Trouble Reaching the Hook point.

[Bboy100]

Ok, so just now, I had my first outing specifically to meet women. My goal for the night was to approach and have a conversation with 5 sets. By the end of the night, I had approached 7. I opened two of them direct and one of them indirect direct. So I reached my goal. Perhaps I could have set the bar a little higher though (i.e. go for 10 approaches instead of 5 etc.).

At any rate, each of the conversations I had went something like this:

Me: Hey guys, how are you doing tonight
Her/Them: Good
Me: My name's Bboy
Her/Them: My name is x & y.
Me: Cool, are you guys Western students?
Her/Them: Yes/no
At this point, I started to focus the conversation on the specific girl I was going for:
Me: So what do you study?
Her: Answers
Me: Cool, what do you plan to do with it
Her: Answer
After this, she usually turns her body and stops paying attention to me.


I'm very aware of how boring and average these conversations are. But I'm unsure of what to do to make them better. I'm having a hard time figuring out ways to tease them and/or make it sound like less of an interrogation.
I'm guessing the reason I eventually get blown off is because of how boring these conversations are. Any advice on how to improve them? Any comments in general?

 

[Tripz]

Chase framing, sexual framing and just dropping in somr jokes here and there, and also genuine compliments really help people kind of attatch to you because as women they have mostly heard it all.

 

[Smith]

Try to stay on a topic they brought up and say 3 things about it - 2 normal and 1 cheeky.

Me:"You guys look like Western students!"
Her: "yes"
Me: "My friend was one too! he told me western students are very outgoing and social but also very nerdy...everyone carries a textbook on campus"
Her: 'haha blah blah blah" (she'll tell you if it's true then you can go from there"

 

[Richard]

Bro. You need to have more fun with this.

You're focusing too much on trying to game women, on figuring out what the best thing to say is, etc. Don't. Stop. Right now. I can almost guarantee that you are resisting the thoughts that you have and trying to figure out what to say instead of saying what you feel.

Slow down your speech, and maintain eye contact. She'll put in the work to carry the conversation and you will make things naturally more sexual.

 

[Troy]

Me: Hey guys, how are you doing tonight
Her/Them: Good
Me: My name's Bboy
Her/Them: My name is x & y.
Me: Cool, are you guys Western students?
Her/Them: Yes/no
At this point, I started to focus the conversation on the specific girl I was going for:
Me: So what do you study?
Her: Answers
Me: Cool, what do you plan to do with it
Her: Answer
After this, she usually turns her body and stops paying attention to me.

****shiver**** this reminds me of what I do sometimes. And sometimes I catch myself and crack a joke. The conversation is way too boring to start. From you said " so what do you study " the conversation already went downhill. Make it more exciting. Give the group some indication why youare approaching them. And please crack a joke with the entire group. It feels you just went up and wanted to cut to the chase and the group probably felt uncomfortable. If I was there I would have been uncomfortable and seeked to get away. Do you need tips on having more fun with conversation beginnings?.... Other than that I don't see anything else you are doing wrong.

Avoid boring cliches at the beginning of conversations. Bring energy to the group and they will welcome you and the girl will be more open to talking. I know it sounds hard to deal with the group but you had the courage to approach nevertheless so don't be hard on yourself. . Guts dude. +1

Troy

 

[Bboy100]

Bro. You need to have more fun with this.

You're focusing too much on trying to game women, on figuring out what the best thing to say is, etc. Don't. Stop. Right now. I can almost guarantee that you are resisting the thoughts that you have and trying to figure out what to say instead of saying what you feel.

Slow down your speech, and maintain eye contact. She'll put in the work to carry the conversation and you will make things naturally more sexual.

I know what you're talking about. I've heard people calling this "being stuck in my own head" or "not being present minded". Typically, lack of present mindedness is what stops me from approaching to begin with. At any rate, this felt different from that. I wasn't resisting thoughts. But rather, I feel like I lacked thoughts. I'd force myself to start the conversation before I even knew what I was gonna say (if I stop to think about it, I talk myself out of the approach) then I'd have nothing to say after "Hi". So I'd say the first thing which popped into my head. No filter, no nothing. And this boring, lame stuff happened to be it. lol. This is also why only a few of my approaches were direct. I usually started the conversation before I even knew what I was gonna compliment her on. haha

Still though, all these conversations felt way less natural than any other time I've met girls. Whether it be Tinder dates or Social Circle, I always feel like I had much better conversation skills. Even when I was just starting out. So you must be at least partially if not completely right. What would you recommend? Do you think its just a matter of doing more approaches/getting comfortable? Or do I need to do more meditation/ "getting in state" type exercises?

I'm not sure if I had good eye contact or not. I can't remember. But I definitely feel like I was talking louder and faster than I normally do. Also, I feel like I had a lot more adrenaline then I usually do when I'm talking to girls. I had this weird panicky feeling. The same one we get when we're in fight or flight mode.

Chase framing, sexual framing and just dropping in somr jokes here and there, and also genuine compliments really help people kind of attatch to you because as women they have mostly heard it all.

****shiver**** this reminds me of what I do sometimes. And sometimes I catch myself and crack a joke.

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. The problem is, I feel like I lack a well developed sense of humor. I can be funny/ do some chase framing from time to time, but not on command. So coming up with something witty/funny can be very difficult for me. I'd love to develop my sense of humor more, but I don't really know how.

Try to stay on a topic they brought up and say 3 things about it - 2 normal and 1 cheeky.

I like this. It would probably also make a cool exercise just while I'm sitting around at home reflecting on my interactions.

 

[Troy]

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. The problem is, I feel like I lack a well developed sense of humor. I can be funny/ do some chase framing from time to time, but not on command. So coming up with something witty/funny can be very difficult for me. I'd love to develop my sense of humor more, but I don't really know how.

In case you haven't gotten this e-book, here it is. I hope it's what the doc ordered for you Make Girl's Laugh ps. It's the same one I put up from time to time.

Troy

 

[Richard]

I know what you're talking about. I've heard people calling this "being stuck in my own head" or "not being present minded". Typically, lack of present mindedness is what stops me from approaching to begin with. At any rate, this felt different from that. I wasn't resisting thoughts. But rather, I feel like I lacked thoughts. I'd force myself to start the conversation before I even knew what I was gonna say (if I stop to think about it, I talk myself out of the approach) then I'd have nothing to say after "Hi". So I'd say the first thing which popped into my head. No filter, no nothing. And this boring, lame stuff happened to be it. lol. This is also why only a few of my approaches were direct. I usually started the conversation before I even knew what I was gonna compliment her on. haha

Still though, all these conversations felt way less natural than any other time I've met girls. Whether it be Tinder dates or Social Circle, I always feel like I had much better conversation skills. Even when I was just starting out. So you must be at least partially if not completely right. What would you recommend? Do you think its just a matter of doing more approaches/getting comfortable? Or do I need to do more meditation/ "getting in state" type exercises?

I'm not sure if I had good eye contact or not. I can't remember. But I definitely feel like I was talking louder and faster than I normally do. Also, I feel like I had a lot more adrenaline then I usually do when I'm talking to girls. I had this weird panicky feeling. The same one we get when we're in fight or flight mode.

You may "know" what I'm talking about conceptually, but you've got to understand it realistically. When your mind is going blank it isn't because you have nothing to say, it's because you're searching for the "right' thing to say at a metacognitive level. In essence your unconscious mind is sifting through thousands and thousands of possible sentences - screening them out for what your mind thinks is best.

"She's got a hot body." <--- I can't say that because it sounds creepy.
"You girls out partying tonight?" <--- I can't say that because it sounds fake.
"Hey, how's it going tonight?" <--- I can say that because it's safe.

This is why your mind goes blank as well. The only openers and thoughts you come up with are safe ones which lead to nowhere exciting with women. Furthermore, you've got some approach anxiety going on (hence the fight or flight response). Your body does not know the difference between approaching a hot girl and a savage tiger ready to attack you: your body reacts the same way in both instances and it's called an amygdala hijack.

There's a lot you can do to help with this. You can take that nervous energy and visualize it as a massive ball of fire circling through your body (I've done a lot of research and mental images are actually strong effectors of state than internal dialogue), you can simply breathe a little more deeply and let the oxygen get back to your brain, or you can approach until your body and brain gets used to that pressure.

In Tinder and Social Circle game your operating more safely with either girls you know, or girls you will likely never see face to face again. You can be daring and bold on Tinder because it's not face to face. If you say "Suck my dick" it doesn't matter because there are no direct or social repercussions to saying that on Tinder but there are in person.

Meditation can help as well if you use it to became aware and conscious of your thoughts. I started meditating a little over a year ago and still squeeze in daily to reflect and it helps your brain to become aware of your thoughts and feelings.

All in all, the only fool proof method to conquering this is just getting out there and facing that fear by direct approaching women.

 

[mindful]

Lol I'm gonna try that too. I like that one.

 

[ray_zorse]

There's some good advice here, but my 2 cents is basically that it comes from the experience of approaching hundreds of women and seeing what works and what doesn't. However, your learning process is definitely accelerated because of the help that comes from this site. What I would suggest is to learn some basic conversation techniques such as deep diving and baiting (the Spellbinding conversation series is useful, although I must say I only use about 20% of what is in it, I have my own style for the rest)... and then practice them on everyone you meet, it doesn't have to be a seduction, you can easily chat with the register attendant at the petrol station (late at night there's usually no-one there and it's intensely boring for him/her so he/she will be a grateful subject for conversation practice) or whatever.

So once you get the basics down and you can sustain a normal conversation for 5 minutes or so, by basically asking them about themselves and getting them to share on what is interesting to them... then you can start having a bit more fun with it, like I remember one time after I finished work I decided to go out approaching and to speak to 10 women and to crack a sexual joke within the first minute of every conversation... naturally, results tanked, because I wasn't good at this, whereas I could have just engaged them in normal conversation for 5 minutes or more using my existing skills, but the point is that I had fun and I got slightly better at adding sexual stuff to the conversation. So your problem might be that you're trying to do too much all at once, think of it as a process of acquiring skills one after the other.

Ray

 

[Bboy100]

Hey guys, sorry about the late reply.
I wanted to make sure to get in the 5 openers with "Ok, fine...you win, you can talk to me" before I posted here again. One thing to note is that this time, I felt a lot less "pumped up" and a lot more calm and natural. The first time, I was super high energy and all over the place. This time, I felt a little more natural. Anyways, here are the results:

Girl 1:
Me: Ok, fine...you win, you can talk to me.
Her: [Laughs]
Her: I'm [Her Name], what's yours?
Me: I'm bboy.
Me: Its really loud in here [For a moment, I couldn't think of anything to say, so this is what I came up with on the spot.]
Her: Yeah, it gets even louder in like, an hour!
Me: Really? So you come here pretty often then?
Her: No I don't!
Me: Yes you do, I already talked to the bartender, the bouncers, everyone, they all say they know you on a first name basis!
Her: [Laughs] Ok, fine I come here all the time!
...I don't remember how exactly the conversation ended. But 2-3 lines of dialogue later she said that it nice to meet me walked away. I actually stopped her while she was walking to have this conversation. So I'm guessing she had somewhere to be.

Girl 2:
Me: Ok, fine...you win, you can talk to me.
Her: [Giggles and stumbles into my arms]
...I'm guessing she was just super drunk. Cause she couldn't even talk.

Girl 3:
Me: Ok fine...you win, you can talk to me.
Her: Noooo! [She walks away from me]
This happened on the dance floor. So I think she thought I was asking her if I wanted to dance?

Girl 4:
Me: Ok fine...you win, you can talk to me.
Her: Hi. [She walks away]

Girl 5:
Me: Ok fine...you win, you can talk to me.
Her: No. I don't want to dance with anyone.
Me: I said talk, not dance. C'mon, step up your game!
Her: Oh. Hi! [ She goes back to dancing with her friends]

I also did a few nonverbal approaches on the dance floor and ended up making out with a girl. As expected though, I couldn't really escalate it any further from there.

Final Thoughts:
One difficulty I had with this opener is that it seems really incongruent to approach a group of people who are chatting amongst each other, interrupt, only to imply that they wanted to talk to me. Because it seems like being that I'm the one who walked up to them, I would be the one wanting to chat.
Also, the venue was too loud, people couldn't really hear me. I'll probably try this opener again somewhere more quiet.


Troy, thank you for the ebook. I've only just started reading it. But it seems like it could be useful.

Richard, those are some interesting thoughts. I definitely hadn't heard of the visualization vs internal dialogue part before. What I've also noticed is that some days I'm far more "in state" then others. Like, this Friday, I was talking to this blonde- she was (physically) absolutely perfect. I felt no anxiety, I was relaxed, and I felt natural. Now, I have a date with her in a few days. Its weird how my mentality/confidence fluctuates so drastically.

There's some good advice here, but my 2 cents is basically that it comes from the experience of approaching hundreds of women and seeing what works and what doesn't. However, your learning process is definitely accelerated because of the help that comes from this site. What I would suggest is to learn some basic conversation techniques such as deep diving and baiting (the Spellbinding conversation series is useful, although I must say I only use about 20% of what is in it, I have my own style for the rest)... and then practice them on everyone you meet, it doesn't have to be a seduction, you can easily chat with the register attendant at the petrol station (late at night there's usually no-one there and it's intensely boring for him/her so he/she will be a grateful subject for conversation practice) or whatever.

Well tbh, its true, I'm sure my conversation skills could use improvement. But, I'm starting to think that its not a lack of conversation skills so much as it is anxiety when it comes to cold approach. Because even with only an introduction to a girl (i.e. we have a mutual friend), my conversation skills skyrocket and I start to behave more naturally. Of course, as we've established at this point, its just a matter of me physiologically getting used to talking to complete strangers. Eventually, I'll establish a feeling of "belonging" in that situation just as I feel now when I'm talking to friends.

 

[Zoro]

There's a lot of good advice here, but I want to give you something short and sweet you can use.

And Richard, if this looks familiar, it's all you baby.

Having a solid process is a must. Richard mentioned on the boards his own process and I thought it was the bees knees. I don't have much experience using it consciously, but when I do I always drink Dos Equis.

Preopen>Banter>deep dive>sexual frame>close.

Not sure if that's exactly how he put it, but that's how I use it. It's a flexible guideline that keeps you on track.

You want her to notice you so she can check you out first. I'm great at startling girls; I can make them jump a mile, and doing this helped me go from sneak attack to smooth operator. That's just one benefit of the pre-open.

Next is the banter, you can ask normal questions, because body language, tone and vibe are what you use to communicate. I will talk to her with a smirk on and checking out the environment around me. It's lighthearted and should feel that way. I love that bit about asking everyone in the place and them knowing her by first name. Perfecto amigo.

Now deep diving feels natural. If you are both enjoying yourself, you're going to want to get to know each other.

The sexual frame starts at the beginning and never ends, but after deep diving I like to turn up the heat. Eye contact, body language, tone, vibe, touch, etc. are the flames to your invisible passion.

Bada bing bada boom, closing from here feels expected. Get her number or her hand and lead her somewhere cozy.