What's the big resistance point for guys to overcome before getting into PUA these days?

[Chase]

So @POB and I were talking about how red pill has sucked up a lot of the oxygen seduction took up back in the day.

I noted that there's been a three point transition in mentalities between the pre- and post-PUA mentalities I've seen:

1. PRE-PUA: 1990s/2000s "Just Be Yourself": the big mentality among guys was that "most girls are good girls" and "most girls want a relationship before they will put out" and that learning seduction was dumb because "that stuff doesn't work, girls aren't just going to hook up with you because you spit some game at them, they want a relationship."
   
   
2. PUA: 2005-2015 "Learn the Game": seduction took off and snaked through the culture. Not every guy took it seriously but every guy heard of it and most guys tried out a few techniques at least. Guys started getting the message that "actually, girls WILL hook up with you, if you present yourself the right way, and say and do the right stuff."
   
   
3. POST-PUA: 2015 to present "Get Ripped, Rich, and Alpha": most guys tried some PUA, halfheartedly, and failed, then looked around and noticed a lot of the guys who SEEMED to be doing better than them (also without much in the way of genuine PUA skills) had one or more of being rich, ripped, or a tough guy frame. At the same time they watched all these influencer social media models blow up, many of whom were posing with rich, ripped, or alpha-type guys for social media likes. Then on top of that you had dating apps, which most girls don't even use, but the girls who do use them date around a lot and go for guys 3 points higher than them in looks, or else guys who are rich or ripped. Most of these guys probably weren't actually doing a lot better than regular guys were (other than on dating apps) but the perception that they were killing it was there. So the mindset shifted to the present day red pill "girls are all raging sluts, they are hooking up with dudes constantly, but ONLY the guys who are Chads, which means rich, ripped, or an alpha male mindset." In the red pill guy's mind PUA is just dumb tricks, the same as the "just be yourself" guy's position, the difference being that to the red pill guy PUA doesn't work not because you're not offering an LTR (which was the "just be yourself" guy's position) but because you're not rich, ripped, and in possession of an alpha male mindset.

It was really fun in the early days of PUA, because guys were going around saying, "Pssh, girls won't just HOOK UP with you! They need a relationship first! Be yourself harder and you'll get there!" and you could just show them you were hooking up with girls, tell the guy, "Look dude -- I JUST met this girl and now she's in my bed. Believe it," and guys would be blown away, have a mindset shift (not all of them, but many of them), and be going, "Holy crap, how do I learn this?"

But now with this red pill stuff, guys have it in their heads that "girls are all raging sluts" (even though the average number of sex partners is falling and women alongside men are having less sex than they've had in decades!), and if you talk to some red pill guy who's not getting laid and say, "Look dude -- I JUST met this girl and now she's in my bed. Believe it," he is just responding to you with, "Yeah, girls are all raging sluts. You're probably rich or ripped or already have an alpha male mentality. Or maybe you are just dating down in looks and hooking up with ugly girls." It's like every red pill guy comes with an immunity to PUA now -- one that is much stronger than "just be yourself" guys had on average. There were always hardcore "just be yourselfers", but a lot of them were at the point where they were realizing this approach wasn't working, and they were open to something new.

I suppose in a way it is natural for these things to go in cycles, and for people to collectively build immunity to whatever the previous iteration was.

I mean, honestly, all these are hard to pull off:

• It is hard to hang around in multiple girls' friend zones for years hoping to get a rewarding relationship.
• It is hard to get good enough at PUA that you are able to consistently lay girls you actually like.
• It is hard to pack on a ton of muscle, build a bunch of wealth, and develop some big tough guy mindset.

Objectively option #2 up there is the best option with women. For choosing just one of these to put a bunch of time into, #2 is the best use of time, if the goal is "women."

All these mentalities revolve around getting women. I thought for a while red pill was a move away from focusing on women... because that is what the red pill guys will say: "Don't focus on women." "Women aren't worth it." "There are no decent women left." Etc. But look at the content. Everything constantly revolves around women, they talk about women non-stop, and there is a continual promise that "once you are rich, ripped, and alpha male enough, the women will just flow."

Of course, anyone who knows enough guys who are rich, ripped, and have an alpha male mindset knows that these things on their own do not get you laid. You can have them or not have them and still be an incel. The new term 'gymcel' has caught on fire, describing dudes who are buff but don't get laid.

So what is the major resistance point these days?

I think it'd be interesting talking about what you'd need to do to flip a guy from a jaded "all women are sluts, but only for the Chad who's rich, ripped, and has an alpha male mentality" mindset to one where he is thinking about PUA, getting excited, and going, "Holy crap, maybe I could do this... just learn the right things to say and do with women and I can get girls I want even without having to spend years getting rich, ripped, or building an alpha male mentality."

The stuff I'm doing in some of the new GC sales materials is talking about this red pill rich, ripped, and alpha male mindset stuff head on and saying look, these guys get this stuff, after setting aside women for YEARS to work on it, hoping it'll pay off in the end, and it DOESN'T... because if you want to get women, you need to focus on WOMEN -- DUH! I think this is increasingly going to be my angle: "You're not gonna get women by focusing on all these other distractions and setting women aside. That's just dumb."

But it'd be interesting to get other guys' thoughts on this.

Have you seen anything that makes red pill guys go, "Hey wait a minute... maybe *I* could do PUA! I don't HAVE to spend years slaving away to build all this stuff hoping the girls will come! I can start talking to girls TODAY and doing things differently, and some of it will work"?

It seems like if anything the flow is in the opposite direction... guys try PUA, don't get immediate results, hear a red pill guru, and conclude "Aha. It's because I'm not ripped and rich with an alpha male mindset. I need to stop wasting my time getting rejected by girls and go get ripped and rich with an alpha male mindset first. Then I'll be on Easy Street."

Maybe there's just no way to fight the zeitgeist and it simply has to run its course.

Seems like these things go in 10-15 year cycles. I think we're probably about 8 years into this red pill cycle at this point, and starting to see some fatigue. Nobody was talking about 'gymcels' a couple years ago, for instance (though the term apparently dates back to 2014 or earlier. I never really heard it very much until 2021 or so).

Probably still going to take a few more years before we reach a critical mass of guys going, "I got rich, ripped, and an alpha male mindset... but I still didn't get laid. What am I missing?" and the culture opens up to some other viewpoint taking hold.

But perhaps if we are taking more aim directly at this ridiculous red pill ethos of "you just have to work on yourself for years, then women will come to you, you'll see. Don't even worry about women until then" we can start resonating more with a message that pops this zeitgeist we're in.

Anyway, a bit stream of consciousness. But I'd be curious any thoughts other guys have on breaking "the red pill spell", at least when it comes to getting women.

Chase

 

[Rakehell]

Probably how likely they are to quickly succeed on the front end.

-What their social skills are like
-How well off they are fundamentally

But I'd be curious any thoughts other guys have on breaking "the red pill spell", at least when it comes to getting women.

I had a friend who was deeply mired in red pill propaganda before we started hanging out. Was big on K Samuels and now Tate.

Then we got to hanging out and he’d bring up some of their talking points and in less words I’d say something like “man that stuffs trash”, he’d push back and i’d be like “okay”.

Then we’d hang and he’d see the responses from girls I got despite not adhering to his “im the prize” type of mental model, and little by little he’d try picking my brain.

Got to the point where he dropped the whole alpha male thing and could see him trying to do things my way more and more.

Still watches Tate and red pill stuff but is more open minded, less extremist on the whole girl thing.

So yeah seeing is believing probably plays a part. The guy was also equipped to succeed on the front end more rapidly, but he shot himself in the foot alot with his philosophy and punished girls for being girls alot of the time.

If the guy quickly gets return on investment from actually liking girls then i’ve seen em change. Not sure how it’d play out if he put his ego aside and still didn’t get any results.

 

[Chase]

@Rakehell,

That's interesting. Red pill devotee hangs out with PUA, realizes PUA works better.

Could be fun to do some kind of PUA vs. red pill comparison video: "Let's put a PUA and an inveterate red piller in a bar and see how they do! Will the red pill guy's muscles and money get him girls, or will the broke skinny PUA come out on top?"

If the guy quickly gets return on investment from actually liking girls then i’ve seen em change. Not sure how it’d play out if he put his ego aside and still didn’t get any results.

Yeah, well that's most anything new you try, right?

If you don't see returns quickly it's pretty hard to stick with it.

The challenge with PUA is getting guys to lower their sights enough so they aren't going out with a mindset of, "Okay. I'm going to talk to 3 girls. If this doesn't turn into sex or a girlfriend I'm giving up!" and instead are going out with one of, "Okay, I'm going to talk to 10 girls this week. Let's see if I can have a decent, flirtatious conversation with at least two of them," etc.

So maybe cautioning realistic expectations for beginners is extra key to avoid them running back to red pill going, "Nope, it didn't work! I did my 3 approaches and still no girlfriend! I wasn't alpha male enough, that must be the reason why! Back to Tate!"

Chase

 

[Rakehell]

That's interesting. Red pill devotee hangs out with PUA, realizes PUA works better.

Could be fun to do some kind of PUA vs. red pill comparison video: "Let's put a PUA and an inveterate red piller in a bar and see how they do! Will the red pill guy's muscles and money get him girls, or will the broke skinny PUA come out on top?"

Yup! Then you’ll have little frankensteins running around trying to teach you things you’re pretty sure you told them about weeks ago, and competing with you killing the vibe.

Stopped hanging with my friend for a while Lol

So maybe cautioning realistic expectations for beginners is extra key to avoid them running back to red pill going, "Nope, it didn't work! I did my 3 approaches and still no girlfriend! I wasn't alpha male enough, that must be the reason why! Back to Tate!"

Know you were half joking but probably spot on.

 

[TomInHo]

Interesting observations Chase, but what I think it really comes down to is mother nature.

Men want unlimited sexual access but the truth is only a select few will ever experience it. And one thing i've noticed is that every-time something comes up to increase that access, mother nature finds a way to insert obstacles for men to distract them from whats really important

It's like the ultimate shit test

And like @Rakehell I have noticed something similar when interacting with Redpillers. It's kind of ironic because I'm rich, jacked, handsome and have status (on social media). So last year I curated a small group of my audience that was interested in women and started shooting the shit with them for fun

I shared stories of women I had been with when I wasn't "Leveled Up or ALPHA". And these seemed to make the guys learn that, yes those things help but are not the end all be all when it comes to getting laid

A lot of the guys had very bad social programming from Redpill but when I started talking about seduction stuff surprisingly a lot of them softened their Redpill stances and actually started getting results (P in V)

But during my time interacting with the guys I also learned some very valuable things that stop a lot guys from getting real results with women and the main ones where

1. Lack of Effort - These morons would only talk to 5 women in an entire year and wonder why they didn't have a harem of 20 bitches. You think I'm joking but it's insane how many men really think like this

2. Lack of Critical Thinking - If they were able to put in a lot of numbers/effort, I also noticed they will make the same mistakes over and over again. They will hit the same exact sticking point and make zero attempts to change their approach and just plow and hope for the best. Even if I gave them a suggestion their ego was too invested on "How things should be" rather than "How things really are"

3. Lack Of Sexual Confidence - So some guys were cool and had decent social skills but for some odd reason couldn't imagine that women would love to have sex with them just for the fun of it. It's almost like they felt that they had to "earn" the pussy. So because of this they would be too scared to show the women their sexual side and hence get women constantly friend-zoning them or using them for status/resources

4. Lack of understanding of Sexual Cues - This is similar to the above but because of their world view, they were absolutely blind to when women were throwing signals at them to move things forward. It's almost as if they expected the women to make things "too obvious that they wanted sex". This is actually a huge one because when I started sharing the cues women gave and breaking them down a lot of the guys actually started getting laid here and there

5. The Girlfriend Slump - This one is kind of funny. Because all these guys will claim they want to be players and smash tons of pussy but once they find a girl that's decent they wife her up and check out the system. Not that there's anything entirely wrong with it per say but I don't really think that the majority of men really want to be playboys. It may seem good for their ego but the reality is most men are happy with just one woman

So to sum it up I've come to the conclusion that being a playboy is the statistical anomaly and the truth is most men will never give a real f*ck about seduction for the long term

But who cares really? Just means more pussy for me

 

[Kvothe]

For me, I have a lot of friends in the start up scene. It seems like a bunch of them picked up girlfriends/wives, and then are now focusing all their energy into their companies. Lots of funding, even in the current economy-but I think I lucked out a lot in terms of my friend group. So those ones mostly just seem happy in their relationships and actually just prefer to be building shit.

Among the ones who aren't building stuff, there's an interesting split. Some have read PU, and of those I've discussed it with, I've tried to get them to come out and do it more deliberately-and I just can not. They inevitably go back on to dating apps, snag one girl eventually, and then tell me that I need to use the apps... The ones that don't have success on the apps-something just always pulls their attention away, and they don't have the discipline to work at PU as a skill. They'll need to go out with friends to a bar and get drunk before doing stuff.

I've managed to convince some friends to do some situational approaches on trains and stuff, and some of my friends even got dates/girlfriends from that. And yet, I still can't convince them. They state that they dislike one night stands.

Even with some people I know who are more in the PU scene, they don't have as much interest in the technicals of it. For them, they've broken past AA, but now just treat it like a numbers game, and so the approach -> lay rate doesn't matter as much.

All the people mentioned above (including myself) are well off in terms of money/jobs-so I do wonder a bit how much people are just "satisfied", and so don't need to push to get by in life. They seem to lack "hunger" for this kind of thing.

A part of me is quite happy that PU has gone far out of the mainstream again, since it means the competition is less.

 

[ulrich]

Perhaps the big resistance is convenience.

Back in the 90’s-2,000’s guys didn’t have much options to delude themselves from their lack of romantic success.
Back then, being unable to get a girlfriend would have caused you tremendous discomfort…

Nowadays guys have dating apps that help them get dates every once in a blue moon, Instagram that lets you follow and comment in hot girls lives, onlyfans that let you get girls mentions and nudes for a price…

And add to that all the tolerance mentality that has been pushed into their brains since they were young which gives them another dimension to fail without failing… “oh, maybe I’m just gay or asexual”.

Basically, now you have tons of options to fool yourself.

And well… learning social skills sounds like a hassle when you can just be your weird lazy self, click a couple of buttons and get a date with a chubby uncalibrated Tinder girl in less than an hour (which probably wont end in sex anyway).

Failure just doesn’t hurt the same, I guess.



Perhaps the solution is to target a niche:
- Highly successful guys who can’t land a girl
- Digital nomads that want to get laid in their travels
- Divorced guys that are back to the dating scene after 10+ years of marriage

Or just play along with the paradigms that younger guys have in their heads:
- “Hey dude, you’re getting jacked to get girls through Instagram… wanna see something cool?”
- “Hey bro, you’re spending two hours a day in Tinder? Wanna meet some cooler girls?”

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Very nice observations Chase, and you are right. We are currently in the red pill wave and it's only going to get more red and black pill from here on.

When i first came back into the manosphere after a few years from anything pick up material (i was busy doing trial and error) red pill was one of the first things I dived into. The message sounds attractive. I read all the red pill bibles as you would call it: rollo tomassi, richard cooper, tate, Kevin samuels, fresh and fit, AMS. Basically anything that had red pill i dived into it. Podcasts, books, articles. And joined various communities and met up with many members

Now there are similarities between PUA and red pill. And almost every content with red pill is about women. Most guys join the red pill because of women. The teachings are usually about women. The gurus are often trying to display their prowess, knowledge or skills with women.

However there are 3 main teachings with red pill that makes the message attractive to men:

- "It's not your fault, women are just manipulative evil, selfish people so you must protect yourself"

This is probably the biggest talking point and attraction factor with red pill. From memes about men getting wrecked in divorces to confessions about women manipulating and using women. Humans generally like putting blame on others and red pill puts whatever heart break men go through on "women's evil nature". Popular quotes like: "she's not yours it's just your turn" "hypergamy" "she doesn't care about you but her feelings"

They take this and push it too far making women the enemy.

Then give ways men can protect themselves: "Develop yourself so you can protect yourself and choose from different women" problem is most men never become that high value man they speak of


- "if you get rich, jacked or high value women will come for you"

This is the next talking point. And is preached as a solution to number 1. And many men believe this. The stress of approaching and facing rejection is too much for majority to handle

So the idea of building the castle and women will come sounds more appealing.



- "don't be a simp and she will respect you. And if she respects you, she will want to sleep with you"

What an ego boost right there

this is probably where pua and red pill have similarities. Simp here means a nice guy. And red pill teaches not to be a simp for women and to hold your frame.

If you ask me, this is the biggest reason why the red pill became popular. Because you can apply it in your life and see results


For example when guys "hold frame" or stop being simpy they notice a positive change in the way women react to them. So they think to themselves "wow this red pill thing is actually true" then take the entire thing with all the extremism, false narratives as truth

So for red pillers if not being a simped is working then everything else about the red pill must be true. And they hold on to it tight. You're going to have a hard time convincing most guys to be pua. The red pill just feels less stressful without the heart aches they suffered in the past from women

Some even see pua as blue pill. LOL. I also have to note how much they hate cold approach. To them it's "why approach when she can come to me"

Most would just have to learn the hard way.


Solution

A better angle for sales materials alongside going against red pill would be to look at those teachings and show why pua provides a better alternative

Or just go for the smaller segment of the manosphere still attracted to pua. Like its own sub niche

 

[TomInHo]

For me, I have a lot of friends in the start up scene. It seems like a bunch of them picked up girlfriends/wives, and then are now focusing all their energy into their companies. Lots of funding, even in the current economy-but I think I lucked out a lot in terms of my friend group. So those ones mostly just seem happy in their relationships and actually just prefer to be building shit.

That's normal. If you notice that's one of the main messages behind Redpill... "Find a woman that buys into your frame and supports your purpose". It's ironic really because Redpill markets itself as the "Truth" and "Counter Culture" but its really the same shit as "Get a white picket fence, Wife with low body count and 2 kids" lol

Among the ones who aren't building stuff, there's an interesting split. Some have read PU, and of those I've discussed it with, I've tried to get them to come out and do it more deliberately-and I just can not. They inevitably go back on to dating apps, snag one girl eventually, and then tell me that I need to use the apps... The ones that don't have success on the apps-something just always pulls their attention away, and they don't have the discipline to work at PU as a skill. They'll need to go out with friends to a bar and get drunk before doing stuff.

Pointless trying to convince someone to want something they don't want. And also there's something really annoying about the PU community and it its hatred of Apps. IMO it's fucking retarded

Aren't you trying to get LAID???

Why does it matter where you get it from???

if you have tool that can speed up that process why wouldn't you use it???

Just because you can pickup girls from a bar or the street doesn't make you a better seducer. Just means your good at that outlet for sourcing girls

Proof in point is a lot of guys here will talk shit on apps but when you tell them to use it they bomb out and get poor results or only bang ugly chicks. They then have massive cope and say dumb shit like "You only get low quality girls on apps" just lol

Guys need to chill out and realize there are multiple ways of getting girls... Day, Night, Social, Online. No one is really better than the other and if you enjoy your way of doing it and it fits your lifestyle keep doing and quit the posturing

I've managed to convince some friends to do some situational approaches on trains and stuff, and some of my friends even got dates/girlfriends from that. And yet, I still can't convince them. They state that they dislike one night stands.

To be fair, guys that are obsessed with only ONS tend to have deeper issues. They are fun sure but they will never be as fulfilling as a relationship with a dope chick.

Also a relationship with a dope chick cannot replicate the rush you get from an ONS and new partners. It's neither nor and think men in general tend to think too black and white when it comes to sex and relationships

Even with some people I know who are more in the PU scene, they don't have as much interest in the technicals of it. For them, they've broken past AA, but now just treat it like a numbers game, and so the approach -> lay rate doesn't matter as much.

I see no problem with that either. Just because you do something doesn't mean you desire to be exceptional at the skill. They just don't value sex as much

All the people mentioned above (including myself) are well off in terms of money/jobs-so I do wonder a bit how much people are just "satisfied", and so don't need to push to get by in life. They seem to lack "hunger" for this kind of thing.

They may lack hunger in PU but I bet you some of those guys have insane hunger in another part of their lives that you may be lacking in. There is only so many hours in a day one can devote to their ambitions. And there are also so many things in life a man can devote himself to that will bring him joy

At the end it all comes down to priorities, preferences and lifestyle choice

 

[ulrich]

2. Lack of Critical Thinking - If they were able to put in a lot of numbers/effort, I also noticed they will make the same mistakes over and over again. They will hit the same exact sticking point and make zero attempts to change their approach and just plow and hope for the best. Even if I gave them a suggestion their ego was too invested on "How things should be" rather than "How things really are"

This is one of the most recurring things I am noticing in people post COVID 19

It seems to me that everybody is now overloaded with stimulus and it’s getting harder and harder to get people interested in truly mastering something.
There seems to be no mental bandwidth for it anymore.

 

[raiden]

I really think that societal factors and the way that the 'dating market' and male-female relations are nowadays, plus higher stress, higher cost of living, lower sex drive, is causing the lack of interest in PUA. I don't think that red pill has much to do with it at all. The majority of guys know that red pill is nonsense. Only a minority, a small number, actually believe it. Yet there is a very large portion of men who just won't or can't do PUA. If my relative sizes are correct, red pill doesn't explain the lack of interest in PUA.

 

[MuST0BtA1NSkR1Lla]

Ive been fixing my house up recently, Mid Century Modern style furniture which I went out refinished reupholstered etc…etc…. Been trying to fiqure out how to do a dinner party scene as well as a house party scene. But I find it very very difficult to put together.

I also have a liquor cart, yet I’ve never in my ten years of PUA have ever utilized it. Perhaps an article about what sort of liquors you should have sitting around the house for when you bring a girl home? And then some good common drink recipes to know off hand?

Everything constantly revolves around women, they talk about women non-stop, and there is a continual promise that "once you are rich, ripped, and alpha male enough, the women will just flow."

I’ve been living with a 9/10 hot chick room mate. The reason they want these women to flow is that staying and taking care of a chick properly is a lot of work for very little reward. It’s the type of thing only a father or a husband would want to do.

But perhaps if we are taking more aim directly at this ridiculous red pill ethos of "you just have to work on yourself for years, then women will come to you, you'll see. Don't even worry about women until then" we can start resonating more with a message that pops this zeitgeist we're in.

Or you could go on incels.is and get some inspiration from there. I check in every once in awhile to see what’s going on but besides 4chan and Reddit it is the most populous forum on the internet.

 

[Spyce D]

Some of the young men are more interested in politics than getting chicks .
More or less a branch of red pill .

And interestingly , redpill ideology is akin to status climbing thinking in the conservative societies / former colonies . Like , don't focus on chicks . Focus on your career (A.K.A focus on your studies) , once you career is set (A.K.A you have a job) , we will get you married or You can marry a girl of your liking but not without our permission .

Then , you have all these Indian guys whining on the forums about not being able to get blondes . lol

Funny thing is in my country pickup is a recent phenomena (6-7 years) but due to internet all three phase that @Chase has mentioned can be seen here , lol.

Well, we young men have far more alternatives than our previous generations .

Smartphones , dating apps , porn , VR porn!!! , constant supply of news .

And it's slowly becoming true for cities in other nations too like the west , except some cultural differences .

Some pick up guys because of their desire to become more mainstream have shifted their focus from teaching pick up to general personality / Fitness (e.g. MorePlatesMoreDates)

Today is an era of attention economy and young guys are the most affected .

I had lot of life problems till last year due to being hooked to screens .

Speaking of the devil , It's more comfortable for an average men to watch sexy chicks on internet than actually do something about his loneliness .

It's just easier to blame than to take action .

 

[POB]

To be fair, my initial point was: "how can we get new blood into this forum"
And so far the guy's responses is way better than what I expected!
Some quick pointers:

Perhaps the big resistance is convenience.

Back in the 90’s-2,000’s guys didn’t have much options to delude themselves from their lack of romantic success.
Back then, being unable to get a girlfriend would have caused you tremendous discomfort…

Nowadays guys have dating apps that help them get dates every once in a blue moon, Instagram that lets you follow and comment in hot girls lives, onlyfans that let you get girls mentions and nudes for a price…

For sure!
Back them, either you stuck your neck in the rain, or you got home to jerk off to playboy or penthouse lol.
There was no other option really.

And add to that all the tolerance mentality that has been pushed into their brains since they were young which gives them another dimension to fail without failing… “oh, maybe I’m just gay or asexual”.

Basically, now you have tons of options to fool yourself.

This is the gist of the cope mentality.
Like: "I have 30 chicks talking to me on tinder, so why should I risk getting rejected by the hot cashier that works 5 minutes from my place?"
Also today the illusion of success with women is stronger than ever!
"Oh, I'm talking to this hottie online" is beating "she sucked my cock for 10 straight minutes".
Really insane!

Or just play along with the paradigms that younger guys have in their heads:
- “Hey dude, you’re getting jacked to get girls through Instagram… wanna see something cool?”
- “Hey bro, you’re spending two hours a day in Tinder? Wanna meet some cooler girls?”

I think this ^^^ would resonate a lot better with the young guns who are really serious about getting pussy.

- "It's not your fault, women are just manipulative evil, selfish people so you must protect yourself"
- "if you get rich, jacked or high value women will come for you"
- "don't be a simp and she will respect you. And if she respects you, she will want to sleep with you"

@Chase and I talked about those points, but what caught my attention was this:

What an ego boost right there

this is probably where pua and red pill have similarities. Simp here means a nice guy. And red pill teaches not to be a simp for women and to hold your frame.

If you ask me, this is the biggest reason why the red pill became popular. Because you can apply it in your life and see results

For example when guys "hold frame" or stop being simpy they notice a positive change in the way women react to them. So they think to themselves "wow this red pill thing is actually true" then take the entire thing with all the extremism, false narratives as truth

So for red pillers if not being a simped is working then everything else about the red pill must be true. And they hold on to it tight. You're going to have a hard time convincing most guys to be pua. The red pill just feels less stressful without the heart aches they suffered in the past from women

Never thought of that, but it's so true!!!
The initial "don't simp" works wonders to boost confidence, but we all know it's a very basic and short lived strategy to improve your results with women. Maybe the initial 5% or so, if that much.

Pointless trying to convince someone to want something they don't want. And also there's something really annoying about the PU community and it its hatred of Apps. IMO it's fucking retarded

Aren't you trying to get LAID???

Why does it matter where you get it from???

if you have tool that can speed up that process why wouldn't you use it???

Just because you can pickup girls from a bar or the street doesn't make you a better seducer. Just means your good at that outlet for sourcing girls
Proof in point is a lot of guys here will talk shit on apps but when you tell them to use it they bomb out and get poor results or only bang ugly chicks. They then have massive cope and say dumb shit like "You only get low quality girls on apps" just lol

Guys need to chill out and realize there are multiple ways of getting girls... Day, Night, Social, Online. No one is really better than the other and if you enjoy your way of doing it and it fits your lifestyle keep doing and quit the posturing

There's a bit of caveat here @TomInHo
Most guys get meh results online not because they suck, but because online requires:
- the most outlandish beautiful pictures you can get of yourself. Not every guy is photogenic. In fact, most guys, even with a great outfit, great lightning, an amazing photographer, perfect set up etc, will continue to look regular.
- Tight text game. Frankly, I know few guys who know how to text.

Also older guys like myself, especially if they are looking for younger chicks, need A LOT of patience to land a nice match, plus a lot more patience to put her in front of you. Hence the rise in "sugar baby game".

You are a young model-looking man in your prime. You will probably crush apps no matter what. However, most skilled (or even intermediate) guys will have faster and better results doing day or night game, where they can really show a personality and run proper game. Apps to them should just be supplemental, at best.

They may lack hunger in PU but I bet you some of those guys have insane hunger in another part of their lives that you may be lacking in. There is only so many hours in a day one can devote to their ambitions. And there are also so many things in life a man can devote himself to that will bring him joy

At the end it all comes down to priorities, preferences and lifestyle choice

This is not the problem.
The problem is using it as an excuse to cope and then spitting BS about how to get women, while you yourself is not getting decent results.
This is basically the gist of every prominent red pill guru these days.

I really think that societal factors and the way that the 'dating market' and male-female relations are nowadays, plus higher stress, higher cost of living, lower sex drive, is causing the lack of interest in PUA.

This is a factor, for sure.

I don't think that red pill has much to do with it at all. The majority of guys know that red pill is nonsense. Only a minority, a small number, actually believe it.

I'm not sure about it.
It doesn't explain why it is so popular these days.
And if it's popular, it means guys believe it and are applying it's teachings (or at least some of it).

Yet there is a very large portion of men who just won't or can't do PUA. If my relative sizes are correct, red pill doesn't explain the lack of interest in PUA.

Mmmm, maybe it does.
As Chase explained, it's been competing for a long time with PU for attention on "how to get women".
And it's winning by a wide margin.


.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

From a practical stand point, Red Pill content is inherently more algorithm friendly. It makes people angry, and anger is good for engagement.

It should be renamed into the Rage Pill.

The last PUA viral thing I saw was that Todd V Central Park clip - which I think he filmed to show what NOT to do.

That said, there's some backlash to RP content - https://www.reddit.com/r/exredpill/

One could "datamine" that sub to find some good themes and make content to grab new guys.

 

[Skills]

From a practical stand point, Red Pill content is inherently more algorithm friendly. It makes people angry, and anger is good for engagement.

It should be renamed into the Rage Pill.

The last PUA viral thing I saw was that Todd V Central Park clip - which I think he filmed to show what NOT to do.

That said, there's some backlash to RP content - https://www.reddit.com/r/exredpill/

One could "datamine" that sub to find some good themes and make content to grab new guys.

Great point is funny they teach advance beta game....

Seduction community was fotm cause guys were trying to get laid using wealth, muscle, careers etc...did not work so they starting copy what naturals do that work and field testing.... red pill is back to our oringins of advance beta game with a mix of nra... but yea good for clicks... some of them have water down seduction advice like fresh and fit, but if are experience ypu can catch a lot wholes...

Is like a weird modern version of puahate tbh...a bunch of drifters....they already started imploding...

 

[Gladiator]

There are many reasons Redpill is more appealing than PU:

Better marketing: Redpill is easy to market. For incels, it's appealing cos it's easy to blame the girl as evil than put in the hardwork to learn game.

Hard to learn: Redpill is not hard to learn. You just have to adopt a mindset to hate women. Working out in the gym is a lot easier than thinking analytically. When I've spoken about seduction with some of my friends, it amazes me how they think about dating, having a tunnel vision and thinking in black and white.

PU is not black and white, you can't just do X every time to get Y. One has to be fluid and adopt quickly and navigate smoothly, think on their feet, still sticking to a blueprint of the process.

Hard to teach: There are not many good teachers to teach pickup/seduction. It's an art and not science. It's hard to teach an art than a science. I've been in this scene for nearly 5 years and I've seen only a handful of coaches who are really good at teaching this stuff. They maybe good in pickup but they don't know to teach.

As I mentioned earlier, it's an art and teaching an art needs someone to have empathy and intuition. Coaches need to be passionate about teaching it more than for money. Those are very rare qualities to find in people, let alone coach them. Only guys I've come across who are good at teaching this stuff are, Mystery (people forget he was the one who put a strong foundation to what everybody is teaching now), Tom Torero (R.I.P my man, I learnt a lot from him beyond pickup), James Marshall from TNL, Chase Amante, Richard Karea. (You guys' writing oozes passion). There are many other guys who are good as well on this forum but I'm talking only about the best here.

Most guys don't know what is PU/Seduction:
When I speak to guys who think they know PU/Seduction, their knowledge doesn't go beyond approaching. Sometimes a few more things here and there but they don't have a process. They freestyle after approaching.

Even for guys who know pickup, sticking to a process is hard. Even though I have a good blue-print, I still fail many times by forgetting part of the process.

PU has a negative connotation:
Most guys don't like the stigma attached to how society views pickup and a pickup artist. They think it's wrong or it's a low-value guy running on the street harassing women.

Tbh, I don't like PU as well. I like seduction. I'm a natural from what my friends call me and I like solving problems. So, seduction is something that I enjoy doing for the stimulation I get from solving it, more than just getting sex. Many times when I know that I got a girl, I lose interest in having sex. Not the case recently tho lol.

Guys are not passionate:
Like I mentioned above, it's far easier to sit and bitch about women than trying to think analytically and solve the problem. If you're not passionate about it, you can't do it.

Guys have other distractions like social media, drinking, drugs, YouTube, video games, porn etc. This gives more dopamine rush than putting effort in learning and seducing.

PU takes time:
Someone already mentioned here, there is a lot of other responsibilities like job, high living costs etc and guys don't have time to spend time in learning PU while they can work some more or do something more that can help financially.


When I speak to guys and realize that they're not really that interested, it makes me feel sad but at the same time makes me happy that I'm a rarity.

 

[raiden]

Here is why I think people aren't getting into it.

1. Men have lower test and are less horny than usual.

2. Having a family is unaffordable for most guys. The guys in category 1 won't care about casual flings but they might want to have a wife and family. But if they can't afford it, they'll just stay single and not bother with PUA.

3. Impossibly difficult. In general, people stay away from challenges. But now, it's certainly tougher, by orders of magnitude, to get a girlfriend than in our fathers' time. Some guys just give up on PUA after 50+ brutal rejections. And in fact, in the PUA communities, the guys who've been doing their weekly approaches every week for 5 years and still only average 1 date per year, but do not give up, are considered laughable.

4. Lack of time. Commuting plus work plus hobbies take a lot of time. If a guy has an active social life, he might just not want 3 hours of approaching in his schedule. Remember that 50 years ago, this wouldn't happen because guys would marry right out of college.

5. Poor fundamentals and no dating prospects. A guy might have awful fundamentals so that the only women he can get are say, too overweight to be attractive to him. He'd prefer then, to not bother.

6. Poor experience with PUA in the past. Bad experience with a scammer dating coach.

7. "screens" tv, media etc show women to be awful and shows them to be very superficial when it comes to men. I'm thinking of dating shows here. Of course, the people who go on these shows don't represent the average person...

8. No "tribe". If all your friends think that PUA is a loser activity, you're less likely to do it.

The least important factor, I'd say, is

9. Alternative ideologies such as the pills or incel and alternative pastimes such as gaming or Netflix binging.

 

[ElderPrice]

Very interesting question.

First off, I'd like to provide my perspective as someone that started with PUA material (here) and in the last year or so and seen more and more red pill content and have seen objective truths and value in what I've heard. I don't want to say I've drifted in the rp direction... But maybe at least I can definitely see its appeal. Plus, I like to think I'm smart enough where I can read multiple viewpoints and extract all the wisdom and truth they have to offer.

To clarify, I have never watched an episode of a red pill podcast, I haven't read any rp articles, etc. The only content I've seen are the 15s - 10 minute videos that the YouTube algorithm bumps up for me. All the viral ones we've probably all seen.

My first comment is I think your characterization of rp is a little off the mark. Again, at least in the context of someone that's mainly only seen the viral rp videos.

The rp content creators I've seen do NOT seem to be saying:
- You won't get pussy without muscles
- You wont' get pussy without money
- You won't get pussy without being alpha

What I think they DO seem to say is:
- If you care about your physical fitness, if you care about your financial security, if you care about having healthy mindsets, boundaries, standards, etc, this will transform your life making you into a much better, happier man, and that will also have the effect of making you more attractive to women.

I have not heard any say bitterly: "all women are raging sluts!!!11"

Instead, I've heard reasonable advice like:
- Don't be the guy that marries the village bicycle
- If women demand traditional values in men, it's fair to demand the same in women
- Don't be the guy that marries the girl hitting the wall


To your main question, my guess is the biggest sticking point, posed as a question, would be: "Why would I *want* to get into PUA?"

To learn the skills to pull (what they will perceive as) easy women? To learn the skills to increase a notch count?
It seems like RP more than PUA acknowledges men, or the general desire, to have a high quality girlfriend or wife in the future.
So I don't know if every RP guy is interested in picking up 100 "bimbos." It probably doesn't make sense how that would greatly help them land their ideal 20-year-old virgin. Compared to the idea of working on yourself and making yourself into a strong man.. I'm sure that sounds like it makes a little more sense.

So maybe the idea is that RP is the muscles, money, attitude component of it. Whereas PUA is the social skills component.


Then of course there's the long-obvious problem that muscles/money/attitude are clearly VISIBLE traits that seem to show success, as you described above.

PUA guys have always been perceived as snake oil salesmen because their success is INVISIBLE. It's impossible to confirm anyone who claims a certain notch count, nobody posts photos of the girls they've pulled and even if they did you don't know 100% for sure they actually closed. And then of course in public you just don't see what PUA claims to sell. You just don't see a really unattractive guy with a gorgeous, highly desirable woman. At least that's my experience.

That's my stream of consciousness!

 

[Gladiator]

Interesting observations Chase, but what I think it really comes down to is mother nature.

Men want unlimited sexual access but the truth is only a select few will ever experience it. And one thing i've noticed is that every-time something comes up to increase that access, mother nature finds a way to insert obstacles for men to distract them from whats really important

It's like the ultimate shit test

Interesting you say this. Since this is not discussed this around here, I always thought it happens only to me. I can't count the number of times this has happened to me