Work girl throwing IOIs but confusing and now eyeing other guys

[Aviator]

We have an intern who was for a while holding her gaze to the point of staring whenever I would look at her - when others didn't have the angle to see us looking at each other (girls are good at doing these things when no one else can see). Because of the work environment I have been a bit hesitant to really move things forward or to sustain eye contact or insinuate anything as a result of those stares. She always wears these tight jeans and is always pulling them up infront of me to the point of near camel toe, or as wedgie, sticking her chest out, and when no one was around dropping stuff to bend over directly infront of me (this happened enough that it was not accidental). Had her leopard print thong sticking out of the back of her pants so I could see and knew they were like that because she covered them up when I said "there is our supervisor". Wore a white G-string to work and as soon as I came in she walked infront of me and dropped something and bent over to reveal her strings. She would always laugh and smile when we talked and hold eye contact a good bit, and we have had some fun flirty conversations. However, she never initiates conversation or tries to maintain conversation if we are alone, she rarely asks anything about me. I have to work to keep anything going, but don't have any way to escalate anything because of the limits on the work situation, although we have had some flirty and connecting short conversations - they just have to happen when her intern guy friend is there with us. She is comfortable staying and talking to me when he is around. Strange.

The only thing she has done to even provide any indication she wanted me to meet up outside work was:

• An almost inaudible "I want to go camping" when someone else brought up a story about me camping. However, I barely heard it and had no way to know it was directed at me - could have been something she said to her college guy intern friend.

• Another sort-of maybe indication was when talking about plans for the 4th... I asked the interns what they were doing and then she asked me what I was doing. I said, "I am going to DC with my family (there were visiting)." She said, "I haven't been there for the 4th." (This maybe wasn't a fishing attempt, but mentioned it anyway).

• The more obvious one was when she, the guy intern, and me were talking alone (they are friends and is comfortable around him). At some point in the convo I handed her a tool to help her work on something and she made the comment "This will really get my hole going." Then a bit after that she asked the two of us if we had any wild plans that night. I said no because I had stuff to do to prepare for my family coming in.

OK, so that was maybe a missed opportunity and up until now I may have missed an escalation window, but not really sure things have ever been escalated to that point. So, within the past week or so, I have noticed she stopped doing much attention getting from me. Instead, whenever some other guy comes to our area, I look over and she is staring at them like she used to do to me. With this other guy, she turned here entire body toward him (away from me and everyone else) with her head down resting on her hand and neck revealed (supposed to be a way women look to suggest they are interested) so that only he (who was talking to someone with their backed turned to her) could make eye contact with her (remember, I mentioned that above... how women make sure no one else can see when she is throwing signals at some guy). Now, I never saw her making eye contact with him (I couldn't), but he is married and I noticed it seemed like they were making eye contact intermittently - he looked away quickly either due to her staring him down or because he saw me notice it. A similar thing happened the other day, where I walked into a room and he was positioned only to make eye contact with her and she was turned toward him even though she was working at a computer with the other intern. As soon as he saw I was coming, he left, and I saw her turn away.

So, I figured she either gave up on me and started eyeing-up other guys at the office, trying to tell me she isn't interested in me, trying to make me jealous in an attempt to draw other guys in, or boost her confidence by reassuring herself that other guys are interested in her if I am not. After considering that she never initiates conversation and after the time she turned herself from me to hide her face and eye-up the married dude, I basically went cold on her. Then she did the same. We would pass by each other and she would look at the ground and not make eye contact or say anything (just simple polite talk "excuse me" "sorry" as she went by) - I just walk by her focused on what I am doing. When I would pass her in the hall she would seem kinda down and say hi but with a disappointed half-smile. Then she came into where I was working and started walking in circles around the table I was working at. She was acting like a little girl shuffling her feet across the floor as she went round and round the table, and for the first time she initiated converstion, but in a tone like a young girl (not baby-like but different than I have ever heard from her) and a bit unsure. She said, "So....... Hows it going......., guys?". The guy intern and I were in the room, but she directed the question at me to which I didn't respond immediately. He didn't respond at all cause he knew she was talking to me. She threw in the "guys" to imply that it wasn't directed at me when she realized I didn't immediately respond. I then responded but nothing special as I am focused on a project that is tedious and has to get done. I basically said, "Things are going great", jokingly said "What are you doing walking around the desk, trying to be annoying?" Maybe a tad too harsh though - that is one of my problems.

Anyway, just to be to the point... lots of girls make their interest known to me wherever I go. I know I can get just about any girl I want and do, and I have no doubt that this girl at least thinks I am physically attractive. I am also older than her by 15 years. I guess my issue here is that I am not used to this kind of situation both in regards to work environment and a girl who has done things to get my interest but not really to the point of creating a "safe" situation for me to make something happen. I don't understand if she is just unsure of my interest in her and is trying to protect herself from shame or what. Or perhaps I just didn't move things along fast enough and seize the opportunity that I had. I've read the articles on flirting at work but its difficult when the other person is flirting but just evasive enough to not allow for a situation to make something happen (though I guess that is my fault as a guy). Would the same girl who isn't bold enough to interact with me verbally or suggest interest in meeting up ("Hey I would love to do that"), be bold enough to secretly arrange some hook-up with a married dude? Also, should I have gone cold and how long do I maintain it? Just a bit confused in this situation.

Input would be appreciated. thanks.

P.S. There is nothing like that feeling of seeing some girl you have may some interest in eyeing-up some dude when they think no one can see them. Its then when you start to see them as some girl craving dick rather than a a girl you want a relationship with (not that I wanted a relationship with this girl, just maybe wanted to bang). Everything changes then.

 

[lao che]

lots of girls make their interest known to me wherever I go. I know I can get just about any girl I want and do

this is not a post written by a guy who gets any girl he wants to.

a girl who has done things to get my interest but not really to the point of creating a "safe" situation for me to make something happen.

that's your job, not hers.

I don't understand if she is just unsure of my interest in her (1) and is trying to protect herself from shame or what (2). Or perhaps I just didn't move things along fast enough and seize the opportunity that I had (3).

1) you don't seem to have shown any interest at all.
2) yes, reputation management is very important in the workplace.
3) didn't move fast enough.

Would the same girl who isn't bold enough to interact with me verbally or suggest interest in meeting up ("Hey I would love to do that"), be bold enough to secretly arrange some hook-up with a married dude? Also, should I have gone cold and how long do I maintain it?

yes, if the married dude had his shit together, was sexy, took command of the situation and was discreet.
although there could be more to this than meets the eye. maybe she was fucking him before and he tried to back off so she "flirted" with you to make him jealous. point is, who knows.

no you should not have gone cold. don't act like a little bitch because a girl you're not fucking is making eyes at someone else.


i've been quite successful at work-place game. at one point i had three different colleagues as fuckbuddies, all of them working in the same place, none of them knowing about the others.
discretion is key. as is expectation management. you gotta find the right secretive moment, get her details, and take it from there. never flirt or mention it in the workplace at all.

 

[Aviator]

that's your job, not hers.

What I meant was that it is also dangerous for me to make a move and get rejected in the workplace. So, I need a bit more than some eye contact and her bending-over in front of me. She could just be a tease trying to get the attention of all the guys in the office to have a better chance of being asked back. Without her taking a couple more steps how can I know the difference and not risk being rejected and have that spread around.

1) you don't seem to have shown any interest at all.

Maybe I didn't but that is due to the previous, but I attempted to get some banter going many times which seemed to get a decent response from her. Not sure how much more I can push it.

yes, if the married dude had his shit together, was sexy, took command of the situation and was discreet.
although there could be more to this than meets the eye. maybe she was fucking him before and he tried to back off so she "flirted" with you to make him jealous. point is, who knows.

Don't think she did because she always did it when no one else could notice. He only comes over occasionally. He just started coming over more often when he realized she was over there - now checking-in 2-3 times per day. I think he comes over to catch a glimpse of her - my opinion.

no you should not have gone cold. don't act like a little bitch because a girl you're not fucking is making eyes at someone else.

That isn't why I did it and I really just appeared more occupied, not cold really. Its not like she ever initiated conversation, she would only make eye contact. The reason I did it was to see if I could get her to initiate - she did. She came walking by my desk which she never does for no apparent reason and the whole thing when she was walking circles around me.

discretion is key. as is expectation management. you gotta find the right secretive moment, get her details, and take it from there. never flirt or mention it in the workplace at all.

Yes, I think I can be more discrete. We work close together so it is difficult not to at least joke around a bit and talk to her without someone else present.

Thanks for input

 

[lao che]

What I meant was that it is also dangerous for me to make a move and get rejected in the workplace. So, I need a bit more than some eye contact and her bending-over in front of me. She could just be a tease trying to get the attention of all the guys in the office to have a better chance of being asked back. Without her taking a couple more steps how can I know the difference and not risk being rejected and have that spread around.

what exactly do you expect her to do first, before you "make a move" safely? rub her breasts and suggestively lick her lips while gazing longingly at you? drop her phone number into your pocket when nobody's looking? take your phone out of your hand and say "you have what'sapp? let me put my details in for you, so we can chat out of office hours ..."

why is it dangerous for you? because you think if she rejects you then she' ll broadcast it to everyone? "oh that guy, yeah, he asked me out what a creeper! macking on the intern, as if i'd go on a date with him!" things don't really happen like that.

here's how it should go down - you two are talking about any subject, alone or with other colleauges, doesn't matter. and something in the convo prompts you to ask for her details. e.g "i was reading about bla bla bla, give me your details i'll send you the link." or for some reason she takes a group photo of her colleagues - "oh hey, send that to me here's my whatsapp."

absolutely no danger of rejection, everybody's reputation is intact. everything is normal. then take it from there. you should be able to gauge if she's down from her text responses.

 

[Aviator]

What I meant was that it is also dangerous for me to make a move and get rejected in the workplace. So, I need a bit more than some eye contact and her bending-over in front of me. She could just be a tease trying to get the attention of all the guys in the office to have a better chance of being asked back. Without her taking a couple more steps how can I know the difference and not risk being rejected and have that spread around.

what exactly do you expect her to do first, before you "make a move" safely? rub her breasts and suggestively lick her lips while gazing longingly at you? drop her phone number into your pocket when nobody's looking? take your phone out of your hand and say "you have what'sapp? let me put my details in for you, so we can chat out of office hours ..."

why is it dangerous for you? because you think if she rejects you then she' ll broadcast it to everyone? "oh that guy, yeah, he asked me out what a creeper! macking on the intern, as if i'd go on a date with him!" things don't really happen like that.

here's how it should go down - you two are talking about any subject, alone or with other colleauges, doesn't matter. and something in the convo prompts you to ask for her details. e.g "i was reading about bla bla bla, give me your details i'll send you the link." or for some reason she takes a group photo of her colleagues - "oh hey, send that to me here's my whatsapp."

absolutely no danger of rejection, everybody's reputation is intact. everything is normal. then take it from there. you should be able to gauge if she's down from her text responses.

That is a good point... I guess just a "hey, what are you doing this weekend?" or to see that she is actually trying to make conversation without me starting it. Show some interest outside of the IOIs at a distance.

But there is something else that interests me. I noticed that although they make eye contact (this only became apparent to me within the last week or two - I am the only person who has noticed - very discrete the way they do it - almost difficult to "catch" it) and I have noticed her locating herself to where he is at or looking around for him when he walks out of a room he was in, they never have any kind of discussion about anything - they never talk unless it is a work related thing and very brief. She doesn't say "hello, how are you" and neither does he when they see each other, not their names, what they did whenever, etc. I don't know when they would actually ever communicate cause I see her all day long. This is something I would like to see more about... i.e., how people actually work out the logistics. For example, suppose they are fucking... how did they actually arrange it all when I am fairly certain they have never had much time to arrange anything - never have I seen even friendly banter between them. In this case, she is either where I am, or with her intern guy buddy. The only time she isn't is when she walks to the restroom and never for any extended period - there and back. This is what intrigues me the most. You would have to be pretty smooth to arrange a hook-up with someone in only two or three minutes here and there having never had any discussion with them. Or if somehow he did something like you were talking about - i.e., said "if you need to get ahold of me about a question here is my cell because sometimes I am away". He could have indicated interest through playful eye contact and left it to her interest to initiate a contact or something. Don't know... I am actually more interested in this than pursuing her. Of course, maybe they haven't and she is just interested a bit and throwing some IOIs at him and he is just using it as some office flirting and nothing else. Maybe she just wants everyone's attention, because as the only cute girl in our group of 60-100 people, she gets attention. There aren't many women in the field I am in.

 

[lao che]

I guess just a "hey, what are you doing this weekend?" or to see that she is actually trying to make conversation without me starting it. Show some interest outside of the IOIs at a distance.

i refer you to my first point - that's your job.


the rest of this is starting to feel a little bit creepy or obsessionish. but you say you're just fascinated by the dynamics of it, ok.

listen i've been there, wondering which of my colleagues is fucking who, thinking if i hit on this one girl but she's fucking another there's no doubt she'd tell him. they'd probably have a little chuckle about it. "lao che hit on you? no way! cheeky fucker haha!" whatever ..
but here's the thing, you will never know. unless you're pals with him and one night he's drunk and showing you pics on his phone or something like that. you will never know for sure, if he's good, if he's a smooth dude. you will never find out from her. even if you finally bang her she will never tell you. you could never ask anyway but if it had happened she won't tell you. she will deny it, and that's what you should do too. deny everything, baldrick!


here's a brief rundown of one i did -

i see the girl for the first time, notice IOIs. introduce myself when the opportunity arises, then pretty much ignore, or be polite but nothing more, for however long it takes until i could discreetly get her details. she's only here for a week or so, so when her last day comes she's taking pictures of herself with her new friends. i make sure to be around for a photo and then say "let me see ... oh nice! send it to me ..." and that's IT. move to text/IM game and proceed to vaginatown.

edit: i don't talk at all to girls in work i wanna fuck, if i can help it. i'm not trying to make friends with her, there's minimal small talk and certainly no flirting. everything is covert. and everything besides the intial contact exchange takes place off the premises.


from what you've described it sounds like they are fucking. but that might just be confirmation bias.

You would have to be pretty smooth to arrange a hook-up with someone in only two or three minutes here and there having never had any discussion with them.

exactly. this all comes down to being a sexy man. (out of curiosity, is he a sexy man, in your opinion?) if you're fundamentals are tight and you know you're the shit, then you beieve every girl wants you anyway, so you will take anything as an IOI and push forward. sure you might be wrong sometimes but there are no bruised egos or damaged reputations when you're a discreet, sexy guy.

 

[Aviator]

i refer you to my first point - that's your job.

OK

the rest of this is starting to feel a little bit creepy or obsessionish. but you say you're just fascinated by the dynamics of it, ok.

Maybe a little. I become obsessed with breaking shit down and analyzing and to some extent there is obviously some regret for not taking advantage of the situation and not playing it right.

listen i've been there, wondering which of my colleagues is fucking who, thinking if i hit on this one girl but she's fucking another there's no doubt she'd tell him. they'd probably have a little chuckle about it. "lao che hit on you? no way! cheeky fucker haha!" whatever ..
but here's the thing, you will never know. unless you're pals with him and one night he's drunk and showing you pics on his phone or something like that. you will never know for sure, if he's good, if he's a smooth dude. you will never find out from her. even if you finally bang her she will never tell you. you could never ask anyway but if it had happened she won't tell you. she will deny it, and that's what you should do too. deny everything, baldrick!

We are pals to some extent - we work in the same group. He sits close to me, but I have been working in a different section where the interns are. Obviously, I know she nor him would ever admit it, I would never expect that or even think of asking.

edit: i don't talk at all to girls in work i wanna fuck, if i can help it. I'm not trying to make friends with her, there's minimal small talk and certainly no flirting. everything is covert. and everything besides the initial contact exchange takes place off the premises.

Exactly, I agree. It is hard when I was working with her everyday for 8 hours. I tried to avoid small talk but it was pretty much impossible. I should have carried through with this better, but it is difficult in that situation.

from what you've described it sounds like they are fucking. but that might just be confirmation bias.

Its really hard to tell, but very possible. I definitely noticed again today that once he goes back to where we are working and leaves, she comes out a few minutes after - every time to go to the restroom which is infront of our main office where he sits - like she is trying to chase and get a glipse of him or run into him (she saw him and wants more) - its like clockwork. The one time I told you about in the first post that he saw me coming and walked away, she left the room he was in as if she was going to go find him, but realized that he was in the next room talking to me and she turned right around and went back to the room she was in. No reason for her to have left other than to see where he went. She was like "Oh, he hasn't left yet." At the end of the day today he out of nowhere got up from his chair in our main office and went and got water (I could see him from where I was), as soon as he came back to his desk I saw her walking across the hallway, as if it was coordinated. I was like, "did they somehow make contact that I couldn't see". It was uncanny. Could be coincidence but, somewhat too coincidental. They left at about the same time today- him about 10-15 minutes after she walked down the hallway.

If he is, then cool - way to go for him... pretty sure she would've done the same with me. He and I are cool - our relationship is brother-like in a casual sense. I really went into the situation trying to avoid any kind of work relationship as I have always thought it a bad move - so started off with a frame of not even making an attempt. But, she kinda got me having a second thought.

exactly. this all comes down to being a sexy man. (out of curiosity, is he a sexy man, in your opinion?) if you're fundamentals are tight and you know you're the shit, then you believe every girl wants you anyway, so you will take anything as an IOI and push forward. sure you might be wrong sometimes but there are no bruised egos or damaged reputations when you're a discreet, sexy guy.

I think he is. Without me coming off gay, he has sort of a touch of the nonthreatening charm of a gay man - not as in the flaming or pansy ones. When I first met him I thought he was gay. Not sure if that makes sense. IOW, he can definitely make women feel comfortable around him. He has good looks (nothing special, but above avg., body language, voice, respected role in the office, dresses well, etc. There isn't a whole lot working against him, but he isn't everything either. He does some occasional stuff that is low value... for example, out of no where when we were standing next to her he said "shut up, aviator". I just chuckled this off a bit slyly and ignored it - rolling my eyes a bit. Like, why? What purpose or objective did it serve to say that when I was silent as a mouse? We were working on fixing something. In my mind, that is insecurity - like he felt he had to knock me down to look good in front of this girl. What threat am I to him? He usually comes off with more tact than that.

It doesn't really matter she leaves in two weeks and I am currently probably somewhere between friends zone and potential hook-up at this point. I am also too close in proximity to her right now to create any distance. I tried to do that by dropping the banter and play more from a frame like he has with no words with her outside of strict work replies and questions - she became sad and confused from this and you all told me I shouldn't have done this. From now on I am going to be thinking in a much more discrete way. Don't say anything but strict work stuff and strike while the iron is hot. I do this naturally, but at work I am off my guard a bit.

ACtually, what I am going to do is ask him his opinion on hooking up with women you work with and see what his advice is. What he thinks the best way to go about it? see what he says. I may hold off on this.

 

[ray_zorse]

Dude dude you've already received a lot of good advice here, now don't overthink and please, FORGET ABOUT IT / HER / THEM. Situation here is she wanted dick, she isn't super intellectual so she didn't go the conversation / flirting / getting to know you route, just behaved overtly sexual, and hoped you would isolate her and give her the dick. You didn't, for whatever reason (a) her flirting style threw you off, you didn't know what to make of it (b) you were concerned with discretion, but you didn't think of asking for her no. and proceeding discreetly by text (c) you were fearful of rejection, you phrased this like reputation management but I bet your ego was involved too. Now, she sees you as a prude and potential danger to her reputation, since you are not sexually open she now sees herself as a slut in your eyes and she wishes she hadn't thrown herself at you. Missed window, you took a big value hit (no balls to make a move) and attainability hit (didn't like her enough to make a move). She hates you now. Will be polite, but distant, and no more. NEXT and do it right next time. Regarding point c I have asked out at least 7 girls in my workplace, none of them accepted but after the first girl (early in my journey) I learned to do it discreetly, and I'm still friends with all of them, was a little awkward for 6mths with first girl but now has improved.
Ray

 

[Aviator]

Dude dude you've already received a lot of good advice here, now don't overthink and please, FORGET ABOUT IT / HER / THEM. Situation here is she wanted dick, she isn't super intellectual so she didn't go the conversation / flirting / getting to know you route, just behaved overtly sexual, and hoped you would isolate her and give her the dick. You didn't, for whatever reason (a) her flirting style threw you off, you didn't know what to make of it (b) you were concerned with discretion, but you didn't think of asking for her no. and proceeding discreetly by text (c) you were fearful of rejection, you phrased this like reputation management but I bet your ego was involved too. Now, she sees you as a prude and potential danger to her reputation, since you are not sexually open she now sees herself as a slut in your eyes and she wishes she hadn't thrown herself at you. Missed window, you took a big value hit (no balls to make a move) and attainability hit (didn't like her enough to make a move). She hates you now. Will be polite, but distant, and no more. NEXT and do it right next time. Regarding point c I have asked out at least 7 girls in my workplace, none of them accepted but after the first girl (early in my journey) I learned to do it discreetly, and I'm still friends with all of them, was a little awkward for 6mths with first girl but now has improved.
Ray

It was neither a, b, or c. I didn't make a move because I work with her and don't want to create any situation which may hurt my employment. The reputation thing was just another factor - if this girl was just a tease, and I make a move but she rejects, she tells her work girl-friends she rejected my advance. I then lose value in the sight of the other girls. But otherwise its really a catch-22... If I make a move and bang her and she gets pissed at something down the road, i.e., she wants more and I don't and becomes resentful, it opens up the possibility for trouble in the office later if we work together. If I don't make a move, she gets resentful that I didn't fuck her. I don't know... I guess you guys don't see this. Girls have just always gotten pissed or upset with me when I don't give them what they want - at some point there is something they want that I am not going to be able to give. That is why I try to avoid (ignore, actually) women at work as much as possible - don't make much eye contact, don't introduce myself, or get to know them, etc. - just hi-bye. Its just too much potential for a problem. Fortunately, our group has no young women except for this intern. Work is much better that way.

Not to be an ass, but maybe the reason 7 girls rejected your advance was because the other girls gossip had been going around since a bad approach with the first girl. If that is the case, no girl at your work is going to hook up with you at this point. One wrong move can squash everything. Girls talk, at work, at school, at everywhere. Girls that don't even know each other talk. Even if they don't know your name, they point you out and say "that guy over there made an awkward move on my friend in finance, he said ....". Then that girl tells her friend, the one you just smiled at, what she heard about you. Now 20 girls have a story about you. If you made a second move on another girl more girls heard about it, plus the girls from before have heard you got rejected twice. Its better to get rejected by being too good than being not good enough, its easier to come down than move up. Better to be seen as a jerk, only to be revealed later that you really aren't. All it takes is the right situation where one of those girls sees you in a way that changes your unattainability. Its much easier to explain that away as the girls still want you, its just that they currently protect themselves from auto-rejection.

 

[Chase]

Aviator-

Work scenarios are always sticky.

I like genuine compliments / sincere flattery in dicey social situations (they’re great everywhere, really... flattery will get you everywhere); if she likes you, she’ll read it as you expressing interest and will ramp up how many signals she gives and how widely she opens the window… if she doesn’t, hey, Aviator’s just a cool guy who recognizes and appreciate how on-point her sense of style is.

e.g., girl comes and starts posturing around you, obviously (or seemingly obviously) trying to get your attention: “You know, I am consistently surprised by how tight a dresser you are. The little roses on your genes match up perfect with the ones on your shirt. It’s really nice coordination.”

The nice thing here is it’s essentially rewarding the good behavior of putting herself on display in front of you, so regardless of whether she’s fishing for an actual connection or just trying to see if she can get a fan or a follower, she’ll take it well. The interested girl gets bashful or starts asking more questions; either way, it’s an invitation to proceed. The girl looking for fans gets proud or compliments you back, in which case you can just use her for flirting and preselection/social proof in the office. And the girl who’s neutral to you gives you a neutral response.

Re: what she does with other people, like Lao Che says, you’d probably never know. Thing to keep in mind here too is different men have different styles of game… one guy might wait for her to suggest something, while another guy dives in and asks first (quite possibly in a harmless way he could play off as something work-related or friendly if she isn’t interested – e.g., “Oh, you’re new? I should show you around sometime”). So even if she’s not the sort to suggest joining someone, doesn’t mean she’s out of reach to guys using that style of invite in a reputation-heavy environment.

As for what to do with her now, compliments are still a safe bet for gauging her response. If she’s in auto-rejection because of a missed escalation window, or if you took a value hit because she started sleeping with someone else, you’ll just get a cold response to it and know it isn’t worth pursuing. If you get a warm response, then you fish around a bit more and see what you can reel in.

Also, re: the other guys’ comments on obsessing too much over one girl… yeah. Tough thing about the workplace. Even for experienced guys… unavoidable proximity without closure/certainty is how they reel you in. Careful she doesn’t get you jumping through too many mental hoops for her without your even realizing it.

Chase

 

[ray_zorse]

hey Aviator dude I appreciate your comments, but I must say that one area where we differ is in the effect of asking girls out and getting rejected, overall it's a value boost (you had the balls to at least TRY to get what you wanted)... as a matter of fact several of the girls were married, but I didn't know that until I asked them for a date. So no reputation damage there, really. Anyway, all were happy to give their phone number, so I couldn't have fucked it up all that much. However, what I have experienced lately (in a different social circle) is that if you openly pursue several girls at the same time and they all know about it, then your value is very high (not only do you have the balls to try to get what you want, but you DGAF about social norms and you're totally honest in expressing attraction whereever and whenever it occurs)... but your attainability is low due to your player reputation, causing them to auto reject (ignore your text etc). Anyway, a player reputation is a lot better than a sad loner reputation.

About your comment of worrying what might occur down the track, well you never know until you try. If you manage expectations correctly and be honest and not an asshole, while still putting your own needs first, you'll probably retain their respect even if you or she eventually move on from the sexual relationship. Personally I feel the reference point of hitting on a girl in the workplace is more valuable than preserving my reputation/career/income, but then again my workplace is pretty relaxed and I have an independent income, I understand others' situation may differ. However, make a decision and stick to it -- if you won't game in the workplace or you do things purely on your terms and she doesn't comply, that's fine, but don't be upset about missed windows as a result, because you consciously didn't act.

Ray

 

[Aviator]

Chase,

Appreciate the comments. Definitely have no intention of getting too wrapped up in this girl - my only fault is getting wrapped-up in the analyzing of the situation. Think I'll just get back to what I normally do and stop giving a **** about anything.

Also, re: the other guys’ comments on obsessing too much over one girl… yeah. Tough thing about the workplace. Even for experienced guys… unavoidable proximity without closure/certainty is how they reel you in. Careful she doesn’t get you jumping through too many mental hoops for her without your even realizing it.

What kind of mental hoops would you be referring to?

@Ray

Maybe you are right... that has just been how I see it. I may be using value differently. You guys seem to see value from the girl's perspective, in which case, a guy she can have is more valuable than a guy she can't, or a guy she is banging is more valuable than one she isn't. I think more in terms of universal value - i.e., the perfect man who is able to reject 90% of females has more value than the 7/10 who would only reject 40% - regardless of who is banging who. You all are referring to a "local" subjective value, where I think in terms of the objective valuation. The fact that a girl auto-rejects means by default that you are of high-value - just too high value for that girl. Despite what most say, these girls do not lose attraction, they are always attracted to that guy, they just create a buffer to keep themselves from being hurt/rejected. The attraction is there somewhere and it can be pulled out no matter how difficult it may be.

The girls who try to reject a guy who didn't approach as being low value because "he didn't have the balls to approach" is just ego-preservation on their part - they know that is what it is. In the back of their mind they likely figure he is high-value and they are the ones who were rejected. Maybe the dude just didn't really care enough at that moment to approach, maybe blah blah blah, maybe a million different other reasons. Women just create these lies in their minds to keep them moving forward - to escape their lost hope and fear of not finding a mate (that fear consumes them with every potential guy that doesn't work out). Just because some girl wants my dick, why do i have to approach and if not be forever a lost cause? What if I just don't feel like it, if I'm busy, or am seeing someone else, or any other reason. Its just female proactive face-saving - they are psycho. Anyone who will go to such lengths as auto-rejection or the converse of assuming the guy is a "sad loser" any time some guy doesn't make a move, without understanding the complete circumstances, has to be insane. And women are. Why? because the reality is that that dichotomy makes no sense.

 

[ray_zorse]

What you're proposing is, that everything about a girl's reaction to a guy, is attainability-driven, and although that might be true in some cases, it's not the whole story. A lot of the behaviour we think of as low-value is also high-attainability, such as being needy and validation-seeking and desperate (not getting sex, wants a girl, any girl... feels inadequate without validation of a relationship... etc), but again that's not the whole story. Things like criticizing your girl a lot and putting her down... or failing to lead strongly... or failing to ask for a date (the #1 mistake that normal guys make)... or otherwise escalate... or poor conversation skills... or any kind of incongruent behaviour (likes women but acts gay... likes women but spends all time on fishing trips / drinking with the boys... is creepy)... poor personal hygiene... are low value behaviours that also DECREASE attainability, think of the poor girl who happens to fall for him despite he's a dick, yet despairs of making anything happen, he's so hopeless... my conclusion is that value and attainability, while interrelated, are two different things. As a rough guide:
- she lets you down gently and kindly: you're low value
- she blows you out harshly: you're unattainable.

As to intrinsic value -- refer to Chase's ebook. This was pribably one of my biggest "aha" moments -- there is no such thing as intrinsic value, only perceived value. Why this was a big epiphany was I was a guy who, at the time, would have had a lot of intrinsic value, if such a thing existed -- I was intelligent, successful at my job, yet liked to party a lot, had hobbies and interests that involved me considerably, had travelled to more countries than I could count, knew incredible amounts about history and culture, could speak swveral languages somewhat, was passably social, had a good sense of humour and a playful, teasing manner at times, yet totally sucked with women, why? Because they couldn't access this value, I became nervous and shy around anyone I was attracted to, was unconfident (lots of negative self talk), took a long time to warm up to new people (despite occasional flashes of brilliance which I now recognize as having occurred when "warmed up" and having social momentum), had no real plan in an interaction other than to qualify myself and be nice to people, often too nice, would be unnecessarily self deprecating at times yet boastful at other times, would make creepy eye contact, etc.

So basically although there was a lot of value it wasn't packaged or sold well and only my long term friends could access it. So basically I had little (perceived) lover or boyfriend value, but plenty of (perceived) friend value, and would regularly get friendzoned, to my immense frustration. But was I a high value, yet unattainable guy? Nope. Not selling your value = not having (perceived) value. There is no other way to put it. I would regularly use the excuse noted by Chase: "I am a great, high value guy... she couldn't see it, it's her loss, not mine". As Chase points out, it's not because she's stupid. It's because the value is not shown to her.

So I think this might be the trap you are falling into -- you didm't act and therefore didn't show her your value. But because you know you're a great guy, or would be if you coykd show her that side of yourself, you're writing everything off as attainability. Well, not making a move is -value, -attainability. So you're sort of on the right track. But, not expressing your desires and protecting your ego and making excuses for not acting, is IMO more of a value issue.

Ray

 

[Aviator]

Ray,

Those are good points. I agree with most of what you are saying. Yeah, it gets into economic theory a bit with subjective value theory, where things are only worth what someone else is willing to pay. However, there are some things which people can't even pay for, do those things have low value? There are many people who want a Ferrari, but they can't have it. The demand and amount produced raise their value. Most people see the Ferrari, they hear about it, but they don't get to enjoy it. Does its value go down? No. It is there for all those who can afford it. I don't think it is correct to refer to these situations as DLV. It would depend on the perception... did he not make a move because he didn't know what to do or was uncomfortable, or did he make a conscious choice not to pursue and why?

I think where I am going is slightly different. If someone has all those traits you mentioned and is good with girls but just chooses for whatever reason not to act then they are still high-value. Maybe the guy isn't into that girl, or maybe just a bad setup, etc. What it sounds like you are saying is that simply because some random girl shows interest and you decide not to act, that means you are of low-value. That doesn't really make sense. Michael Jordan doesn't become low-value because he didn't choose you to play on his pick-up basketball team when you wanted so badly to play on it. He is still high-value even though you despise him. Even if you make up in your head some justification that the reason he didn't pick you was because he was worried you may make him look bad and play second fiddle to your amazing skills, it simply isn't true. Deep down you know that. Everyone who sees MJ can see his value

again, I didn't act because I am at my job trying to keep all relationships professional - that has been my mindset. I am only now wondering if maybe it is safe in certain situations to proceed and assessing how.

At my last job, there were a multitude of girls who showed interest. My lack of pursuing them never lowered my value to any of the girls there. They continued to show interest along with the new girls.

Not making a move CAN be a sign of low value, it is not always. You can't remove the inaction from its context and make a value assessment.

 

[ray_zorse]

About your Ferrari example, that's low attainability, not low value. What I think you are trying to say is, a guy might be super hot, have options coming out his wazoo, yet not act when some random biyatch flirts with him, e.g. he has w girlfriend. And, yes, that might be a case of attainability. BUT... suppose he flirted with her (a little)... and she started exposing a lot more skin and basically throwing herself at him (maybe she knows he has a girlfriend but hopes he might still be down for a fling)... and, he's clearly attracted, yet does not act -> incongruent, not true to himself, low value. As I said, not making a move is nearly always a value issue, unless I suppose you acted totally disinterested from the start, but I highly doubt she would act this way in that case. Anyway though, attainability still plays a role:
Missed escalation window = you didn't have the balls to make a move (- value) + you didn't care enough to make a move (- attainability)

I still think you are making excuses for not having had the balls to act, though. If it wasn't bothering you you wouldn't have written the original post. Next time, pull the trigger bro

Ray

 

[Aviator]

About your Ferrari example, that's low attainability, not low value. What I think you are trying to say is, a guy might be super hot, have options coming out his wazoo, yet not act when some random biyatch flirts with him, e.g. he has w girlfriend. And, yes, that might be a case of attainability. BUT... suppose he flirted with her (a little)... and she started exposing a lot more skin and basically throwing herself at him (maybe she knows he has a girlfriend but hopes he might still be down for a fling)... and, he's clearly attracted, yet does not act -> incongruent, not true to himself, low value. As I said, not making a move is nearly always a value issue, unless I suppose you acted totally disinterested from the start, but I highly doubt she would act this way in that case. Anyway though, attainability still plays a role:
Missed escalation window = you didn't have the balls to make a move (- value) + you didn't care enough to make a move (- attainability)

I still think you are making excuses for not having had the balls to act, though. If it wasn't bothering you you wouldn't have written the original post. Next time, pull the trigger bro

Ray

Gotcha. The biggest thing here was the work situ.

Never have really had another opportunity to make a move (Well, I probably had one yesterday), however, today she and the other guy interns were talking about what they were doing and she mentioned to them "oh, I am leaving after work to go to NC" - she had already discussed this with them they were just reiterating because she asked one of the guy interns if he decided whether he was going to the beach. I asked what she was doing and she said "I am going to see my boyfriend...". So, she never indicated the entire past two months she had a boyfriend, nor acted like it. After that we were in the office and she starts mirroring everything I did - the way I would sit, arm positions, play with my hand, swing my chair, etc. and then stared at me for about 3-5 secs - she initiated. After we broke eye contact I saw her whispering something to her close friend intern and he looked at me and gave a partial smile, but I have no idea what the point was. If he asked why she was looking at me or she said I was staring at her - I have no idea. She also could have said she had a boyfriend because she was sticking to a story she used to turn down an invite to the beach with our other guy intern. The other part of me that has been questioning is just that this girl is a huge flirt trying to swoon the guys in the office so she gets invited back. So it went from her giving me strong IOIs to giving another guy or two stares or attention in my presence and to a boyfriend (although had I not asked what she was doing in everyone's presence, she never would have said anything about a boyfriend).

 

[Flames]

Co-worker game rules.

1) Strong eye contact
2) Teasing/Flirting
3) Absolutely do not discourage behaviour you like.
4) Do not change your frame ever. If you started off flirty do not turn into cold, distant and aloof.
5) No matter what what she says does/says only show interest in the things you like.
6) Everyday is a new day
7) Get compliance early
8) Nobody gives a damn if you chat up the new girl as long as its consistant with your frame.
9) Rules are made to be broken (or at least bent)

In your situation and if you actually interested in taking this girl out or whatever is start with number one. Just a slight increase in eye contact can really get you back in the game. I do mean slight though don't go full on creepy staring guy.

Smiling is a great way to non verbally convey encouragement.

I personally wouldn't compliment unless it's genuinely deserved.

 

[Aviator]

Co-worker game rules.

1) Strong eye contact
2) Teasing/Flirting
3) Absolutely do not discourage behaviour you like.
4) Do not change your frame ever. If you started off flirty do not turn into cold, distant and aloof.
5) No matter what what she says does/says only show interest in the things you like.
6) Everyday is a new day
7) Get compliance early
8) Nobody gives a damn if you chat up the new girl as long as its consistent with your frame.
9) Rules are made to be broken (or at least bent)

In your situation and if you actually interested in taking this girl out or whatever is start with number one. Just a slight increase in eye contact can really get you back in the game. I do mean slight though don't go full on creepy staring guy.

Smiling is a great way to non verbally convey encouragement.

I personally wouldn't compliment unless it's genuinely deserved.

Yeah, thanks for this. I am kinda indifferent to the compliments myself.

I just cannot in this case figure out the intentions of the girl in this situation. I don't like this setup I would rather just approach random girls while out - much less confusing. We have worked relatively closely the past couple days and she lightly touches my hand, arm, fingers just to where you get that tingly caressing sensation. Its definitely flirty for sure - it isn't friendly contact. Its "if we weren't at work this would escalate to sex contact". She makes me smiley faces, and has me tell her stuff to draw and she draws it. She gets very close at times and continues to bend over right in front of me when she knows only I can see. (She definitely feels comfortable with me in her space) She doesn't do this with other guys. She always withdraws her body from other guys. At the same time there are other key signals she is not giving. I notice with the other dude that she makes a point about them constantly making discrete eye contact, but she never does this with me from across the room, aside for the instance in my last post and during the first month. Maybe its because she isn't sure whether I am interested or something. I even saw her doing the kind-of sexy look-up eyes at him. (she did that with me for a few weeks but that was a while ago). Although when we are working together she will give me the long bright smiling in awe stares where we just look at each other for 5 secs at a time. She also checks out my dick quite regularly, I catch her. And then she tries to do things to give me an erection and watches to see if anything happened. She has been bringing up the other guy in passing like, "I bet 'otherdude' knows how to do it, maybe we should ask him." I just say, "yeah, go ask him he might know." She never does.

She is freaking confusing and I am in between she is interested in the other dude or making me jealous - because i do get a bit jealous. The problem is that it is hard for me to remain in my frame with all these emotions running around as I find myself so interested in what is happening between them. But she basically shows interest in the two of us, but not me when he is around - I just catch them constantly making eye contact. As much as I enjoy her being around, I'll be more clear-minded when she is gone.

 

[Flames]

Ok. It's not really that confusing, she may or may not like either of you or both of you. It doesn't matter. She may have decided she likes the other guy more, or more likely she likes you more but your less attainable (or giving mixed signals). As you say she's confusing you, so that means instead or presenting a rock solid frame your presenting a frame of "Indecisive". Make the decision and maintain your frame/composure.

What matters is your interest in her, if she isn't interested in you keep escalting and getting compliance until she either States it outright or gives you clear signs she's not interested.

Or if as you say, she isn't worth the hassle then "be a man" and let it go, just enjoy her company if you can do that or just back way off.

 

[Aviator]

Last night I was looking in on this girl I know through her window. She talked to me once so I'm sure she's into me. At one point she faced me and played with her hair which was a clear ioi. Then her bf came over and I'm pretty sure she just had sex with him to make me jealous. I'll never understand these women and their mixed signals. Help!! Please!!

Lmao

Sorry couldn't resist

This whole thread is a bunch of speculation and it's getting silly.

Here's how to tell a girl is into you:
Did she let you smash?
Yes-Into you
No-not into you

Bang done. Either way NEXT.

Don't really get how this is anyway the situation I am describing. She has given consistent indications she is interested, but at the same shifts and acts completely disinterested. She will talk and ask questions to the guys she wouldn't touch ever, but when talking to me when we aren't alone will not inquire a single thing about me. If we are alone she is has her hand on my hand and arm and is straight up bending right over from a stand still in my face and she is constantly looking at me with a super bright smile and holding eye contact. I think she is feigning disinterest. Its just the shit with the other guy that seems so direct that is throwing me off. That started after she threw a couple indications out about doing something after she had been eyeing me up and showing me her g-string.

I know now that they did not bang basically from the context of them interacting in various situations - do not communicate like two people who have ever said much to each other. Besides, he is married and I am sure that he would have told her at this point to stop giving obvious looks at him while at work - they can do that outside of work. We all went out for a group lunch - she sat next to him - he sat slightly turned from her. If he was cheating on his wife, I am sure he would have instructed her not to give any indication that there was interest - especially sitting next to each other at outings. They have never communicated anything outside of the light interactions at work and the eye contact. He came over to help us with something and he gave her a "hehe" jokingly about her laughing, which is something that would seem out of place if these two had already banged. She may be interested in him, she may also be playing some game with me to get me to make a move, she may have been pursuing him to get her mind off me as she knows it is "safe" because he is married. She can flirt with him as hard as she wants and not have to worry about it going somewhere. This girl is much younger than me... very possible she developed a crush and was trying to protect herself hence all the extreme interest/disinterest indications. Or maybe she has some fantasy about this guy cheating on his wife with her, who knows.

Its over anyway. She is gone until winter. She kept telling me "this is my last week" and other things like she wanted me to make a move. We just confused each other. I started out not trying to pursue because we were at work and then started having second thoughts, but that was about right when she started showing blatant interest in other guys around me. Maybe something will work out next time.