Why are most guys not utterly obsessed with seduction?

[WierdDough]

This is a rather odd thing… if we were talking sales (for example) and some beginner guy came here asking how to get sales and then he got bombarded with discussions about value creation, profit margins, churn rate and product/market fit… then I am pretty sure he would be way more open to accept he is unsophisticated and commit to learn the nuances of the trade.

I think the fact that seduction puts you in a situation of trying to objectively gauge your sexual market value makes a lot of guys auto-reject.

You are talking about learning in general, I was referring to specific situations, which is how most normal people talk about sex and dating. People generally want a plan of action, just look at fitness for example. Finding a workout plan, or attending a session is enough for most people, they don´t want nor need deeper knowledge than that. Same is true for people finding the seduction community.

Btw, you dont think that "a situation of trying to objectively gauge.." sounds kinda wierd? I write shit like that all the time as well, but it´s not made for real world conversations. Which is my point.

 

[iceberg slim]

They would rather jump off a cliff than cold approach women. Let alone risk rejection or leading a woman.

I think that this is the core issue: there is a deep emotional aversion to cold approach built into men's brains--which we call approach anxiety. This aversion is so strong that it is enough to prevent most men from pursuing (or even considering) seduction. Only a small number are willing to confront this deep rooted fear, for whatever reason.

Why does this fear exist? I've heard various reasons like that our reptile brain thinks that women we don't know belong to rival alphas who will be violent to us if we approach their women. My guess is that it is linked to a well known and widely shared fear: public speaking. Humans are terrified of embarrassment/rejection, the reason for which seems clear: in our tribal past (the context in which we evolved as a species), if we did something really embarrassing and our tribe kicked us out, we were almost certainly dead at the hand of rival tribes or hungry predators. So there is a deep fear of cold approach linked to that which all organisms most want to avoid: death. Thus, almost no guys do it.

It's pretty silly if you think about it. An anachronistic emotion hanging around in our brains from times long gone is preventing guys from approaching the lovely female members of their species who are walking around looking cute all over the place. I think most guys deeply want to approach, but that desire is blocked by fear. Chase has written eloquently about this. And what the journey of seduction is, partially at least, is the discovery that there isn't much, if anything, to fear! It's really quite beautiful and amazing.

The second issue in my opinion is that, in addition to being blocked by fear, there is the significant challenge of actually getting good at the game. It takes a lot of time, energy and failure, which is enough to whittle down the guys who pursue seduction to an even smaller number. There are so many distractions (porn, social media, netflix, alcohol and drugs) and pressures (feeling the need to "fit in" to a social group, prove yourself through money, "success" and a nice car, be a "cool" invulnerable dude who can't admit that you need to work on your dating skills) that most guys don't have the time, energy, focus and self honesty required to actually get up and running with seduction.

 

[ulrich]

Btw, you dont think that "a situation of trying to objectively gauge.." sounds kinda wierd? I write shit like that all the time as well, but it´s not made for real world conversations. Which is my point.

Yeah, I get your point. But I hardly think we got many fresh out beginners reading this exact forum post.

If you’re really a newbie, you’re probably hanging around an Instagram page, Skool community or Girls Chase blog.
The forum audience is more sophisticated and I express myself accordingly.

This is a forum, at the end of the day… some of these discussions are meant to be high level…. otherwise, where would high level concepts be discussed?

 

[Will_V]

Also, being caught as someone who learns techniques to get laid is a social no no.

Yeah, this is a fact. People are simply uncomfortable with the idea of using techniques in relation to sex or relationships. Some of that is because of how it can be used negatively, and some of it has to do with the way that sex is framed by social norms and cultural reinforcement.

The way I see it, there's nothing weird per se about using technicalities in seduction - it's very mainstream at the moment to be applying high level techniques to sales, work culture, negotiation, self-improvement, and all sorts of other psychology-related things.

The problem is that the regulation of sex has always been the purview of society - even when that regulation appears to be a lack of regulation, the hidden frames and rules around it are still being managed carefully. Sexual opportunity is the main yoke that society has over men in general.

You're supposed to receive sex as a reward for being the man that society wants you to be. And when a culture liberates sex, it does so with a shift in power dynamics away from the average man. Sexual freedom is not the freedom for men to learn seduction, it's the freedom for women to have more fun out in the open, and in doing so, apply more pressure to the average man. It's a pressure-regulation mechanism.

Societies have always used women to control men. Women are by nature very conformist, especially in their public-facing life, and that's one of the reasons why matriarchal relationships are stable - society sets the rules, women follow them, and men obey the woman. It's very stable because the man is the only agent of uncertainty and possible disobedience/revolution, and if he's at the bottom of the hierarchy, it's hard for him to upset anything. And sexual freedom helps to achieve this by giving the woman a lot of power through the whole life cycle of the relationship, because the more helpless a dude feels due to the woman's relative power and choice, the more he's willing to accept terms that put him further at the bottom of the hierarchy.

But if that sexual freedom went the other way - a dude learning how to seduce and get more of what he wants without giving away his control - that wouldn't help society to control him, quite the opposite.

I find it very interesting that along with seduction, there is another taboo, which is using psychological techniques in relation to the development of your kids. It's funny because all relationships between people require using psychological techniques to manage, whether you are aware of them or not, but the two that are most heavily tabooed are the ones that relate to a man's influence over his immediate domain - his woman and his kids - and these areas - sexual culture and education - are also the ones that societies invest heavily in their control of.

 

[Skills]

A lot of the things mentioned has always been like that since the beginning:

- guys just want a girlfriend
- Guys don't do cold approached because aa and fear of rejection
- guys are awkward who come to pua
- it is a niche and underground
- learning tech is weird and for autist

has always been like that..... I just think tbh:

- more people have gone from cold approach to online and social media, were rejection is perceived easier than in person...
- guys are more into digital media vs being outside which has made guys a bit softer
- more easy access to porn
- guys are not getting the references experiences that other gens got with women...

-top guys don't see an incentive to post in public forums, they already got the validation, and there is barely money to be made if any and the ones that are passionate got bored or went into niche groups or just charging for info. with coaching or paid groups.... The innovators or ogs are too old now and retired, the new gen of "gurus" is just water down version/ kmart version of what the ogs too repackage into no calories to borderline bastardization...

- ogs are also time machine seducers that are repeating shit that does not even apply to today cause they are old and not really sarging or can't relate to new gen z (again no sarging).... nothing wrong with this, it happens and it happens in every industry..... Who follows Arnold fitness advice anymore...

- most good guys hang out in their own niche underground groups vs forum...
- red pill took a lot of the puas switching for $ and that was even more water down, deluded, bastardized and now destroyed (red pill is rip)
- all manospher is done, pua rip, blackpill rip, red pill rip, mgtow rip, mrm rip... they are all rip

Some people happy "more women for us", but imho is bad...... If women are not getting peak experiences with men at clubs, or online, is not good, cause they will just stop showing up in clubs, not log in online etc... And then again how many women is enough for the guys that are getting them, while the women not getting attractive men or settling, and guys not getting laid...

At the end of the day, we can control what we can control, worry about you getting better, and trying to follow and associate with guys that can help you or get you better..... No point in finding out why other men don't care about seduction other than you hope the few guys that are good stick around and don't banish...

With that being said we can say the same thing about:

- why guys no obsessed with money
- why guys no obsessed with fitness

etc... Commonality hard if you don't have right strategies or people give up, or people don't do what it takes or a combination and top guys in industry network with top guys not with newer people anyways...

With that being said tldr all manosphere movements have rip, due to youtube censorship after the rsd destruction, most seduction is demonetized, shadow banned, etc...

I almost forgot the new popular guys representing seduction for example in youtube are just repulsive, or not guys that "oh shit i wish i was like that guy" they are mostly repulsively or marketers and people can see through that, which does not help the cause...

^ guys using platform to trash other "seduction teachers" killing credibility of movement as a whole.... Everyone confuse on what "role masculine model" to follow, or imitate since "is he legit?" or "another scammer?" as a results of in fighting, scandals etc...

Shit forgot something information overload, so much info. overload and contradictory that can confuse people in general, but that is with every industry anyways...

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Yeh

A lot of the things mentioned has always been like that since the beginning:

- guys just want a girlfriend
- Guys don't do cold approached because aa and fear of rejection
- guys are awkward who come to pua
- it is a niche and underground
- learning tech is weird and for autist

has always been like that..... I just think tbh:

- more people have gone from cold approach to online and social media, were rejection is perceived easier than in person...
- guys are more into digital media vs being outside which has made guys a bit softer
- more easy access to porn
- guys are not getting the references experiences that other gens got with women...

-top guys don't see an incentive to post in public forums, they already got the validation, and there is barely money to be made if any and the ones that are passionate got bored or went into niche groups or just charging for info. with coaching or paid groups.... The innovators or ogs are too old now and retired, the new gen of "gurus" is just water down version/ kmart version of what the ogs too repackage into no calories to borderline bastardization...

- ogs are also time machine seducers that are repeating shit that does not even apply to today cause they are old and not really sarging or can't relate to new gen z (again no sarging).... nothing wrong with this, it happens and it happens in every industry..... Who follows Arnold fitness advice anymore...

- most good guys hang out in their own niche underground groups vs forum...
- red pill took a lot of the puas switching for $ and that was even more water down, deluded, bastardized and now destroyed (red pill is rip)
- all manospher is done, pua rip, blackpill rip, red pill rip, mgtow rip, mrm rip... they are all rip

Some people happy "more women for us", but imho is bad...... If women are not getting peak experiences with men at clubs, or online, is not good, cause they will just stop showing up in clubs, not log in online etc... And then again how many women is enough for the guys that are getting them, while the women not getting attractive men or settling, and guys not getting laid...

At the end of the day, we can control what we can control, worry about you getting better, and trying to follow and associate with guys that can help you or get you better..... No point in finding out why other men don't care about seduction other than you hope the few guys that are good stick around and don't banish...

With that being said we can say the same thing about:

- why guys no obsessed with money
- why guys no obsessed with fitness

etc... Commonality hard if you don't have right strategies or people give up, or people don't do what it takes or a combination and top guys in industry network with top guys not with newer people anyways...

With that being said tldr all manosphere movements have rip, due to youtube censorship after the rsd destruction, most seduction is demonetized, shadow banned, etc...

I almost forgot the new popular guys representing seduction for example in youtube are just repulsive, or not guys that "oh shit i wish i was like that guy" they are mostly repulsively or marketers and people can see through that, which does not help the cause...

^ guys using platform to trash other "seduction teachers" killing credibility of movement as a whole.... Everyone confuse on what "role masculine model" to follow, or imitate since "is he legit?" or "another scammer?" as a results of in fighting, scandals etc...

Shit forgot something information overload, so much info. overload and contradictory that can confuse people in general, but that is with every industry anyways...

A lot of the things mentioned has always been like that since the beginning:

- guys just want a girlfriend
- Guys don't do cold approached because aa and fear of rejection
- guys are awkward who come to pua
- it is a niche and underground
- learning tech is weird and for autist

has always been like that..... I just think tbh:

- more people have gone from cold approach to online and social media, were rejection is perceived easier than in person...
- guys are more into digital media vs being outside which has made guys a bit softer
- more easy access to porn
- guys are not getting the references experiences that other gens got with women...

-top guys don't see an incentive to post in public forums, they already got the validation, and there is barely money to be made if any and the ones that are passionate got bored or went into niche groups or just charging for info. with coaching or paid groups.... The innovators or ogs are too old now and retired, the new gen of "gurus" is just water down version/ kmart version of what the ogs too repackage into no calories to borderline bastardization...

- ogs are also time machine seducers that are repeating shit that does not even apply to today cause they are old and not really sarging or can't relate to new gen z (again no sarging).... nothing wrong with this, it happens and it happens in every industry..... Who follows Arnold fitness advice anymore...

- most good guys hang out in their own niche underground groups vs forum...
- red pill took a lot of the puas switching for $ and that was even more water down, deluded, bastardized and now destroyed (red pill is rip)
- all manospher is done, pua rip, blackpill rip, red pill rip, mgtow rip, mrm rip... they are all rip

Some people happy "more women for us", but imho is bad...... If women are not getting peak experiences with men at clubs, or online, is not good, cause they will just stop showing up in clubs, not log in online etc... And then again how many women is enough for the guys that are getting them, while the women not getting attractive men or settling, and guys not getting laid...

At the end of the day, we can control what we can control, worry about you getting better, and trying to follow and associate with guys that can help you or get you better..... No point in finding out why other men don't care about seduction other than you hope the few guys that are good stick around and don't banish...

With that being said we can say the same thing about:

- why guys no obsessed with money
- why guys no obsessed with fitness

etc... Commonality hard if you don't have right strategies or people give up, or people don't do what it takes or a combination and top guys in industry network with top guys not with newer people anyways...

With that being said tldr all manosphere movements have rip, due to youtube censorship after the rsd destruction, most seduction is demonetized, shadow banned, etc...

I almost forgot the new popular guys representing seduction for example in youtube are just repulsive, or not guys that "oh shit i wish i was like that guy" they are mostly repulsively or marketers and people can see through that, which does not help the cause...

^ guys using platform to trash other "seduction teachers" killing credibility of movement as a whole.... Everyone confuse on what "role masculine model" to follow, or imitate since "is he legit?" or "another scammer?" as a results of in fighting, scandals etc...

Shit forgot something information overload, so much info. overload and contradictory that can confuse people in general, but that is with every industry anyways...

Yeah you pretty much nailed all the key points.

Information overload mixed with wrong/contrary information is probably top 2. Thanks to red pill and guys who aren't that skilled posting infields.

The movement of good guys to underground groups is also a factor. If the real good guys don't post in public then all that's left in public is bad information

I think incentivizing OGs or skilled seducers to post is a great idea to get quality material back there. I believe there's money to be made cause many guys struggle. The thing is most skilled guys & OGs don't know how to market themselves or their knowledge properly.

Flaking numbers, getting better dates/lays from online, pulling from dates, day game, texting... are still big issues guys have till today. Quality paid products/posts/articles that address these issues would go a long way with the right marketing

 

[Atlas IV]

Well, I didn't expect to get such a variety of responses to this! This is why I love this community.

I’m learning with experience and as my skills improve that on the path of mastering this skill i’ve actually “overclocked” myself for the majority of women - it’s easy to overwhelm their experience with what i’m capable of and i often have to tone it down or bail on alot of women because I’m too much for them to manage.

This is interesting. I've always been so focused on improving game that it's worth taking a step back to consider the question "how much is enough?" At some point, it becomes more than you need to seduce most girls.

Most guys are taught from very early on to see relationships through the second lens, and they revert to this thinking hard the more victimized they feel. So they often have not got their heads anywhere near seduction - in fact they are trying to calculate some logical, reliable framework for acquiring women based on some equation of social value and intrinsic deservingness. The idea of other guys shortcutting their way to sex and relationships, by creating intense and exciting emotional experiences for the woman, grates on them hard, and this is the psychological basis for the red pill vs. chad war.

Great point here. A lot of the red pill stuff comes from a place of feeling victimized, which is not at all what truth-based seduction is about. Most guys don't want to accept that the problem is them, not the world.

Used to be, but not anymore!
Most guys in South America are pussies too.
Even Brazil, who had a fame for exporting bold sexy guys, has become a chump's paradise

I can attest to this too. In every country I've witnessed guys who are disastrously uncalibrated with women. Seems like social media is the great equalizer in that everyone is collectively losing their social skills at the same time.

I think that this is the core issue: there is a deep emotional aversion to cold approach built into men's brains--which we call approach anxiety. This aversion is so strong that it is enough to prevent most men from pursuing (or even considering) seduction. Only a small number are willing to confront this deep rooted fear, for whatever reason.

Good point. It's especially hard to overcome this fear nowadays when online dating is so accessible and people are glued to social media.

I almost forgot the new popular guys representing seduction for example in youtube are just repulsive, or not guys that "oh shit i wish i was like that guy" they are mostly repulsively or marketers and people can see through that, which does not help the cause...

^ guys using platform to trash other "seduction teachers" killing credibility of movement as a whole.... Everyone confuse on what "role masculine model" to follow, or imitate since "is he legit?" or "another scammer?" as a results of in fighting, scandals etc...

I've noticed this too. A lot of pseudo-PUA content creators with disclaimers like "This is not pickup" as if they're teaching something more exalted than us, then doing cringe "freestyle" cold approaches. No wonder most guys are turned off it when that's they're first impression of pickup.

My takeaway from these perspectives is that I think it's better that truth-based pickup stays a secret society thing. There are few key pain point skills (like texting) that most guys could definitely benefit from a systematic approach. But the majority aren't and never will be interested in taking seduction seriously overall. We are definitely the outliers here, and I guess that explains why our community is as small as it is.

 

[DarkKnight]

Imagine wanting help with a particular situation, and being met with nonsense talk about frame control or push pull techniques. Our talk is pretty autistic at times.

Also, being caught as someone who learns techniques to get laid is a social no no. Hence why so many guys instead try to improve themselves by means of looks, wealth, status and so on.

This is true... I have really disliked how some pua types write in arcane languages as if I am applying to be a lvl 244 archmage instead of a guy who wants to get laid. Luckily Chase has very well written articles and Teevster is also very academic in writing, let alone Gunwitch who is very down to earth. But Pua can get really ridicilous at times with the mysticism and guru behavior.. personally I really hate that

Another big barrier is women in general being very hard to predict. I talked to a girl yesterday and she seemed to want none of it, today she came up to me engaged me pretty hard and I number closed her (it was during my work, so I cannot instant date before everyone jumps on me). Anyway I am used to such things happening, or girls behaving like they hate you and 3 months later become smitten.

You cannot expect the average guy who is only thinking in terms of LMS to understand this chaotic behavior. Even I am still surprised at things happening or not happening and I think I am doing this for a long time now and do a lot of post mortems. The ups and downs of pickup can make a guy go loony.

Men like predictability and this business is not predictable at all. Even basic tech like Value Attainability Compliance. Women keep shifting with their emotions and they are definitely reacting to something but it is not like I have a bird view of my life to understand everything that is going on, let alone the guy who believes that attraction= getting laid

I also think this is the reason why so many bullshit youtube gurus have marketing success, basically they sell

attraction= getting laid. While we know it is much more complex

@Skills just read your last post damn man very good write up. I think basically you wrote the meta

 

[POB]

Some people happy "more women for us", but imho is bad...... If women are not getting peak experiences with men at clubs, or online, is not good, cause they will just stop showing up in clubs, not log in online etc... And then again how many women is enough for the guys that are getting them, while the women not getting attractive men or settling, and guys not getting laid...

I see A LOT of this on a daily!
Double edged sword for sure.

I almost forgot the new popular guys representing seduction for example in youtube are just repulsive, or not guys that "oh shit i wish i was like that guy" they are mostly repulsively or marketers and people can see through that, which does not help the cause...

Feel bad for young studs who are insterested in seduction and get their first contact through those douches

^ guys using platform to trash other "seduction teachers" killing credibility of movement as a whole.... Everyone confuse on what "role masculine model" to follow, or imitate since "is he legit?" or "another scammer?" as a results of in fighting, scandals etc...

Community has imploded tbh
Now a bunch of clueless wannabes like you said, and ogs going their own way
This is the last fort standing for healthy and productive discussions

Shit forgot something information overload, so much info. overload and contradictory that can confuse people in general, but that is with every industry anyways...

Bad information overload, which leads to conflictiing advice
Good information gets lost and is swalowed in the stream of "magic bullets"
It's the blind leadind the blind

 

[Bismarck]

Interesting thread and some great responses so far.

I would take a more nuanced perspective when pondering this. To begin with, there are many ways to skin a cat. The person I've met IRL who has had the most success as a player was a handsome blue-eyed buff blonde Texan, who at age 29 when I met him was already clocking in at close to 300 notches.

During the time I interacted with him back in 2016, what I gathered from his lifestyle was that he worked to be in a good mood all the time, that he was a very social guy (he volunteered to help exchange students go to parties), and he used traditional jock game.

Though he kept chats with his other buddies (presumably from high school/college, where I suppose he was in a fraternity/in the sports team) where they discussed ways to fuck close chicks, this guy, that I know of, never ventured into a seduction forum in his life.

Re. the current clime, it is important to underline that the unhelpful indoctrination of the next generation of Casanovas begins at a young age with all the progressive trash being force-fed to the youth. As I've had a chance to write elsewhere, one domain where this is evident is that of motion pictures.

The most common themes are toxic masculinity (rapists, misogynists), gay (homosexual men, lesbian women) love, and women heroes who exhibit masculine behavior/traits). There are no more movies where boys can observe solid masculine role models (check my thread "Thoughts about recent movies" for some good picks).

But this phenomenon has also infected academia (whence it sprung), MSM, TV shows (Netflix, etc.), the corporate world, etc.

Finally, regarding "coaches": even Robert Glover, who was a tremendous help in my journey with his tome "No More Mr. Nice Guy," if you listen to him in the Modern Wisdom podcast, advocates that you shouldn't approach chicks just because they're hot lol.

I agree with some of what he says, i.e. he generally seems to defend an indirect approach when meeting girls. However, he is a good example of someone who can still make money in the mainstream because he doesn't advocate a hedonistic lifestyle of fucking as many hot chicks as possible.