Top 20% of men argument

[Marty]

Hi all,

Elsewhere in the manosphere, a lot of writers make the argument that since women tend to choose the top 20% of guys (so-called "hypergamy"), most men are unlikely to get chosen.

So my questions are as follows:

(a) Do women generally agree on who these top 20% actually are?

(b) If the answer to (a) is "yes", then there must be some specific qualities that these men exhibit that allows women to recognize them as in the top 20%, in which case is it possible to imitate these qualities and thus be oneself recognized as in the top 20%?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Marty

 

[Seppuku]

Marty,

Interesting post. We are right at the heart of the seduction matter.

(a) Do women generally agree on who these top 20% actually are?

(b) If the answer to (a) is "yes", then there must be some specific qualities that these men exhibit that allows women to recognize them as in the top 20%, in which case is it possible to imitate these qualities and thus be oneself recognized as in the top 20%?

Top 20% of men, but from which point of view? Sexual mating? Or long term mating? We're right back into the Lover vs Provider dichotomy.

But yes, there are some traits that women agree on, no matter race, culture, education, religion, especially when it comes to sexual mating.

And this is what seduction is all about, and why it works so well.

Learning seduction is essentially about learning how to replicate these characteristics that are so appealing to women from a sexual point of view. Well, at least initially, because when you can pull it off and make it work, you slowly embrace these characteristics and they become a part of you... And ultimately you don't need to fake them anymore.

And because these sexually appealing traits are deeply rooted into women psychology, they have a somewhat universal character - meaning that girls roughly agree to what these traits are.

Elsewhere in the manosphere, a lot of writers make the argument that since women tend to choose the top 20% of guys (so-called "hypergamy"), most men are unlikely to get chosen.

But it is not true that the 80% bottom are unlikely to get chosen. That's why marriage exists, a long term one-to-one pairing. The problem with the top 20% guys is that every woman wants them. They are swimming in a sea of women. So their incentive to monogamously settle down with just one, is very low. Hence, they are difficult to control. So, most women will fail at making such a top man settle with them. Ultimately, they leave in frustration and decide to go down one step in the pyramid, and settle with one of the 80% - on the basis of his Provider traits. That's why the bottom 80% manage to get their share, too. Well, most of them at least, because in the 80% you also have a minority of men who are not attractive at all, both from Lover and Provider point of view. These guys are the totally transparent ones.

Regarding what the Lover characteristics are, there's a whole lot of articles here in GC. Let us summarize what I think is the main one, in a nutshell:

He is not ashamed of his own sexuality and he takes what he wants unapologetically.

In sum, he is an impudent, self-confident sexual man who is used to lead the women he wants to the bed, with no second thoughts.

Other characteristics are good to have, such as status, or wealth, but they are more into the Provider category.

Seppuku

 

[Average]

Sup marty,

Hypergamy is the instinct within women to seek out the alphas of a group. This maximizes survival for her and her offspring.

In general, the top 20% of men tend to be the ones that guys look towards for making excuses as too why they aren't getting results with women:

1. The rich
2. The handsome
3. The athlete

The guys women go for are the ones that will benefit the women. If she sleeps with a rich dude, she'll be spoiled by him, etc. If she sleeps with the athlete, she'll probably get some good sex.

Remember that alpha doesn't look exactly the same as it did during the caveman days as the modern world requires a more sophisticated approach at domination.

There are many fields in which people can excel though. Sport, academics, spiritually, etc.

There are also many ways in which guys can be valuable to a woman. Social status, friendship, validation, etc.

Romantically, to be considered part of the top percentage, you'll be slot into one of 2 categories:

Provider or lover.

You'll need to be romantically valuable to a girl AND excel at it for you to be considered as part of the top 20% and to reap the benefits of it from women.

How you can do this is pretty much the purpose of the site. It probably takes a lot though, which is why there is so much advice available on here.

You could also game in such a way that the girl is tricked into believing that you are a high value man, but this is only a temporary solution, and girls are ruthlessly designed to smell that out. Actually becoming a variant of yourself that IS part of the top 20% is a more permanent solution, and is the reason why the seduction learning curve can be longer. As the reasoning and motivations behind everything needs to be learnt, reviewed, replaced, etc.

It's all about looking at it in terms of seduction (so you can excel at the right thing) and being the best valuable option that she can get (so she can benefit from you romantically).

 

[Marty]

He is not ashamed of his own sexuality and he takes what he wants unapologetically.

Interesting take.

If for simplicity I measure myself against this (while I am digesting the rest of your content), then in terms of taking what I want, I have always been more or less okay at this. Sometimes I get blamed for acting without authority, but nothing that a good feather-smoothing won't fix.

As far as my own sexuality is concerned, I am probably not too good on that front. I remember one night some years ago with a girlfriend, after sex, she wanted to talk about preferred sexual practices, I said okay I guess, she mentioned a few activities she enjoyed, but never got anything out of me. I don't think I could ever speak to anyone about that. The funny thing was, she thought we had discussed it, as she had brought up some preferences, but I maintained my view that it was a subject too delicate to broach, which confused her as she had not thought of the point that I hadn't actually said anything myself.

But I am definitely very shy as far as sex is concerned. I am anxious about my own performance and I remember an occasion when a woman scolded me afterward for not believing in myself, she said the moment I had walked into the room she knew she was dealing with a man, and that I should get rid of the hangups. But I have never really left them behind.

The thing is, the whole sex thing makes me a bit uncomfortable and has done all my life. What I want is not really to get laid but to actually be liked by a girl. You can sleep with a girl and she might still not like you. Obviously wanting to be liked by a girl is a sexual desire in itself, biologically speaking. Thus I don't exactly know what you mean by being ashamed of one's own sexuality, but if there is anyone who has hangups about sex, it is I.

-Marty

 

[Seppuku]

He is not ashamed of his own sexuality and he takes what he wants unapologetically.

Well I realize I wasn't clear. The above has to be understood purely in the context of sexual mating. Let me rephrase, hopefully more clearly, what I tried to convey:

He fully embraces his masculinity without shame or apology for his natural desires as a man.

I realize that Franco says is it better in his Manual of Seduction:

In words, actions and omissions I speak, move and behave in such a way that I never ask for forgiveness about my personality and my sexual desire as a male. I am an impudent individual

His main characteristics are Impudence and Leadership. Women can tell from the very first minutes of interaction that he is a Sexual man. Someone who is able to (sub) communicate that he is a Sexual man, will usually be in the top 20% we're talking about.

Chase had a very good article somewhere on GC, where he describes the "hide the banana" behavior of these 80% bottom men. "There is a banana, but I hide it until the last minute surprise". This is the wrong approach. The more successful approach is "I have a banana. I'm proud of it and I shove it to your face". This is exactly what I meant by "embracing sexuality without shame or apology" above.

To your point, I don't usually discuss my sexual preferences with a girl (although I wouldn't have a problem I think) but I certainly try to execute these preferences when I'm in bed. I do, however, sub-communicate sexuality to the girl within the first 60 minutes of the first date. My own way (which fits me) is to use a lot of touch, use sexy smile and sexy voice, and use sexual innuendos when possible. I think it is very important to present yourself in this way from the very beginning, since this is when she is making her first and lasting impression of yourself.

Regarding your anxiety and shyness around sex. I was probably the same when I started. But with laycount, it gets much, much easier, until you don't experience it anymore. This sexual confidence, in turn, transcribes into your behavior and helps you to better communicate you're a sexual man, making it easier for you to get more lays. There is a sort of positive feedback, virtuous circle.

Wanting to be liked by a girl is neediness, and doesn't help - on the opposite actually. The sexual man doesn't care about being liked. He is impudent. And that is a characteristics which is, in fact, very attractive to women. That's why assholes succeed better.

Seppuku