What Seduction Is Really About [PART 1]

[PaulieFlyn10]

That's a great way to approach the topic. Build a logical concept and then consider how different personality traits can best use it.

I think there's also an element of intuition vs technical understanding involved. I've always been somewhat intuitive in the way that my mind works - I'll characteristically draw on a lot of analogies to things I've experienced to form a concept of something, rather than trying to figure out its technical details or its objective nature. I feel as if I understand something when I recognize a pattern within it that I've seen across many different domains, even if I would struggle to explain that pattern to anyone.

Thanks Will

Yeah, there's an element of intuition that works here.

Of course that would be hard to teach lol... so we'll just let the field do it for them

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

One thing about attainability with regards to this model (as this is THE model I follow and have yet to run into attainability issues since following it):

In this model we need to be super attentive to a woman’s state and compliance level, rewarding any ounce of compliance we see and ‘punishing’ genuine lack of it proportionally.

A woman who requires you to be more attainable is either a woman with high compliance in the outset (and this needs her compliance to be rewarded immediately) or a woman who is “sheepish” or nervous who is likely to comply on ask anyway at which you simply need to make sure you reward her.

In cases of initial low attainability ATTENTIVENESS and RESPONSIVENESS address this within this model.

High attainability results in low compliance on her part which means we ADDRESS IT with “PUNISHMENT” - typically less attention or closeness, until she invests or chases.

Low attainability results in high compliance on outset, to which we REWARD it, immediately and aggressively to prevent autorejection.

In short attainability is automatically addressed within this model. There’s no need to complicate it by tacking on additional material.

Yup I agree. Reward vs punishment as regards attention/listening is a nice mindset to have that fits into the model

Punishing lack of compliance is great addition to the topic which I forgot to mention

 

[WierdDough]

Thanks for the kind words.

Well, unless you're like some of my Christian friends that have sworn "no sex till marriage" I don't see why sex shouldn't be the main objective


I mean if you want a romantic sexual relationship then it's a no brainer. You can make the argument that your objective should be having fun, getting to know her etc... BUT when you tell guys this... it tends to make guys lose their seductive killer instinct where they tend to forget that sex is one of the main results in the context of a romantic sexual relationship with a woman


I have two ways I deal with objections primarily: 1) humorize it or 2) pace and lead.

Which is based on my personality AND how the objection is brought up

For example, with pull objections... she might say "we're not having sex at your place" my go to objection is "I have zero expectations. I just like spending time with you"


---Sometimes I get safety objections like "I don't know you" "what if you're a kidnapper" These objections most times tend to come in a half serious-half kidding way. Almost like she doesn't want to be too serious and risk pissing me off but she's somewhat interested

I either humorize by exaggerating: "yeah I'll do that and keep you in my house so you can cook for me all year" (I avoid saying kidnap and avoid any sexual joke like "we'll make babies")

Or I humorize by teasing her: "if I do that I don't want you finishing my best food"

Or I humorize by flipping it on her.

Or I just humorize by showing her how absurd things are: so in response to "what if you're a kidnapper " it would be "then put you where? You can't fit in my pocket... I'll get the caught the next day"


Another objection I get is purity frame. Where a girl is trying to act or say "she's not that kind of girl" with this I just tell her everyone is depending on the right man and right situation


Another objection I got for when girls felt I was a player or not genuine.
I handle in either of two ways: one, I tell her "you're a smart girl... if a part of you didn't feel I was being genuine... you won't be here"

The other way is I tell a story of how I turned down a girl I wasn't feeling it with by removing my attention from her.

Frames and reframes is a good way to handle objections. This are my preferred ways

You can find out more on the site

This is a good example of why I don´t have sex as my main goal in seduction. Objections like these litterally never come up in my seductions. Women can smell your intentions from a mile away, even if you were to be indirect about it. Same way you can instantly tell when someone is trying to sell you something, it just brings out a special kind of defence in people. Resistance like this only exists when there is something you are being influenced to do. It is triggered by your outcome orientation. Being more process oriented isn´t simply about trying to more in the now and having fun in the moment. It´s about making the process your outcome. I could elaborate further, and I will at a later time, but just know that with some effort, and a change in your mindset, you won´t have to deal with objections like these.

Also, food for thought. Do you think that sex is the only benefit you get from seduction?

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

This is a good example of why I don´t have sex as my main goal in seduction. Objections like these litterally never come up in my seductions. Women can smell your intentions from a mile away, even if you were to be indirect about it. Same way you can instantly tell when someone is trying to sell you something, it just brings out a special kind of defence in people. Resistance like this only exists when there is something you are being influenced to do. It is triggered by your outcome orientation. Being more process oriented isn´t simply about trying to more in the now and having fun in the moment. It´s about making the process your outcome. I could elaborate further, and I will at a later time, but just know that with some effort, and a change in your mindset, you won´t have to deal with objections like these.

Also, food for thought. Do you think that sex is the only benefit you get from seduction?

If you've never had an objection like "we're not having sex at your place" or "I just met you" (safety objection) or "I'm not that kind of girl" then you might as well be the greatest seducer alive...

Literally everyone I know In this community or in real life have experienced objections like that in some form. But since you've never had objections like that you can write a thread on how you did that. We're all curious

Also, regardless of how process oriented you are as long as you escalating on a girl... she is going to sense at some level that you're interested sexually (and this not a bad thing)

A girl having an idea or inclination that sex is on the table is NOT a bad thing. Because at the end of the day you fasten up the sex process.

Sex is not the only benefit you get from seduction... it can make you a better conversationalist, a better listener. Heck, you can even learn a thing or two from women you seduce...

But your idea of making the process your outcome is just mental gymnastics.

Alex talked about the pitfalls of outcome independence here


Chase talked about creating a balance here


So the idea is there's nothing wrong with being outcome dependent as long as you balance it out with being process oriented as well.

The issue with what you said is that you're proposing a philosophical view point. And while relevant, i just consider it a mindset thing.

The goal of this logical progression model is to give guys a frame work and to tell guys what the goal really is. Which is sex. Yes, you can have fun or be process oriented (as a mindset) or even as tactic or skill but... ULTIMATELY it's still to have a romantic sexual relationship with her

This whole idea of "it's not about sex bro. Just focus on the process" is just sales man mental gymnastics

I'm fine dealing with those objections once in a while because I can handle them. After all, we all deal with objections in different forms

Now, of course, benefits are many in seduction but this thread wasn't created to deliberate on philosophical tangents like that

Why?

Because the most objectively measurable metric or result is sex.

Read this to understand better

 

[WierdDough]

If you've never had an objection like "we're not having sex at your place" or "I just met you" (safety objection) or "I'm not that kind of girl" then you might as well be the greatest seducer alive...

Literally everyone I know In this community or in real life have experienced objections like that in some form. But since you've never had objections like that you can write a thread on how you did that. We're all curious

Also, regardless of how process oriented you are as long as you escalating on a girl... she is going to sense at some level that you're interested sexually (and this not a bad thing)

A girl having an idea or inclination that sex is on the table is NOT a bad thing. Because at the end of the day you fasten up the sex process.

Sex is not the only benefit you get from seduction... it can make you a better conversationalist, a better listener. Heck, you can even learn a thing or two from women you seduce...

But your idea of making the process your outcome is just mental gymnastics.

Alex talked about the pitfalls of outcome independence here


Chase talked about creating a balance here


So the idea is there's nothing wrong with being outcome dependent as long as you balance it out with being process oriented as well.

The issue with what you said is that you're proposing a philosophical view point. And while relevant, i just consider it a mindset thing.

The goal of this logical progression model is to give guys a frame work and to tell guys what the goal really is. Which is sex. Yes, you can have fun or be process oriented (as a mindset) or even as tactic or skill but... ULTIMATELY it's still to have a romantic sexual relationship with her

This whole idea of "it's not about sex bro. Just focus on the process" is just sales man mental gymnastics

I'm fine dealing with those objections once in a while because I can handle them. After all, we all deal with objections in different forms

Now, of course, benefits are many in seduction but this thread wasn't created to deliberate on philosophical tangents like that

Why?

Because the most objectively measurable metric or result is sex.

Read this to understand better

Well, thank you for the hostility, ridicule and vast misrepresentation. I was under the impression that we were having a nice discussion, my bad. Is this how you respond to objections?

My main point was that attempts at influence will naturally be met with a certain kind of resistance, and by not approaching sex as something you influence a woman into doing, that resistance will vastly decrease.

Best regards, the greatest seducer alive.

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Well, thank you for the hostility, ridicule and vast misrepresentation. I was under the impression that we were having a nice discussion, my bad. Is this how you respond to objections?

My main point was that attempts at influence will naturally be met with a certain kind of resistance, and by not approaching sex as something you influence a woman into doing, that resistance will vastly decrease.

Best regards, the greatest seducer alive.

My bad if I seemed hostile. Not my intention

The thing is I understand where you were coming from. And I agree to an extent

However, I purposely avoided mindset and philosophical angles because I know from being in the community for a while... it will just turn to an endless debate of view points and derail the thread. Which I'm not interested doing here.

But I'm open to having that discussion if you create another thread and explain your stance better.

Best wishes

 

[Will_V]

This is a good example of why I don´t have sex as my main goal in seduction. Objections like these litterally never come up in my seductions. Women can smell your intentions from a mile away, even if you were to be indirect about it. Same way you can instantly tell when someone is trying to sell you something, it just brings out a special kind of defence in people. Resistance like this only exists when there is something you are being influenced to do. It is triggered by your outcome orientation. Being more process oriented isn´t simply about trying to more in the now and having fun in the moment. It´s about making the process your outcome. I could elaborate further, and I will at a later time, but just know that with some effort, and a change in your mindset, you won´t have to deal with objections like these.

Also, food for thought. Do you think that sex is the only benefit you get from seduction?

Something you learn very quickly after joining a forum like this is that there are many different types of people with very different modes of operating in the world.

Some guys (like me, and maybe you as well) dislike processes and logic when it comes to women, and gravitate toward a mode of intuition, self expression, and the desire to create a shared experience with a girl. For example, I never, ever go up to a girl knowing what I'm going to say, I can't stand delivering a line. I have to figure it out when I'm there, or it doesn't seem real to me and it's hard for me to know what to do next. The only thing I'm interested in really is principles, not techniques or tactics. Seduction has to be mostly a creative and spontaneous experience for it to be satisfying to me.

Other guys are completely different - they are lost without a process, they need mechanical steps to follow, and a logical understanding of everything. Do this, then do that. If she does this, employ that tactic. Lots of terminology and flowcharts. That's completely fine, it's just a different way of doing things.

Most guys are probably somewhere in the middle.

I think it's best to do what @PaulieFlyn10 is doing and starting off with a fairly logical concept of seduction, because then everyone can extract the principles and translate it into their own personal seduction mode. Whereas if you start off with explaining it in terms of your own philosophy, guys who don't resonate at all with that philosophy will be completely lost as to what you're talking about.

 

[WierdDough]

Something you learn very quickly after joining a forum like this is that there are many different types of people with very different modes of operating in the world.

Some guys (like me, and maybe you as well) dislike processes and logic when it comes to women, and gravitate toward a mode of intuition, self expression, and the desire to create a shared experience with a girl. For example, I never, ever go up to a girl knowing what I'm going to say, I can't stand delivering a line. I have to figure it out when I'm there, or it doesn't seem real to me and it's hard for me to know what to do next. The only thing I'm interested in really is principles, not techniques or tactics. Seduction has to be mostly a creative and spontaneous experience for it to be satisfying to me.

Other guys are completely different - they are lost without a process, they need mechanical steps to follow, and a logical understanding of everything. Do this, then do that. If she does this, employ that tactic. Lots of terminology and flowcharts. That's completely fine, it's just a different way of doing things.

Most guys are probably somewhere in the middle.

I think it's best to do what @PaulieFlyn10 is doing and starting off with a fairly logical concept of seduction, because then everyone can extract the principles and translate it into their own personal seduction mode. Whereas if you start off with explaining it in terms of your own philosophy, guys who don't resonate at all with that philosophy will be completely lost as to what you're talking about.

I see your point, and I mostly agree. But where I differ in opinion is that seduction can´t be treated solely on a technical note. Rather it needs to be treated as a collection of guidelines, step by steps, strategies, techniques, mindsets, principles, understandings, and so on. Anything less than that lacks nuance. The point I was contesting wasn´t a strictly technical point, it was more on the side of principles and understandings, which can also have a great impact on your overall game. If I were to contest a technical point in this thread, it would be that of punishing a lack of response to a compliance request. Reinforcements have proven to be vastly superior to punishments, especially negative punishments. But no need to discuss it further here, at this point I seem to be derailing the thread a bit much.

Best regards, WD

 

[Will_V]

I see your point, and I mostly agree. But where I differ in opinion is that seduction can´t be treated solely on a technical note. Rather it needs to be treated as a collection of guidelines, step by steps, strategies, techniques, mindsets, principles, understandings, and so on. Anything less than that lacks nuance.

That's exactly what all the many long articles on the Girls Chase site provide.

I think (and this is my perception) that the point of this thread is to come up with a sort of distilled reminder of the absolute fundamentals of seduction, so that guys who are already consuming a lot of information and maybe get stuck in the weeds can sort of reorient themselves a bit.

If it were to include all the nuances, it would have to be as long as all the articles put together, which would be the biggest forum post in history.

If I were to contest a technical point in this thread, it would be that of punishing a lack of response to a compliance request. Reinforcements have proven to be vastly superior to punishments, especially negative punishments. But no need to discuss it further here, at this point I seem to be derailing the thread a bit much.

I think that's a good point that's worth discussing, maybe you can share some examples of what would be times when not to punish a girl for lack of compliance?

One that pops into my mind is when she refuses something while looking confused, uncomfortable, or tense - you'll want to find out first what the problem is.

Whereas if a girl is being a brat and playing hard to get, 'punishing' her might be exactly what she's hoping for, and make her feel more turned on.

 

[James Cruse]

Well, thank you for the hostility, ridicule and vast misrepresentation. I was under the impression that we were having a nice discussion, my bad. Is this how you respond to objections?

My main point was that attempts at influence will naturally be met with a certain kind of resistance, and by not approaching sex as something you influence a woman into doing, that resistance will vastly decrease.

Best regards, the greatest seducer alive.

Don’t worry mate - he gets really defensive when questioned or given an alternative perspective and asked for examples, he does this alot.

I asked him a few questions above for clarity and examples on his post - he ignored them & dismissed them as ‘derailment of the thread’ when I was asking questions about what he wrote in the post and thread itself.