When they don't hand out eye contact on a date

[Hue]

Just went on a coffee date with an interesting girl. She's very much my type.

On the date, she wouldn't look at me in the eye very much. Not in a nervous way, she's quite confident.

The conversation we had was pretty solid, but she only gives me flashes of eye contact with a smile whenever I said something that landed really well.
I'm wondering if this is purposeful and even a reward of some kind. She blankly stares forward for most of the time, where as most girls I date have good eye contact.

Why might a girl not give out eye contact so willingly? Again this is on a date, not a stand-offish aloofness one might see at a bar or during a cold approach.


Hueman

 

[Inbocca]

That is odd... does she do the same with everyone? I know a few people - guys and girls - who just don't make eye contact a whole lot. I used to have the same problem. Did the rest of the date go okay (e.g., did she open up to you, was she smiling, physical contact, give compliance, etc.)?

 

[Yhaceed]

Hueman,

Like Inbocca I had the same problem but I've been working on it practically every time I talk to someone. But when I didn't give eye contact in the past i think it was because someone told me long time ago it's not polite to stare and I didn't know anyone appreciated it or thought it was a sign of respect. So she's probably not aware people like eye contact or she's doing it on purpose so she doesn't develop more feelings for you or maybe to not lead you on. The reason she would avoid those feelings could be a number of reasons but I'm pretty sure some women know they're being seduced and would prefer not to go down that road yet for whatever reason. Personally right now I wouldn't give everyone eye contact either like if I saw some girl looking at me and clearly I'm not interested in her (not to say that's how your girl felt) but it would be a waste of my time if I engaged a girl I wasn't interested in because she was acting like a fool or something else. Also I think some people don't return ec when I'm talking to them because I look mad or something sometimes which I think has been my default expression in the past even though it probably wasn't the way I was feeling. Nowadays they have a puzzled look and I think they're just mirroring the way I look or they look puzzled like " what's wrong"? Anyway I'm only speculating in your case so unless you ask her we'll probably never really know.

~Yhaceed

 

[Hue]

Bump.

This just happened to me again. Smiling, physical contact, I smelled her musk at one point. Mostly good compliance, some resistance and wouldn't go beyond kissing.

I asked her, "you're not really into the whole looking at people thing are you? (; " and she said it's because it's something about my eyes she can't describe. Then said she thinks it's because they're piercing.

When she became fully non-compliant I got up and said it's cool for her to leave with her friends. I came back and there wasn't a whole lot of talking. She got her shoes back on and said "are you gonna walk me out?" with a lustful look in her eyes and I go "ohh now you're looking at me (; ...you know where the door is". She smiles and makes a slightly weird face then goes "okay you're being weird" and walked out.

Any thoughts? I get my last comment could be perceived as slightly bitter but this is confusing to me. Glances of eye contact, everything else there, hard resistance to hooking up.


Hue

 

[trashKENNUT]

Hue,

Any thoughts? I get my last comment could be perceived as slightly bitter but this is confusing to me. Glances of eye contact, everything else there, hard resistance to hooking up.

How "High" level women wins frame battles. "Low level, ugly" women do it in negs. They do it the other way

You say it doesn't look like it, right? That's the whole fucking idea.

Then said she thinks it's because they're piercing.

Women have 2 fears. And this was amplified when i told a flirty girl that she was having a 'hate men' phase because her hair was short. Basically, i outframe her and flip the script, while still being warm.

1)Fear of getting wrecked by "real" man
2)Fear of recognizing that you never really as good as you were

Number 1 is very real but don't let women fool you. They can survive anything. Also, they asking for investment.
Number 2 is ego protection.

Research, women turning their backs on me when i show weakness + more research, shows that a women rather believe Jesus is real, than to entertain the fact that Jesus is not real. An analogy.

That's also why Girls presumably are either nutty or sane.

Actually it is her area of 'competence', per se. Her area revolves around her 3 variables, which in the past, if you see my mindmaps, it is explain there. So yea: (experiences/tribe/approval + skills/resources + purpose/father/god and feeling)

What Older men who has game, knows: LEt Women ASSUME That They WIn
What Older men who has no game, knows: Let WOmen Win by saying SORRY SORRY UNTIL YOUR GRAVE.

Secrets of life eh?

Zac

 

[Hue]

Zac,

Your English is a little hard to follow a lot of times but this is what I think you're saying.

How "High" level women wins frame battles. "Low level, ugly" women do it in negs. They do it the other way

You say it doesn't look like it, right? That's the whole fucking idea.

She doesn't look at me to stay in her "I'm in control" / "I'm the superior" frame because she's trying to display a high quality frame.

Low level women do it by talking shit and being bitchy? I'm not sure I totally agree with the exclusivity of those conditions, but there are definitely different ways to test guys' frames.

1)Fear of getting wrecked by "real" man
2)Fear of recognizing that you never really as good as you were

Number 1 is very real but don't let women fool you. They can survive anything. Also, they asking for investment.
Number 2 is ego protection.

1). Fear of being out-framed because that means their frame is weaker than yours?
2). Fear of jumping in the bed too early with a guy, then being disappointed when they find out it was smoke & mirrors / not all he appeared to be, which would lower their perception of their value & worth (judgement, impulsivity, etc).

Actually it is her area of 'competence', per se. Her area revolves around her 3 variables, which in the past, if you see my mindmaps, it is explain there. So yea: (experiences/tribe/approval + skills/resources + purpose/father/god and feeling)

Which of these womanly values does competence fall under? And what do you mean by competence?

What Older men who has game, knows: LEt Women ASSUME That They WIn

Making women feel like they were in control and made the decision to sleep with you (ultimately, they are), while not compromising your frame.


Hard for me to draw clear insights from your reply, but in general I think the message is that she doesn't hand out eye contact in order to hold her frame, knowing that she might lose her frame by giving you too much eye contact out of either respect (only giving people attention that are "as high of value as she") or the emotional impact that looking deep into somebody might have on her? (though the last one seems like a kinda irrational and lacks parsimony)

Hue

 

[Sandman]

I've had this a few times as well. There are girls when you look at them, they get flustered, they say "stop looking at me like that" but they smile. Then there are girls who don't even look at you, they tell you that your eye contact is intense and genuinely want you to stop eye contact.

I genuinely don't know what's it with the second category either. And some of them were warm to me like your girl and some of them were cold. But I find these girls a little weird and awkard (even if otherwise they seem cool). I think they are not so used to eye-contact in general and when we give them strong eye contact they get uncomfortable. We are so used to it by now, we don't even realize that our eye contact is strong, remember most people don't do as much eye contact as us and when they they do, it's a weaker variety (their attention go between eyes).

 

[Hue]

I've had this a few times as well. There are girls when you look at them, they get flustered, they say "stop looking at me like that" but they smile. Then there are girls who don't even look at you, they tell you that your eye contact is intense and genuinely want you to stop eye contact.

I genuinely don't know what's it with the second category either. And some of them were warm to me like your girl and some of them were cold. But I find these girls a little weird and awkard (even if otherwise they seem cool). I think they are not so used to eye-contact in general and when we give them strong eye contact they get uncomfortable. We are so used to it by now, we don't even realize that our eye contact is strong, remember most people don't do as much eye contact as us and when they they do, it's a weaker variety (their attention go between eyes)

That's a good point. I'm very used to eye contact being a server and having been learning game for... close to 2 years now(?), and can't expect everyone else to be as used to it as me.

Overall this girl was a little on the weird side, but I just assumed she wasn't comfortable yet or was testing me in some sort of way.

Maybe it's important to remember that girls aren't always acting deceptively or in a way to poke at you and see what you do, and sometimes it's just them being weird lol - I might be taking some things a little too seriously.

 

[trashKENNUT]

Hue,

She doesn't look at me to stay in her "I'm in control" / "I'm the superior" frame because she's trying to display a high quality frame.

Low level women do it by talking shit and being bitchy?

The easy answer is yes.

Here's the hard answer. I would not say high quality frame. But imagine this. Imagine Hue and Zac meets for the first time. They in a work place or.... in a place where they be there for an unknown duration. So you tend to need some 'stabilization'.

Roles, is a better word. This is the psychology part.

But then there's the principle part. below.
I also need to know your precedent with her, whether she likely likes you or not, and is the environment/tribe has her friends or some hot ass guy ogling her and she finds it interesting.

'm not sure I totally agree with the exclusivity of those conditions, but there are definitely different ways to test guys' frames.

I agree.

Here's 3 things when there is a feeling that she is testing a guy frame:

1)Is she horny?
2)Girls don't know that they are ball busting a guy/frame battle because she is used to getting her way, and in the 21th century, oh every girl thinks they...
3)Hate men Phase

To find out which one, COMPLIANCE

Fuck, i didn't know i reveal this. I am Thor, God of Thunder. STORM BREAKER!!!!

1). Fear of being out-framed because that means their frame is weaker than yours?

Not really. Just that you are men. and she is a women.

2). Fear of jumping in the bed too early with a guy, then being disappointed when they find out it was smoke & mirrors / not all he appeared to be, which would lower their perception of their value & worth (judgement, impulsivity, etc).

Yeap, the more beautiful she is, the more i find it very real. Quite profound really.

Which of these womanly values does competence fall under? And what do you mean by competence?

Her AREA OF COMPETENCE is the middle of all the 3 variables (the triangle)

Making women feel like they were in control and made the decision to sleep with you (ultimately, they are), while not compromising your frame.

Yeap, but it is more of like seeing girls actions as pros and cons. Just make sure she don't do crazy negatives, but also making sure that it is 3:1 in favor of positives.

This is what Chase will do, and guys who have success in their lifes. You see MArk Cuban operate in the headspace of probabilities, analyzing skill set, the person and make a decision.

I think that's the difference between a high level guy and an advanced guy.

1)Principles (law of gravity, women like sex, etc)
2)Fundamentals (Who you are, body language)
3)PRocess (skillset)
4)Environment (assemble a team of expensive superstars, have guys telling your potential girlfriend that your cock is holy moses, etc)
5)Rationalizations (basically recognizing that all of this is bullshit.

This is what i constitute as a high level elite guy. Ppl can call me bullshit, but when you honest, you learn to see things you never knew.

knowing that she might lose her frame by giving you too much eye contact out of either respect (only giving people attention that are "as high of value as she")

or the emotional impact that looking deep into somebody might have on her? (though the last one seems like a kinda irrational and lacks parsimony)

Yes, it is irrational and lacks resources?

But put it in 2 ways. Choose one or maybe give me something.

1)Every girl knows that they are not innocent. A man who aspires to conquer the world. Would he not see the world, like Neo?

2)the head of every man is women and the head of man is Christ. The head of Christ is Man. - Corinthians

IF you are a girl, and the world tells you that you can do anything. and suddenly you meet Hue, a man, who either reach nothingness or he is point 1, would you question your existence and feel that your life was built on false foundation?

I know it's out there, but i am sorry. This is me telling you factually what i see.

Zac

 

[Hue]

1)Is she horny?
2)Girls don't know that they are ball busting a guy/frame battle because she is used to getting her way, and in the 21th century, oh every girl thinks they...
3)Hate men Phase

She was horny (I smelled her musk) and I feel like this girl is used to getting her way, and her compliance was staggering so that makes sense.

Her AREA OF COMPETENCE is the middle of all the 3 variables (the triangle)

So is that how much she acts (or seems to act) as an independent unit rather than be swayed by factors like Tribes & Worldviews? If so, then I feel like that would come with more experienced women, given that she's being compliant. That her competence of her own interests (she's horny, you passed her tests, you're high value) becomes easier when all those factors are either being disregarded because of your impact on her or she's comfortable with her own decisions in that regard.

I like the use of your diagram, interesting stuff Zac. To think of all these factors in state (or to understand them) may be what separates advanced guys from others.


Hue

 

[trashKENNUT]

Hue,

Think of it this way. I try not to make this as nuance as possible.

The better your fundamentals are, the more she gets her power from you, which means your influence on her. As in the diagram, women operate at the bottom, the feel.

While as Men, you operate from the purpose, object, one thought, the male.

Another sidenote:
-Why Fathers are important. He's the prior to where women operates
-Why Fundamentals are important: You are prior to her

But you and her, fundamentally have your own mindmap per se.

Which is also why women can influence you into marriages or businesses manage to sell you with advertising. They often use feeling or passion business.

Because fundamentally, we live in a world of causality, and your next step of process is passion/feeeeeeelllllll.

and so on.

This is the full diagram for dating:

Hope my post helps.

Zac