not for the reasons society tells us, right?

 

[sneaky_charm]

I'm not sure how you disagree with Chase's conclusion that girls with high partner counts tend to make poor long-term monogamous relationship prospects. Chase has cited several studies that demonstrate the relationship between female sexual partner count and marriage stress/divorce.

Hi! I never said that I disagree. Please read the post again, I think you read it in a hurry. I said that I agree. I just want to know if we are reaching the same conclusions basically like the general consensus.

It doesn't make these women BAD. These girls are perfect for casual relationships; however, if your goal is long term monogamy, then it might be wise to look elsewhere.

I never said those girls are bad either. Please at least read my post carefully.

 

[sneaky_charm]

p.s: Apologies, i mean that her attraction fades with more dates.

So Zac, if a girl is really good, how many dates will you spend on her maximum without sleeping?

 

[trashKENNUT]

sneaky_charm,

So Zac, if a girl is really good, how many dates will you spend on her maximum without sleeping?

IT is not whether how many dates you will spend on her. It is that she won't give you a second date, at all. Here's a little nugget.

Zac–

Rob has a good point on grit. Whatever talent I have is “clumsy” talent… I make loads of mistakes while trying to learn something. I make loads of mistakes still even when I’m GOOD at something. I think the only thing that saves me is that I assume that if I want to get anything, I’ve simply got to see it through to the end.

You may be right on the correlation between closing out on the last 5% of things and on absolute abundance. For me, these two hit right about the same time: right as I started focusing on closing out the last 5% of a seduction better and better, that’s when I routinely started closing out on high quality girls very quickly as well – and those were the girls who were most likely to vanish without a trace after any kind of failed date or escalation. The higher quality the girl, the more unforgiving she is of mistakes, and getting good at closing out the last 5% is really the end stage of wrapping up your pickups into something truly tight.

Absolute abundance is tied to knowing that you can get a very high quality girlfriend within a short span of time – all you’ve got to do is go looking for her, and you’ll have her soon. And high quality girls are very intolerant of men making mistakes during seductions – one tiny uncorrected error, and you’re in the friend zone before you can blink. The last 5% is ironing out the last place most guys routinely make mistakes – putting the finishing touches on their seductions and actually taking girls who were receptive to them to bed.

If you want a simple way of thinking about this, think about improving your success rates in seduction as a process of identifying where mistakes occur, and removing those mistakes. When you can run through a seduction with a pretty girl without making any mistakes, you’ll end up with her in bed.

When you can do that routinely, you’ll end up with near-perfect abundance.

Chase