What Is Your Biggest Struggle With Non-monogamous Relationships?

[ray_zorse]

Problem for me is keeping things at arms length, I inevitably want to do bf-like stuff such as sightseeing, restaurant dates etc... not to mention meeting each others' friends etc... so even if it is verbally agreed we are not exclusive, I still feel like I'm cheating when I see other women, cos I know they all regard me as their bf in reality. Trouble is I just don't think I could be satisfied with the sterility of just meet->fuck and I don't see how she would be happy with that longer term either. The recent article on casual relationships was good in that it assumed we guys might want something in the middle.

Another issue is about waiting for her to bring up relationship talk, this feels like tricking her into bed since my oresumption is if she sleeps with me she's assuming relationship will follow (except in nightgame I guess). OK OK I know that sounds white knight ish, but I often date girls from conservative cultures. Anyway, be good for u to address this.

Ray

 

[Raqimus]

I don't feel like maintaining a connection after I fuck a girl. After I fuck once I stop caring. I just care less about their emotions when compared to mine and I don't feel that desire towards em.

 

[ray_zorse]

What happens when I fail to keep things at arms length... well we start seeing each other too often, like 2-3 times a week instead of once, so the quality of time spent is not as good because not as much anticipation has built up... and some of the dates aren't conducive to sex, like for instance with my current gf if we don't see each other for a few days and we're both working or whatever, then we usually meet a Starbucks for a mid morning coffee or similar... this is not a problem for me because I enjoy her company, but I feel it could be a bit of a slippery slope, once she starts getting used to dates that don't include sex she could easily get more demanding and expect me to accompany her to bullshit like shopping, or she could start to withhold sex. This actually happened the other day, we got home around 9pm ish and I was a bit slow putting the kids to bed and in the meantime she decided she was leaving, whereas my plan had been that we'd spend private time together once the kids were in bed. I feel that this is partly due to my not setting a strong frame that hangout=sex, and partly due to us hanging out too much. To make matters worse she then tried to start a relationship talk over text later that night, so I ignored her until the following evening and then called her by voice, she toned things down slightly after that, so I think the ignoring helped a bit. I basically managed to bypass the relationship talk for now, but the gist of it was "can I trust you?" which I think is going towards/along the lines of "are we exclusive now?". Bleh. I have decided to be really strong, I will tell her that I am continuing to date other women, and that I really enjoy being with her as well, so I'm happy to keep things how they are, but I can't agree to exclusivity, I understand if her needs are different and the last thing I'd want to do is hurt her, but it's my duty to myself to put my needs foremost.
Ray

 

[Franco]

Ray,

It sounds a bit like you're wanting to have your cake and eat it too. Essentially, "I want to have the experience of a girlfriend and make a girl think I'm being/going to be her boyfriend but I don't actually want to be her boyfriend and I want to fuck other girls."

Unfortunately, this is also how you hurt women, so you're treading on murky waters here. If a girl is having relationship talks with you it's because she thinks that's where things are going and you aren't making it clear to her what you want (which is sex, conversation, or both). This is why it's important to categorize the women you hang out with early on and then make sure you're handling them in ways that communicate that relationship type with them.

If you only want sex with a girl, then you see her once a week or less, and you see her only for sex/conversation. If you want a girl to talk and have coffee with, then you don't have sex with this girl and you occasionally take her out to coffee shops or go on shopping trips and talk with her. If you want the girlfriend-experience, then you become exclusive with a girl and you get all of the above, but you cut out your options of having sex with other women.

You can have a girlfriend and possibly get away with sleeping with strangers you never see again and that she'll never find out about, but that's a grey area that can lead to some heavy heartbreak if your girlfriend finds out, so I highly suggest against it unless you know exactly what you're doing (and even then it's ill-advised).

- Franco

 

[mindful]

My biggest thing is my own emotional investment. With girls I'm really attractive to and into, I just naturally think about them more and get too many thoughts in my head like; I hope she likes me, wonder what she's doing, will she text me today, can't wait to see her again, is she seeing other dudes, etc.

All along, I recognize that this is not good to think about. And it doesn't mean i communicate more with them, but it's still going on within my head. I follow girl chase standards but that still doesn't help my emotional stability.

I think a lot of it stems from insecurity and even jealousy to some extent. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately. I defibtely get anxiety over these types of situations too. I'm naturally an anxious person that lives in my head more times than not.

Also, when I speak of this, it is with girls that I've seen multiple times. It doesn't happen if things fizzle out quickly. But the more I see a girl and more we talk about and reveal, I just feel a bond. This didn't happen with a previous girl I was seeing casual. That lasted around 3 months and I never had those feelings. However, she was more average looking and I sort of knew she wasn't seeing other guys, so my conscious was clear.

 

[ray_zorse]

Yes, Franco, you're right.

The problem is that I categorized her as FWB early on and made this clear, but I was weak and did not stick to it, I was aware of the advice in articles on this topic but was wondering if there might be a middle ground, since I am fairly independent minded and generally like to make my own mistakes in order to find out what works for me.

Anyway, I did not mind her meeting some of my uni friends that I was not that close with anyway, and it was good she met my kids because she loves kids and it dramatically increased my available dating window (in fact I was on the fence about her and had NEXTed on your advice due to slow progress, so didn't want to waste my legitimate dating window)... but the way she met my family and thus became my "official" gf was kind of accidental, e.g. she came down to beach for day and we headed out, but one of my sons had a temper tantrum lasting an hour so we ended up going back to the house, where she met my mum... following occasion I arranged to have kids attend a family event they did not want to miss, while I took my gf out to have dinner (this occurred because I double booked myself due to an ambiguity in interpreting court orders about how things restart after school holidays)... but she got carsick and couldn't eat, so we ended up chilling at my parents place and attending the family event... similar when she attended a pickup at kids school, I had planned to drive her back to city after we went to the Vietnamese market for her to buy ingredients for her to cook us dinner, but we were a little late so I didn't.

I could have been much more strict and never agreed to any of the above setups in the first place, it was because I was trying to juggle and get the most out of my schedule that she ever came into the proximity of my family in the first place, but I guess also I didn't mind because I was sort of wavering about offering exclusivity anyway, then changing my mind, this is what I mean by being weak and not sticking to it. Basically, pleaser behaviour, since I knew she desired to get closer.

If it wasn't for my other relationship I would probably go exclusive, but the problem is with my other gf we connect a lot better sexually, she also desires long term commitment but does not live in my city, so we see each other for short intense bursts of several days which also carries a risk of getting too close. She has repeatedly said she doesn't want to be "just a sex friend" and I've pointed out that we do tourism and activities together, restaurant dates etc, and we regularly talk on phone for long periods, so it's again a "have your cake and eat it too" situation. If she lived here in Melbourne I would certainly consider going exclusive with her, she's much more compliant and hence easier to hang out with, and we have much better sex since I can lead properly and hence can introduce more kinky sex etc. My current official gf is hung up about sex which makes it hard to make the decision to be exclusive, although she is a terrific girl in nearly all respects. The reasons in this paragraph are why I have let things drag on inconclusively.

Hope this gives a picture of what can happen when you fail to keep girls at arm's length. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bitching, I got myself into this situation knowing the risks and I will get myself out of it, minimizing hurt to those involved if I possibly can. I just need to take some decisions.

Ray

Edit: Drexel it's turned into an unspoken "don't ask don't tell" with official gf, cos I have been a bit frightened of hastening the end by unwisely bringing stuff up... and a "sexual openness" with long distance gf, although latter has said if I'm sleeping with other women to not tell, but I haven't complied with this. Obviously I never give any details about how many women I'm sleeping with, when I meet with them or what is the quality of my relationship with each, since this would convey a lack of discretion and be unattractive and validation-seeking, but unfortunately cos I have not been mysterious enough and often talk on the phone about my day with either girl, I have to twist and turn a bit (avoid certain topics at certain times and so on) which bothers me, and is another reason not to communicate too often, so that they cannot peg your routine or get a handle on how you spend your time, or they might notice inconsistencies when you go on a date or get a new fwb etc. Best to remain mysterious, but it's hard to do when you're trying to connect regularly and reward her with your communication. Anyway your summary of openness vs. don't ask is a good one.

 

[Franco]

Drexel,

Just to clarify, when I say a "nonmonogamous relationship," I mean "emotionally exclusive but sexually inclusive." Or "emotionally bonded but not sexually exclusive." A middle ground between a noncommitted FWB and a totally exclusive LTR, which does not include lying or dishonesty but rather one of two things:

1. Open communication about other partners (some girls prefer this) or
2. Don't ask, don't tell (others prefer this).

It doesn't make a huge difference to me personally which style of non-monogamous relationship a woman prefers, so I usually ask or figure it out from what kind of person she appears to be. I am not ever advocating lying or dishonesty with my posts and advice.

Correct. And that middle ground is obtainable with a certain level of honesty. And like you mentioned at the end of your post, you usually ask or figure it out (from the beginning I assume) what type of person she is so that you can enact the style that suits her best.

Ray,

The problem is that I categorized her as FWB early on and made this clear, but I was weak and did not stick to it, I was aware of the advice in articles on this topic but was wondering if there might be a middle ground, since I am fairly independent minded and generally like to make my own mistakes in order to find out what works for me.

This is totally fine. I often advocate for a lot of guys (when they're learning) to cross those borders themselves so they can see the results first-hand. Chase has already been in this area before several times, and I haven't intentionally encountered it, although my experiences have shown me enough indicators that a middle-ground (where the girl does girlfriend-like activities with you on a regular basis but is okay with not being your girlfriend) isn't really attainable here to any long-term degree that doesn't involve someone getting hurt. So I avoid it.

As long as you're aware that it's not working out as planned and you don't continue to do it, then that's fine. Everyone has to learn on their own at some point. =)

I could have been much more strict and never agreed to any of the above setups in the first place, it was because I was trying to juggle and get the most out of my schedule that she ever came into the proximity of my family in the first place, but I guess also I didn't mind because I was sort of wavering about offering exclusivity anyway, then changing my mind, this is what I mean by being weak and not sticking to it. Basically, pleaser behaviour, since I knew she desired to get closer.

Yeah, these are the kinds of things you'll do when you're still learning. Since you're still unsure how to categorize women well early on and properly guide them to what you want, you tend to take a step back on things and waver on your decisions, and this usually causes you to step on a mine.

Again, it's all part of the learning the process. I see that you're aware of it though, so that's the important thing.

If it wasn't for my other relationship I would probably go exclusive, but the problem is with my other gf we connect a lot better sexually, she also desires long term commitment but does not live in my city, so we see each other for short intense bursts of several days which also carries a risk of getting too close. She has repeatedly said she doesn't want to be "just a sex friend" and I've pointed out that we do tourism and activities together, restaurant dates etc, and we tegularly talk on phone for long periods, so it's again a "have your cake and eat it too" situation. If she lived here in Melbourne I would certainly consider going exclusive with her, she's much more compliant and hence easier to hang out with, and we have much better sex since I can lead properly and hence can introduce more kinky sex etc.

This sounds like a situation where Drexel's advice would be helpful. If you had exercised some restraint and strict rules in how you handled this other girl, you could have worked this into probably a longer-term sexual relationship where she isn't desiring exclusivity (or maybe at least not for a long while). The problem right now is that your actions are never matching your words (i.e. "I don't want exclusivity/I can't give you exclusivity, but let's go do tourism and activities together, restaurant dates, and talk on the phone for long hours.") Basically, you're having difficulty preventing yourself from investing too much time in these women and giving them false hope.

If you're willing to be exclusive with women, then you need to be better at recognizing these types of things from the get-go: preferably by the first meet-up (whether it ended in sex or not). If you're really unsure about her after the first date, then it's best to keep things at "arms length" at first until you can make that decision -- remember, it's much easier to convert a FWB or casual relationship into a long-term one after awhile, but it's near impossible to go "backwards" with a girl who thinks you're taking her to the boyfriend land of exclusivity.

Hope this gives a picture of what can happen when you fail to keep girls at arm's length. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bitching, I got myself into this situation knowing the risks and I will get myself out of it, minimizing hurt to those involved if I possibly can. I just need to take some decisions.

Yep, once you get pretty good at categorizing women quickly (and knowing at what capacity you want them around), you tend to be able to run things much more smoothly. Once you can do that, Drexel's advice on managing these non-monogamous relationships will be extremely helpful.

- Franco

 

[Grand Pooba]

Full disclosure:
I am seeing three different women in non-monogamous relationships.
One I see two to three times a week; we are the most open with each other about our dating lives, and she's cool with this trajectory even though she likes me quite a bit. We talk about our relationships, dates, and sex with others. This is fairly easy to manage, it's been going on for five months.
The other two I see every 8-10 days or so, and I've only said that I'm seeing other people in passing and have left it out of every conversation after that. These have been going on for about four months.

My biggest stuggles and frustrations:

#1: TIME MANAGEMENT!
This is probably the hardest to do right now. I'm seeing these girls for five days (or nights/mornings) of my week, and they usually sleep over. While this means lots and lots of sex, which is great, I feel like I have very little time for anything else I want to do in my week. I look forward to the "days off" when I'm not seeing them. The irony is remarkable.

How do you guys do it?
I usually let girls sleep over because they live far, and I get to have sex with them in the morning too.

#2: Hair Everywhere
Not sure if anything can be done about this, but there's long hair everywhere and cleaning it after every visit is a hassle. The laundry bills are also expensive.

#3: Girls Leaving Things at Your Place
This has been happening a lot lately, which girls forgetting things like toothbrushes, makeup remover, or a pair of heels, or a sock. Usually these are left in very visible areas. I have to search my apartment and clear everything before a new girl comes over.

#4: "Romantic services"
How do you reject things like walking to/from the subway when she comes over, or holding hands in public, or her trying to do things outside of the apartment like grabbing lunch or dinner, etc? One of my FWBs is giving me trouble and drama with me not doing this. I don't know how to explain to her that she can't expect this from me.

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

GP,

Did you consider introducing any of these girls to each other? I'd say a fun experiment would be

1. With your favorite girl, start heading into the trajectory of a loving, but still open relationship. So yeah, lovey dovey stuff, but since you have clear and open communication, you can never lose an argument because of how honest you are, so if drama starts coming, you can snuff it out quickly until of course it gets to the point where you need to escalate the paradigm or end it.

2. With the two other girls, introduce them to each other. The earlier you do this, the better, since they haven't gotten too attached yet. You mention that one of the girls, who I assume ISN'T your favorite, is starting to get mad that you won't get romantic with her in public - if you're willing to lose her for this experiment, try and introduce her to the other less significant FWB and then reduce your relationship count to two: your open but loving relationship, and then your three-way relationship with the other two girls.

The three-way relationship would make Problem #2 and #3 disappear almost completely, so long as you keep your main relationship secret. The time management might be lessened, too, since you can mostly see the two girls at the same time and cut down on the days that you're occupied.

I haven't had concrete experience with the three-way relationship, but I've run an open relationship for a fun amount of time, with an ex-girlfriend nevertheless. So if I can pull it off with a girl whom I have stupidly complicated precedent with, then doing Route 1 with the girl that you've already established clear communication with; it sounds like it'd work and be fun. The second option, well that's new territory for me.

- Anatty

 

[Grand Pooba]

GP,

Did you consider introducing any of these girls to each other? I'd say a fun experiment would be

1. With your favorite girl, start heading into the trajectory of a loving, but still open relationship. So yeah, lovey dovey stuff, but since you have clear and open communication, you can never lose an argument because of how honest you are, so if drama starts coming, you can snuff it out quickly until of course it gets to the point where you need to escalate the paradigm or end it.

2. With the two other girls, introduce them to each other. The earlier you do this, the better, since they haven't gotten too attached yet. You mention that one of the girls, who I assume ISN'T your favorite, is starting to get mad that you won't get romantic with her in public - if you're willing to lose her for this experiment, try and introduce her to the other less significant FWB and then reduce your relationship count to two: your open but loving relationship, and then your three-way relationship with the other two girls.

The three-way relationship would make Problem #2 and #3 disappear almost completely, so long as you keep your main relationship secret. The time management might be lessened, too, since you can mostly see the two girls at the same time and cut down on the days that you're occupied.

I haven't had concrete experience with the three-way relationship, but I've run an open relationship for a fun amount of time, with an ex-girlfriend nevertheless. So if I can pull it off with a girl whom I have stupidly complicated precedent with, then doing Route 1 with the girl that you've already established clear communication with; it sounds like it'd work and be fun. The second option, well that's new territory for me.

- Anatty

Anatman,

On #1 - I feel like I already have this with that girl. We're both very open and I've so far managed all of her issues by maintaining a very strong and dominant frame in our relationship. She's a submissive type, so this isn't too difficult. The other two, however, are dominants - they would love to Beta-ize a guy and make them their bitch. Again, strong frame here has been key, albeit with some drama when I don't comply.

Incidentally, I've also noticed that even though they're pissed off initially, when I see them again and meet them for an encounter, they are even more turned on and horny after I deny their requests. Funny stuff.

On #2 - Interesting idea. Very high risk move you're proposing - I feel like it could either go extremely well, or cause lots of crazy drama for me and ruin the stability with the two true FWBs. I've discussed threesomes with Girl 1, and no dice...she isn't down.

However, it would be extremely convenient to see two girls at once timewise.

Thank you!

 

[ray_zorse]

Guys I might be hijacking the thread a little bit, but one thing I've been interested in lately is taking a slave, I would train her in various things like domestic duties, position training (based on command words she has to assume various postures either for my sexual pleasure or just for the sake of discipline), I would beat her if she failed to comply according to my requirements etc, and I would also control every aspect of her life remotely, such as when she is allowed to eat or go to the toilet, setting her tasks while I'm at work such as going to the gym to perform a given programme, or shopping for certain clothes or foods etc, or researching a topic and writing an essay to get her general knowledge up to my standards and so on. I've seen master/slave relationships documented on tumblr and most of the slaves seem to be fat and unattractive, which makes sense b/c the desire to be enslaved is obviously down to a shame issue and so is the desire to overeat and engage in other self sabotaging behaviours... but I could maybe do some good by putting my slave on a diet and taking other hard decisions out of her hands. Who knows, I might create a life partner

In this context I considered that one way to humiliate my slave and help to create the appropriate feeling of powerlessness might be to force her to watch me have sex with my regular gf, I could either have her in an assisting role such as handing me the lube, applying condom etc when I need it, or perhaps giving me a handjob to get me hard for the other girl if I feel she's earned the privilege, or if I want to humiliate her more I could put her nearby and force her to look straight ahead and forbid her from looking at the sex act taking place (eye contact discipline). I could also have her masturbate while my gf and I watch, to get us in the mood (kind of like watching a porno before sex). This might also help teach her to orgasm on command (a subgoal).

I don't know how feasible all this is, but I do know it won't happen unless I try to make it happen. My previous attempts at making kinky sex happen were surprisingly trouble-free.

Anyway, this might be another way to implement Anatman's suggestion, although I note GP's comment that both are pretty feisty, but perhaps one of them could be convinced to play the slave role just for the duration of the session? Hmm.

Ray