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Woman is being beaten up/harassed/robbed - should you really get involved?

Ryan

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Especially if you're just a foreigner in another country/city?

I'm sure there's a lot of people who think they can be a hero, and rescue a woman from an abusive husband/boyfriend. But if that means putting your life or finances in danger, to meddle in other people's matters, would you do it?

After all, there are police officers and medical staff who are usually nearby, available to do their job. Why should you do it for them? Just call them over and let them handle it.



For example, being a 'gentleman' in the beautiful country of China can get you in all sorts of trouble. 'Other people's matters are not your matters, so it is improper to intervene', seems to be the Chinese point of view on this:

http://www.chinasmack.com/2013/pictures ... nd-by.html

Chinese Woman Viciously Beaten While Onlookers Stand By

Onlooking city residents speculate that the man in black and the woman in white might be a couple. City resident Mr. Zhao said: ”It’s probably a couple having a fight, something difficult for outsiders to get involved in!” Mr. Song was extremely angry: “What if they weren’t a couple? So many people here, yet all all they could do is look on?

woman-viciously-beaten-by-man-while-onlookers-stand-by-06.jpg


http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/ ... nd-by.html

Brazilian Beaten Up For Stopping Thieves As Chinese Stand By

“Only when everyone helps each other will thieves know that they must pay a price to commit a crime here, but the current situation is completely the opposite. With this experience, if I were to run into a similar situation next time, I won’t nor dare to help.”

—-Brazilian Mozen

“These thieves all carry knives on them, and what more there were around 10 people in the entire gang. Yesterday allowing a laowai to face these thieves alone is indeed quite embarrassing for Chinese people. If there is a similar situation next time, I will definitely call my coworkers and together act to stop it.”

—-Neighbor Li Liang

An incident where our countrymen have stood by watching while a laowai rendered aid has once again happened in China, this time in Dongguan.

Two evenings ago, on the crosswalk in front of the Dongcheng Haiya department store entrance in Dongguang, a woman had her bag thieved. A Brazilian man acted to stop it, unexpectedly being beaten up by the thief’s gang in revenge. During that time, dozens of passersby were on the scene but no one attempted to help. Witnesses say that less than 30 meters away were two on-duty public security personnel, the two of them refusing to intervene because the incident was outside of their jurisdiction.

This kind of experience has left the Brazilian man rendered assistance disillusioned and while receiving medical attention afterward said he would not help nor dare to help the next time he encounters a similar situation.

Violently beaten for stopping pickpocketing

The area near Dongcheng Haiya Department Store is known as Dongguan’s “golden shopping corridor”, with lots of foot traffic and bustling with activity.

Two evenings ago at around 7:30pm, Miss Zhu who lived behind the Haiya Department Store put on her gym clothes planning to go to the Heping Gym across the street to exercise. As she reached the middle of the crosswalk, the light turned red, so she stopped [at the center island of the road]. Suddenly, Miss Zhu heard a disturbance behind her, and when she turned around to look, three men had already come to blows behind her, with one of them being a slightly plump foreigner with slightly curly hair also wearing gym clothes.

Miss Zhu says her first reaction at the time was that this laowai is really something, even daring to come to China and pick a fight with Chinese people. However, just as she was still thinking of watching the fuss, several of the people beside her told her, “that laowai is being beaten because of you.” These pedestrians said a thief had pulled open the gym bag Miss Zhu was carrying to steal something, that a lot of people had seen but didn’t dare make a sound, and only this laowai acted to stop it, only to be attacked.

Very quickly, the outnumbered laowai being beaten ran to the first floor lobby of the Junhao Center opposite the Haiya Department Store. Heping Gym membership department employee Li Liang (pseudonym) who was at the time in front of the lobby doors marketing membership cards saw that as the laowai rushed into the lobby, three thieves chased him down, with one of the thieves carrying a stick/rod, raising it and whacking the laowai on the head, while another thief pulled off his leather belt and whipped the laowai on his back and both arms with the metal belt buckle. Yet another thief had randomly picked up a broom and pointed the head of the broom at onlooking passersby ordering the onlooking passersby to all “get lost.”

Li Liang says the entire beating probably lasted 2-3 minutes, the laowai unable to fight back at all, only able to stand there and take the blows, and after only 3-5 blows his head started bleeding, covering his eyes, with blood on his clothes and shoes. Li Liang also says there were at least over 30 people on the scene, no one daring to act to help, and only when those thieves had left did people go forward to ask if [the foreigner] needed help.

Onlookers have made the laowai disillusioned

The first person to go forward to ask if the laowai if he needed help was Xiao Tang (pseudonym), a teacher from Dongguan Songshanhu Middle School. He at the time was on his way to go eat at a nearby KFC, and just happened to run into this beating. Teacher Tang had has been robbed before, so he particularly hates thieves, wanted to go forward and help, but at this moment, he saw that no more than 30 meters in front of them happened to be two on-duty public security personnel. Teacher Tang rushed over to ask them to help, but unexpectedly the public security personnel said: “That isn’t our jurisdiction, we can’t do anything about it.” Failing to persuade them, Teacher Tang could only helplessly go back.

Teacher Tang said, “I really regret stopping to get the public security personnel rather than rushing forward immediately to help.” Afterward, Teacher Tang and Miss Zhu took the laowai whose faced was covered with blood to the nearby Donghua Hospital for medical attention.

Yesterday morning, after getting over 10 stitches on his head, this laowai who had been beaten expressed to this reporter his disappointment. He calls himself Mozen, is 27 years old this year, is from Brazil, and has been in Dongguang engaged in the shoe trade for 3 years now. Mozen says he was preparing to go work out at the time, and as he reached the crosswalk, he noticed someone beside him pointing from which he saw in front of him a thief in the act of thieving from a bag and instinctively went forward to stop this behavior.

Mozen at the time was carrying an umbrella in one hand and some assorted items in the other hand, so he used his umbrella and tapped the thief’s arm. After tapping twice, the thief finally stopped his thieving, turned around and began chasing and attacking Mozen. Mozen says he thinks the thief attacking him is very normal, but he thinks no one helping him is very abnormal. “Because this society needs people mutually helping each other. I’m always around Junhao Business Center, so essentially most people at the center all know me, yet not a single person helped me, so this makes me feel very disappointed, very disillusioned.” Mozen believes that only when everyone helps each other will thieves know that they must pay a price to commit a crime here, but the current situation is completely the opposite.

Spring Festival he had tackled a thief before, but with this experience, if he were to encounter a similar situation next time, he won’t help nor dare to help again.

"This young Brazilian guy doesn’t understand the circumstances/conditions of China!"

"Resolutely oppose meddling in internal affairs!"

"When you guys [foreigners] come here, did your relevant government departments not remind you guys to take note of the different circumstances of different countries? We all get prompt reminders, your relevant departments are irresponsible."

http://www.chinasmack.com/2013/stories/ ... woman.html

Foreign Young Man Who Helped Up Fallen Middle-Aged Woman in Beijing is Extorted For 1800 Yuan

2013 December 2 morning around 10:30am, at the intersection of Xiangheyuan Road and Zuojiazhuang East Street in Beijing’s Chaoyang district, a woman with a Northeastern accent suddenly fell while passing by a laowai riding a motorscooter, collapsing to the ground and refusing to get up. The young foreign man quickly got off his scooter to help up the woman only to be grabbed by the woman claiming that she was hit by the laowai, that her leg was injured and was unable to walk, demanding that the laowai take responsibility. The foreign young man turned pale with shock, yet was tightly clung to by the woman. During the dispute, the middle-aged woman walked about normally and unaffected, and obstinately seized and clung to the foreign young man, ripping his clothes.

Afterward, this woman obstinately clung to the man’s scooter refusing to let go. The accident caused a traffic jam at the scene for over an hour, with the woman limping and twitching multiple times, insisting that she was knocked over by the foreign young man and that he should be held responsible, forcing the foreign young man into tears.

Not long after the incident occurred, the police arrived on the scene and both parties proceeded to Meitan General Hospital. After being examined by doctors and X-rayed, it was diagnosed that the woman was not injured at all. The woman then once again collapsed to the ground screaming that she was in pain/discomfort. Finally, after negotiations between the two, the foreign young man had no choice but to compensate 1800 yuan in “medical expenses” before the woman would drop the matter and leave.

A British foreigner in Beijing had to compensate a middle-aged Chinese woman 1800 RMB after running into her with his motorcycle.

These photos and the narrative of the foreigner being falsely accused and extorted were published across China’s major web portals early this morning with titles such as: Male Foreign National Has Traffic Accident Dispute with Woman, Pays 1800 Yuan in Compensation . Most were taken down later in the day (read on for why).

Fuck, the laowai being so wild, not even paying attention to where he is.

(Chase's or other expats' opinion on this would be helpful).


So you're walking somewhere in a place that isn't local to you, and you see a woman being disgracefully treated - it's no business of yours, right? What would you do?
 

Richard

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Okay,

In psychology, a couple things are at work here:
-The Bystander Effect
-Diffusion of Responsibility

I'm a fucking 3rd degree black belt in Karate, and two things I hate in this world:
-Men who hit women
-Men who hit children

If a woman/child is getting beaten and I see it, that motherfucker is going to stop. Plain and simple.

Even if it's a couple having a fight, I'm stopping that bitch from hitting a woman, and probably vicariously breaking a bone or two.
 

Ryan

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Z Vaunswa said:
Okay,

In psychology, a couple things are at work here:
-The Bystander Effect
-Diffusion of Responsibility

I'm a fucking 3rd degree black belt in Karate, and two things I hate in this world:
-Men who hit women
-Men who hit children

If a woman/child is getting beaten and I see it, that motherfucker is going to stop. Plain and simple.

Even if it's a couple having a fight, I'm stopping that bitch from hitting a woman, and probably vicariously breaking a bone or two.

I'm aware of the bystander effect, but this is beyond that.

Have a look at the second article. This guy was Brazilian. He's bound to have seen far worse in the favelas of Brazil, with all their drugs, crime and corruption. He thought just like you. He saw a poor lady getting pick-pocketed, thought he could be a hero and got nearly killed for it.

I've been doing martial arts since a young age (quit a while ago though), but someone who's trained in this area has to know their limits- when to fight and when to walk away. As my teacher said, if the guy has a gun or a knife, just walk away if possible. It just isn't worth it.

I recommend you look at Chase's article about fighting. If your or your loved one's life isn't in immediate and grave danger, just walk away.
 

Richard

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Fuck that....

My personal morals won't let me walk away from shit like that. I'm properly trained and I know when to walk away, but I've also been taught beyond that. Handling guns, knives, weapons, I do it all. I'm a fully loaded fighter, and I can handle almost anything.

If a guy is pussy enough to beat a woman than he's not man enough to be able to fight me, if he has buddies, they won't be able to fight me either.

I've been jumped by multiple people, been attacked with multiple weapons, and look at the dynamics of the situation, which is what I said above:

A man who is pussy enough to hit a woman isn't man enough or skilled enough to fight me; with or without help. End of story.

How would you feel if a woman dies because a man beat in her public and you saw it knowing you could've done something to help that person?

Then, about the crime/gang/drugs... That's what I live around, it's what I was raised around, it's my environment... It's a pussy excuse to not do something...
 

Ryan

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Z Vaunswa said:
Fuck that....

My personal morals won't let me walk away from shit like that. I'm properly trained and I know when to walk away, but I've also been taught beyond that. Handling guns, knives, weapons, I do it all. I'm a fully loaded fighter, and I can handle almost anything.

If a guy is pussy enough to beat a woman than he's not man enough to be able to fight me, if he has buddies, they won't be able to fight me either.

I've been jumped by multiple people, been attacked with multiple weapons, and look at the dynamics of the situation, which is what I said above:

A man who is pussy enough to hit a woman isn't man enough or skilled enough to fight me; with or without help. End of story.

How would you feel if a woman dies because a man beat in her public and you saw it knowing you could've done something to help that person?

Then, about the crime/gang/drugs... That's what I live around, it's what I was raised around, it's my environment... It's a pussy excuse to not do something...

You speak like you've never been in a real fight in your life. It's not like WWE.
I've had stitches on my face and fractured bones just by being in fist fights - you are going to be hurt in any fight, no matter who wins. It's just a certainty.
And if the other guy has a knife/gun, then you're simply gambling with your life. (And if he has a knife/gun, chances are he's not alone.) Leave it to the police. I prefer life.

It's not about how experienced you are. A lucky swing at your chin or the removal of a knife hidden in his pocket while up close could leave you with serious injuries. My teacher always said that the white belts were always the most dangerous within the confines of the class, as they were the ones with uncontrolled and unpredictable movements.
 

Richard

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You speak like you've never been in a real fight in your life. It's not like WWE.

...... As a young white kid growing up in a ghetto area where every day was filled with some type of violence, I'm quite sure I've never been in a fight...

As a 3rd degree black belt in Karate, a practitioner of 6 different weapons, as well as Judo, Kali, Jiu Jitsu, and a little Hapkido I'm not someone who's easy to fight... I don't really get hurt in fights because I don't give people an opportunity to hit me, or I deflect --> to joint lock --> to take down/ knockout.

My entire martial arts experience has been about learning to fight efficiently, not for tournaments but for street fighting and self-defense fighting...

I've had stitches on my face and fractured bones just by being in fist fights - you are going to be hurt in any fight, no matter who wins. It's just a certainty.

^^^ Now this sounds like someone who hasn't been in a real fight in your life.

After practicing, after full-contact no pads sparring, after numerous street fights on the premise of being white in a black neighborhood, I can tell you the worst I've gotten is black eyes, and bloody nose.

Guns or not, knives or not, I personally do not care. Simple as that.
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

Ryan

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Z Vaunswa said:
You speak like you've never been in a real fight in your life. It's not like WWE.

...... As a young white kid growing up in a ghetto area where every day was filled with some type of violence, I'm quite sure I've never been in a fight...

As a 3rd degree black belt in Karate, a practitioner of 6 different weapons, as well as Judo, Kali, Jiu Jitsu, and a little Hapkido I'm not someone who's easy to fight... I don't really get hurt in fights because I don't give people an opportunity to hit me, or I deflect --> to joint lock --> to take down/ knockout.

My entire martial arts experience has been about learning to fight efficiently, not for tournaments but for street fighting and self-defense fighting...

I've had stitches on my face and fractured bones just by being in fist fights - you are going to be hurt in any fight, no matter who wins. It's just a certainty.

^^^ Now this sounds like someone who hasn't been in a real fight in your life.

After practicing, after full-contact no pads sparring, after numerous street fights on the premise of being white in a black neighborhood, I can tell you the worst I've gotten is black eyes, and bloody nose.

Guns or not, knives or not, I personally do not care. Simple as that.

Okay, whatever. Let's keep on topic. I'm more of a lover than a fighter anyway.
 

Richard

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I apologize for my anger bro, I don't mean to displace my feelings about the matter onto you.

Shit like this really pisses me off, and it's one of the few things that destroys my otherwise calm composure ;)

I've seen my aunt get beat by a boyfriend when I was too young to be able to do anything about it, and she was hospitalized and nearly died. I've seen a woman get 3 of her ribs broken by an angry boyfriend at the laundromat.

Acting like nothing is happening is every bit as bad as committing the act yourself.
 

Ryan

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It's good that your passionate, don't worry about it. Shows you care about women.

Of course i agree with you if i was in my own hometown. I would totally fuck that guy up.
But my point is, when you're johnny foreigner and you're not accustomed to the culture and laws of the land, i think one should just leave it. If a Brazilian guy couldn't handle himself in front of a few triads, i sure as hell ain't getting involved. These people have nothing to lose, whereas you, I and most other educated and attractive men have got plenty to lose (see Chase's stand-off against a mongolian. To be fair to Chase, you'll have to be crazy to fight a mongol. Those guys will kill for fun given the opportunity).
 

Thedoctor

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Ryan,

I've gotten involved in a few "situations" in my past. There's a few cases where I'd still get involved but I'm a little more selective these days. I'd assess the situation first to properly ascertain what's going on. Especially if it's a case of domestic violence, those can get really ugly. You can start defending her from her abusive boyfriend, then all of a sudden she turns on you with a weapon cause you're hurting the person she loves. This exact thing happens all the time. Police are most cautious in responding to cases of domestic violence because of how quickly the situation can get extremely dangerous.

I have a friend who works in security and he once witnessed a girl bite another person's ear off. I've watched a friend of mine (who is one tough bastard) get bear-maced. He isn't really useful to anyone when he's unable to see. This is just a couple examples of how bad a fight can get very quickly.

Just things to keep in mind before you decide to go play hero.

-Doc
 

Richard

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With regards to the question to the guys on the site,

I'm sure most guys wouldn't visit foreign countries to visit areas that are full of crime/harassment.

But speaking objectively, if an untrained guy witnesses a situation like the ones you listed, then they should let it be. But given my life background, it'd be damnnn hard for me to walk away from something like that.

But yes, being held up at gunpoint, and having to disarm knives is not fun, and in my opinion, violence and fighting is pointless, I've learned it just so I could use it in situations like that though.

In regards to what Doc said, because he posted as I was finishing this haha.

It's true that you need to assess the situation and act rationally because I've had a few things happen where things get hairy fast and I had to remain composed and act rationally. I've learned most of what I know from a 27 year police chief, and my fighting mentalities come from things I've picked up from him.
 

Leopold

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Ryan said:
(see Chase's stand-off against a mongolian. To be fair to Chase, you'll have to be crazy to fight a mongol. Those guys will kill for fun given the opportunity).

Hmm, curious to read this. Where'd you see this?

-Leo
 

Desert Eagle

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Depends on who's perspective to you take. Either could be labeled as the hero or villain, because you have no idea what is happening, you're basing everything off a simple few seconds of observance. This is exactly why I don't get involved in these sort of affairs unless it becomes my problem. I'd advise you to do the same.
 

TheWiseFool

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Ryan,

There are more people in the world whose drive for self-preservation is usually greater than their need to act on moral standards. It is a sad thing, but it occurs everywhere in the world. For guys like us, men who ask these questions... we can only act in the moment and be that guy who gets beat up because we believe in something greater than ourselves and are making a statement to those who idly stand and watch. That's the mark of a true hero. Someone who is willing to risk their life for that of another human being.
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command." John 15:13-14
So to, we should consider stranger or familiar as friend. Like I said though, no one really knows what they'd do until the moment arises. Either biological drives win over moral strength or vice versa. I hope we choose glory over life every time, regardless of how foolish we look to politicians, rich men, wise men, evil men, those who laugh and mock us. They do not understand our cause of action, but that doesn't matter. All that matters is if our actions matter to us. - The Wise Fool
Before the battle of Troy, Achilles’ mother (a goddess) asked if he wanted to have a beautiful wife and create a lineage of children for generations who would love him, but… eventually his name would fade to the sands of time; Or if he wanted to die in the battle of Troy and have his name live forever. Which did he choose? Just stretch out your Achilles tendon and let my point soak in.
 

Desert Eagle

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TheWiseFool, take into consideration that there are two sides to a fight. Women aren't helpless beings. Two human beings fight, and you feel comfortable in making the call that you should aid strangers as if you were their friend - except you have two friends in a fight. Both are humans. One may need money to survive, as businessmen such as the woman have taken away his ability to get food from selfish business methods.

Now, I'm sure you're going to try and paint the situation up in a way where you would only intervene when you knew the specifics of the situation - where the woman was obviously a whole-hearted, kind person and the thief was a low-life scum. You absolutely cannot logically determine which party is at fault from a simple observation, or even an in-depth investigation. Each has their own agenda. This is a popular lesson that should have been learned from reading a book such as The Iliad (which, ironically, you decided to quote). There are two sides to everything, leaving no 'moral' choice, especially in a book about a war over a man who was able to woo away another man's wife.
 

Ryan

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Richard

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TheWiseFool, take into consideration that there are two sides to a fight.

I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone said, my point was already made.

But I'd like to point something out, a fight is when two people are aware that they're both going to attack one another. Situations like these aren't fights, they are beatings/harrasment cases/ robbery cases.

If two people want to fight and I see it, let them fight. If one person is being abused/harassed/robbed, I'll step in.
 

Just_Dave

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Z Vaunswa said:
Okay,

In psychology, a couple things are at work here:
-The Bystander Effect
-Diffusion of Responsibility

I'm a fucking 3rd degree black belt in Karate, and two things I hate in this world:
-Men who hit women
-Men who hit children

If a woman/child is getting beaten and I see it, that motherfucker is going to stop. Plain and simple.

Even if it's a couple having a fight, I'm stopping that bitch from hitting a woman, and probably vicariously breaking a bone or two.

11739-ssj2_gohan.jpg
 

TheWiseFool

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Desert Eagle,

I understand your perspective because you are looking at things from both sides of the coin at multiple angles. I understand that, but I can't live life knowing I could have done something to help someone and end up hearing they died because of some tragic reason I "didn't want to get involved in". Thinking about the Good Samaritan. I don't know you, but I got you and everything is going to be alright. That's how I live my life.

As I said before,
There are more people in the world whose drive for self-preservation is usually greater than their need to act on moral standards.
... and I have parents who grew up in areas like this. They tell me all the time to not talk to strangers, or go to this heavily crime populated area or to not go to Africa to help people, but what do I do? I do the complete opposite. Why? Because I don't care if I die. If I die cos someone robs me, so be it. They are fed for a day, get a new jacket, pants, shirt, boots, a picture of my beautiful face if they search my wallet, which they'll probably throw away after they take my money
For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.
Genesis 3:19
We're nothing man. Nothing. We're nothing in the grand scheme of space, time, matter. We are nothing but self-replicating machinery.

As my name states, I am the wise fool. Some would say it's wiser to do nothing because you don't know it all. But I think it's wiser to be the fool and act because the fool learns until he becomes the wise man. I jump in and get the guy to step back, then I say, "Hey man, what's wrong here? How can I help? Is it money you want? I don't got much, but this is what I got. Just leave this woman alone." Sure, I could end up dead, shot up on the block, stabbed, beaten, then so be it. If the woman is smart, she probably ran away while they were distracted. I have almost died twice already, coming to peace with death taking me... But here I am now, alive and much wiser than a majority of my peers because of such things. It all depends. You do you and I will do me. I am who I am.

And who I am knows that talking always works. There's this African tribe that settles problems this way. Someone hides the weapons somewhere out in the savanna and all the men gather around a firepit and talk it out, for however long it takes. Before knowing this story I did something similar with two of my fraternity brothers who were about to fight each other when they were drunk. You can always do something, and in my opinion, something is always better than nothing. Just like it is in pickup.
- The Wise Fool
 

Ryan

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TheWiseFool said:
Desert Eagle,

I understand your perspective because you are looking at things from both sides of the coin at multiple angles. I understand that, but I can't live life knowing I could have done something to help someone and end up hearing they died because of some tragic reason.

As I said before,
There are more people in the world whose drive for self-preservation is usually greater than their need to act on moral standards.
... and I have parents who grew up in areas like this and who tell me to not talk to strangers or not go to Africa to help people, but what do I do? I do the complete opposite. Why? Because I don't care if I die. If I die cos someone robs me, so be it. He is fed for a day, gets a new jacket, pants, shirt, a picture of my beautiful face, which he'll probably throw away.
For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.
Genesis 3:19
We're nothing man. Nothing. We're nothing in the grand scheme of space, time, matter. We are nothing. As my name states, I am the wise fool. Some would say it's wiser to do nothing because you don't know it all. But I think it's wiser to be the fool and act because the fool learns until he becomes the wise man. I jump in and get the guy to step back, then I say, "Hey man, what's wrong here? How can I help? Is it money you want? I don't got much, but this is what I got. Just leave this woman alone." Sure, I could end up dead, then so be it. I have almost died twice already, coming to peace with death taking me... But here I am now, much wiser than a majority of my peers. It all depends. You do you and I will do me. I am who I am.
- The Wise Fool

Personally, i prefer the Norse phrase: 'A corpse is no good to anyone'

Or to quote a general of the Mongol Empire: Honour is nothing without victory (What use has honour if you're going to die/lose the fight? Better to be a dishonourable coward and win the war. That was in response to the Japanese samurai's disdain of their 'hit and run' tactics. But the mongols conquered the largest land empire in history following that belief - from Germany to South Korea).

I think i might be getting a bit too deep here!
 
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