All you need is Love. Never mind, all you need is Fundamentals...

[Drck]

I sent similar text to a new guy recently via PM; In my humble opinion, this is what is most important in seduction and where every guy should spend 90% of all of his effort with girls:

* Good/Great Fundamentals - this is a must. You CAN'T be successful with women without fundamentals, simple as that. If nothing else, fundamentals is the foundation of all seduction. This includes cool, laid back and playful attitude. If possible (depending on personality) learn to be(come) more extroverted. There are lots of articles about fundamentals on GC, no reason to re-write them...
* Develop Abundance Mentality - Absolute Must. Talk to many girls, date many girls... Make this simple rule: The more the better...
* Develop Social Life. Get some good friends, build large(r) social circle... Again, the bigger the better...
* Do not Chase. This will probably take longer time to understand but it is also vital... Keep it simple: Do not Chase, if they want to go let them go... Smile, wave, one or two tears into your handkerchief - and that is it. She's gone, she will never come back. Suck it up. The more you Chase the further the girl will run away...
* Get a Life. Live for something. Whether it is education, good job, business, hobby, money, collecting of exotic stamps, fixing motorcycles... whatever it is, just get a life... Don't just sit home and play video games... Don't just sit home and over-analyze things with girls; it is pointless, it doesn't go anywhere...
* Physical exercise. It might help tremendously in developing not only great physique and health but also great mind set. There are many guys here who ignore this factor it but it is a huge plus. Tremendous plus, it will boost your performance by 30%. That is huge. You won't understand how BIG this factor is until you lift 400-500 pounds with your bare hands off the ground... IMO weight lifting and/or martial arts are the best as far as sport, but any sport is good enough... I'm TELLING you lift weights: not for me, for you...
* Understand that Rejections happen, they are inevitable... The more girls you'll interact with, the more rejections you will encounter. Rejections suck, rejections are painful, some may knock you down for long time... weeks, months, years... If you really like the girl and she shows you the boot, you may be paralyzed, depressed for long time... but there is just no other way. Have some escape plan, recognize early warning signs, recognize red flags... Then pull back, don't chase... Be ready to face rejections, lots of bitches out there will reject your cool ass...
* KISS: Keep this Shit Simple. Don't get overwhelmed. Talking and interacting with 10 girls it is one hundred times better than reading and analyzing 500 GC articles... Dealing with girls is NATURAL, intuitive... The more you are exposed to girls, the better you'll become...
* And fuck no - don't pay a dime for information that is readily available everywhere... Don't pay 2 cents. BUT WHATEVER DUDES, if you want to pay, just pay - but it is like paying for porn $100 per month, while having free access to 5 million of free porn sites... Porn is free, girls are free, seduction skills are free as well... There are not magic pills, you got to put some work in...
* Last thing, avoid all the Caspar-ade. You are who you are, you can't change it, nor should you. Don't try to be this great guy or that cool guy. Be yourself. Get in tune with yourself, accept who you are, learn to like who you are - learn to be comfortable with who you are... It will help you tremendously, not only in seduction but in Life...

DO the above, and 85% of all seduction work is done... No, 95% IS DONE...

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Drck,

It's a good post! We could debate about exactly what you mean by "be yourself", when in fact you advocate many personal changes in your other points, but besides that I overall agree. There are a couple of points I would add to the list though.

* Learn to read, deflect and use frames. What is the underlying meaning implied by the way words were chosen and crafted? Ex: "Her: if you want to meet me today, use this phone number: XXXXX." This is implying that you are the one pursuing her. Answer: "Me: if you want to meet me today, just be at XXX coffee shop at 1pm. No need for the phone." Implying that I couldn't give two shits if she comes or not, and thus successfully deflecting her chase frame.

* Be keenly aware of how your communication positions yourself vs. other people. It's another frame thing. Are you positioning yourself above, at the same level, or below your interlocutor. The Boss frame: "Alright, I want this report on my desk by the end of the day." whether or not there is a hierarchical link between you, you clearly position yourself above by the tone and choice of words. Comment seen on Instagram over a half naked girl: "I would love to be drinking the water of your bath". The guy positions himself at the level of her filth. With girls, you want of course to position yourself above them.

Knowing this stuff will help tremendously the seductions, especially given that the girls are instinctive masters of frames.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[foggy]

* Good/Great Fundamentals - this is a must. You CAN'T be successful with women without fundamentals, simple as that. If nothing else, fundamentals is the foundation of all seduction.

Having amazing fundamentals makes it less effort for you to attract women and get them into bed. I remember when I had to bust my ass off to get women giving me sparkly eyes, and now I barely have to do anything simply because I’ve improved my fundamentals.

Another thing about having great fundamentals is that women look good to other people (their own value increases) when they are with you.

* Develop Abundance Mentality - Absolute Must. Talk to many girls, date many girls... Make this simple rule: The more the better...

True, full abundance mentality is difficult to achieve. However achieving (partial) abundance with a certain segment of girls will give you a great advantage. Even if you're not able to get the 7-8s you desire yet, being able to lay 6s whenever you want + dating 2-3 girls at once will work wonders for your mindset.

* Develop Social Life. Get some good friends, build large(r) social circle... Again, the bigger the better...

In the past when I've asked for a girl's number and she told me to add her on facebook instead, i've passed her up on the offer. However now I always give her an add. I know that I probably won't be banging her but it's still worthwhile to add her to my social circle. Who knows I might see her at the bar and a brief chat with her could do wonders for preselection.

* Do not Chase. This will probably take longer time to understand but it is also vital... Keep it simple: Do not Chase, if they want to go let them go... Smile, wave, one or two tears into your handkerchief - and that is it. She's gone, she will never come back. Suck it up. The more you Chase the further the girl will run away...

Not chasing is overall less effort too...

* Get a Life. Live for something. Whether it is education, good job, business, hobby, money, collecting of exotic stamps, fixing motorcycles... whatever it is, just get a life... Don't just sit home and play video games... Don't just sit home and over-analyze things with girls; it is pointless, it doesn't go anywhere...

Richard has said before that dedicating himself to helping people gave him an edge.

He describes it here: https://boards.girlschase.com/viewto ... f=3&t=2392

 

[Drck]

Good Points

What does it mean “just be yourself”? It’s probably more complex because many guys don’t know themselves - therefore they just can’t be it at first place...

On more basic level, it is about knowing what you like and sticking to it. For example, I am more introverted, and I got an offer from a hot girl to visit her at her place for a party. There were high vibes and she was quite interested in me. But I declined because I don’t really enjoy parties or high volume of people. I counter-offered more private setting, one on one in my place, which she declined. Now, I know that if I went to the party I would have probably hook up with her, but since I didn’t I lost great opportunity. The point is, I went with who I am, “I was just being myself” - I didn’t change anything because of her.

Some guys may argue that I’m just being silly because I let the opportunity go. I disagree, because I actually setup very strong frame - she would have to follow my lead (to my place) and not the other way. I will not follow her suggestions or ideas, she has to adjust to my frame. Should her interest level be high enough, she would chose to go to my place. Done, nothing else is needed, all seduction ‘work’ is done...
Of course I miss that girl, but I know it wouldn’t work out anyway in long term, she was just too social and I’m too introverted... But to me, more valuable is my solid frame vs changing myself because of her...

But again, I could have been with this girl if I decided to follow HER frame, go to the party and be (pretend to be) more social - but I would have to change a lot to make my personality fit hers, and she would have to change hers to fit mine... Over time I kind of realized though that there is no point to it - no matter what I would have done, I would simply remain the same guy as always; a guy that simply doesn’t enjoy parties, a guy who is not that social.... That’s who I am, and I learned to be happy with it...

See, if I went to the party it would have to be lots of work, lots of pushing and pulling, convincing, seducing, socializing, this and that, different superficial and fake conversations about nothing... WTF? I’m not saying that it is not working, but that is just not me...

On higher level it is accepting what you like and being in tune with the it without changing to someone else, without changing personality. Would I want to be famous rock star who has girls throwing at him and is popular where he goes? Who throws parties and has bunch of girls every weekend? Sure, why not, that would be amazing. But that is not who I am....

You are also talking about personal changes, which seem to be contradictory. It’s really not. In the above example, I can ADD something to my personality - such as increasing number of friends and/or social circle. Increasing number of girls I talk to. Talking more to random people I meet and do forth. Or make some compromise, go to some neutral place such as restaurant. But, I wouldn’t try to be extrovert or rock star, e.g. I wouldn’t go to a crowd full of people and tried to yell at every girl that walks by to show that I am a cool extrovert... I keep my frame, I don’t follow anybody else’s frame... That is a HUGE VALUE because girls can feel it. They either accepted or not... All work is done right there...

 

[Chase]

Oh, come on, Drck. Good high level advice, 90% of your post. But then you're telling guys not to analyze, not to study, not to get coaching or buy products. If guys read this and listen to you, or even read it and then have moments of doubt where they go, "Maybe I shouldn't [whatever]," you're going to mess people up.

Yeah, I know, you're not an analysis guy. You've never bought a thing in your life. That works for you, that's excellent. I knew one very skilled guy who was about half of your description. He never paid for anything, but he did torrent Mystery Method and apply that to his own natural game and it made him wickedly good with girls. And I've had natural friends who did very well with women before they'd ever encountered the seduction community. Though I will tell you a secret, every natural I know who finds out about PUA delves into it extensively. Usually he'll dismiss a lot of it, but find different hidden gems he likes and uses. Which is what most guys do. It's what I've always done, it's what I'm sure you do, it's what the readers here do. It's just what people do.

Study and analysis are improvement rocket fuel. You don't want to go deep into material, you can still learn. It's just going to take you 4-5x as long. Which also means you will never hit your peak, because there's a shelf-life on bachelordom. Nobody's still a PUA at 40, unless he divorced somewhere along the lines.

As for products and coaching... Christ, I hate having to defend the point of the business, there's no way to not make it look self-serving. If it's any help, I have defended products and coaching my entire life, including before I had a business selling products and coaching, and back when I never ever intended to run my own business ever.

The idea of "people don't need products or coaching" sounds really attractive on the surface of it. But it's absolute bollocks.

I cannot tell you how many new entrepreneurs I've talked to, and they tell me about this restaurant they've just opened or this online business they've just launch or this app they've just released. The first thing I always ask is, "What products have you studied and who've you coached with?" The answer is usually that they haven't studied anything and haven't coached with anyone. Usually they read that book by Robert Kiyosaki and thought it was great. Or maybe they read Tim Ferriss. Sometimes they don't even know those guys. Every single one of these people I have talked to like this has been out of business within a year.

On the other hand, the business owners I ask this question to who answer by spooling off a list of products they've gone through and coaches they've worked with, every one of them I'm still in contact with is still in business, and many of them are doing very well. 6 or 7 or 8 figures a year revenues well.

I mean, think about your advice here. Give it some real thought. Would you tell:

- An entrepreneur
- A marketer
- A teacher
- A police officer
- A soldier
- A chess player
- A basketball player
- A community organizer

... that he does not need to attend classes, or buy good/suitable products, or seek out a coach or mentor to train him? That he should figure it out on his own and just be himself?

This whole alpha male manosphere "I don't need nothin' from no one. I can do it all by myself" mentality is so counterproductive as to be inane. I mean, from all perspectives, it is a WASTE OF TIME. And time is the most precious thing any of us has here. *Time* is what it is really all about.

Yes. You can learn anything a coach or product can teach you, on your own. It is going to take you at minimum 4-5x as long, and require mountains more work to get to the same level as the guy who gets a good product or coach that matches his style and desired outcome. But you can do it. The question is, is it worth it to you to devote 4-5x as much time and energy to get the same outcome?

Someday you're going to die. That day will get here faster than you think. But long BEFORE that day, you are going to tire of the game. There are few men still active as bachelors dating and sleeping with scads of girls at age 40, unless they've recently divorced. And there is a fair chance you have other things you want to do with your life before age 40.

What products and coaching (again, if they're matched to your style - get the wrong product or the wrong coaching, that doesn't match you as well, and it won't be so helpful) give you is more TIME. Time to do whatever you want.

Instead of spending your ENTIRE 20s figuring out women, you can spend a few years of your 20s to figure out women. Then build a career. Or become a mountain climber. Or do something else cool.

Same for any kind of products/coaching. Instead of spending 3 years trying to figure out how to market your startup and burning through millions of investor capital, you can figure it out and get your marketing to work for you in 8 months... if you've had good marketing training or a solid marketing coach.

I have sought out coaches and mentors my entire life. I have consumed loads of products, books, videos, audio, you name it on every field of interest to me. And I have also put tremendous elbow grease into every area of my concern. My results would be dramatically lower in any field I'm involved in if any of those pieces were removed.

Finally, I'll say this. Beyond the insult to this website, the posters here, the coaches here, and me, from stating that what we do has no value and I presume that we must be charlatans/scammers (PUAHate much?), that you would demean the tradition of one human being handing down knowledge and expertise to another human being shows a very poor level of respect for the human condition. This is one of the central tenets of classical civilization. It's what has made civilization POSSIBLE: this codifying, cataloguing, packaging, and passing on of information to those who come after us, so each generation is not forced to learn every single thing from scratch completely on its own. You can live in the wilderness and be an island on your own if you want. But don't insult those of us who seek out training, and who provide it. We are the builders of civilization, and we are its inheritors.

Chase

 

[Drck]

* Ok. I’ll take back that couching and not buying products

* True, I over-analyze myself, pretty much everything. Nevertheless, I don’t think over-analyzing is needed in order to be successful

* There are different levels of material a guy can get into in order to be successful. Let’s compare seduction to math for a sec – one can complete couple college courses in math and become pretty good, he has more math skills than he needs in his entire life and probably at work as well. Can he do Masters and PhD in math? Of course, there is nothing wrong with it, it’s actually pretty good to have advanced math skills. The same with seduction, basic material will get an average guy far, further than most guys are out there. But realistically, does one need PhD in seduction? Probably not. But again, it is good to have it. What you guys offer is simply PhD - great stuff, but it is way more than most average guys need. There is nothing wrong about it, but IMO most guys don’t really need to be mysterious guys with 500+ lays... they’ll be happy with getting a great GF and move on...

* My points above were to give some guidance to create a solid framework. If one invests 100% effort into something, he can be say 90% efficient. Or only 10% efficient, depending where he invests his effort...

Analogy Example:

Guy A spends in fitness 2 hours, runs around different equipments, he tries this and tries that, but in the end there is not much efficiency. He is exhausted, tired, and most likely he won't come again. He does that 6 days a week, but only for the next 2 weeks, than he gives up because he is exhausted. Result: Very high effort, very low efficiency, no results.

Guy B is more focused. He only does 3 specific exercises in 5 series - say squats, bench press and rows. 5 repetitions in 5 series (5x5, excellent program). He's done in 30-45 minutes, then he goes home, not really that exhausted and not that tired. Repeats only 3x per week. But, he doesn't quit because he is not exhausted, and after 6 months he has tremendous gains. Result: Very high efficiency with fairly average effort, good/above average results.

Guy C is even more focused. He exercises 6 days a week, twice a day, for years to come. He becomes champion, his name is Arnold. Results: Very high effort, very high efficiency, great results.

Who out of these 3 is most efficient? Guy B because with fairly average effort he can have very good results. He won't become Arnold, but again - there is only one Arnold...

... so, back to seduction, once a guy has a solid frame girls will start showing up in his life automatically, and then, assuming that a guy has average IQ and average social skills, it’s fairly easy to figure out what to do next for simple reason: Once a girl shows high interest in a guy, his confidence shoots way up, without even trying. With high confidence a guy can move forward with ease... Results: Very high efficiency with fairly average effort, because he is focusing most of his energy on the most important things...

----------

* As far as charlatans, scammers and PUA, and most likely seduction as well, there is lots of stigma out there. At the same time there is probably quite a good reason for that because it simply appears fake many times.

See it from average guy point of view: Say you are a hard working guy who has a decent job. You pay high taxes because you work your ass off. You also date a girl for 2 years already, you know all her family and friends, and you are saving money because you plan marriage and family, you love your girl... You already know her for 10 years since middle school. You know how hard it was to get a first date from her, you know that it took all 6 months before she finally slept with you, but somehow you managed to pull it off anyway and now she is your GF…

But now some PUA with no job shows up, she just met him “randomly” in the mall. He does some palm or cards reading, he runs some NLP on her, he pretends some confidence/sexiness, he talks about mysterious things, he knows when to act because he recognizes windows - and he takes your girl away from you… to the hotel where he screws her on the first date. Which, as we know, is not really date at all, it was simply deliberate and well pre-meditated move practiced on many girls before… But, that is not all. This guy stays only for 2 weeks, and then he dumps her and moves on to another city or state, onto another girl... Girl after girl...

If you were this kind of hard working guy, wouldn’t you get pissed if some PUA with no real value, no real job, took away your girl? You could be devastated. There are many good and decent guys just like that, who can’t even get girl at first place…

... Good for us who have some knowledge, but don't forget there are many guys who are not that fortunate, who don't like PUA or seduction just because of the above prejudice... Not everybody comes across seduction or PUA, IMO most guys wouldn’t touch it for the above reasons...

I'm not trying to moralize, in life only the strongest survive… but IMO simply providing real value is much better than fake one... I'm saying it because I witnessed good girls who were ready to leave their decent hard working guys for somebody who gained this kind of knowledge and who wasn’t even serious about that girl at first place...

Perhaps that also boils down to a deeper question - how much do we actually care about others and about society at all... Ok, enough moralizing... I’m not against you guys, IMO I’m just bringing another point of view on the same thing…

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

I'm not trying to moralize, in life only the strongest survive

But your entire post was a monstrous moral appeal. Like, pretty much only that. And not a good one, either. Your entire analogy of the average guy getting cucked did not once take into account the woman's feelings (she's probably bored as hell with this guy) or the morality of the species as a whole (that guy reproducing over the seducer is, uh, not good gene selection). If you're going to play the moral authority card, play the whole hand. Strange to preach morality, then ignore most of the agents involved in the moral equation. Moral relativism. Applies to one, but not others.

As for the exercise analogy, that doesn't make any sense. Getting muscular requires very little knowledge or intuition. It's quite literally the most rote process imaginable. Go to gym, lift, eat, rest, repeat. The only significant factor is the motivation to actually do it.

Girls is an INFINITELY more complex problem and any time/efficiency comparison of the two is just horrible, because their variables are in different universes.

But, despite your rhetorical insufficiencies, what I can't figure out is if this is how you feel, if you're against the capability of a seducer going around breaking hearts, then why are you here? Are the evangelist natural of the GC boards who's here to keep us in check with moral boundaries?

We are lovers of women. I'm not sure if you've read any articles recently, because you don't read material and all that, but we make it pretty clear that we try not to emotionally hurt women or outright manipulate women, but do not be mistaken, someone will get hurt.

You are either a moth or the flame. You can't be both and you cannot be neither.

Our methodology contains the capacity for great beauty and great horror if misused.

However, if a girl gets swept up in some romance by a loser, vagabond PUA, then that's on her. She's a grown woman who can make her own decisions. Otherwise, you're saying that women cannot make autonomous decisions, because they are children. And I don't think you're saying that.

We're all adults here, so let's act like them. That being said, I must ask - why are you here if you so strongly disagree with many of our fundamental concepts and our traditional style of education (student pays teacher, teacher teaches student) that Chase has outlined as not only the crux of our community but the crux of human civilization?

 

[Drck]

I've seen you on youtube Hector, good video. Let's just say I've been around little bit longer than you, your cool rhetorical sufficiencies, pretty eyes, cool hair and wisdom of guy in his early 20's (???) just don't do it for me. But that is what I was talking about, should you ask.

If I could suggest though, you (guys) should also do some public speaking. Maybe seduction seminar with bunch of new and advanced guys would be good, see e.g. Ross Jeffries videos. Or even better, some videos directly from the field would be cool, perhaps interviews with girls who fell for a lover (only assuming that those videos were not done yet)...

Just a thought ;-)

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

Okay, let me get this straight

1. You evaded everything I said

2. You complimented me with an abundance of sarcasm and sardonism (I'd been fine if you addressed my points then got some snipes in there, like I did...that's just good rhetoric, but you went full rhetoric...)

3. Then you proceed to tell me, after said compliments, that I don't "work for you."

For some reason, the same flags that go off in my head when a chick tells me "I'm not going to sleep with you tonight, but you are cute" just went off.

Yes, much older and wiser. I see it clearly now. Great job. Top kek.

Hector

 

[Chase]

Drck-

Yeah, I think we're mostly on the same page. Cheers for the thoughtful response. It's clear you give thought to your positions, and also the positions of those you dialogue with.

If you go through every bit of material on this website, I agree, it's a PhD in seduction and more than the average guy needs. I've tried to make the basic stuff as accessible as possible for guys to get access to. And we try to link basic/introductory articles in new articles to make sure guys get directed back to the basics if they're new to the site. The goal is always to direct guys back to basics. And let them decide from there if they need more.

(actually, navigation's been a sore point for me for years... feeling like it's harder for new readers to find important beginner pieces on various topics. Varoon, Franco, and Alek had some suggestions just recently I am quite excited about for having "article tracks" that should make it super easy to navigate for specific subject areas guys want to learn... social circle track, nightlife track, sex talk track, etc. Which is another aspect of learning - different guys want to learn different things. Some guys do not care at all about going to bars and won't read articles on them; they just want to do social circle. Or some guys don't care at all about picking up; they meet girls when they meet them, and what they are most interested in is relationships. One of the challenges of a site like this is if you want the site to be big - and we do a little over a million visits a month now - you need to be able to serve a broad variety of different people in search of different kinds of educations)

This is another thing we do with products. One of the complaints we've heard over the years with products is "it's too basic" or "there's nothing there I didn't already learn from the articles" (though we also get complaints of "there is too much information" "it's too hard" - everybody's different). But that's kind of the point; most guys will not take the time to read 2,000 articles which scatter all the lessons across millions of words. They want one simple, condensed package of the most essential basics to get out there and get going. (was also a weird thing I had to juggle with One Date... how do you make it condensed enough to give the guys the basics in quick, easy, digestible format, then get out of the way, while also satisfying the customers who are looking for deep, novel stuff they haven't seen anywhere else? I think we pulled it off, but it's also why the damn thing's taken 2 years to build and roll out)

The main thing to keep in mind is different guys interact with different things in different ways. I'll give you examples of guys who interact with Girls Chase:

• There's the guy who stops by, reads an article or two, says to himself, "I don't see how this is any better than Dr. Phil" and leaves

• There's the guy who stops by, says, "Geez, these nerds do way too much analysis. Get a life! Just be yourself. I'll bet these losers never get laid, no one who thinks this much could ever get laid," and leaves

• There's the guy who stops by and says, "Whoa. This article solves exactly the problem I was having. This is awesome," and then he goes, fixes his problem, and never comes back

• There's the guy who stops by and says, "Whoa. This content is terrific. But man, it seems so hard. There is SO much information. Do I have to read ALL of it?" And then he gets kind of lost and overwhelmed (to be fair, I think we've actually done a fair bit to combat this. We used to get a lot more guys saying they were overwhelmed trying to read it all than we do now. I *think* that's because of the quiz - guys take that and get a focused path to be on. But I'm not 100% sure why this complaint is so much lower now than it used to be)

• There's the guy who stops by and says, "Some of this content is good. Some of it is stuff I already know. I'll poke around and see what's usable and use that."

• There's the guy who stops by and says, "Lol, this site is a laugh. Some of this content is fun to read." And then he stops by regularly to read the content recreationally

• There's the guy who stops by and says, "Holy shit, this is exactly what I've been looking for. Holy shit holy shit holy shit this place is a gold mine." This is the guy who's most likely to read all the articles and buy products. This is the kind of guy I am with any new field I'm involved in, and in general these guys will be your best customers (which any business needs to not die... and heck, you want to serve the people who love you most and will implement your stuff most with the best service you can muster, that's just general good business sense and good human sense), so we probably optimize most for this kind of guy

There are probably a half dozen other types of guys who hit this site. Some of them fit into that category I assume you addressed with your first post, of "guy who doesn't really need all this stuff but feels like he 'has to' or is 'supposed to' learn it all." When guys ask me that I tell them the same thing: dude, you probably don't need it, just take some basic stuff, try it out, and if you decide you want more then come back and add in more. Don't go nuts trying to be an mPUA when maybe all you want is a little simple tech to flirt with girls or ask some girl out on a date.

--

On the "guy got burned because a PUA shagged his girlfriend" analogy, that's... I mean, I don't think that has happened to a lot of guys. But yeah, there are guys it happens to. But in general I don't think most men who've been cheated on go, "Aha! It was one of those PUAs! That's who stole my lady from me!" They just get mad about some random guy sticking his ding-dong in her hoo-ha.

Interestingly, many of the guys who learn PUA are guys who've been cheated on. And many of the guys who despise PUA are also guys who've been cheated on. So my guess is it's down to psychological profile. Some guys get burned and say, "Well if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." While other guys get burned and say, "I'm going to show those guys, not to mention all these morally bankrupt women who love them, just how wrong they are!"

Both the seduction community and the manosphere are stacked to the ceiling with men who've been cheated on. But despite similar origin stories, they go very different ways.

Life's funny, I guess.

Chase

 

[Drck]

Hector, I don't really want to go there because your comment is so negative and I am too honest and blunt, you wouldn't like my answer. I'll give you preview:

* "Your entire analogy of the average guy getting cucked did not once take into account the woman's feelings (she's probably bored as hell with this guy)"
>>>> If you actually read some of my other comments you would know that I addressed this many times.

* "Morality of the species as a whole"
>>>> That is a huge subject, to even touch it would require it's separate topic. What is morality at first place? Who decides what is moral and immoral, and what is his or her decision based on? Who can judge what is good or bad moral, and again based on what? Answering these question would take couple pages, and that's probably before we could even start reasonable conversation

* "Getting muscular requires very little knowledge or intuition. It's quite literally the most rote process imaginable. Go to gym, lift, eat, rest, repeat"
>>>> Says who, guy who's never been in gym? Ok bro, point taken. Maybe try it first though before you wipe of off the table

* "Girls is an INFINITELY more complex problem"
>>>> Well, it depends how you really look at it. Girls are not that difficult, providing that if you (any guy) has a good frame. They adjust to your frame when they accept your lead. From that stand point of view seduction is actually very easy.

* "However, if a girl gets swept up in some romance by a loser, vagabond PUA, then that's on her"
>>>> You know, you are just so blinded. You think you know much better than PUA. Don't forget that seduction has lots of similar things with PUA, when you look around what others are teaching, you'd know that the base is pretty much the same. The SAME things described in different words. I studied PUA before GC went online, so most of the stuff you guys are describing I already knew. GC uses lots of PUA material that is simply built on the top of it. As a matter of fact, some of the original PUA or Seduction material described online goes little bit further to the past, say year 2000. You may be able to find some older blogs with dates that go back to early 2000, search for example for no-maam, solomon, book of pook. These guys were writing about this stuff almost 2 decades ago, and they must have been in field for couple years to have that knowledge... Again, there is a lot of THE SAME material as is presented here.

* Your video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEv1ttilshA
Bro! You ARE a Nice Guy. I see it in the way you talk and express yourself. For example, you already look feminine the way you talk - long hair, your movements, shape of your face... Did I see that you paint your nails, or was it somebody else? You have a face of a boy, cute and rounded, but that is not face of man - there is no need to pretend to be even more feminine, that is ridiculous. It's a joke! (and that is why I say many times that there is lots of BS in seduction)

Again, don't take it the wrong way, it is just different style, it might work great for you and bunch of other guys. But what might work for you even better is add some real masculinity to it. Go to gym, lift some weights, put some muscular features on - and you can easily cut the girly stuff you are doing by half....

* "We are lovers of women"
>>>> OK, I wrote this recently under another topic (copied):

-------------------------------------------------
Maybe we should find out what is the meaning of being a lover first.

Women are sweet, it is difficult - if not impossible - not to love them. But you also want to fuck them.

"Love"can be described in many ways, and it probably has more meaning. You can really care about her and her life, worry about her, feel strong connection with her, maybe you want to be around her all the time, marry her, get to gown all her family members and friends, eventually have family with her.. Is it love, are you a lover if you do so? Or are you just a sucker immature Beta male? Are 80% guys immature suckers?

You can also pretend that you are a lover - you can have great vibes with her, have great sex and emotional connection, but as soon as the weekend is over you move to another city, perhaps back to your GF, or just another girl.
Is that also a love, are you also a lover? Do you really love that girl and if so - why did you leave her and move away from her while looking for another girl? Are you just amazing Alpha male, can you really 'love' tens or hundreds of women - never mind remembering their names or in which city did you actually met her?

Or, you may not care about women at all. You just move from city to city, fuck any girl that you can without carrying much at all. It's perhaps just a sport fuck, lots of fun.
Well, in that case you are perhaps more of a fucker than lover, but that is also a love because can't really say that you don't love women...

So what is a lover at first place? Shouldn't we start using new expression, such as lover-fucker?
-------------------------------------------------

The expression "lover" can mean many things, there are many lovers of women - in their own way...


* "Strange to preach morality, then ignore most of the agents involved in the moral equation."
>>>> I'm not really sure if I really preached morality. There are many guys out there who don't follow seduction/PUA/Red Pill and so on, they wouldn't simply touch it because it sounds fishy. There are probably more reasons to it, I described some (above). Again: How moral is it to move from a girl to girl, take her away from average decent guy in the example above (who is clueless about seduction nor have desire to learn it)? You talk for example about feelings: OK, I bet your feelings are great because you can have fun with women. The feelings of that girl might also be great, perhaps just temporally, but I can tell you one thing: In LONG term it may not be so. But how about feelings of that guy? You can destroy that guy's life by taking his girl away.

There are some 320 mil of people in USA. Out of that half are men, say 160 millions. Out of that, just to say some number, say that roughly only 1/3 is interested in women. That is over 50 millions of guys. Some probably have some basic game, but how many of these 50 million guys are studying seduction or PUA? Very few, I would say only thousands, I would be very surprised if it is more than say 10,000. But say it is 100,000. That is a very LOW number percentage wise. Just because you belong to this low percentage number doesn't really make your genes better than genes of other guys.


... Never mind, got to go...

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

Okay, now a good discussion. I appreciate it, Drck.

If you actually read some of my other comments you would know that I addressed this many times.

Don't see any.

That is a huge subject, to even touch it would require it's separate topic.

1. Presents moral framework

2. When confronted with a challenge to moral framework slips away to a "Well, we'd need to ground ourselves in our moral assumptions." No. You've made your case. Defend it. We'll put footnotes as we go along.

Says who, guy who's never been in gym? Ok bro, point taken. Maybe try it first though before you wipe of off the table

Did you just ask, "Do you even lift, bro?"?

Been jacked on three separate occasions and know the ins and outs of cutting and gaining. Cutting right now.

My boxer body - https://www.instagram.com/p/BGzwh_cMm5R ... kecasanova

2 Months of me consistently lifting after I quit boxing and on my way to jacked - https://www.instagram.com/p/BNSC6jChKNy ... kecasanova

In other words, I do lift. Any further criticisms from you on the subject will require pics.

Well, it depends how you really look at it. Girls are not that difficult, providing that if you (any guy) has a good frame. They adjust to your frame when they accept your lead. From that stand point of view seduction is actually very easy.

My turn for "Do you even lift, bro?"

Do you even seduce? Where are your lay reports? Your videos? I see the pretty grand strategies of "hold frame, get bitches," but not the dirty results.

You know, you are just so blinded. You think you know much better than PUA.

In no way did that entire paragraph respond to, "If the girl gets seduced and fucked, that's on her." You can't evade this one - do girls have moral agency or not? If she cheats on her husband, he probably wasn't running good relationship game and was looking for something else. Don't hate the player, hate the game and all that.

Bro! You ARE a Nice Guy. I see it in the way you talk and express yourself. For example, you already look feminine the way you talk - long hair, your movements, shape of your face... Did I see that you paint your nails, or was it somebody else? You have a face of a boy, cute and rounded, but that is not face of man - there is no need to pretend to be even more feminine, that is ridiculous. It's a joke! (and that is why I say many times that there is lots of BS in seduction)

Did you watch the video? I addressed all of these points. And as I say at the end of it, call me feminine or whatever all you want, "this girl still gonna take all your bitches." What's more manly? Being "manly" or fucking bitches?

The latter.

All the masculinity you need is being sexually aggressive. While manly man is posturing, I grab her ass. While manly man is pretending to be stoic, my hands are down her pants.

Sexual masculinity = aggression.

@Lover

A lover gives her the best experience he can while he's with her. Good conversation, good vibes, and hard cock. This can be one night or iterated 100000x over during a lifelong relationship. If those good vibes involve providing for her in a long-term relationship because you're raking in hordes of cash and you want her to take care of your spawn, it's really just good vibes in the end.

Everything else is details.

I'm not really sure if I really preached morality.

You previously went into a diatribe on how we need to ground all of our arguments with some dissertation on morality.

Okay, so you're well read in morality. You would know then that there is

- Descriptive ethics
- Applied ethics
- Meta-ethics
- Normative ethics

All of which, if discussed, are considered "moralizing" or in your case, "Preaching morality." If you tell men, "Well, consider how the girl feels, huh?" or "Consider how the husband feels if you fuck his wife, huh?"

That's proselytizing. If you were applying some Socratic method, it'd be clear, but that's not what you're doing.

You're allowed to have a moral stance. You're allowed to have your own perspective. You're allowed to say what you want, but be honest about it. You're preaching. You're advertising Red Pill frameworks. Conservationism. That's fine. It's effective. It works. I dig that shit, except for the really fundamental misogyny at the heart of it all. It's really weird. They pretend to be all conservative and looking out for women, but then hate on women when women are, well, women.

That's the great paradox - love women for what they are, but try to mold them into the form of femininity we want with strong frame control. Women are water and all that nice metaphorical stuff.

Good discussion.

Hector

P.S. For clarity, my comment isn't negative. Like you, I am honest and direct. I'm sure that since you can dish it out, you can handle it back, no?

Though, if we are being honest, your entire first post was criticizing Girls Chase, PUA, i.e., what I do for a living. If we're talking who's mean and who's not, I didn't really throw any punches at all compared to you. You went straight for the jugular and I'm simply smiling back. Imagine if I went to your place of employment and told you that all of your training and experience was for nothing and that all you have to do is follow this poetic mantra and in no time, any new guy off the street could replace you at your job.

Wouldn't feel very good, now would it? You'd probably take a swing or two at me.

P.P.S. - You still haven't answer my question. Why are you here? I'm not saying "get out," because that's not my place, and I'm sure you've helped out some homies, I'm just genuinely curious why you would spend so much time on a forum for a website that you disagree with fundamentally?

The gents over at https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/ would be happy to have you.

 

[Drck]

Did you watch the video? I addressed all of these points. And as I say at the end of it, call me feminine or whatever all you want, "this girl still gonna take all your bitches." What's more manly? Being "manly" or fucking bitches?
>>>> I watched only 1-2 minutes, that’s all I need to know

You don’t have masculine appearance at all, you have girly appearance, eg rounded face. It’s hard to believe that you lift weights, lifters usually have masculine face, but whatever, I could be wrong, it might be the illumination. Nevertheless, you behave like a girl on the video, which is ridiculous (that’s what I meant). You don’t have to do that to get girls at all. I’m not saying it is not working - it might, but so do many other things...

Ok, just saw the Instagram. You lift some weights, good. Keep lifting, do deadlift, say 400 pounds, do some heavier squats, and then send another pic.

———

Points 1 and 2 I don’t even understand what you talking about. What moral framework? Again, the same questions - morals based on who and what? Who can judge? Is religion involved? Who in your opinion is more moral of these two:

* Guy A, boring provider, who takes care of his wife and children, who is faithful and goes to church on Sundays, just because all his family goes?
* Guy B, Seducer or PUA who moves from girl to girl but never provides, but who gives her hard dick? Who goes to the beach on Sundays because that’s where all his bodies are having party every week?

————

Lay report can be made up, there is no point, anybody can write what he wants, there is no way to verify it. If you told me that you slept with 2 girls or 500, honestly I could care less about either number. I would be surprised if I even clicked on that tab 3x since I discovered GC. So there you go.

At the same time, if you look at my comments you’d easily find some of my interactions. As a matter of fact, I write stuff based on my own experience only, believe it or not. I’m not afraid to describe bad rejections because not everything is just a walk in garden of roses

I wrote it couple of times before, I’ve been around this stuff since some 2008, at that time I studied/learned pretty hard intensively different material, including Ross Jeffries, Doctor Love, Brodsky, DavidX, 60 years of challenge, no-ma’am blog (Solomon, book of pook, others I forgot already), and who knows who else.... You know that compassion when you read and read, study and study, and than you want to read and study more? Good, also use it in eg education. Anyway, I still read ROK here and there and others, such as Charles Sledge - great stuff but to be honest, after a while it gets boring because everything is the same, over and over in different words.... C Heartiste is/was another great contributor, especially in the past. I don’t know what happen to him, recently he just writes some garbage out of another planet, but the past stuff is gold... The guy has amazing insight... I guess he got also bored with this stuff so his mind went some weird way ...

So if you think you are some special kind or are way different from PUA think twice. PUA and seduction have lots of stuff in common, there are many overlapping things, I’m not even anymore sure if there is a major difference in between these, it only boils down to what the particular guy desires and where he comes from...

All this stuff have been around for long time, including Lover/Provider, Abundance mentality, dominance, leading, cool attitude, push and pull, Red Pill, bitterness, nice guys vs assholes, don’t chase, pump and dump, and so forth. Again, don’t believe me, research it yourself, you’ll find articles that describe the same things that go back to 2000, if not sooner. Those original online contributors must have been in the field for several years to gain experience they are describing, so we are probably talking about year at least 1995, if not sooner - perhaps before many guys here were even born.... Or checkout out R. Jeffries Speed Seduction, I haven’t seen it for a while but lots of material is great even today...

So no Hector, you are not impressing we with your girly stuff, I’ve seen that many times before. I respect that you exercise, it is a great thing, but I am not impressed with your masculine appearance either.

———-
“A lover gives her the best experience he can while he's with her. Good conversation, good vibes, and hard cock”
>>>> But again, this is so primitive, even boring and immature. Life is HUGE, vast, there are so many things in life to do than just being a lover. For example, the girl might want lover - 100% true. But she also wants children, family, life. Friends. Travel. Financial support. Some guy who she can say is her BF for months, and show him proudly to other girls. Maybe education. Experience with different guys. Maybe she wants career too. Are you telling me that you can provide all of this as a ‘lover’ with hard dick, as you say? A guy who is moving around and sleeps with different girls all the time?

Do you even remember the names of all girls you slept with - do you remember details of their life, have you met their family members, have you got to know their friends? Did you play cards with her family all weekend, did you take them for lunch - to your house? Did you have face to face discussion with her mom or dad to see what they think of her relationship with you? Are you friends with her siblings, and their partners?

Or, do they have your children, and if so, do you provide enough money for all of them? What do you have then, 5 families and travel in between them as you wish, while those desperate women and children can’t wait to see their amazing daddy again? Can you actually be a good provider for your (potential) family at first place?

RIDICULOUS. I don’t know you at all Hector, and I could be wrong, but I bet that to many people you just appear like a pretty beach boy with nice hair and pretty eyes who has time to read philosophy or poetry books because he doesn’t have to worry for whatever reason to make monthly payments. Sipping coo-lade and talking big things about life....

If you have a good business, great, good for you. If not: Did you ever have a real job? Do you even pay your own bills, or still living with your parents? To tell you about me: I moved to different country with 0 in my pocket and 0 language, I did many jobs that sucked for low wages, and I built myself up. I worked very hard, and today I make more than most can dream about

Dude, this is life. Maybe you are lucky that you were able to open some business that allows you to travel wherever you want, and live how you want without worrying about money. Many (most) guys can’t do that no matter what. They have to go to work, they have to count their money, they have to pay rent and other bills every month. They have to work hard to support themselves and their potential family, children. Maybe sick parents. They pay high taxes and they pay high medical insurance which they can’t effort many times, they have to take care it their sick family members or children. They protect others, maybe they are in law enforcement or lawyers. Maybe they live in a hood and can’t get out because that is all they know, that’s where their whole family is. Maybe they work in social services, taking care of homeless people, or maybe they work in healthcare, or education system. Maybe they were raised in conservative family where being faithful and having traditional family matters a lot. Maybe they have to protect themselves and their families because they were robbed, or their homes were destroyed by hurricane. Maybe they are addicted to drugs or games, and they can’t just stop. Maybe the cute girl is already a single mom with 1, or 2-3 kids, who has to work for minimal salary job she doesn’t like, but take care of her kids after she’s done because cool daddy with hard dick disappeared, and No decent man want her now. Tell me more stories how much she really wants another ‘lover’ with hard dick bro...

Should we continue with morals? What moral framework you are you even talking about? Descriptive or applied ethics? Meta and normative ethics? What??? Which school even teaches that and mainly - why??? This is not some hypothetical philosophical discussion to talk about at round table and present winning sophisticated arguments online. This is real LIFE of majority of people out there, and if you can’t understand that - you still can’t understand how most people really see PUA, Seducers, Fuck Boys, or whatever you want to call it...

And that’s what I keep sayin - most of it is BS, your ‘sophistication’ and pretty girly words is just bullshit. It might work on teenage guys or guys in early 20’s but not really for adults... it’s an illusion...

So Hector, what can you really teach me? I’d like to say that I’m pretty open minded, open to different ideas and suggestions, but there is honestly not much what I haven’t really heard before about seduction or PUA, or fuck boys. There are no wow ‘discoveries’, I had plenty of those in the past....



———-

Again, don’t get the impression that I’m trying to criticize you. Good for you, great for guys that have access to this material. But see for a minute if you can put things in larger perspective though, sometimes when you look at things from the other side it might give you another picture ...


Lover with hard dick, LOL, I got to start using that one...

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

You don’t have masculine appearance at all, you have girly appearance, eg rounded face. It’s hard to believe that you lift weights, lifters usually have masculine face, but whatever, I could be wrong, it might be the illumination. Nevertheless, you behave like a girl on the video, which is ridiculous (that’s what I meant). You don’t have to do that to get girls at all. I’m not saying it is not working - it might, but so do many other things...

Again, you didn't watch the video. One of the primary topics of the video was "lure her in with femininity then escalate in a masculine, aggressive manner." Masculinity is more than a short hair cut, a beard, and muscles. Masculinity is, at its heart, aggression. If a feminine looking dude pummels some ripped bald guy with a strong jaw line, he's more manly. End of story.

If I fuck that girl you were mackin' on, I'm more manly. End of story.

You got a daughter who's of age? We'll talk who's manly when she's calling me papi.

Whether or not something works is the only debate we're having here. What you think people should be doing or what they shouldn't be doing is irrelevant.

If something works, it works. Everything after that is vanity.

+1 me.

Ok, just saw the Instagram. You lift some weights, good. Keep lifting, do deadlift, say 400 pounds, do some heavier squats, and then send another pic.

Your insult was "you don't even lift, bro." That's all I had to show up. Nice attempt at condescension follow up, but again, +1 me. Also, no pics from you. At this point, you're keyboard jockeying. You could be a basement bum with bitch tits for all I know. Step up or shut up.

Points 1 and 2 I don’t even understand what you talking about. What moral framework? Again, the same questions - morals based on who and what? Who can judge? Is religion involved? Who in your opinion is more moral of these two:

* Guy A, boring provider, who takes care of his wife and children, who is faithful and goes to church on Sundays, just because all his family goes?
* Guy B, Seducer or PUA who moves from girl to girl but never provides, but who gives her hard dick? Who goes to the beach on Sundays because that’s where all his bodies are having party every week?

You're the one being moral. You were the one who started the ENTIRE moral argument. This is the mega-nuke of all moral arguments found in you original argument

You are who you are, you can't change it, nor should you. Don't try to be this great guy or that cool guy. Be yourself. Get in tune with yourself, accept who you are, learn to like who you are - learn to be comfortable with who you are... It will help you tremendously, not only in seduction but in Life.

As I pointed out in the previous point that you seemed to not be able to grasp, any time you tell someone you SHOULD do this in regards to lifestyle, it's a moral argument. Morality is and never has been all about "this is evil" or "this is good." Which is fine. Everyone is moralizing, except you made the mistake of moralizing in an anti-PUA manner. I'm here to tell you that your moral axioms are wrong. As Chase pointed out, humans learn via the experienced teaching the uninitiated.

And this is not to mention, yet again, the entire "PUA picks up girl at the mall" example. The moral implication there that would be obvious to anyone but a complete autist is that it's bad to be a cad.

Pickup, at its heart, is amoral. "If you want this, do this."

Lay report can be made up, there is no point, anybody can write what he wants, there is no way to verify it. If you told me that you slept with 2 girls or 500, honestly I could care less about either number. I would be surprised if I even clicked on that tab 3x since I discovered GC. So there you go.

Evasion. Fake lay reports are easy to spot. But even more credible, you can verify it by having someone see you do work and vouch for you. I've had clients see me in action as well as most of the GC staff. Also, this entire discussion is about whether I know game and can teach it better than you.

And not only are you about to lose the theoretical argument, you have absolutely no verified authority on the subject.

I wrote it couple of times before, I’ve been around this stuff since some 2008

I don't care if you're an immortal vampire who's been seducing women since the Dark Ages. You're appealing to authority here, but then not backing it up with any verification whatsoever.

On one hand, you're trying to assert authority. You've been doing this shit since fucking 'Nam and all that. Then, on the other hand, you keep trying to attack my authority, and I keep presenting evidence. Pics for lifting. Clients for results. GC writers who can vouch for my game.

So which is it, respect unverified authority or you need proof?

You can't have both, bubba.

But you've presented nothing here. I'm not going to rustle through your posts for some random anecdote. Thus, you have not shit.

So if you think you are some special kind or are way different from PUA think twice

Are you daft? Where did I argue this?

I never said I have learned or asserted anything I teach is revolutionary. That has never been my argument. Straw man. There is nothing new under the sun. But what i'm damn good at it is teaching this shit. I make mistakes here and there, but I have dozens upon dozens of clients who have direct results because of my teaching. Where are the fruits of your labor?

This is an argument of "This is so easy, OMG just get jacked, get friends, don't chase, get hoes!" (YOU) and "Get your fundamentals down, but you also need to learn game, which is complex as fuck" (ME).

So no Hector, you are not impressing we with your girly stuff, I’ve seen that many times before. I respect that you exercise, it is a great thing, but I am not impressed with your masculine appearance either.

I don't give a fuck if I impress you. The only reason I would ever need to get your submission is if you were in my way and I needed to show bittie boo at the bar how grandpa can't get his dick hard anymore by making him look like a senile old fool. And seeing as you can't seem to stay on topic, the senility part has already been done for me.

RIDICULOUS. I don’t know you at all Hector, and I could be wrong, but I bet that to many people you just appear like a pretty beach boy with nice hair and pretty eyes who has time to read philosophy or poetry books because he doesn’t have to worry for whatever reason to make monthly payments. Sipping coo-lade and talking big things about life....

If you have a good business, great, good for you. If not: Did you ever have a real job? Do you even pay your own bills, or still living with your parents? To tell you about me: I moved to different country with 0 in my pocket and 0 language, I did many jobs that sucked for low wages, and I built myself up. I worked very hard, and today I make more than most can dream about

What the fuck is this shit? What does ANY of this have to do with the discussion at hand? Take your baby-boomer bullshit somewhere else.

If you wanted to pull the old man card, you should have ignored me completely and dismissed me. That's what a stoic, manly man would have done. But instead, you got in the ring with me and you keep trying to convince me to stop arguing. Doesn't work. At 25 years old I know all your tricks and then some.

Now here comes the knockout. Ready?

___________________________________________________

You say seduction is easy and it can be done with as simple a thing as improving your fundamentals. I assert it's more complicated than that. For people looking for the easy road, your method sounds more attractive.

However, does it WORK?

The proof is in the pussy.

Firstly, fundamentals are important. Fundamentals are HUGE. I'm releasing an article and some videos on how fundamentals are the VEHICLE for game.

However, if not properly explained, this is what we call Grand Strategy. It's motivational. It sounds good. But it will not solve the problem of not getting laid. You're not helping anyone in the beginner-intermediate range. If you're as knowledgable as you say you are, you're looking back at all your years of studying and saying, "Agh, that was all for naught! All you gotta do is not chase, get a life, and dress well!"

You're wrong in that you're oversimplifying the massive process you've taken. Yeah, I can pull of insane combos in Street Fighter with ease so long as I'm calm, but it took me HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF HOURS TO PERFECT THAT SHIT.

But beyond your reductionist argument, you're wrong about fundamentals.

Fundamentals get attraction and make your game slick. But, there must still be words spoken and action must still be taken to lead a girl to bed. Masculinity is about aggressive action.

Fundamentals get you in the door, but if you can't talk a girl into coming home with you, it don't mean shit.

Attraction =/= Results.

So let's say you approach a stunner at the club. She's hanging out with the VIP hosts who work there. She's smoking hot You're in shape, dress well, have friends, have a career, have abundance mentality, all that good shit, ya?

Well, so does everyone else around you. Plus, they have social status. Also, their game is sick, because their entire LIFE revolves around their social skills. It's how they eat AND how they fuck.

But you're attractive, so she politely responds. Warm smile. You talk for a minute. You've got abundance mentality, fundamentals, ALL THAT GOOD SHIT. She's into you. Pimpin' right?

One of the VIP hosts comes up and grabs her and pulls her away.

"Well, that's just because he's in her social circle!" you say.

Yeah. That's. The. Point. He applied his social skills (i.e., his game) to a social circle, got some social proof and preselection with her, and now he's leading her out of the club.

So much for all of your inspirational grand strategies. She was attracted, sure, but your game was weak. You didn't get her hooked enough to overcome a strong social circle lover candidate. In conversation you were nice and attractive, but nothing you said was above average. You were "yourself" as you like to prattle on about.

Well, being yourself doesn't cut it at this league. For the average chick, sure, your advice works, but for hot girls who have droves of guys with their shit together, you're just another guy.

What sets you apart?

Your game.

And that's what we spend most of our time here teaching at Girls Chase. Game sets you apart. Sure, the fundamentals give your game *FLAVOR*, but you need that game. You need to know when to escalate, how to avoid verbal traps, when to compliment, when to pull, when to ignore something, when to give a serious answer, when to be playful, when to deep dive, when to come up for air with small talk, when to be aloof, when to be attentive, etc.

This is all game.

And none of that was highlighted in your original post. Only maxims and grand strategies with no specificity whatsoever.

If stunners were simple to get, everyone would be doing it.

But that aint' the truth, now is it, Drck?

Nighty night, bubz.

GG. No re.

Hector

 

[Drck]

Again, you didn't watch the video. One of the primary topics of the video was "lure her in with femininity then escalate in a masculine, aggressive manner.".... . End of story.

>>>> Again, I’m telling you, nothing new. Physical escalation is known for long time, personally I know about it in more details since (if I remember) I read 60 years of challenge.

“Lure her with femininity” LOL

---------

"If I fuck that girl you were mackin' on, I'm more manly. End of story"

>>>> You are just blind, you didn’t read a word what I wrote. To fuck a girl is not that difficult. It is not difficult at all, it doesn't require any science, it is rather totally natural process. There are over 7 billions of humans on this planet currently, that is a proof itself

To fuck the girl and leave her, then move onto another one is pretty easy - MANY guys do that, especially these days. See for example number of single moms (Over 40% in USA, raising). This may not be the latest numbers but check this out:

* 4 out of 10 children are born to unwanted mothers
* More than 17 millions children are being raised without father
* There are about 12 millions of single parent families, more than 80% are single moms

Again, that is a proof itself. Or see number of partners girls really have. You are only obsessed with fucking the girls nothing else. I'm simply saying there is life beyond that point...

But think about what you wrote because the same applies the other way too: If I (or other guy) fucks your girl, I (he) am more manly than you, according to your definition. That is just a silly logic. As a matter of fact, if you sleep with other girls, chances are that those girls sleep around as well, whether you know about it or not. That happens even more - especially if you are not around. Or, are you going to claim that all these girls you sleep with are all faithful to you - while you sleep around with other girls? If that is that case, you are even more blinded than you seem...

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Pictures and weight lifting:

Why in the heck I would want to send you my pics or post them online? Are you insane? I don’t know you bro nor anyone else here. I wouldn't send my pics to you even if I did.

I could care less whether you lift weight or not, or whatever else you do, so no reason to take it as insult. I do however recommend lifting weight (and martial art) for every guy because it is great. See my previous posts.

You do have some muscles ok, but honestly nothing impressive. If you go to any fitness you’ll see many muscular guys, some would even laugh at your arms if you mentioned that you lift weights. I’m not gonna do that, I say - good for you, lift even more...

... I do pull ups only for maintenance, 10-15 pretty much every day for the past 2-3 of years, my weight is between 200-210 pounds. I do some lighter dead-lifts, 200-300 pounds depending how I feel, also just for maintenance. Used to do heavier squats in series, bench press 5x5, if I remember 230 pounds or so but then my elbows started to hurt so had to stop. Did martial arts for couple years during my teens/early 20’s. Loved it. Wanna proof? I don't need to prove anything to anyone, I do if for myself only and I could care less what others think about it. Recommend the same to anyone who reads this, esp. young guys

I’m not really a “muscle guy” who lives in fitness but I'm fairly strong considering the above is just maintenance (minimal effort). There are many guys who can beat that, but I’m wonder how many guys here can actually do more than 10 pull ups? Bench press 200-230 pounds couple times? Dead-lift 250-300 pounds in a row, couple of times? 10-12 squats with 250 on your back? How about 20? Those are not that unusual numbers, I know I wouldn't really impress true fitness rats myself, they will beat it with ease in no time...

So again, if you think I’m impressed with your pics, I’m really not. I know personally a guy who was a beast, he started to exercise at the age of 12-13 (like me) but was way better, eg he was able to do 6 pull ups with ONE hand, and he bench pressed over 300 pounds - that was still during our teens. Do THAT, because that is impressing ...

... Just for comparison, when I used to exercise more seriously, I used to do total of 120 pull ups in series in between lifting weights, 1-2x per week. I was around 220 pounds at that time... DO that for 4-6 months and then show us your biceps again. I promise, I will stop calling you girly guy then...

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"You got a daughter who's of age? We'll talk who's manly when she's calling me papi"

>>>> I don't. How about you, do you got daughter of age? If I screw her and impregnate her - will I be what you call manly if she calls me daddy?

Do you actually understand there are MANY guys who she (your potential daughter) could call papi? Do you understand that she could sleep with MANY other guys, that she might get pregnant with some random PUA who learned this stuff directly - from you, here on GC, or on some seminar that You presented yourself...?

Say that it (hypothetically) happens, and your daughter is now pregnant. The great seducer who studied Your stuff slept with her and now he left her for another girls - and now she is looking in your eyes for answers, maybe doesn't know what to do with herself and that child, as she is apparently in Love with that dude, who mysteriously disappeared, who is nowhere to be found... What would You tell her...??? Find another great lover with hard dick...???

Dude, that's not even funny. Hector, are you even using your brain, and if so - do you care at all... I can't help it, but this sentence that you wrote is plainly stupid...

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“And this is not to mention, yet again, the entire "PUA picks up girl at the mall" example. The moral implication there that would be obvious to anyone but a complete autist is that it's bad to be a cad”
>>>>> What is it with you and that "PUA" thing? What you wrote doesn’t make much sense to me.

Let's get some things straight. Let me ask you: Where do You “pick up” girls Hector? Or are you saying that you don’t “pick up girls” at different places - they just randomly see you and run towards your door?

Think about the definition of PUA, what does it mean to be pick up artist for a second. PUA a guy who goes out, to different places and intentionally ‘picks up’ girls either during the day or night, with the intention to sleep with them. This guy usually have some ‘game’, some style or system that he repeats on different girls, and then he moves onto another girl... What else is PUA?

You Hector, you go out, you pick up girls, you have some game, you have sex with them, and you move on to another girls... You are nothing else than PUA...

Think what you want, call it what you want. You might have better game than the first PUA's 10-15 years ago, but that doesn’t really make you much different, or better for that matter of fact...

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"You were the one who started the ENTIRE moral argument"

>>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't really start any moral argument. Morals differ from culture to culture, from religion to religion, from state to state, from race to race, perhaps even from family to family...

I'm not trying to moralize, if that was the impression; I'm simply seeing and presenting things from different points of view - for example, let's try to understand point of view of the dad who's 18 year cute, silly and sexy daughter is now pregnant, with some mysterious stranger. This guy shows up in your city only every six months, he fucks the brains out of your daughter with his hard dick, he also fucks couple of other girls - and then he disappears, while she waits for him with broken heart... He doesn't really have any job, he is not interested to support your daughter in any way... Does it make sense? What would you do if YOU were the father...? Would he still be a cool dude in your eyes? That's what I'm saying...

Or, say you become more mature after all these years of chasing girls, and you finally decide to settle down, have some family, raise couple good children... You want to raise them the best way you can. So you pick up the best girl out of the best you know. You trust her, and you marry her, you manage the relationship the best way you can, you have two or three cute kids... 7-10 years go by, you get little bit tired of marriage here and there, because marriage is not only fun but also lots of work... so you let your guards off, just a little, only couple of days, maybe two months... And then some PUA comes and fucks your wife behind your back, gives her really hard dick as you say, maybe impregnates her by pure coincidence. She is now pregnant, 3rd child on the way, but not yours... She, of course, is against any abortion because she is good and classy girl, with great morals, and pro-life. The mysterius PUA leaves only a piece of paper behind: Nothing personal bro, just wanted to confirm that your wife is indeed hot. P.S. all I needed was little love. Drck

 

[lostnumber]

Drck,

You're clearly not a dumb guy and I think you've raised some interesting points and articulated them well. But I think the main thrust of your argument, that PUA are terrible people who don't contribute anything to society, is completely misguided.

It sort of sounds to me like you or a family member had a bad experience with a PUA stealing their girl, or knocking someone up. PUA, or seducers, or whatever you want to call them are just people who happen to be very good at attracting women. Like any other group of people, some of them are great and some of them are total assholes. Chase I think has done a great job of creating a community for the force of good here, and I'm proud to be a part of it. For the record, I've bought products here and found most of them very beneficial.

I don't understand why you are trying to start beef with Hector. He's put himself out there and proved himself. He's using his real name, posting picture, posting videos, has a proven track record of success. Who are you? If you don't feel like proving your value to anyone fine, but then stop trying to trash others. It takes balls to put yourself out on the internet the way Hector has, and when you start trying to put him down and aren't willing to back up anything you are saying with your own credentials it makes you look petty and weak.

You realize Hector works for this site, right? You are literally coming into a mans home and insulting him to his face without anything to back it up. I'm surprised that Chase and Hector are engaging you and letting this continue. They are more tolerant than I would be in their shoes.

I do think you have interesting opinions to add, even if we disagree on a lot of things, but I would heavily encourage you to re-think the way you are approaching this thread.

 

[Drck]

OK, agreed, Chase, Hector, Richard and others here do and did great job. It does takes guts to put personal info online, including name and pics, I wouldn't do it for other reasons

If that explains it, I wrote the original post after I had bottle of wine. I can take some things back, such as paying/purchasing things, there is nothing wrong with that, there was a time I wanted to purchase things myself from this or other sites. I've never been to any live seminar, it might be cool though.

I can't take other things back because that is what I believe. There is more to seduction than just being cool guy who gets pretty girls everywhere he goes. Seriously, just imagine for a minute that that girl might be your wife, your GF or your daughter. It just puts things into little bit different perspective

 

[lostnumber]

OK, agreed, Chase, Hector, Richard and others here do and did great job. It does takes guts to put personal info online, including name and pics, I wouldn't do it for other reasons

If that explains it, I wrote the original post after I had bottle of wine. I can take some things back, such as paying/purchasing things, there is nothing wrong with that, there was a time I wanted to purchase things myself from this or other sites. I've never been to any live seminar, it might be cool though.

I can't take other things back because that is what I believe. There is more to seduction than just being cool guy who gets pretty girls everywhere he goes. Seriously, just imagine for a minute that that girl might be your wife, your GF or your daughter. It just puts things into little bit different perspective

Hey man, we've all made mistakes after a bottle of wine

Its a wise person who is willing to take a step back when he realizes he's gone too far. I do think you make your points well and I'm glad to have you around because you clearly have a different perspective than a lot of us.

I also agree with you that there is way more to seduction than lots of meaningless sex. Frankly, I don't consider myself a "PUA" at all; I'm just a guy who wanted to get better with girls. The skills I've learned here have gotten me multiple long-term monogamous relationships, as well as plenty of casual non-monogamous ones. I hope someday they will get me a wife

 

[Rain]

...require mountains more work to get to the same level as the guy who gets a good product or coach that matches his style and desired outcome.

What products and coaching (again, if they're matched to your style - get the wrong product or the wrong coaching, that doesn't match you as well, and it won't be so helpful) give you is more TIME. Time to do whatever you want.

When you say style in this context, do you mean one of the 9 identities, like this article here, or is style something different to that?

 

[Chase]

Rain-

When you say style in this context, do you mean one of the 9 identities, like this article here, or is style something different to that?

Well... easiest example is formulaic vs. mindsets.

Maybe think Mystery Method vs. Zan. Or if you don't know those guys, if you want GC guys, maybe think Alek vs. Cody (not a perfect analogy, but best I can think of of prominent GC authors).

If you like it all spelled out for you with solid techniques and processes and formulas you can use, you'll love Mystery Method (or Alek in the GC example). If you don't like that stuff these may grate on you though. And if you work better with inner game / mindsets / epiphany type stuff, Zan's your guy (or Cody is). But if all you want is tech these guys may disappoint you.

Depends on the student type too. Like, I'm a generalist. I can learn from everybody. I always liked natural game better, but I still learned plenty from the routine guys. For me it's more about figuring out what I like about a given guy's style and incorporating it. Guys who are more "system-focused" and want to adopt a complete system or methodology usually need to be more sensitive about what product or coach they pick, and make sure the system they're signing up for meshes well enough with them. Usually you can tell with a little exposure to a guy's stuff if his style (of game, of personality, how he teachers, etc.) is going to match well with you or not.

Chase