When a girl puts you in the friendzone, is she abusing you?

[kristian]

I was reading another thread here. About a guy that has been chasing a girl for a long time, and the reply he got really caught my eye. Especially the following quote from ray_zorse:

A friendzone (which is what this is) is an abusive relationship. She's exploiting you.

This made quite an impression on my because ive been there a lot of times. At the same time, it seems a little sad to know this because as I become more experienced with the social arts, I also realize that I had to cut off some friendships. The girls ive had as friends has been amazing, but I feel like I cant be just a friend when my sole purpose is to become their lover. However it hurts, and I know they often dont understand why I suddenly limit my interactions with them drastically (if not completely). Is there a way for me to tell them why I suddenly cut them off? Or does my actions speak for itself.

And finally; it what way is a FZ-relationship abusive? And are these girls aware that they are using their male friends?

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

Since there is only the one line I am not going to say Rays statement is right or wrong because it would be easy to take out of context. I think that if you are not mutually attracted to each other then a friendship is fine. If one of you is attracted to the other but it is not reciprocated then it would be unfair for the person without feeling to expect the other person to be their friend. But in many cases the person does not have the feelings does not know the other person has feeling for them. This is usually because the person with feelings does not tell the other person about their feelings. Then there is no blame on the unattached person. To me the only situation where it could be considered abuse is if the unattached person uses the attached person and does so knowingly. But still even in this case the person with feelings can walk away. So if you want to be friends with a girl that is not attracted to you it is on you. Note that I always said person not girl until the last statement. That is because it can go either way.

Per Bill Withers. "You just keep on using me, until you use me up." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbN8jqDhHO8

BDSC

 

[ray_zorse]

It's a complicated topic and I often wonder just how self-aware women are of their behaviour. I think it varies from woman to woman and day to day. Remember women aren't logical thinkers like men, their brains are a hopeless mishmash of mutually inconsistent thoughts, feelings and emotions. So it's easy for them to avoid unpleasant truths which they really do know deep down. A dude on these boards put it pretty well: I eat meat. Because of me, animals live from birth to death in squalid cages, etc, live in fear and discomfort and die a horrible death. And I'm basically okay with that. I'm never confronted wirh the consequences of my actions... same, women and friendzone. They DO know, they just choose not to look. And that makes it fine. The article posted by Drexel illustrates this.

As an example my girlfriend complained some weeks ago that her best (male) friend now makes excuses, doesn't return her calls and won't hangout with her. I explained he was hot for her, but had been too shy to make a move, was looking for indication of interest on her part before doing so b/c fearful of rejection if he made a move. Had now auto rejected b/c she is seeing me (or just got sick of chasing and wasting his life). She's like NONONO, impossible! He likes XX girl, he told me! I mean, really? I could not convince her. I did offer that she can introduce him to me and I will give him dating coaching until he starts getting laid, but I don't think she seriously considered it.

Ray

 

[Skid]

Yeah the friend-zone "relationship" does benefit the woman and doesn't benefit the man at all. There was comment under the blog post that drexel posted which said "women are the guardians of sex and men are the guardians of commitment don't give away your commitment for free" which I really liked. But , let's remember its the mans fault if he puts himself the in friend zone and well hey if your'e a chick and some dude is giving you all this attention for free you're not gonna say no especially if you don't understand the dynamic that's happening/ what you're doing to him - we are all trying to get what we want in our life in use some degree of manipulation. Let's not make all women look like evil manipulating bitches. And is it really different from when a dude puts a girl in the lover-zone when she wants to be his girlfriend? Not really.

As for how aware they are of this behavior , they clearly just like the to convince themselves that the guy likes her for her - that can be a sore point for a lot of attractive girls I don't think on most occasions they want to intentionally hurt men and suck validation from them.They have to accept its their physical appearance that draws us in and their personality that keeps us.

 

[kristian]

Thank you guys for amazing replies. I can clearly see that I am doing the right thing by limiting my interactions with these girls. I've made a move on some of the girls I've befriended though. But because of my initial inaction I've been missing escalation windows (don't let me begin to list them) and putting myself there in the first place.

I can see that the majority of times I've ended up in that dreadful state it is my own fault, for being too afraid to "mess it up" or loosing a great friendship by pushing to hard.
Now I understand that the best thing is to just move on for a wile, improve my fundamentals and maybe reconnect with these girls to see their reaction to the new, improved version of me.

And after utilizing many of the tools here, I can also see some interesting patterns; its way easier to find new, amazing girls than I thought. Actually I it seems that I only find amazing girls everywhere. I am still developing my skill-set though, so I am not saying that I am able to seduce these women. At least not yet. But my interactions are often going somewhere (phone numbers, some dates, even a couple of make outs and lays from time to time). I can also see that as my fundamentals go up, it is getting increasingly easier to find new girls. Thats a abundance-mentality I never, ever thought was possible a couple of months ago, when I was needy and did not know how to know women. How do you guys relate to these things?

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

For the sake of argument, let's accept the premise of "friendzone = abusive relationship," with the woman as the abuser, and the man as the bitch.

Guess who put themselves in the abusive relationship?

Da homeboy.

Q.E.D.

- Anatman

 

[Bboy100]

Maybe. But an FWB relationship where the girl wants commitment & the man knows it could easily be framed the same way.
Neither men nor women serve as better moral agents in the context of an attraction based relationship. We're both pretty fucking shitty at it.

As for FZ=Abusive?...Why should we even care? The fact is:
1. She may not know you're interested in her as more than a friend. <---This is your fault
2. She knows but doesn't give a shit and is exploiting you. This means you're accepting sub-par behavior from a women.<----Still your fault.

If you don't like the way a girl's treating you, cut her out. Stop trying to frame the girl as being evil or as being bitchy or w.e. Truth is we're all humans- a very imperfect species with biological drives which take no consideration whether or not we hurt others.

 

[ray_zorse]

Another top post by Bboy100 that cuts to the heart of the matter.
Ray

 

[Estate]

I can't totally agree with that statement, it really depends on the context of the situation.

There are a few ways this can come about:

- The guy has expressed his feeling and she has turned him down.
If the guy cannot handle the rejection and continues to persue. That's on him. However, there are SOME cases where a woman could potentially actively keep this guy around knowing he's a source of validation and possibly gifts, drinks, dinners, whatever... in that case. Yes, it's poor on her part. I'd like to believe the amount of women who would do this is in the minority though.
Even still, the GUY should be taking a good hard look at himself that he is handling the "rejection" so poorly and literally describing himself as a victim of abuse (quite a strong phrase!!!)

- The guy has NOT expressed his desire:
Here's where it gets dicey. I think guys and girls think differently. Girls seem to have more capability of actually seeing a guy as just a friend. Guys find it difficult to do this without thinking of a woman sexually at some point.... however, if the guy has other options, this becomes easier. I've been in this situation more lately. I tend to have more female friends now because I actually enjoy their company and can be great fun to banter with without the agressive and competitive nature of guys. The kicker is that I'm seeing other women and can more easily see these women as friends as I'm not being led to see them as a dating option.
But lets get back to the abuse thing.... In this instance I really don't think it is. This is on the guy. He's building a fantasy in his head. A fantasy she is not in the slightest bit aware of. She sees him as a friend, that's the dynamic of the relationship, and everything else is built up in the guys head.

Having said all that though. I understand the negative emotion from the friendzone but calling it abusive is somewhat extreme. It also sounds quite bitter. I think it's better overall to not be so negative about women. This sounds more like one of those "Red Pill" theories which I'm not a huge fan of. For those guys, it's not about improving yourself or your life or getting better with women. It's about projecting all their negative emotions on women and blaming women for their own shortcomings, rather than working on it. I don't feel it's especially healthy overall.