Trying to understand frame (and failing at the moment!)

Orgasmatron

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Aug 13, 2021
Messages
309
Hi guys,

I’m trying to get my head around frame, and I want to make sure I’ve understood things properly before I start reading more about it.

It seems to be the type of theoretical concept that will take a while to fully understand, and then once you get it, a lot of other things will start to make more sense and you’ll begin to see it everywhere.

I think I can see how it works in general social interactions (eg. 2 people debating politics) but I’m struggling to understand it in a man/woman sexual interaction.

This is maybe because I can more easily understand 2 people arguing as I can put myself in the position of the other person with a different political point of view, in a debate but I can’t do that very well with seeing things from the girl’s point of view in a pickup situation.


I don’t think I’ve quite got it yet, but am I on the right track?


Frame

A frame is a lens through which people/things are perceived by others and the image a person projects to others.



Internal frame

Your personal beliefs and experiences and the way they influence your perception of yourself and other people.

For example, I would rather pursue women who are confident, as I believe they will be better in bed and more fun to spend time with than women who are not so confident.

Or

I believe I’m a high-value man, so I deserve to be with high-value women



External Frames

The image you present to the world based on your internal beliefs.

So, if I want to appear friendly, for instance, I would smile a lot. And my reason for doing that would be that I believe that people will like me more if I am friendly and if they like me then I’ll be able to develop relationships with them more effectively.



Frame setting

How the frames of 2 people interact with one another and affect how their interaction will go.

So, for example - 2 people with very strong opposing pollical beliefs will have see the world very differently through their personal political frames and will likely argue with one another and have an antagonistic relationship as a result

2 guys who support the same football team, and if this is the basis for their interaction with one another, will likely have a friendly relationship, even if they disagree about aspects of their team’s performance

If a guy presents or frames himself in a way that fits with a women’s internal frame of what she values sexually in a guy, then she will fancy him and consider him as a potential sexual partner.

However if he presents himself in a way that doesn’t do that, then she might view him as a potential friend, if he meets her internal frame for a platonic friend (maybe he’s fun to be around but not sexy), or might be totally turned off by him, if he doesn’t meet her internal frame for having the qualities she demands for any interaction to take place (eg. he has really bad personal hygiene and stinks)


Frame battle

When 2 frames don’t align with each other then they compete until one dominates (not sure I’ve got this right) or the interaction is cut short (eg. one person just decides to walk away)


Reframing

When 2 frames don’t align then the frame for the interaction will need to be reset in some way in order for the interaction to becomes ‘successful’.

So, if the girl in the example above, just sees me as a potential friend and not a sexual partner, then I have to change how she perceives me, so she does see me as a sexual partner, which then changes the context of our interaction away from a girl talking to a potential friend, and into girl talking to a potential sexual partner.


Frame control

When someone tries to control how the other person perceives them and the context of their interaction.

In the example I’ve been using. She thinks I’m a potential friend, but I change her perception of me (somehow, I don’t know how though) so that she changes her opinion and thinks of me in a sexual way now. So, if I did that, I’d be controlling her frame and the frame of our interaction (I think)

Okay, I don’t think I’ve got this correct though, I think it’s more complicated than that and my description is a bit vague because I don’t get it yet.


Arrrgh. My brain hurts. I see how this is hugely important and I need to understand it.

Any help is much appreciated,

Cheers
 

topcat

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
698
I honestly don't think you need to understand frame right now. I didn't understand the utility of frame until i started dating an extremely strong-willed and potentially domineering woman. It forced me to maintain frame and it wasn't until I went back and read that i realized what frame was.

As a beginner I'd advise not to bog yourself down in more theory than is useful.

Go out and talk to women. Try and fail. Adjust and repeat. Understanding frame won't help you walk out the door and open a girl, nor ask her home. You'll realize frame in the process.
 

Orgasmatron

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Aug 13, 2021
Messages
309
I honestly don't think you need to understand frame right now. I didn't understand the utility of frame until i started dating an extremely strong-willed and potentially domineering woman. It forced me to maintain frame and it wasn't until I went back and read that i realized what frame was.

As a beginner I'd advise not to bog yourself down in more theory than is useful.

Go out and talk to women. Try and fail. Adjust and repeat. Understanding frame won't help you walk out the door and open a girl, nor ask her home. You'll realize frame in the process.
Thanks dude,

Good point, as always.

I'm off the streets for a week or two cuz I had a bit of an accident at the weekend, so trying to do some reading.

I'll stick to more practical stuff for now then.

Cheers TC
 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
1,539
Yeah it's important to have frame (probably the most important thing in seduction and with women in general), but understanding the concept in detail is not all that necessary to start getting success.

In practical terms, what is necessary to know about frame is that it is a man's job to lead a woman, particularly in the direction of the bedroom. To do this, he must manage her perceptions of many things:

- Himself - what kind of man he is, what he wants from life and women, his knowledge and capability with women, people, problems etc
- Herself - what kind of woman she really is, what she wants deep down that is hard to get that he might be able to give her, etc
- What it means exactly to live a fulfilling life - fundamental to establishing sex as a part of that, but can begin with adventure, self-discovery etc
- Sex - what constitutes good or bad sexual experiences, basically
- Many other things that influence her willingness to go with him.

How he manages this (like every good leader) is to manage frame. Frame is at its core about a man stating his reality and impressing it upon other people. A reality in which the things he wants others to do provide them with success and satisfaction, and the reasons for doing so not only make sense but are powerfully compelling to those people he wishes to move.

It also means actively combating opposing frames, by painting them as this or that (something bad or nonsensical or against something the person has established as important to them).

Someone who understands and manages frame well avoids combativeness in other people because he creates a reality in which the thing that he wants them to do is already what they wanted to do. To this end, frame is best established not by making statements or declarations of want, but by painting a picture, asking questions that imply certain answers, discovering that which the other person values greatly, and bringing it closer in association with something else, until the person, like a spark between two points that are brought close together, makes the jump of their own accord.

And it also involves establishing himself as a pivotal part of that reality, someone who can 'show the way' through it, a guide toward the meeting of the person and what they desire.

This is frame, it is useful for all kinds of things, and seduction in particular.
 

Bismarck

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
570
The frame concept was invented by Canadian sociologist Erving Goffman in his 1956 book The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life.

If you want to get to the bottom of the concept, start there.

Then you might be able to apply it to seduction, but like topcat said, don't make the mistake of putting the cart before the horse.
 

Orgasmatron

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Aug 13, 2021
Messages
309
Thanks dude,

Good point, as always.

I'm off the streets for a week or two cuz I had a bit of an accident at the weekend, so trying to do some reading.

I'll stick to more practical stuff for now then.

Cheers TC
Well, I say I'm off the streets for a bit but I was in the park near my home when I posted that and I couldn't resist approaching a very cute wee blonde. She mentioned a partner a few minutes in so I might have been barking up the wrong tree. Nice girl, had a good laugh together.

Maybe no trips into the city centre but I'll do some DG in my local area I think. I can't stop myself, I think I've been bitten by the bug
 

Orgasmatron

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Aug 13, 2021
Messages
309
The sociological concept of frame was invented by Canadian sociologist Erving Goffman in his 1956 book The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life.

If you want to get to the bottom of the concept, start there.

Then you might be able to apply it to seduction, but like topcat said, don't make the mistake of putting the cart before the horse.
Thanks man,

I get what you guys are saying, better to just go out and get some practical experience rather than worry about the theory stuff.

I've got daygame articles to read, so that'll probably be more useful for me atm.

Cheers
 

Orgasmatron

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Aug 13, 2021
Messages
309
Yeah it's important to have frame (probably the most important thing in seduction and with women in general), but understanding the concept in detail is not all that necessary to start getting success.

In practical terms, what is necessary to know about frame is that it is a man's job to lead a woman, particularly in the direction of the bedroom. To do this, he must manage her perceptions of many things:

- Himself - what kind of man he is, what he wants from life and women, his knowledge and capability with women, people, problems etc
- Herself - what kind of woman she really is, what she wants deep down that is hard to get that he might be able to give her, etc
- What it means exactly to live a fulfilling life - fundamental to establishing sex as a part of that, but can begin with adventure, self-discovery etc
- Sex - what constitutes good or bad sexual experiences, basically
- Many other things that influence her willingness to go with him.

How he manages this (like every good leader) is to manage frame. Frame is at its core about a man stating his reality and impressing it upon other people. A reality in which the things he wants others to do provide them with success and satisfaction, and the reasons for doing so not only make sense but are powerfully compelling to those people he wishes to move.

It also means actively combating opposing frames, by painting them as this or that (something bad or nonsensical or against something the person has established as important to them).

Someone who understands and manages frame well avoids combativeness in other people because he creates a reality in which the thing that he wants them to do is already what they wanted to do. To this end, frame is best established not by making statements or declarations of want, but by painting a picture, asking questions that imply certain answers, discovering that which the other person values greatly, and bringing it closer in association with something else, until the person, like a spark between two points that are brought close together, makes the jump of their own accord.

And it also involves establishing himself as a pivotal part of that reality, someone who can 'show the way' through it, a guide toward the meeting of the person and what they desire.

This is frame, it is useful for all kinds of things, and seduction in particular.

Brilliant,

Thanks for explaining what to concentrate on.

I'll just need to get more practical experience.

I'm aware that is a thing now, and I have a vague idea about what it is, so I'm sure after a while I'll get it.

Cheers
 

Derek da man

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jan 24, 2020
Messages
285
Reading your original post I think you have a good undersatanding of frames. In a simple form do you present the glass as half full, half empty, half gone, half yet to enjoy, etc. It's really how you "present" something. Reframing something is disagreeing with how it was presented with a different view of the same situation or facts. Your example with politics is a fairly good comparison.

As previously said you need to get out and experience situations. Then, as you are already doing, you will reflect on what was said and how it was presented to give a particular image. When you have reflected on it you will come up with different ways to present the same things that would give a more condusive response to a successfull seduction. You will also start to see how girls present/frame things that you know are not quite as they may portray them. You won't be able to get this from studying text books - only by real life situations and relecting on them. Once you start this process you will start to see these frames while actually in the conversations. To start with you will struggle to chat and find ways to re-frame at the same time but this will happen. But it takes time, reflection and practice. Hence the advice above. This process of reflection, re-framing and changing behaviour is a basic form of "Congnative Behaviour Therapy" that psycologists use - they just like to use big fancy words to describe it.

If you read a lot of th articles on GC there are a lot of really practical ways of reframing things to help seduction.

Once of my favourites I've picked up from here is when a girl asks me if I have a girlfriend my answer is along the lines of "I'm not really boyfriend material as I'm out dancing most nights with different ladies" (I dance ballroom, salsa and a few other things - hence always being out). The frame sets the following:
-I'm in demand with other women so I must have social value
-I'm not available to meet at her beck and call
-I'm probably not going to be a long term boyfriend even if she does get a date which forms a challenge and that I'm not desprate
-Girls like guys that can dance as they have confidence and rhythm/movement

As you can see a short sentence can set up a fairly detailed frame that is highly condusive to a seduction.
 

Orgasmatron

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Aug 13, 2021
Messages
309
Reading your original post I think you have a good undersatanding of frames. In a simple form do you present the glass as half full, half empty, half gone, half yet to enjoy, etc. It's really how you "present" something. Reframing something is disagreeing with how it was presented with a different view of the same situation or facts. Your example with politics is a fairly good comparison.

As previously said you need to get out and experience situations. Then, as you are already doing, you will reflect on what was said and how it was presented to give a particular image. When you have reflected on it you will come up with different ways to present the same things that would give a more condusive response to a successfull seduction. You will also start to see how girls present/frame things that you know are not quite as they may portray them. You won't be able to get this from studying text books - only by real life situations and relecting on them. Once you start this process you will start to see these frames while actually in the conversations. To start with you will struggle to chat and find ways to re-frame at the same time but this will happen. But it takes time, reflection and practice. Hence the advice above. This process of reflection, re-framing and changing behaviour is a basic form of "Congnative Behaviour Therapy" that psycologists use - they just like to use big fancy words to describe it.

If you read a lot of th articles on GC there are a lot of really practical ways of reframing things to help seduction.

Once of my favourites I've picked up from here is when a girl asks me if I have a girlfriend my answer is along the lines of "I'm not really boyfriend material as I'm out dancing most nights with different ladies" (I dance ballroom, salsa and a few other things - hence always being out). The frame sets the following:
-I'm in demand with other women so I must have social value
-I'm not available to meet at her beck and call
-I'm probably not going to be a long term boyfriend even if she does get a date which forms a challenge and that I'm not desprate
-Girls like guys that can dance as they have confidence and rhythm/movement

As you can see a short sentence can set up a fairly detailed frame that is highly condusive to a seduction.
That's excellent,

Yes, I see how you can say a lot by saying very little. I like that.

Everything about you creates your frame, I suppose.

So, for example, you could say you were rich, or in fact be rich, but if you are wearing jeans and a t-shirt, then that doesn't fit in with the frame that you created through your clothing. But you could reframe that by saying you were an internet startup millionaire, and those guys don't like suits and ties, so then it fits.

That helps a lot!

Brilliant, thanks!
 
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