What's the big resistance point for guys to overcome before getting into PUA these days?

[Spyce D]

Well , Pickup involves putting our ego on the line .


Forget about PU , how may men in this whole world will put their ego on the line ?

Compared to Gym , where you watch yourself in the mirror between sets boosting your ego .



Will agree with @TomInHo here . Frankly , I was thinking something similar a few days ago .

Interesting observations Chase, but what I think it really comes down to is mother nature.

Men want unlimited sexual access but the truth is only a select few will ever experience it. And one thing i've noticed is that every-time something comes up to increase that access, mother nature finds a way to insert obstacles for men to distract them from whats really important

It's like the ultimate shit test

To be honest , PU isn't as juicy / controversial as rp .

In PU if you don't get results either you need a reality check or quit .

While in RP ...nothing is your fault ...everything is other's fault .

Again , RP is sort of a branch of conservatism . That's how I have seen .



Things like #METOO , Jonny depp trial , New Movies etc. aren't helping it either .

These things are only reaffirming RP stance of WOMEN EVIL .

Crazy part is these folks who say all this crap are working to be jacked , rich , alpha to get women ..

If women are so bad ...why even bother getting them !!




A few problems in PU are

- Lack of tribal identity like RP .
- Some famous older PUAs left the scene in a way that might have made young folks not to trust PU over redpill.
- Stereotypes of puas being weak .

---

- No DADDY FIGURE . RP have lot of daddy figures for young guys .
- IT DOESNOT FOCUS ON THINGS OUTSIDE OUR CONTROL , e.g. POLITICS , things that get people to click on the video lol
- Not blaming other races for their failure (I am talking about any race), things that get people to click on the video

 

[CharmingPsychopath]

I noted that there's been a three point transition in mentalities between the pre- and post-PUA mentalities I've seen:

1. PRE-PUA: 1990s/2000s "Just Be Yourself" (...)
   
   
2. PUA: 2005-2015 "Learn the Game" (...)
   
   
3. POST-PUA: 2015 to present "Get Ripped, Rich, and Alpha" (...)

To some degree - yes, but my impression is that the entire time, the majority of the people did believe and still does believe in belief system #1.

most guys tried some PUA, halfheartedly, and failed,

I disagree - I think most guys didn't try PUA, but instead got convinced that PUA is for losers by other means. Some by having PUA friends who had no success, others by hearing negative opinions/gossip.

I mean, honestly, all these are hard to pull off:

• It is hard to hang around in multiple girls' friend zones for years hoping to get a rewarding relationship.
• It is hard to get good enough at PUA that you are able to consistently lay girls you actually like.
• It is hard to pack on a ton of muscle, build a bunch of wealth, and develop some big tough guy mindset.

Objectively option #2 up there is the best option with women. For choosing just one of these to put a bunch of time into, #2 is the best use of time, if the goal is "women."

I agree all options are hard to pull off. However, is the option #2 universally the best? It's certainly the best option for some people - those who can make it work. But I know many failed PUAs, who in my opinion would get better effects if they would go for option #3.

Of course, anyone who knows enough guys who are rich, ripped, and have an alpha male mindset knows that these things on their own do not get you laid.

I don't know any such guys - all the rich & ripped guys I know do get laid and with attractive women.

BTW In my opinion downplaying that was always a nasty "sin" of the PUA community. The Red Pill community is lying in one direction, while PUA community was always lying in opposite direction. (and the mainstream society was and is lying in yet another direction)

I thought for a while red pill was a move away from focusing on women... because that is what the red pill guys will say: "Don't focus on women." "Women aren't worth it." "There are no decent women left." Etc. But look at the content. Everything constantly revolves around women, they talk about women non-stop, and there is a continual promise that "once you are rich, ripped, and alpha male enough, the women will just flow."

Yes.

They try to pretend they don't care about women, but they are actually obsessed with them and discuss female behaviour all the time.

Also, they hate guys who are getting laid. Especially if they're getting laid in ways contrary to their beliefs. They feel really hurt hearing that somebody else just aproached a girl on the street and got laid.

So what is the major resistance point these days?

IMO:

Negative image of PUA + the always present "girls are good, you should just be yourself" propaganda.

Have you seen anything that makes red pill guys go, "Hey wait a minute... maybe *I* could do PUA! I don't HAVE to spend years slaving away to build all this stuff hoping the girls will come! I can start talking to girls TODAY and doing things differently, and some of it will work"?

A lot of them have really strong cult indoctrination and reality-denial. I've achieved some very small impact when I've told them that if they will get rich and not be experienced with women, they will become "beta providers", treated as source of income, likely cheated on, etc. But I repeat - the impact was very small.

One odd thing is when they hear that somebody is getting laid by approaching, they don't get an idea "maybe I can do that too?". Instead they get angry and try to appear dismissive, although it's obvious they're burning with jealousy. I had Red Pill guys try to convince me that I'm somehow inferior to them (???).

I had exchanges which went like this:

Red Pill guy: "I have respect for myself and would never humiliate myself by chasing women on the street".

Me: "How is getting laid with hot girls humiliation?"

Red Pill guy: "It's your choice, do whatever you want".

It seems like if anything the flow is in the opposite direction... guys try PUA, don't get immediate results, hear a red pill guru, and conclude "Aha. It's because I'm not ripped and rich with an alpha male mindset. I need to stop wasting my time getting rejected by girls and go get ripped and rich with an alpha male mindset first. Then I'll be on Easy Street."

Well, PUA is (or at least should be) practical, you have to do it and most people fail at it. Red Pill is theoretical - there is no "doing", no effort, no chance of failure (or of success). These guys literally like to sit on forums or drink beer with their friends and complain about women. It's retarded, but it's EASY.

Honestly I think most of these guys are really into Red Pill for some weird kind of "psychotherapy". They get told that their lack of success with women is not their fault, that it's really the fault of the evil society, evil women, etc. They get to feel like "morally superior victims". They also get to feel as some kind of elite people "in the know", smarter and therefore better than the rest of the society.

- "It's not your fault, women are just manipulative evil, selfish people so you must protect yourself"

This is probably the biggest talking point and attraction factor with red pill. From memes about men getting wrecked in divorces to confessions about women manipulating and using women. Humans generally like putting blame on others and red pill puts whatever heart break men go through on "women's evil nature".

EXACTLY!

- "don't be a simp and she will respect you. And if she respects you, she will want to sleep with you"

What an ego boost right there

this is probably where pua and red pill have similarities. Simp here means a nice guy. And red pill teaches not to be a simp for women and to hold your frame.

If you ask me, this is the biggest reason why the red pill became popular. Because you can apply it in your life and see results

I have seen the opposite happen - Red Pill guys trying to be "tough alpha", in a very crude and abrasive manner, which backfired on them.

It should be renamed into the Rage Pill.

Indeed!

BTW One thing which a lot of people might not realise, is that the Red Pill they see online is "self-censored" Red Pill. When among themselves in a private setting, especially after alcohol, many Red Pill guys start expressing very controversial views - for example they start to justify or even praise physical violence against women.

It's literally like:

Red Pill guy #1: "and then I've hit my wife in the face"
Red Pill guy #2: "Great job, that bitch deserved it!"
Red Pill guy #3: "Yeah, you're the man! Let's drink!"
Red Pill guy #4: (raising his beer mug) "Fuck all bitches!"

This gives them a sense of belonging, but it damages their chances of establishing positive relations with women.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

TLDR: IMO RP dominates because:

1. It markets itself as "rebellious" but it's just male mainstream thoughts with a dose of hope

E.g. Yes Mr. Incel I'll support your incorrect views of maddona/whore, how much effort seduction should take & "quality" girls, give you a community who think the same way then sell you on the hope that once you get rich & ripped it will all work itself out.

Rather than just do what you've been avoiding and talk to some girls lol. Stems from laziness really.


2. It's very hard to market nuanced ideas to the masses.

See it all the time across everything. Far easier to sell someone coffee than encourage them to change habits & consistently get enough sleep.

Solution? Re-brand with a bait and switch.

Rebrand is a must as PUA has negative connotations. Could become "seduction" and shorten it to "Sizz" or something silly to compete with Rizz & get Gen Z attention lol

Then basically bait and switch with messages like - $LeeP WitH 80% GiRl$$ 1st tIME.!!! then when they enter your sales funnel teach 2nd gen verbals and sexual prizing lol.

Ultimately though I doubt it would happen anytime soon. It's very rare you get good marketers who're also competent information purists too.

Longer Answer / Worthy mentions from other people

1. Lack of Effort - These morons would only talk to 5 women in an entire year and wonder why they didn't have a harem of 20 bitches. You think I'm joking but it's insane how many men really think like this

2. Lack of Critical Thinking - If they were able to put in a lot of numbers/effort, I also noticed they will make the same mistakes over and over again. They will hit the same exact sticking point and make zero attempts to change their approach and just plow and hope for the best. Even if I gave them a suggestion their ego was too invested on "How things should be" rather than "How things really are"

Co-sign this, by far the biggest reasons I've seen too.

They seem to lack "hunger" for this kind of thing.

+1 most guys think they want to be rich, lay lots of girls etc etc. but when push comes to shove most are happy "above average" & a GF.

I don't know any such guys - all the rich & ripped guys I know do get laid and with attractive women.

BTW In my opinion downplaying that was always a nasty "sin" of the PUA community. The Red Pill community is lying in one direction, while PUA community was always lying in opposite direction. (and the mainstream society was and is lying in yet another direction)

Very underrated comment. All sides have their biases but legit PUA is the most nuanced & straightforward to quickly improving your woman life.

A lot of times though, it's borderline broken people who join this community and suck after years on end. Those type of guys would actually get better woman results from focusing on RP because they need to get their life in order first/foremost.

 

[Adventurer]

In my opinion, the biggest blocking point for absolute beginners (red pill and disney believers alike) is that they don't consider seduction as a skill that can be learnt

Disney mentality is all about "finding the one", being yourself etc... This excludes any way to improve your skill as a seducer, because everything is in the hands of destiny/chance/the law of attraction/finding your queen or other similar concepts

Red pill mentality is about improving yourself to the point that women throw themselves at you + a good amount of misogyny, then again they don't really consider seduction to be a skill, "grinding" will solve the problem by itself (supposedly)

Incels and blackpills are the same btw. They just internalize that they're bad for reason out of their control (in the case of blackpill, it's looks)

Honestly, from what I've seen around me, if you manage to convince someone that getting girls is a skill that anyone (including them) can learn, they will improve. Sure they won't turn into James Bond overnight but knowing it's a skill solves most ultra beginner issues on its own

Another pretty big hurdle some guys face is that they also have to accept that there is no magic pill and like every skill, they will have to put in the work. If you are not used to do efforts, it's also a big blocking point. Ego plays a big part in this ("I'm amazing ! I should get girls ! I shouldn't have to do efforts for it ! Insert misogyny/arrogance/victim mentality here"). I used to be like that, it's not fun

 

[Will_V]

So @POB and I were talking about how red pill has sucked up a lot of the oxygen seduction took up back in the day.

I noted that there's been a three point transition in mentalities between the pre- and post-PUA mentalities I've seen:

1. PRE-PUA: 1990s/2000s "Just Be Yourself": the big mentality among guys was that "most girls are good girls" and "most girls want a relationship before they will put out" and that learning seduction was dumb because "that stuff doesn't work, girls aren't just going to hook up with you because you spit some game at them, they want a relationship."
   
   
2. PUA: 2005-2015 "Learn the Game": seduction took off and snaked through the culture. Not every guy took it seriously but every guy heard of it and most guys tried out a few techniques at least. Guys started getting the message that "actually, girls WILL hook up with you, if you present yourself the right way, and say and do the right stuff."
   
   
3. POST-PUA: 2015 to present "Get Ripped, Rich, and Alpha": most guys tried some PUA, halfheartedly, and failed, then looked around and noticed a lot of the guys who SEEMED to be doing better than them (also without much in the way of genuine PUA skills) had one or more of being rich, ripped, or a tough guy frame. At the same time they watched all these influencer social media models blow up, many of whom were posing with rich, ripped, or alpha-type guys for social media likes. Then on top of that you had dating apps, which most girls don't even use, but the girls who do use them date around a lot and go for guys 3 points higher than them in looks, or else guys who are rich or ripped. Most of these guys probably weren't actually doing a lot better than regular guys were (other than on dating apps) but the perception that they were killing it was there. So the mindset shifted to the present day red pill "girls are all raging sluts, they are hooking up with dudes constantly, but ONLY the guys who are Chads, which means rich, ripped, or an alpha male mindset." In the red pill guy's mind PUA is just dumb tricks, the same as the "just be yourself" guy's position, the difference being that to the red pill guy PUA doesn't work not because you're not offering an LTR (which was the "just be yourself" guy's position) but because you're not rich, ripped, and in possession of an alpha male mindset.

Yeah I think this is all down to technology, on instagram the ripped/rich/alpha is what has the most impact. Guys admire it anyway, so if you attach it to women it makes sense to people.

Also, anytime you are in a hyper competitive environment, like some high end night club, looking all dressed up and flashy and being in extraordinary shape really does make a difference. Whereas the more subtle arts of seduction work very well (or at least more easily) in everyday environments.

The social media has made everyone think that the real world is this hyper competitive showoff environment and their own lives are just some kind of miserable pocket of illusion in the corner somewhere.

I'm not against the idea of ripped/rich/alpha - I think it has a very substantial level of attraction for women, and it's certainly not bad for a guy to have. I don't see why every guy shouldn't be shooting for everything he can become. But when you see those red pill panels with red pills guys and women sitting around, it's very clear from the women's body language who they are actually into and who they are just paying lip service to, and it falls very clearly along the line of who actually has good social skills, charm, presence, wit, knows how to work the room, and can flirt and vibe.

It was really fun in the early days of PUA, because guys were going around saying, "Pssh, girls won't just HOOK UP with you! They need a relationship first! Be yourself harder and you'll get there!" and you could just show them you were hooking up with girls, tell the guy, "Look dude -- I JUST met this girl and now she's in my bed. Believe it," and guys would be blown away, have a mindset shift (not all of them, but many of them), and be going, "Holy crap, how do I learn this?"

But now with this red pill stuff, guys have it in their heads that "girls are all raging sluts" (even though the average number of sex partners is falling and women alongside men are having less sex than they've had in decades!), and if you talk to some red pill guy who's not getting laid and say, "Look dude -- I JUST met this girl and now she's in my bed. Believe it," he is just responding to you with, "Yeah, girls are all raging sluts. You're probably rich or ripped or already have an alpha male mentality. Or maybe you are just dating down in looks and hooking up with ugly girls." It's like every red pill guy comes with an immunity to PUA now -- one that is much stronger than "just be yourself" guys had on average. There were always hardcore "just be yourselfers", but a lot of them were at the point where they were realizing this approach wasn't working, and they were open to something new.

I suppose in a way it is natural for these things to go in cycles, and for people to collectively build immunity to whatever the previous iteration was.

I mean, honestly, all these are hard to pull off:

• It is hard to hang around in multiple girls' friend zones for years hoping to get a rewarding relationship.
• It is hard to get good enough at PUA that you are able to consistently lay girls you actually like.
• It is hard to pack on a ton of muscle, build a bunch of wealth, and develop some big tough guy mindset.

Objectively option #2 up there is the best option with women. For choosing just one of these to put a bunch of time into, #2 is the best use of time, if the goal is "women."

I would say that a mix of #2 and #3 in practice is what works best for most guys. Because pure PUA seems to me to require a different sort of mindset. You have to be very perceptive and extremely adaptable, like a comedian or an actor. Most people can't even fathom how things work at that level. It's way easier to get through the beginner hell when you already get a lot of attention and IOIs from women anyway.

All these mentalities revolve around getting women. I thought for a while red pill was a move away from focusing on women... because that is what the red pill guys will say: "Don't focus on women." "Women aren't worth it." "There are no decent women left." Etc. But look at the content. Everything constantly revolves around women, they talk about women non-stop, and there is a continual promise that "once you are rich, ripped, and alpha male enough, the women will just flow."

Couldn't agree more, all you have to see is the emotional shift when these guys are around women, the suppressed neediness or resentment come out, and you know what everything in their mind is orbiting around.

Of course, anyone who knows enough guys who are rich, ripped, and have an alpha male mindset knows that these things on their own do not get you laid. You can have them or not have them and still be an incel. The new term 'gymcel' has caught on fire, describing dudes who are buff but don't get laid.

I can't comment too much on what it means to be some rich jacked dude with a million followers or whatever, since I've never been that rich or jacked and I don't really have any social media. But what I can read is women's behaviour, and what they respond to around variations of this type of guy, and it has everything to do with his fundamentals. Some guys tick loads of boxes but I can see that women have not got the least bit of interest, because they can see way further into him than all these other red pill dudes can.

So what is the major resistance point these days?

I think it'd be interesting talking about what you'd need to do to flip a guy from a jaded "all women are sluts, but only for the Chad who's rich, ripped, and has an alpha male mentality" mindset to one where he is thinking about PUA, getting excited, and going, "Holy crap, maybe I could do this... just learn the right things to say and do with women and I can get girls I want even without having to spend years getting rich, ripped, or building an alpha male mentality."

The stuff I'm doing in some of the new GC sales materials is talking about this red pill rich, ripped, and alpha male mindset stuff head on and saying look, these guys get this stuff, after setting aside women for YEARS to work on it, hoping it'll pay off in the end, and it DOESN'T... because if you want to get women, you need to focus on WOMEN -- DUH! I think this is increasingly going to be my angle: "You're not gonna get women by focusing on all these other distractions and setting women aside. That's just dumb."

But it'd be interesting to get other guys' thoughts on this.

I don't know if that's the best approach, because in the end those things are all very good to have, and let's face it, it's very hard for most guys to break out of their shells without undergoing a big transformation across the board, and breaking a lot of bad mindsets and limiting beliefs. I consider the gym to be the most fundamental thing to my success in life (even though I'm not really jacked at all and not interested in gaining size so much as having an outlet for my aggression). But the experience is transformative, the same way that the experience of trying to start your own business and get rich is transformative. It's unfortunate that it's so easy to tell guys that's all they have to do, but I don't know if it's worth trying to go directly against that.

I certainly would focus on and emphasize social skills, communication and negotiation skills, because it's much easier for guys to understand the benefits of that (since there is a whole industry built around sales and the 'attention economy' dating back decades that people are well aware of) and maybe connect seduction to that to help guys understand what they are missing.

Have you seen anything that makes red pill guys go, "Hey wait a minute... maybe *I* could do PUA! I don't HAVE to spend years slaving away to build all this stuff hoping the girls will come! I can start talking to girls TODAY and doing things differently, and some of it will work"?

It seems like if anything the flow is in the opposite direction... guys try PUA, don't get immediate results, hear a red pill guru, and conclude "Aha. It's because I'm not ripped and rich with an alpha male mindset. I need to stop wasting my time getting rejected by girls and go get ripped and rich with an alpha male mindset first. Then I'll be on Easy Street."

Problem is, it's very hard in the beginning. I (probably like a lot of other guys) only really took action when things got very bad and life was miserable and I felt like I had no other choice. Going out and talking to random girls when you haven't had one yet or for a long time, and especially when you're in the dumps mentally, is very very tough. You get almost no feedback and it immediately sends you right in the face of the problem that's been mounting in your life for years (perceived social and female rejection), which gets overwhelming.

I guess the question is, why don't guys start doing it when things are not that bad? And I think that has a lot to do with how it seems to go against social conformity.

Maybe there's just no way to fight the zeitgeist and it simply has to run its course.

Seems like these things go in 10-15 year cycles. I think we're probably about 8 years into this red pill cycle at this point, and starting to see some fatigue. Nobody was talking about 'gymcels' a couple years ago, for instance (though the term apparently dates back to 2014 or earlier. I never really heard it very much until 2021 or so).

Probably still going to take a few more years before we reach a critical mass of guys going, "I got rich, ripped, and an alpha male mindset... but I still didn't get laid. What am I missing?" and the culture opens up to some other viewpoint taking hold.

But perhaps if we are taking more aim directly at this ridiculous red pill ethos of "you just have to work on yourself for years, then women will come to you, you'll see. Don't even worry about women until then" we can start resonating more with a message that pops this zeitgeist we're in.

I definitely think attacking the 'work for years then they'll come' idea is worth doing. The smarter red pill guys will say that money doesn't change who you are, if you are a loser and get rich without transforming yourself you're still a rich loser. But I don't know if rich/ripped/alpha can really be extricated from being successful with women because to the guys who don't operate at the deeper levels of social skills it just doesn't make sense.

 

[ulrich]

Perhaps going back to basics?

Maybe if we want new blood, we could forget a little about seduction/PUA and focus on social skills.

Seduction might get a bad rep (it has always) but persuasion and charm don’t.

We could re-brand, show these guys the things they can get if they are just more socially attuned and then use it as a gateway drug to introduce seduction as the “next logical step”.
I mean, at some point they are going to connect 2+2 and say… “dude, this can get me women but they are trickier”.

God knows these new generations are socially stunted.


HOW TO BE PRINCE CHARMING.
Get girls thinking about you and sending you invites while you work in your hustle.

 

[Bill]

From what I’ve seen
1) they don’t believe it’s possible, they believe if you don’t gain interest right away from your appearance it is impossible
2) they feel learning about it at all is creepy or weird and are resistant to any suggestion of improvement especially if it references PUA directly

 

[MarkA]

Picking up girls has a big image problem

1) it's seen as weird - If the Noughties was anyone's decade than it was Mystery. He had the top students, worldwide seminars, ebook, TV show and tons of derivative companies. Problem is his whole peacocking approach just looked weird esp. the bee clothes one, eyeliner and boots that he made his students wear rather than find their own style, plus all the step names A1, C3 etc came across nerdy.

Now for some it worked great but the public image was bad and that is how the general public perceives the whole seduction community as if we are all one voice.

2) it's brutal and no fun
- most guys try it for a few weeks and give up. They can't handle rejection and take it personally. When pick up advice was first marketed it was all about learn PU in ten easy steps and workshops would change your life when for 99% it didn't. If you don't enjoy it you will get burnout. Also if you can swipe hundreds of girls per day without rejection from your home for many guys it seems like a no brainer to just go online. Add to that that many who get good just move on with their lives so you are left with the bad being the majority vocal ones.

3) it's deceitful
Pretty much back to Mystery Method again as the general public see the seduction community as using a bunch of lies being used to get the girl into bed.

Now that being said I don't think the community has really gone away. Many guys like Wayne Elise / juggler still game it's just he now sanitises his stuff and markets it in a more mainstream way. Lots of PUA guys are now marketed as dating coaches. Same material, different socially acceptable name. Owen cook / Tyler Durden is another example who does likewise with self-improvement but it's clear his workshops are still seduction based. I also think some concepts have become mainstream like wingman or negging. In addition if you go on YouTube there are lots of guys offering pick up advice with millions of hits. For many guys its a more fun way to learn than to use a forum and discuss ideas.

 

[Spyce D]

I also think some concepts have become mainstream like wingman or negging. In addition if you go on YouTube there are lots of guys offering pick up advice with millions of hits. For many guys its a more fun way to learn than to use a forum and discuss ideas.

Bingo .

Why read all the techniques ..when you get all the juicy infields .

People may like more visual and in-action (aka infields) these days a lot .

 

[OldGuy]

I have a book "How to Pick Up Girls" from 1970 (1977 printing) really just covers how to get a date, mostly day game, and nothing on how to get the rest of the way. However, much better than the earlier books I read. The first one got my first date to talk about marriage, as in I don't know you well enough to marry you" after 1 date and 3 months of following the book. The second book I read became the first book I ever threw away. (Everyone should be engaged by 18 and married by 21!) As you see, Oldguy is correct.

 

[ChristianB]

Early 20s guy here who has benefited from both reading Chase's articles and watching Andrew Tate's content

80% of my guy friends are in long term relationships
Of the other 20%, most get laid a bit or occasional fwb from apps. Only two that are more playerish (both extremely good looking and use apps) and one who got into hookers...

I've always had trouble getting friends to go out and talk to girls even at bars. Most don't generally enjoy nightlife, so a night going out is a waste of time/money unless getting laid. Even if you brought a girl home 1/5 times you went out, it still really wouldn't be worth it, especially when you can get girls of comparable quality on "the apps" while sitting at home. Frankly I'm starting to feel this way about nightlife too as I'm focusing more on my business (at least in my current city/situation).

Those who do enjoy going out generally are the type where they have social group with girls and end up with one of those girls as long term girlfriend. They won't search for better options since they know the girls on apps are crazy, uncallibrated and less attractive.

Unless you live in socal, south florida, one of the handful of east coast cities etc, day-game isn't really feasible besides maybe 2 grocery store/shopping approaches a month because you simply don't see girls out.

So where does that leave guys? The rational decision for most is hope to get lucky from social circle or apps and once you find a cute girl with no major red flags to enter into LTR.

If you can already get quantity from just wasting more time on apps, the only purpose of putting the effort into PUA would be to get quality

And in order to get quality girls from PUA you need good fundamentals (basically what Andrew Tate preaches...), and you also need to live in a good city (which requires money.... another thing Andrew Tate preaches).

And even then a lot of guys who dedicate large amounts of time and efforts to this basically get the same results the tinder guys get. I can't find it now but @Chase even wrote article confirming that most PUA guys end up getting married to average looking girls or hot foreigners. If this is the result for most who put large efforts into this why not just focus on fundamentals and wait for a decent girlfriend? This is not how I see it, but I don't blame anyone for thinking this.

Me personally I see it both ways. Fundamentals are key to success with women and also to living a virtuous and successful life, but game and charisma are needed as well as access to women which either comes from approaching or social status. I think Tate and Chase would certainly agree on that at least.

 

[Skills]

it is bizarre that the guys in this post that follow red pill, totally indirectly coping or kj, with all due respect.... But anyways guys, i just accepted a while back how the red pill has won, nothing i can do.... But anyways i will just sit here from the side i feel sorry for the none sense....Eventually it will implode and when it does, hopefully they will be back....

 

[Will_V]

Whether you agree or not with what the red pill has become, the reality is that it represents a problem that runs way deeper in men's lives than women. Trying to fix a life in its entirety with seduction is bound to fail, even if the seduction side improves. The red pill is an attempt to understand and provide an explanation and solutions for the disillusionment that men have with every part of modern male life.

The idea of working 9-5 just to barely pay the bills and never get out of debt, coming home to a family being inculcated by the TV and the school and social media and every other form of communication in values that don't match your own, getting in a divorce and losing half your shit, custody of your kids, and having to pay for your woman's lifestyle after she's gone off with some other dude, to name only a few of the problems - these are real problems that guys desperately need to fix. Because at some point most dudes (including myself) will have the priority of wanting to build a family life, and there are no easy ways to do it.

This comes on top of the most fundamental problem in guy's lives, which is having no path in life to follow as a young guy, all the strong role models (especially the father) attacked by your society, no clear way to test and develop yourself to the fullest of your masculine capabilities, and having every tendency to do this overtly or implicitly opposed by the society you live in. Here in Australia where I live for example, a school recently made all the boys stand up in front of the girls and apologize for being boys. To a developing young mind, this is incredibly destructive - the worst inhibitions in children are produced not by hardship but by guilt and psychological oppression (or even lack of psychological support of their efforts to develop themselves).

These are all incredibly difficult problems, and many cannot be solved by seduction. If it was simply about having women in your life and managing your relationship with your women, seduction, sex skills, frame control and all the other elements taught here would be sufficient. But it's not just about that. The red pill is a fight for man's identity, and someone will always defend their identity with far more effort than they would devote to adding anything to their life, and necessarily so.

I say this because I think the red pill is not something anyone should try or want to oppose. It has been co-opted to some extent by shysters and people who believe that they can fix other people's problems with a solution that hasn't truly fixed their own. And it has become a whine-fest and complain-fest about women, which I think largely drives the stupid mentality of 'get rich and they'll come' because at the core these guys don't want to do anything proactive to succeed with women.

But one must not confuse the problem - the movement - with the solutions that are being given. The movement itself is as necessary and positive a thing as has happened in recent times as far as I'm concerned. And that's why I think trying to oppose the shysters by opposing the movement or trying to say it's not real, or saying that most guys can just be happy being a PUA and living an outsider life with no commitments, is just not going to work whatsoever.

Game and pickup is a tool for fixing one aspect of a man's life, but there are many wars on many fronts, and a lot more tools are required to fight them.

 

[mist]

Another idea in regards to conversion could be looking at what Guests on this forum find or are searching through

or even a bot to see recurring hits from guests...maybe get insight into what comes up.

My glossary glance showed closing, age gaps, and date and sarge frequency today are coming up.

but who knows what a bot will see more accurately

Current visitors

www.skilledseducer.com

Many threads you wouldn't expect to peak interest explored by guests there...

curiously, @trashKENNUT aka zacadam is a pretty popular guest attraction and writer

do with that information what you will

 

[POB]

Game and pickup is a tool for fixing one aspect of a man's life, but there are many wars on many fronts, and a lot more tools are required to fight them.

As I recall, it started as a movement to shed light on men's legal problems.
Like guys not being able to see their kids after a split, or being divorce raped by their ex's, or being abused by female superiors, etc.
It was a way to call attention to the fact that we have absolute no laws to protect us.

The spill over seduction, sex and relationships is what really fucked it up in my opinion.

 

[Bismarck]

@Will_V I sort of disagree with most of what you wrote in your last post. See below:

1. You don't have to have a 9-to-5 or debt
2. You don't have to have a TV at home
3. You can get a prenup and not get raped by divorce
4. Sure you can develop yourself to the fullest of your masculine capabilities - lift weights, do full contact combat sports, and build your business(es) - not sure how "society" can oppose that
5. Make an excuse to keep your kid at home when they do that at the school or take better care with what school you place your kid in (or home school your kid)
6. The "red pill" doesn't represent a problem that runs deeper in men's lives than women, it's a victim mentality (much like BLM and the feminists themselves) centered essentially on the increase in quotas and career opportunities for women in recent times in the West - the stated problem is very much women

Not sure what solutions the "red pill" provides for modern life. It sounds like a lot of hot air to me TBH. Field of Dreams beta shit with a new veneer. No, hot dimes won't drop on your lap once you have alloy rims on your SUV or inject enough piss into your muscles.

If it's hot girls you want - to build a rockstar life - you can either choose the ecosystem/lifestyle game approach, where you get laid as a consequence of your job, hobby(ies) or social circle(s), or you can opt for the sigma male route and build a habit of flirting with the manifold hot girls that you see as you stroll about on your day to day.

As for anti-male feminism in Australia (and in much of the Commonwealth) you can simply move out. Nowadays you can live anywhere off of your labor with just a laptop on your back. Unless you want to get into politics and change things, in which case the Conservative party is the only way forward.

I know a Texan natural with more than 300 notches who moved to South America where he runs an online business and parties like a king. This is what an alpha does, he creates his own reality. I know another Asian-American dude currently running multiple businesses from Thailand. etc.

To finalize: you don't need to watch mainstream movies or TV shows, or read the MSM. You can even be climbing the corporate ladder in the West and not be plugged into the Western mind virus bubble. Ask me how I know...

 

[Will_V]

@Will_V I sort of disagree with most of what you wrote in your last post. See below:

1. You don't have to have a 9-to-5 or debt
2. You don't have to have a TV at home
3. You can get a prenup and not get raped by divorce
4. Sure you can develop yourself to the fullest of your masculine capabilities - lift weights, do full contact combat sports, and build your business(es) - not sure how "society" can oppose that
5. Make an excuse to keep your kid at home when they do that at the school or take better care with what school you place your kid in (or home school your kid)
6. The "red pill" doesn't represent a problem that runs deeper in men's lives than women, it's a victim mentality (much like BLM and the feminists themselves) centered essentially on the increase in quotas and career opportunities for women in recent times in the West - the stated problem is very much women

That's kind of what the red pill is all about, no? It's certainly ridden with victim mentality and complaining about women, but a lot of it purports to solve these problems in one way or another.

I think you don't realize how far you've already come with your own perspective on things, and making out like it's a lot simpler than it is to get there. A lot of young guys were brought up believing in the status quo, are still surrounded by the status quo, and only make some kind of change when they become disillusioned one way or another and look for some kind of new identity to reinforce them. But for those who become disillusioned enough to go out and make a substantial course change, there are a hundred more who simply feel miserable and don't really know what to do about it. Because they don't have anyone shedding light on how it all works.

I don't know what kind of upbringing you had, but mine was very different to the norm (and the norm then is not the same as the norm now). I can hardly imagine what it's like to grow up as a kid from the very beginning, immersed in the current education system and way of thinking. The human mind tends to live in an illusion of free agency when in reality we move according to a worldview that has been put together brick by brick, for better or worse, since the day we were born, that can be disassembled only at great cost.

And if you think it's easy to oppose the education system as a parent, I've got news for you. It's nowhere near as simple as not having a TV or keeping your kid home from school on a particular day.

Regarding marriage, do you really think it's as easy as that, not only to get away from alimony with a prenup, but for the average guy to go out there and prepare a proper one with the woman he's in love with?

The red pill (at least some of it) is about revealing the dangers that for many guys are realized way too late, how to avoid all the problems, showing cases where things worked out one way or another and how. At least that's what it should be.

Not sure what solutions the "red pill" provides for modern life. It sounds like a lot of hot air to me TBH. Field of Dreams beta shit with a new veneer. No, hot dimes won't drop on your lap once you have alloy rims on your SUV or inject enough piss into your muscles.

We can certainly agree that the red pill has been coopted by a lot of concepts that are related more to marketing than reality.

If it's hot girls you want - to build a rockstar life - you can either choose the ecosystem/lifestyle game approach, where you get laid as a consequence of your job, hobby(ies) or social circle(s), or you can opt for the sigma male route and build a habit of flirting with the manifold hot girls that you see as you stroll about on your day to day.

Your understanding of these concepts is proof of the need for the information to be available. This information could be termed 'red pill' information. Or not. It doesn't really matter.

As for anti-male feminism in Australia (and in much of the Commonwealth) you can simply move out. Nowadays you can live anywhere off of your labor with just a laptop on your back. Unless you want to get into politics and change things, in which case the Conservative party is the only way forward.

This is very simplistic thinking. A lot of guys want a career in something that can't be done off a laptop in Bali. A lot of guys also want to have families. As soon as you add these two the idea of ditching everything and being a digital nomad becomes a lot harder.

Also, do you really think that it's that easy to extricate a woman from her environment and social network to go and live in some random place with you? It might work for a little while while she's in love with you, but sooner or later you're going to be in for a very tough time.

But again, all this information, both what you said and I said here, could be termed 'red pill' or not, depending on what you choose to label it.

I know a Texan natural with more than 300 notches who moved to South America where he runs an online business and parties like a king. This is what an alpha does, he creates his own reality. I know another Asian-American dude currently running multiple businesses from Thailand. etc.

Again, this is kind of what the red pill is all about right now.

To finalize: you don't need to watch mainstream movies or TV shows, or read the MSM. You can even be climbing the corporate ladder in the West and not be plugged into the Western mind virus bubble. Ask me how I know...

That's good for you, did you simply realize one day as common sense that the MSM was bad for you, or did you learn about it from somewhere?
...
I don't want to spend much time talking about the red pill here on a seduction forum. I'm simply pointing out that I don't think the red pill and pickup are mutually exclusive, or should be, at the fundamental level (in terms of problems/solutions, not victim mentality).

For me, the red pill - coming as a term from the Matrix movie - is about unravelling the social engineering that tries to indoctrinate and control people's minds. Because I do believe that the world is being engineered to an extent we can hardly understand, in such a way as to permit the highest level of control. It's about knowing the truth about how nature engineered us (as opposed to what society wants to have us believe) and how society tries to engineer us, and to figure out how to use that information to improve our lives. Red pill is about all the truths that society would prefer people to be unaware of.

In that sense, I agree with @POB to an extent - I do believe that the red pill went wrong at the point where it tried to prescribe life fixes for men. It's true value so far has been in the conceptual understanding of the ways that social engineering is being used to hide reality. Then came along a lot of marketers and filled it up with flashy stuff for clicks and victim mentality for views.

But I don't think that the study of any problem can be completely removed from the solutions, so I don't necessarily think it shouldn't include fixes and solutions. But it's certainly in a bad state right now.

That's all I really want to say about the red pill here.

 

[Skills]

That's kind of what the red pill is all about, no? It's certainly ridden with victim mentality and complaining about women, but a lot of it purports to solve these problems in one way or another.

I think you don't realize how far you've already come with your own perspective on things, and making out like it's a lot simpler than it is to get there. A lot of young guys were brought up believing in the status quo, are still surrounded by the status quo, and only make some kind of change when they become disillusioned one way or another and look for some kind of new identity to reinforce them. But for those who become disillusioned enough to go out and make a substantial course change, there are a hundred more who simply feel miserable and don't really know what to do about it. Because they don't have anyone shedding light on how it all works.

I don't know what kind of upbringing you had, but mine was very different to the norm (and the norm then is not the same as the norm now). I can hardly imagine what it's like to grow up as a kid from the very beginning, immersed in the current education system and way of thinking. The human mind tends to live in an illusion of free agency when in reality we move according to a worldview that has been put together brick by brick, for better or worse, since the day we were born, that can be disassembled only at great cost.

And if you think it's easy to oppose the education system as a parent, I've got news for you. It's nowhere near as simple as not having a TV or keeping your kid home from school on a particular day.

Regarding marriage, do you really think it's as easy as that, not only to get away from alimony with a prenup, but for the average guy to go out there and prepare a proper one with the woman he's in love with?

The red pill (at least some of it) is about revealing the dangers that for many guys are realized way too late, how to avoid all the problems, showing cases where things worked out one way or another and how. At least that's what it should be.



We can certainly agree that the red pill has been coopted by a lot of concepts that are related more to marketing than reality.



Your understanding of these concepts is proof of the need for the information to be available. This information could be termed 'red pill' information. Or not. It doesn't really matter.



This is very simplistic thinking. A lot of guys want a career in something that can't be done off a laptop in Bali. A lot of guys also want to have families. As soon as you add these two the idea of ditching everything and being a digital nomad becomes a lot harder.

Also, do you really think that it's that easy to extricate a woman from her environment and social network to go and live in some random place with you? It might work for a little while while she's in love with you, but sooner or later you're going to be in for a very tough time.

But again, all this information, both what you said and I said here, could be termed 'red pill' or not, depending on what you choose to label it.



Again, this is kind of what the red pill is all about right now.



That's good for you, did you simply realize one day as common sense that the MSM was bad for you, or did you learn about it from somewhere?
...
I don't want to spend much time talking about the red pill here on a seduction forum. I'm simply pointing out that I don't think the red pill and pickup are mutually exclusive, or should be, at the fundamental level (in terms of problems/solutions, not victim mentality).

For me, the red pill - coming as a term from the Matrix movie - is about unravelling the social engineering that tries to indoctrinate and control people's minds. Because I do believe that the world is being engineered to an extent we can hardly understand, in such a way as to permit the highest level of control. It's about knowing the truth about how nature engineered us (as opposed to what society wants to have us believe) and how society tries to engineer us, and to figure out how to use that information to improve our lives. Red pill is about all the truths that society would prefer people to be unaware of.

In that sense, I agree with @POB to an extent - I do believe that the red pill went wrong at the point where it tried to prescribe life fixes for men. It's true value so far has been in the conceptual understanding of the ways that social engineering is being used to hide reality. Then came along a lot of marketers and filled it up with flashy stuff for clicks and victim mentality for views.

But I don't think that the study of any problem can be completely removed from the solutions, so I don't necessarily think it shouldn't include fixes and solutions. But it's certainly in a bad state right now.

That's all I really want to say about the red pill here.

problem with red pill is a lot of advice when it comes to seduction no practical and the practical advice beyond subpar most of the times and water is wet, is full of paranoia and all the paranoia and scare mongering carries into interactions, dude i had guys that were into that crap, and beg them to drop it and all of a sudden started killing it on the field, one of them is getting the laid the most in this forum as of late.... anyways, pua has always has had self improvement along side, is just we don't care much cause for us all the money, status status etc, kind of irrelevant cause we know it does really don't make much of a difference(chase dude indirectly in op is me lol).... Which sucks cause yea it makes you a bit comfortable, but red pill pushes does things as a solution to get women, that is totally a flaw in the philosophy, same with the hypergamy stuff and paranoia.... Most of the leaders and popular guys have a tone of causation correlation scenarios and live in different reality that they spread... Take a look at this for example which is the problem with the red pill in a nutshell:

 

[Will_V]

problem with red pill is a lot of advice when it comes to seduction no practical and the practical advice beyond subpar most of the times and water is wet, is full of paranoia and all the paranoia and scare mongering carries into interactions, dude i had guys that were into that crap, and beg them to drop it and all of a sudden started killing it on the field, one of them is getting the laid the most in this forum as of late.... anyways, pua has always has had self improvement along side, is just we don't care much cause for us all the money, status status etc, kind of irrelevant cause we know it does really don't make much of a difference(chase dude indirectly in op is me lol).... Which sucks cause yea it makes you a bit comfortable, but red pill pushes does things as a solution to get women, that is totally a flaw in the philosophy, same with the hypergamy stuff and paranoia.... Most of the leaders and popular guys have a tone of causation correlation scenarios and live in different reality that they spread... Take a look at this for example which is the problem with the red pill in a nutshell:

Lol that sort of rp stuff is just pure unintentional comedy.

 

[Warped Mindless]

The seduction scene, the redpill stuff, and dating sites are all about to die due to advanced AI and soon after, AI sex bots.

If you don’t believe me, you don’t understand how advanced AI has become and the extreme amount of money being poured into it.

Do I want an AI GF/fuck buddy? No but I also put in the work to become very good at seduction and I don’t have to settle for that. While 99.9% of men may want to have the real thing over AI, once AI becomes good enough, those same 99.9% would go the extremely less effort route and just settle for AI.

Also, I know some extremely good players who have voluntarily checked out of the random hookup scene because they can’t stand the current crop of younger women. Can’t say I blame them.

It’s also getting to the point where no one wants to pay for information or coaching anymore.

Not so funny story: I’m a business consultant. Recently I worked with a guy and in a very short amount of time I nearly TRIPLED the yearly profit his business makes. He messaged me a little while after asking for extremely discounted consulting packages with me. When I told him that my prices are firm and questioned why he would not be willing to pay full price when I have a proven track record with him he responded with “chatGPT is free and Alex hormozi post free videos all the time so why pay?”

I politely declined any future business with him and told him that I wish him well.

This guy is not exactly an outlier.

Another guy: “Hey Jeff, my buddy Micheal over at [Business] recommended that I reach out to you. He told me how you saved his business and thought you could probably help me.”

I responded back to the guy and did what I always do with potential clients; I gave him a free hour of consulting where I ask him some questions and get a feel for his goals and his problems and obstacles and then tell him
Exactly how I plan to help him. We did the hour, he was in love with my plan, but then was astounded when I told him about the payment options. He told me “that’s to expensive I can probably just watch some YouTube videos and get the same information.”

Mind you, I offer a guarantee and I helped his friend save his business, and this dude still didn’t want to pay.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m still booked solid but it’s becoming more and more common that people just say “nah I’ll go watch videos or ask AI” instead of paying for expertness advice and help.

I suspect anyone who makes a living as a coach, consultant, or anyone who offers information for money is going to be out of a job in the coming years which is why I’m transitioning my business away from consulting.