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American Imperial Decline vs. Roman Imperial Decline

topcat

Tribal Elder
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Lads please, I did a google search on that and the very first thing that came up about it was this interview with Tucker Carlson, the guy who's own lawyers argued "surely no reasonable person would believe anything this man would say" in order to try get him off the conspiracy theories he was spreading. I'm not exactly motivated to give that one any more thought!!!


Before we start throwing hour long youtube videos our direction, tell me does that video even address the assertion made by Chase... that Russia goaded Russia into attacking Ukraine... that Putin was manipulated into attacking Ukraine by Biden??!! That's the actual assertion that you seem to be backing up. Where's the evidence on that? It's not like there's no professors out there pointing out how the Ukraine invasion was illegal.

I would suggest that you and tomcat whether you two actually agree on everything. For example 9/11 conspiracies, global warming, whether the Titanic was sunk deliberately, vaccines, etc. You might not agree on everything!

Maybe also ask yourself if you also believed the lies Alex Jones was spreading 5 years back.
the videos i sent you are from mainstream and original sources. “from the horses mouth”.
But the problem is that if ppl who believe u are questioned on why they believe it, all they're left with to say is "somebody on the internet said it". So no point in saying it unless you're willing to go a step further with it.

You're indirectly implying the usual "don't believe the mainstream media" trope.
It was directly in response to your comment here.
 

Conquistador

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Oh please you're not peddling conspiracy theories too!? The only true claim there (which I'm already aware of) is the one is the one you provided a link for. And that was in reaction to Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine.

The "US goaded Russia into attacking Ukraine"! Oh man, I'd genuinely like to know more about why people believe that. You obviously expect people here to just believe it because it's you. But the problem is that if ppl who believe u are questioned on why they believe it, all they're left with to say is "somebody on the internet said it". So no point in saying it unless you're willing to go a step further with it.

You're indirectly implying the usual "don't believe the mainstream media" trope.
Funny enough I was just last week having a chat with someone close to the chargé in Kyiv at the time, who augmented my already fairly detailed knowledge of the processes involved. The full story is complex, but suffice it to say that the US was more intimately involved in the Maidan than has been officially disclosed, although key policymakers likely did not fully understand what they were getting into in terms of Ukraine’s internal divisions and what Russia was prepared to do in response. There was major discontent in Crimea (almost entirely Russophone and heavily right-wing) and elsewhere. Russia stepped in and took measures not relatively much more radical than it had in other post-Soviet conflict zones. When the Kyiv government was about to successfully quell the Donbas uprisings, Putin sent spetsnaz and later regular line units in to save the rebels’ butts. Subsequently the conflict was frozen.

The key here is that although there is major continuity between 2014 and 2022, there were some fundamental shifts within the Kremlin and with Putin himself that are underappreciated.
 

Chase

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Before we start throwing hour long youtube videos our direction, tell me does that video even address the assertion made by Chase... that the US goaded Russia into attacking Ukraine... that Putin was manipulated into attacking Ukraine by Biden??!!

Sheesh.

Just go and marry Victoria Nuland already if you love her approach to geopolitics so much :LOL:

@Dash of Englishness probably doesn't even know who she is or how she architected the Euromaidan -- i.e., overthrow of Ukrainian democracy -- picked the puppet they installed after, and started the Ukraine-Russia war... in 2014. FYI, 14,000 soldiers and civilians were already dead before Russia invaded in 2022. The war began in 2014. Everyone knows Ukraine is a US proxy state, used for fighting Russia indirectly since a hot war between the US and Russia risks going nuclear; then the whole world burns. Dash of Englishness, are you typing this from 2022? Take a time machine to the present, bro!
 

Dash of Englishness

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Sheesh.

Just go and marry Victoria Nuland already if you love her approach to geopolitics so much :LOL:

@Dash of Englishness probably doesn't even know who she is or how she architected the Euromaidan -- i.e., overthrow of Ukrainian democracy -- picked the puppet they installed after, and started the Ukraine-Russia war... in 2014. FYI, 14,000 soldiers and civilians were already dead before Russia invaded in 2022. The war began in 2014. Everyone knows Ukraine is a US proxy state, used for fighting Russia indirectly since a hot war between the US and Russia risks going nuclear; then the whole world burns. Dash of Englishness, are you typing this from 2022? Take a time machine to the present, bro!
I hadn't heard of Victoria Nuland but I looked it up, and sorry to say, everything I come across is saying that it's a conspiracy theory peddled by Tucker Carlson, and the other guy that copied Musk's Nazi salute idea... Bannon. As far as I'm aware there's zero evidence of that claim, but in order to be that certain about it you guys (Spyce D, Skills, Chase, and tomcat) must have spent a good few months of constant research on this.


All this reminds me of something else I heard a few years back... that in the 80s the Kremlin propagated false claims that the AIDs virus was really as a result of a secret US biological weapon experiment!!!

What is you're opinion of Tucker btw? Would you agree that he's a charlatan like most people think and that you just happen to agree with a little of what he says? Or would you be in alignment with his views in general? I mean it's pretty much got to be one or the other!
 

Conquistador

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I hadn't heard of Victoria Nuland but I looked it up, and sorry to say, everything I come across is saying that it's a conspiracy theory peddled by Tucker Carlson, and the other guy that copied Musk's Nazi salute idea... Bannon. As far as I'm aware there's zero evidence of that claim, but in order to be that certain about it you guys (Spyce D, Skills, Chase, and tomcat) must have spent a good few months of constant research on this.


All this reminds me of something else I heard a few years back... that in the 80s the Kremlin propagated false claims that the AIDs virus was really as a result of a secret US biological weapon experiment!!!

What is you're opinion of Tucker btw? Would you agree that he's a charlatan like most people think and that you just happen to agree with a little of what he says? Or would you be in alignment with his views in general? I mean it's pretty much got to be one or the other!
I can’t speak for the other dudes but I personally am not a Tucker fan of course.

That doesn’t change the record on US diplomatic actions re:Ukraine. I’d be the first to admit they didn’t fully understand what they were dealing with (due to both classic American cultural tunnel vision and also frankly being a little high on the unipolar moment) but the US has had a clearly defined position on Ukraine throughout this century unless at least

And while I don’t endorse conspiracy theorists, you should be less naive about what our government officials get up to off the record. I recommend John Le Carré and Yes, Minister for a primer.
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

ulrich

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If you're going to take sides at least make a constructive argument. Making put downs doesn't help to turn people.
I think he was referring to using TOR or other confidential web surfing software to avoid being tracked while reading these kind of sites.
 

Chase

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What is you're opinion of Tucker btw? Would you agree that he's a charlatan like most people think and that you just happen to agree with a little of what he says? Or would you be in alignment with his views in general? I mean it's pretty much got to be one or the other!

Carlson doesn’t appear to have much in the way of his own ideas but he seems to get the idea of republicanism and understand a fair bit of the real problem in the West (i.e., elites vs. masses).

He engages a lot in the culture war stuff, which to me is just bread and circuses for the masses. But that is what gets the views. He also repeats a lot of tired conservative talking points and avoids some key issues. Nevertheless I’d say overall it’s a plus having him in the Western media dialogue.

It came out at one point that a lot of his material comes from his writers. The MSM dug up dirt on his key writer, got that guy fired, and after that I remember hearing it just seemed like Carlson was adrift for a while. He kept giving a bunch of half-baked takes, etc. I don’t know if that’s what you mean by ‘charlatan’, but if he’s essentially just the talking head that repeats whatever his writers tell him (which is what it looked like), then quite possibly. Pretty sure that’s how it is for most of these TV show anchors though. Basically just a whole bunch of Ron Burgundys!

That being said: everything I’ve seen from him has been short clips or text recaps of something he said. I rarely watch shows/videos. Just too time-consuming.
 

Marty

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Just go and marry Victoria Nuland already if you love her approach to geopolitics so much :LOL:
She's taken. She married into the notorious—and equally fanatical—Kagan family back in the 1980s. Our friend from foggy Albion is a few decades too late.

He missed out on a lot, actually—when measured in terms of sheer mass.
 

Dash of Englishness

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She's taken. She married into the notorious—and equally fanatical—Kagan family back in the 1980s. Our friend from foggy Albion is a few decades too late.

He missed out on a lot, actually—when measured in terms of sheer mass.
I'm from Ireland. Dash of Englishness is just a phrase I remember reading in reference to fictional character Patrick Jane.
 

Dash of Englishness

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Carlson doesn’t appear to have much in the way of his own ideas but he seems to get the idea of republicanism and understand a fair bit of the real problem in the West (i.e., elites vs. masses).

He engages a lot in the culture war stuff, which to me is just bread and circuses for the masses. But that is what gets the views. He also repeats a lot of tired conservative talking points and avoids some key issues. Nevertheless I’d say overall it’s a plus having him in the Western media dialogue.
You say he's no ideas and avoids key issues, and then you say it's a plus having him in western media. Definitely not a plus. He's yet another cog in the system to getting trump elected. Yes, a few short clips should be enough to gauge what he is... if you're a good judge of character you wouldn't trust him after listening to him for a couple of minutes.

So is he for the elites or the masses? I mean given that Trump raised taxes for the bottom 95% and cut them for the billionaires, I'd say he's for the elites. And I'm sure he knows his takes are "half baked" as u say, so that would make him a charlatan. No different from all the other republicans who did a u-turn on their views because they spotted an opportunity to advance their career... like Joe Rogan doing a u-turn on Bernie Sanders and JD vance who once called trump 'America's Hitler'. Come on man, don't try and normalise him.
 

Chase

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You asked my opinion.

Then you write a response telling me my opinion is incorrect.

Then informing me of I guess what the correct opinion should be.

I am not interested in debating the petty politics of the crumbling Anglo-American empire.

Nor of being accused with tired progressive attack words like 'normalizing', which already lost their bite half a decade ago.

Whether you want to elect a reformer like Trump hopes he is or a steward like Biden actually was, all you get is either a slight slowing down of the collapse (reformer / reformer wannabe) or the even march toward it (steward).

Don't worry; you have nothing to fear from any reforms (whether or not you consider them that; with your politics I imagine they must be "horrifying reactionary fascist terror" something or other -- whatever buzzwords the BBC is using now; I haven't followed the news for a while) Donald Trump is attempting.

Tell me, how has it fared historically for other leaders who came to power attempting to reform their crumbling civilizations?

How fared Agis IV, Cleomenes III, Gaius Marius, Pertinax, or John Cantacuzene? In the end, the elites always win; the society is maintained on its doomed trajectory; and collapse occurs more or less on schedule.

So shall it be for your beloved Empire.

I don't know if Trump will succeed in slowing the collapse of the Empire a bit.

He might.

But there is no one to succeed him, and after him will continue the march of stewards shepherding the twilight of the Empire.

You will have the stewards you long for, and the inevitable result of their stewardship, too.

Should you choose to respond, I challenge you to respond with something other than MSM buzzwords, tired accusations, and emotion-laden talking points.

Are you capable of engaging in complex geopolitical conversations without resorting to parroting the hysterical brain-slop force-fed to average-IQ-and-below masses?

My guess is "no."

But I'd be glad to be proven wrong!

Chase
 

KJ Francis

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I am not interested in debating the petty politics of the crumbling Anglo-American empire.
that70s-show-burn.gif


Soooooo should we all teach our kids Mandarin??? Genuine question.
 

Chase

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@KJ Francis,

that70s-show-burn.gif


Soooooo should we all teach our kids Mandarin??? Genuine question.

lol

Well, it's not the worst idea ever..!

But I mean, declining empires do not just vanish.

You feel the decline centuries before things really completely fall apart.

Typically there are crests and troughs as reforms get made, then get scaled back.

Also, the effect of neighbors is a large one. The Eastern Roman Empire persisted long past its expiration date due to its neighbors either fighting each other, or it being able to get others to fight on behalf of it / coasting off the wealth it'd accumulated in earlier / better times. The Ottomans would've conquered Constantinople 50 years earlier than they ultimately did except Tamerlane invaded the Ottoman Empire just as they were gearing up to storm Constantinople. They had to switch over to fighting the Mongols, who won, and Bayezid (the Ottoman sultan) ended up in an iron cage.

I think the Eastern Roman Empire is probably a good model for the US. Its influence and territory shrank slowly, not all at once. Chunks lost here, chunks lost there. Sometimes chunks would be regained. The process takes time.

People hear "collapse" and think of it like an avalanche; this sudden event.

It's really more like a man aging and getting slower and losing his abilities.

You can kind of see it coming, you may be in denial about it, you may have some brief resurgences where you regain some of your former glory, but the ultimate trajectory is that all things perish.

You can't fully predict who the rising powers will be, either (e.g., what language/culture to learn, what society to emigrate to, etc.).

Sometimes one civilization looks like it's strongly on the upswing, then it sputters out. Gives the declining one some more breathing room. Then someone else even stronger who you'd never have expected comes along and mops the floor with both of them.

The reality for the US Empire is that overall things will gradually get more expensive and quality of life will gradually decline.

But I very much doubt it's ever going to go "full Weimar Germany" or "Mugabe Zimbabwe" any time soon (or Haiti after the ouster/destruction of the French); those were very unique situations.

It'll just be a continuation of what you see today, with people grumbling about things gradually getting harder, social tensions continuing to rise, the society slowly depopulating, world influence gradually shrinking, etc.

Chase
 

Adventurer

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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You asked my opinion.

Then you write a response telling me my opinion is incorrect.

Then informing me of I guess what the correct opinion should be.

I am not interested in debating the petty politics of the crumbling Anglo-American empire.

Nor of being accused with tired progressive attack words like 'normalizing', which already lost their bite half a decade ago.

Whether you want to elect a reformer like Trump hopes he is or a steward like Biden actually was, all you get is either a slight slowing down of the collapse (reformer / reformer wannabe) or the even march toward it (steward).

Don't worry; you have nothing to fear from any reforms (whether or not you consider them that; with your politics I imagine they must be "horrifying reactionary fascist terror" something or other -- whatever buzzwords the BBC is using now; I haven't followed the news for a while) Donald Trump is attempting.

Tell me, how has it fared historically for other leaders who came to power attempting to reform their crumbling civilizations?

How fared Agis IV, Cleomenes III, Gaius Marius, Pertinax, or John Cantacuzene? In the end, the elites always win; the society is maintained on its doomed trajectory; and collapse occurs more or less on schedule.

So shall it be for your beloved Empire.

I don't know if Trump will succeed in slowing the collapse of the Empire a bit.

He might.

But there is no one to succeed him, and after him will continue the march of stewards shepherding the twilight of the Empire.

You will have the stewards you long for, and the inevitable result of their stewardship, too.

Should you choose to respond, I challenge you to respond with something other than MSM buzzwords, tired accusations, and emotion-laden talking points.

Are you capable of engaging in complex geopolitical conversations without resorting to parroting the hysterical brain-slop force-fed to average-IQ-and-below masses?

My guess is "no."

But I'd be glad to be proven wrong!

Chase
I agree with this analysis, Trump may have delayed (avoided?) world war 3, he doesn't seem to agree with the warlike rethoric of the democrats, or with really dangerous and cynical strategies such as the "bloodletting".

Harris' husband is a big shot at a massive arms manufacturer btw, make that what you will for what would have happened to the world if she won

Real question for you , @Chase , do you think it's worth it to move away from the West right now? Barring some apocalyptic event, the quality of life in Western Europe still seems to be much higher than in other continents, despite the downward trajectory of the West.

Or maybe move only if you're rich, to benefit from the upper class standard of living?

I'm curious to know what you think, especially since you read a lot of literature about collapsing civilizations
 

Chase

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@Adventurer,

Real question for you , @Chase , do you think it's worth it to move away from the West right now? Barring some apocalyptic event, the quality of life in Western Europe still seems to be much higher than in other continents, despite the downward trajectory of the West.

Or maybe move only if you're rich, to benefit from the upper class standard of living?

I'm curious to know what you think, especially since you read a lot of literature about collapsing civilizations

Western Europeans have it pretty good quality-of-life-wise, yeah.

It's hard to tell what the future holds there exactly. Part of Western Europe's wealth is due to its high status within the Anglo-American Empire. Europe spends very little on defense yet never has to worry about foreign invasion. We haven't had lasting peace in Western Europe like the Pax Americana basically since the peak of the Roman Imperial era, when all of Southern and Western Europe were largely free from war for a prolonged period (with the war occurring along the wilds of Germania, plus with the Picts and Caledonians in Northern Britain). This is a very unusual (and historically unsustainable) situation.

You can already see the grumblings from the Americans about not wanting to pay for European defense. Of course, not paying for European defense means Europe rearms, which means gains a lot more independence from the US. But that also means a much heavier burden comes onto Europe.

European industry has been heavily damaged, particularly over the last several years, with the energy price spikes plus tough competition from Chinese imports. Europe is really not good at creating homegrown companies anymore to replace those it's lost, either; the taxes and regulations around starting new businesses are stifling. That can obviously change, and you would think would be one of the first things to change, when Europe wants to start competing more... but then again you never know.

Right now the European elites are fighting against a popular upswell, with basically the elites wanting to remain tied to the Empire while the common folk want to be free of it. It's not clear to me what would happen to a Western Europe free from US imperial oversight. Would Germany reindustrialize? Would Spain and Greece climb out of the pits? Europe has a very high taxation rate already to maintain its social services; if you add military spending on top of that...?

I will say this:

Often, when a civilization goes into decline, the main power center remains secure from invasion for a good long while still, but its outer territories, which have generally been stripped of their militaries and turned soft and rich, become plumb targets for invasion. That is what happened to Roman Gaul, it is what happened to Byzantium's territories in Northern Africa and Anatolia, it happened in turn to the Ottomans in the 19th Century. But that assumes an external enemy willing and motivated to invade.

But not always. Sometimes it's just "territory splits off the Empire and becomes independent."

Anyway, it all matters why you want to be somewhere and what the objective is.

If it is simply "enjoy good quality of life" and you conclude "quality of life in Western Europe > quality of life elsewhere", then the savvy play would be to remain in Western Europe unless/until it looked like that was changing.

The only real challenge comes if you need to put down roots -- start a local business, start a family, some other thing where you will not be able to easily move around should you want to. Then you need to be able to forecast 20-30 years ahead at least (I would say more like 50 if having children, because you want to raise your children in a society where they can count on being prosperous into middle age).

The trouble with Western Europe for that is the cloudiness about what happens when it frees itself from the US imperial yoke.

There are a lot of ways I can see that going. Some excellent! Some not so excellent. Some potentially dreadful.

(for my part, I would put better odds on an "excellent" outcome for a post-imperial Europe than one of the less-good outcomes :) )

Chase
 

Adventurer

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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@Adventurer,



Western Europeans have it pretty good quality-of-life-wise, yeah.

It's hard to tell what the future holds there exactly. Part of Western Europe's wealth is due to its high status within the Anglo-American Empire. Europe spends very little on defense yet never has to worry about foreign invasion. We haven't had lasting peace in Western Europe like the Pax Americana basically since the peak of the Roman Imperial era, when all of Southern and Western Europe were largely free from war for a prolonged period (with the war occurring along the wilds of Germania, plus with the Picts and Caledonians in Northern Britain). This is a very unusual (and historically unsustainable) situation.

You can already see the grumblings from the Americans about not wanting to pay for European defense. Of course, not paying for European defense means Europe rearms, which means gains a lot more independence from the US. But that also means a much heavier burden comes onto Europe.

European industry has been heavily damaged, particularly over the last several years, with the energy price spikes plus tough competition from Chinese imports. Europe is really not good at creating homegrown companies anymore to replace those it's lost, either; the taxes and regulations around starting new businesses are stifling. That can obviously change, and you would think would be one of the first things to change, when Europe wants to start competing more... but then again you never know.

Right now the European elites are fighting against a popular upswell, with basically the elites wanting to remain tied to the Empire while the common folk want to be free of it. It's not clear to me what would happen to a Western Europe free from US imperial oversight. Would Germany reindustrialize? Would Spain and Greece climb out of the pits? Europe has a very high taxation rate already to maintain its social services; if you add military spending on top of that...?

I will say this:

Often, when a civilization goes into decline, the main power center remains secure from invasion for a good long while still, but its outer territories, which have generally been stripped of their militaries and turned soft and rich, become plumb targets for invasion. That is what happened to Roman Gaul, it is what happened to Byzantium's territories in Northern Africa and Anatolia, it happened in turn to the Ottomans in the 19th Century. But that assumes an external enemy willing and motivated to invade.

But not always. Sometimes it's just "territory splits off the Empire and becomes independent."

Anyway, it all matters why you want to be somewhere and what the objective is.

If it is simply "enjoy good quality of life" and you conclude "quality of life in Western Europe > quality of life elsewhere", then the savvy play would be to remain in Western Europe unless/until it looked like that was changing.

The only real challenge comes if you need to put down roots -- start a local business, start a family, some other thing where you will not be able to easily move around should you want to. Then you need to be able to forecast 20-30 years ahead at least (I would say more like 50 if having children, because you want to raise your children in a society where they can count on being prosperous into middle age).

The trouble with Western Europe for that is the cloudiness about what happens when it frees itself from the US imperial yoke.

There are a lot of ways I can see that going. Some excellent! Some not so excellent. Some potentially dreadful.

(for my part, I would put better odds on an "excellent" outcome for a post-imperial Europe than one of the less-good outcomes :) )

Chase
Thanks for the predictions :) So things are not so bad after all

I'm not too worried about the ability of Europe to rearm, we have historically been pretty good at this, for better or worse. In particular, a much poorer France in the 50s managed to build atomic weapons from scratch without the help of the US.

The problem is that since we had it so easy for so long, European countries are horribly mismanaged, with a mix of neoliberal-style economics, idealist foreign policies and decaying infrastructure. I'm not sure how this would hold up to any real crisis, we have to wake up pretty damn fast. But tbh I think we'll have no choice, especially if the US withdraws funding from NATO

The absolute best case scenario for Europe would be to make up with Russia and create some kind of trade agreement to combine the market and industry of the EU with the natural resources from Russia. Which is what Putin wanted in the 2000s before Americans messed it up, he was originally a pro-EU liberal. I'm not sure if it's still possible after the war though
 

gameboy

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The absolute best case scenario for Europe would be to make up with Russia and create some kind of trade agreement to combine the market and industry of the EU with the natural resources from Russia. Which is what Putin wanted in the 2000s before Americans messed it up, he was originally a pro-EU liberal. I'm not sure if it's still possible after the war though
I agree that would be best. However some of our European "elites" seem hell bent on preventing that outcome.
 

Chase

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The absolute best case scenario for Europe would be to make up with Russia and create some kind of trade agreement to combine the market and industry of the EU with the natural resources from Russia. Which is what Putin wanted in the 2000s before Americans messed it up, he was originally a pro-EU liberal. I'm not sure if it's still possible after the war though

Well, that was the supposed real purpose for the Ukraine-Russia war. Pull an iron curtain over Europe to keep it cut off from moving closer to Russia and attached to the US. Remember, just before Ukraine-Russia, Germany and Russia were on the verge of opening up the Nordstream II and were becoming very buddy-buddy. German industry was about to get a huge boon. Instead the opposite happened.

It doesn't seem like that's going to be something that holds for 30 years or what have you though.

My guess is whenever they end the war in Ukraine, you'll start hearing calls for "re-admitting Russia into polite society" in Europe (opposed by the US and UK, of course). It'll be framed as taming Russia, most likely: "closer ties makes conflict less likely." Meanwhile imperial media will oppose that with talk about Europe becoming "increasingly dependent" on Russia and Russian ties "undermining European sovereignty."

(anyway, that's how I'd frame the spin, were I in charge of the media for either side, the European nationalists vs imperialists!)

Chase
 
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