Why most men are pussies ?

[RedNeck]

I am serious. Why most men are pussies?!
They never stand up for themselves.
They restore to a passive-aggressive attitude.
They never confront
They can't decide.
They let their wives kick their asses
and the list goes on.

And it is prevalent in Western culture. One explanation Chase pointed out is that men grow up in Western societies, believing that the system will protect them. Therefore, they always follow the process while in other cultures they know the system is corrupt so they have to take matters into their own hands.

I am really interested to hear your thoughts, folks.

 

[Bill]

I think men evolved to resolve conflicts physically, since that has been (mostly) taken off the table they are forced to repress such aspects and take on a more relationally aggressive approach. Even just being direct verbally xan be punished harshly with reputational damage.

Another explanation is the idea we evolved for social status hierarchies in small tribes, so as you feel lower status you repress yourself more and more for fear of endangering yourself (tall poppy gets cut), but we in a sense live in one massive tribe today so most guys feel extremely repressed because subconsciously it is interpreted as a massive pecking order with tons of higher ups.

 

[ulrich]

You can be conflict avoidant, conflict pursuant or everything in between.

If you’re not going to bother in learning the nuance or you lack example to learn from (as most men do), you’re going to end up in one of the extreme camps.
If choosing from only the extremes, it is safer to avoid conflict than to pursue it.

Being conflict avoidant is not the best option for you in terms of results or enjoyment but it is the best option if you want to minimize your mental power expenditure while maximizing your safety.

In my experience, lot of things in society can be explained with “people don’t even bother thinking things through”.

 

[Surveyor]

Why most men are pussies?

Are they really?

They never stand up for themselves.

Try browbeating the next guy shorter than u on the street into something and see what happens.

They restore to a passive-aggressive attitude.

Haven’t seen this

They never confront

If you really believe this, mess with some randos and find out

They can't decide.

No idea what ur talking about

They let their wives kick their asses

Those cases are more to do with a lack of intellectual or social cunning than weakness. When you’re pair bonded to a woman, esp if the relationship is good, she has some power over you. Men who can resist this have always been a minority, except in societies that straight-up devalue women. History shows repeatedly that most manly men in many societies could be swayed by their wives/mistresses/lovers to do all sorts of things.

And it is prevalent in Western culture.

Go to the right neighborhood in London, New York, Chicago, LA, anywhere else, doesn’t matter, and try to…experimentally verify your hypothesis. You’ll soon see the truth.

One explanation Chase pointed out is that men grow up in Western societies, believing that the system will protect them.

That isn’t the phenomenon he was explaining though.

Therefore, they always follow the process while in other cultures they know the system is corrupt so they have to take matters into their own hands.

It has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with cultural values. Get into an argument with some guys from other cultures and you’ll see.

The fact is that Western men, on average, are still way more openly assertive and aggressive than half the world’s men.

I think men evolved to resolve conflicts physically

Well as a last resort, sure, but if men had evolved to primarily use their fists we’d either be stuck in the stone age or living under a global matriarchy.

since that has been (mostly) taken off the table they are forced to repress such aspects and take on a more relationally aggressive approach.

I don’t really get this. Not much has changed. Appeal to authority sometimes replaces physical violence, but the initial steps are all the same.

Even just being direct verbally xan be punished harshly with reputational damage.

This part is valid but it’s hardly new and has more to do with women. And the influence of women isn’t new; any society that doesn’t have either gender segregation day to day or women-as-chattel is gonna have that.

Another explanation is the idea we evolved for social status hierarchies in small tribes

The common assumption that prehistory was more like Conan the Barbarian than anything else is totally BS. In fact, the terms “hierarchy” and “small tribe” are virtually oxymorons.
Humans appear to have had the following things, among many others, for significantly longer than hierarchy:
-Dogs
-Long-distance trade
-Mining
-Wind instruments
-Naked-eye astronomy
-Pottery
-Circumcision
-Sewing
These are just the ones that aren’t really debated. A lot of other inventions, like bread, come from societies subject to scholarly debate about whether they had a hierarchy.

so as you feel lower status you repress yourself more and more for fear of endangering yourself

Nah. Power may come into it, but not status. And with high enough stakes any healthy man will fight.

(tall poppy gets cut)

Not what that means. Actually it’s a way to keep people from getting too high status and lording it over everyone else. I hear it’s a big thing in Australia.

but we in a sense live in one massive tribe today so most guys feel extremely repressed because subconsciously it is interpreted as a massive pecking order with tons of higher ups.

…

I’m surprised you haven’t heard of Nietzsche. At least he was better able to point out the problems than this thread.

 

[topcat]

Are they really?

Try browbeating the next guy shorter than u on the street into something and see what happens.

Haven’t seen this

If you really believe this, mess with some randos and find out

No idea what ur talking about

Those cases are more to do with a lack of intellectual or social cunning than weakness. When you’re pair bonded to a woman, esp if the relationship is good, she has some power over you. Men who can resist this have always been a minority, except in societies that straight-up devalue women. History shows repeatedly that most manly men in many societies could be swayed by their wives/mistresses/lovers to do all sorts of things.

Go to the right neighborhood in London, New York, Chicago, LA, anywhere else, doesn’t matter, and try to…experimentally verify your hypothesis. You’ll soon see the truth.

That isn’t the phenomenon he was explaining though.

It has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with cultural values. Get into an argument with some guys from other cultures and you’ll see.

The fact is that Western men, on average, are still way more openly assertive and aggressive than half the world’s men.

Well as a last resort, sure, but if men had evolved to primarily use their fists we’d either be stuck in the stone age or living under a global matriarchy.

I don’t really get this. Not much has changed. Appeal to authority sometimes replaces physical violence, but the initial steps are all the same.

This part is valid but it’s hardly new and has more to do with women. And the influence of women isn’t new; any society that doesn’t have either gender segregation day to day or women-as-chattel is gonna have that.

The common assumption that prehistory was more like Conan the Barbarian than anything else is totally BS. In fact, the terms “hierarchy” and “small tribe” are virtually oxymorons.
Humans appear to have had the following things, among many others, for significantly longer than hierarchy:
-Dogs
-Long-distance trade
-Mining
-Wind instruments
-Naked-eye astronomy
-Pottery
-Circumcision
-Sewing
These are just the ones that aren’t really debated. A lot of other inventions, like bread, come from societies subject to scholarly debate about whether they had a hierarchy.

Nah. Power may come into it, but not status. And with high enough stakes any healthy man will fight.

Not what that means. Actually it’s a way to keep people from getting too high status and lording it over everyone else. I hear it’s a big thing in Australia.

…

I’m surprised you haven’t heard of Nietzsche. At least he was better able to point out the problems than this thread.

excellent

 

[RedNeck]

@Surveyor no thanks . I don’t need to go to the “ right neighborhood” it is probably a ghetto. My right neighborhood is where I live .

 

[Will_V]

I am serious. Why most men are pussies?!
They never stand up for themselves.
They restore to a passive-aggressive attitude.
They never confront
They can't decide.
They let their wives kick their asses
and the list goes on.

And it is prevalent in Western culture. One explanation Chase pointed out is that men grow up in Western societies, believing that the system will protect them. Therefore, they always follow the process while in other cultures they know the system is corrupt so they have to take matters into their own hands.

I am really interested to hear your thoughts, folks.

The way I see it, it's very simple. Training.

Society trains you - first your parents, then your parents train you, then society trains you, and so on - to believe and behave a certain way.

People are by nature eminently trainable. It takes a lot more pain and discipline than most people realize to create and maintain even a moderately independent frame of reference.

Instead of this people, simply submit themselves to the training that is given to them from their environment (and the people/institutions in it) since birth, in order to become successful in this environment (which only partially works out that way, since to really become successful in any environment, you must have one foot outside of it).

It is one of the most incredible things, in my opinion, how little importance is given to the early development of human beings. In the earliest stages of life a child is a sponge, soaking up information and absorbing unspoken rules from everywhere around them. It is the point where the groundwork of someone's personality and mode of being is laid, for better or worse. And yet nothing in the mainstream will talk about how to get this right. You are expected to hand your child over to an institution (kindergarten, primary school, etc) where they will obtain their most fundamental frames of reference, and you don't really know how it will turn out - you are taking a gamble that the teachers are not only effective at teaching and have the right agenda, but that they are exceptional people whose latent mode of being is worth absorbing - and in practice their agendas are often questionable and they are typically average people at best.

This is not by accident. A society always wants to coopt the early stages of the development of the people inside it, so that it can transform and shape them. That is why a lot of politics gets injected at the level of education - right now it is mostly at the level of universities, that's why the culture wars are fought there, but from there it slowly seeps down toward high school and primary school. And throughout life, of course, people continue to be shaped, by the media, by their peers, by social 'norms' etc.

So it is very difficult to escape the training that society gives, training which currently (by intention) results in a conformist, weak, confused, and dependent frame of reference, so that people are always easy to lead. And that is why both men and women are today the way they are.

Are they really?

Try browbeating the next guy shorter than u on the street into something and see what happens.
...

Actually it’s a way to keep people from getting too high status and lording it over everyone else. I hear it’s a big thing in Australia.

Funnily enough, as someone who grew up here, australian dudes come across to me in general as simultaneously some of the most easily provoked and also some of the most conformist/submissive you will find. So it's not clear to me that being ready to stand up for yourself physically necessarily translates to being able to stand up for yourself in other ways.

 

[Spyce D]

The common assumption that prehistory was more like Conan the Barbarian than anything else is totally BS.

It seems like people rely more on movies to see what's going on in the world rather than actually living life .

History shows repeatedly that most manly men in many societies could be swayed by their wives/mistresses/lovers to do all sorts of things.

I know a guy who has been in gang related stuff , quite masculine and playboy but still he gets his mind fucked by his ltr . He sometimes smokes ganja otherwise he would cry (whenever they had a fight) .

 

[Freakester]

Fear.

They have been conditioned to feel fear since they were kids.

Be a good boy. Or you will be punished.
Just like Pavlov's dog. This starts from childhood, through school and even in adulthood.

It's sad actually.
Will explained it well.

 

[Will_V]

Fear.

They have been conditioned to feel fear since they were kids.

In my opinion, fear is not exactly the problem. Fear can be useful, it can make you very motivated and capable.

The main tactic of modern education, as I see it, is confusion. When you twist the meaning of words, make certain truths invisible, portray certain things that are instinctively objectionable or disfunctional as normal or even admirable, you end up creating a schism between someone's conscious perception and their internal subconscious points of reference. This makes them very weak, because the internal conflict destroys their energy and their drive. A man is incredibly capable when his mind is clear and laser focused and he is absolutely certain of himself, he can be an engine of construction or destruction. But when he is confused he is weak as a kitten and useless at changing anything around him.

And while someone who is afraid can easily be provoked to respond violently against what they are afraid of, someone who is confused will generally just try to find the easiest way out of that confusion - which is to simply accept and follow the rules and move past it - especially if doing so seems like a path to a clear reward.

In practice it's a combination of both - a vague background fear of the consequences of not toeing the line, and practical confusion about reality.

 

[Freakester]

In my opinion, fear is not exactly the problem. Fear can be useful, it can make you very motivated and capable.

The concrete tactic of modern education, as I see it, is confusion. When you twist the meaning of words, make certain truths invisible, portray certain things that are instinctively objectionable or disfunctional as normal or even admirable, you end up creating a schism between someone's conscious perception and their internal subconscious points of reference. This makes someone very weak, because the internal conflict destroys their energy and their drive. A man is incredibly capable when his mind is clear and laser focused and he is absolutely certain of himself, he can be an engine of construction or destruction. But when he is confused he is weak as a kitten and useless at changing anything around him.

And while someone who is afraid can easily be provoked to respond violently against what they are afraid of, someone who is confused will generally just try to find the easiest way out of that confusion - which is to simply accept and follow the rules and move past it - especially if doing so seems like a path to a clear reward.

Agree that fear can be a good motivation factor.

You make an interesting point. When a man is certain and laser focused, he is incredibly capable. Totally agree with this one.

But would you say when in that state a man is perhaps feels little to no fear than he normally would?

Some guys experience this when they chug a beer in a bar and suddenly their fear of approaching goes away.

I think fear has to do with it to some degree, even if that's not the complete picture. Especially how media and social media propagate negative things.

I know guys who would stay in bad relationships because they are afraid they can't get another girl, let alone one as good as her (in their head).
Or what other people would think.

I have been researching fear since I was young. I always feel fascinated by it. Why do I feel afraid?
That's why my bias towards including it in this thread.

 

[Will_V]

Agree that fear can be a good motivation factor.

You make an interesting point. When a man is certain and laser focused, he is incredibly capable. Totally agree with this one.

But would you say when in that state a man is perhaps feels little to no fear than he normally would?

Interesting. I would say he can definitely feel fear, but he feels little to no anxiety. Fear can be focused and used effectively, but anxiety is borne from confusion or the distant possibility of something fearful happening.

When you're in a fight for example, and your adrenaline is pumping and you're trying to land punches, you can feel intense fear and still be more effective than ever. But if you are confused and anxious, it merely saps your energy, makes it difficult to make decisions, and drives you toward rewards that are not necessarily good for you in the long run.

I think fear has to do with it to some degree, even if that's not the complete picture. Especially how media and social media propagate negative things.

Yes that's true, I added for clarity that while confusion is the main tactic, there is always a background of fear.

The thing is that fear is very volatile, it can throw someone in either direction - submission or opposition - just as easily. That's why the two most effective sources of fear these days - mobbing/cancellation and court cases - are very indistinct and difficult to aim back at, despite being very powerful. So when people are confronted with these threats, they are simply at a loss for any kind of strategy or plan, and feel overwhelmed and helpless.

I know guys who would stay in bad relationships because they are afraid they can't get another girl, let alone one as good as her (in their head).
Or what other people would think.

That's a good example, because it's not completely fear - they may feel some immediate fear of loss or loneliness, but for the most part I believe it's anxiety about themselves and their ability to maintain their identity if she were to go. It is the threat of absolute confusion about oneself if what was propping up their identity were to disappear.

I have been researching fear since I was young. I always feel fascinated by it. Why do I feel afraid?
That's why my bias towards including it in this thread.

Same for me, I had some pretty intense anxiety as a teen and I've spent a huge amount of time reflecting and working on it. These days, my relationship with anxiety is one of complete opposition - I don't want any part of it - but I can enjoy fear as long as my identity is clear. That's why I always try to resolve anxiety into fear - by approaching and confronting it - thus solidifying my identity.

 

[Freakester]

Interesting. I would say he can definitely feel fear, but he feels little to no anxiety. Fear can be focused and used effectively, but anxiety is borne from confusion or the distant possibility of something fearful happening.

When you're in a fight for example, and your adrenaline is pumping and you're trying to land punches, you can feel intense fear and still be more effective than ever. But if you are confused and anxious, it merely saps your energy, makes it difficult to make decisions, and drives you toward rewards that are not necessarily good for you in the long run.



Yes that's true, I added for clarity that while confusion is the main tactic, there is always a background of fear.

The thing is that fear is very volatile, it can throw someone in either direction - submission or opposition - just as easily. That's why the two most effective sources of fear these days - mobbing/cancellation and court cases - are very indistinct and difficult to aim back at, despite being very powerful. So when people are confronted with these threats, they are simply at a loss for any kind of strategy or plan, and feel overwhelmed and helpless.



That's a good example, because it's not completely fear - they may feel some immediate fear of loss or loneliness, but for the most part I believe it's anxiety about themselves and their ability to maintain their identity if she were to go. It is the threat of absolute confusion about oneself if what was propping up their identity were to disappear.



Same for me, I had some pretty intense anxiety as a teen and I've spent a huge amount of time reflecting and working on it. These days, my relationship with anxiety is one of complete opposition - I don't want any part of it - but I can enjoy fear as long as my identity is clear. That's why I always try to resolve anxiety into fear - by approaching and confronting it - thus solidifying my identity.

Ah, I get it now. You make an apt distinction between fear and anxiety.

Anxiety and fear. These two things sum it up.

I also think both are sister emotions. Fear leads to anxiety and anxiety leads to fear.

I always wonder if there is any way to get rid of it completely. I usually don't feel them, but when I do, it makes me feel weird. Like I am not being the confident guy I usually am.

In my self image, I project myself as fearless. That helped a lot with my anxiety and fear.
But I can't get rid of it completely. Which leads to an identity crisis.

I think we derailed this thread but lol this was an insightful discussion.

Thanks a lot Will.

 

[Will_V]

In my self image, I project myself as fearless. That helped a lot with my anxiety and fear.
But I can't get rid of it completely. Which leads to an identity crisis.

Competence overcomes fear to some extent. But I never try to be fearless, to me lack of fear is in some way a loss of consciousness. I try to simply use it to my advantage.

There was a scientific american article I used to have (I really need to find it again) which covered research on fear vs. determination which had found that determination is not lack of fear but 'repurposed' fear - according to the article the researchers found that the initial stages (in brain scans) of the feeling of determination were the same as the feeling of fear, but that somehow along the way toward the conscious awareness, it was transformed into a sense of determination.

There are primitive drives in men that we try to avoid or shut down because of discomfort, that if only we learned to use, would provide enough fuel to accomplish anything.

I think we derailed this thread but lol this was an insightful discussion.

Thanks a lot Will.

Haha we probably did, hopefully the OP will forgive us!

 

[Red]

I am serious. Why most men are pussies?!
They never stand up for themselves.
They restore to a passive-aggressive attitude.
They never confront
They can't decide.
They let their wives kick their asses
and the list goes on.

And it is prevalent in Western culture. One explanation Chase pointed out is that men grow up in Western societies, believing that the system will protect them. Therefore, they always follow the process while in other cultures they know the system is corrupt so they have to take matters into their own hands.

I am really interested to hear your thoughts, folks.

Simple. Many of us are raised in single parent homes. We are taught how to behave by our mom's and female teachers. Aggression is disagreeable and we get female approval by following their rules. Women can't make men and our fathers didn't know how to be men in the first place.

When men break outside of this, they still get it wrong because they resort to being a tough guy, drinking, drugs, or thinking getting laid a lot makes them men. We all know a tough guy that gets reduced to a little boy by his manipulative woman.

Real masculinity is freakin' hard. It's always been hard. To have self-control, integrity, honesty, measured aggressiveness, to know the right time to follow the rules and went to smash them to pieces with utter disregard. Yeah. Real men have always been few and far between. That's why everyone wants them.