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Are all races created equal?

Ree

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Are all human races equal....?
When I see the number of innovations made my the Germans
(sniping,dog training,the submarine,the jet engine,the missile,)
And then I look upon the number of patents made by the japanese.
And then I look at the corrupt superstitious tribal African ...
  I really doubt that all races poses the same level of intelligence

Different animal breeds don't just have different physical characteristics they also possess different  levels of intelligence..for example....a German shepherd is the most more intelligent dog....followed closely by the poodle....and at the end of the spectrum we have dumb dogs like the  bulldogs .....this rule is true for all breeds......allow me one more example..the European wild rabbit is more intelligent than say ...a chinchilla grey rabbit...which in turn is way more intelligent than a Flemish giant rabbit.
     This is not controversial ,it is not opinion it is fact..so why would humans of different breeds pretend to themselves that all breeds of humans poses the same level of intelligence....
     If we all agree that different breeds have different physical characteristics ,why then would we not agree that they must also poses differnt mental faculties....is the brain not a psychical organ.
   The dichotomy between mental and physical is made only for the sake of laymen ...
   From a biological point of view there is only physical.
To prove my point,if I physically remove a piece of your brain,will it not have very adverse mental effects?....so are you know physically disabled or mentally disabled....?
  The brain is just an organ...a physical organ.
When we say someone is creative or hilarious or intelligent or stupid...all these are the manifestations of something very physical.
 When we say someone is horny or angry or in love....again..there are very physical quantifiable chemicals causing these emotions...
.so if we agree that breeds are physically different...is it not then ridiculous to backpedal and   suggest that  their minds are the same?
   Here in Kenya ,we know the athletic kalenjin are usually tall and slim,they posess hearts and lungs that are larger ,these physical attributes have been very well documented and it is their reason for their endurance in races.
No one doubts their athletic prowess.
  This is not controversial....why would people very readily accept that the heart of a kealenjin is more efficient than the heart of say..an Indian ...the. Have a problem admitting that the brain of a certain race may be superior to the brain of another race?
   Are hearts and brains not just  organs,..?
Would natural selection really change skin color,eye color,hair texture,body stature,penis size...but out of respect for equality..keep intelligence intact?
 That is ridiculous
This confirms to me something I always knew
In the 18th century the biggest enemy of science was religion
In the 21st century the biggest enemy of science is political correctness 
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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LOL, some could easily interpret your text as racists, it is unfortunate that we are still not being able to speak freely about things that are politically incorrect... Watch Chase crew hit panic button and block this thread before its too late...

It's quite an interesting topic that could suggest valuable answers to many of our societal problems though. I don't have any research or data to support my opinion, but I of course believe that I am right, LOL, especially when I spent some time reading about evolution

So in my humble opinion, there are many factors contributing to resulting intelligence and behavior. For simplicity let's divide these factors on internal and external:

1. Internal or personal: genetic predisposition (to intelligence), will and motivation to raise above average in current environment, aggression (levels of testosterone), but also things like body size, color and so forth. Note: I am mentioning color because I believe that people in general perceive and (pre)judge others on color as well. Even today, for example, many people believe in so called "white supremacy", many blacks still complain about slavery. The reality is that no whites today own(ed) any slaves, and no blacks today were never slaves. I am also mentioning body size because we all know that tall white guy is by default more attractive to women than short non-white guy. Sure, there could be lots of debates regarding this issue, but IMO this is correct impression

2. External: stable or unstable family (single mom? Educated parents?, level of poverty?, ...??), stable or unstable country (peace or war? Rich or poor? Socialist, capitalist, dictator? ...??). Available level of education. And obviously more, but good enough for now...

Both of these internal and external factors are important to consider when we look at a person or particular group of people, colored or not. As an example, white person who was raised by traditional and rich family and who is prompted to achieve high education since childhood have it much easier than a person born in Africa to single un-educated mom living in poverty. It's almost impossible to reach high education for such person, regardless how intelligent he or she is... The person in Africa might actually have higher IQ than the person living in USA, but because of the external environment he might not be unable to reach any education...

... when we consider what Germans attempted to do in WW2, it is basically what is called Natural Selection, one of the evolution mechanisms in nature (though there was obviously nothing natural in WW2). In essence, if we chose to pick particular characteristics in species while eliminating other, after several generations we will have population in which that characteristics is predominant - if Germans chose only white tall men with blue eyes while eliminating everyone else, it is rather obvious that after some time there would be only white tall men with blue eyes...

-----

In simpler scenario in nature, say we introduce a new predator that captures all slow and fat wolfs but never fast and skiny wolfs. So only the faster and skinnier wolfs will survive (duh), and therefore only those will pass their genes to the next generations... Say there were 50% slow and fat wolfs and 50% fast and skinny wolfs... But now there are only 50% of skinny and fast wolfs left, and only these will pass their genes on...

So next generations will be wolfs that have genetics predisposition to being fast and skiny... But at the same time it doesn't mean that faster and skinnier wolfs were "better" than fat and slower ones - why were they fat and thus slow at first place? Maybe because they were more intelligent and stronger hunters, thus had more access to food, and that is how they got fat and slow... So now we have population that survived, however they survived only because they were faster runners - they were not really good and intelligent hunters... So the word "better" doesn't really mean better as far as IQ goes... It rather means that they "fit better into the environment" they are in...

We can change this natural selection either way we want. Say we now introduce a new predator to the same population of skinny and fast wolfs... Only those who are smarter (have better genetic predisposition to be smarter, which is the internal factor (see above)) will be able to survive in this environment. Say only 20% of the wolfs who are the smartest and fastest will survive, so next generations will have genes of these 20% wolfs... Repeat couple of generations, and now we will have only fast, skinny and smart wolfs... Should we chose to domesticate them through centuries, we can call them German Shepard...

-------------

So personally I believe that we humans are all equal, however we have different genetic predisposition to e.g. height, skin color, IQ, body type and so forth. We also live in different society, different culture, different religion, and grow up among different family members... Some have stable and loving family, peaceful and nurturing environment. Others grow up in unstable environment or culture, they may be orphans and their country may have been destroyed by wars...

The World we live in is not a fair place, and many times we are just simply products of our environment...
 

CaptainHenley

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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There are so many different factors about what makes a race/nation. country / group etc. great, that I can't even possibly list them out and their connections in a post on an internet forum.


That being said, if the advantage was due to each race's DNA, history would have not been as diverse as it is.

Think that dark populations are inferior? What about the Egyptians and Mesopotamians and the Babylonians?

Then moving to white/ Mediterranean scene, what about the Greeks? Those guys literally almost started the industrial revolution 2000 before it actually happened. Their situation is not as good now though.

What about the Romans? Their power and structure of their society was unmatched in scale, yet they are just a European country now.

Germans you say? Around the time of Greeks and Romans, they were considered brutes, barbarians, stupid and unable to comprehend civilization.

Yet looked how they proved everyone wrong later on.

Scandinavians? They had a civilization that was basically primitive around 1000A.D., 2000 years after the Greeks and Romans. Look at their successful countries now.


Also, about white guys. Basically the race that is the center of civilization at a time is usually the most attractive.

Early Greek statues look like Egyptian ones in style and patterns, for the simple reason that Egypt as far more advanced at the time hen the Greeks were at their early stage.

Then, Greeks evolved and did their own thing, and their statues and physique became admired( even today).

The Romans, appreciated that and copied and integrated said style in their own culture( architecture, statues....Latin was considered the language of peasants, and aristocrats spoke greek). Roman Generals that were usually from the northern provinces and didn't have the Mediterranean appearance would heat a metal cylinder and curl their hair (reminds you of anything?)

Same way today people try to copy western hairstyles, like women relaxing and straightening their hair , even men.



I literally can go on and on and on , with many examples from the East as well.
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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Think that dark populations are inferior? What about the Egyptians and Mesopotamians and the Babylonians? ... what about the Greeks? Those guys literally almost started the industrial revolution 2000 before it actually happened. ... What about the Romans? Their power and structure of their society was unmatched in scale, yet they are just a European country now.

>>>> Interesting thought. What happened to those great civilizations, why did they collapse, disappeared, became weaker? Is the same fate awaiting our civilization?
 

BlackBolt

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LOL answering your question based on science leads to a resounding YES. Race in fact is not genetic, race is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. There is more genetic variation in sub saharan Africa than the rest of the planet combined which means just because you look like someone doesn't mean you are the same as them.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... sts-argue/
http://bigthink.com/words-of-wisdom/bil ... ng-as-race
http://bigthink.com/think-tank/bill-nye ... -construct
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/02/bill-ny ... e-species/
Also this is a cool one hour film about the social construction of race, and alot of the crackpot pseudoscience about race. If you look at the DNA of humans of different "races" then we see that alot of us are wayyyy more similar than we would imagine. The film does a good job of explaining that too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRxZJ5QQ-9Q
An example of race being a social construct, that you might have heard of if you are American, is the one drop rule that was enforced in the South. This rule pretty much said if there is even one black person in your family tree, even from generations ago, and even if you look completely "white" you would still be considered a black person by lAW.
 

Ree

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race is not a social construct..neither is tribe...i am a luo....because i am a luo i have a genetic resistance against malaria....this protection is not shared by my fellow non luo kenyans...and neither is it shared by you guyz.....it makes us feel warm and fuzzy to say we are all equal but the truth is we are not
 

Ree

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Drck said:
LOL, some could easily interpret your text as racists, it is unfortunate that we are still not being able to speak freely about things that are politically incorrect... Watch Chase crew hit panic button and block this thread before its too late...

It's quite an interesting topic that could suggest valuable answers to many of our societal problems though. I don't have any research or data to support my opinion, but I of course believe that I am right, LOL, especially when I spent some time reading about evolution

So in my humble opinion, there are many factors contributing to resulting intelligence and behavior. For simplicity let's divide these factors on internal and external:

1. Internal or personal: genetic predisposition (to intelligence), will and motivation to raise above average in current environment, aggression (levels of testosterone), but also things like body size, color and so forth. Note: I am mentioning color because I believe that people in general perceive and (pre)judge others on color as well. Even today, for example, many people believe in so called "white supremacy", many blacks still complain about slavery. The reality is that no whites today own(ed) any slaves, and no blacks today were never slaves. I am also mentioning body size because we all know that tall white guy is by default more attractive to women than short non-white guy. Sure, there could be lots of debates regarding this issue, but IMO this is correct impression

2. External: stable or unstable family (single mom? Educated parents?, level of poverty?, ...??), stable or unstable country (peace or war? Rich or poor? Socialist, capitalist, dictator? ...??). Available level of education. And obviously more, but good enough for now...

Both of these internal and external factors are important to consider when we look at a person or particular group of people, colored or not. As an example, white person who was raised by traditional and rich family and who is prompted to achieve high education since childhood have it much easier than a person born in Africa to single un-educated mom living in poverty. It's almost impossible to reach high education for such person, regardless how intelligent he or she is... The person in Africa might actually have higher IQ than the person living in USA, but because of the external environment he might not be unable to reach any education...


The World we live in is not a fair place, and many times we are just simply products of our environment...

very true....i think only point one matters because point 2 is a result of point one....
the enviroment that any race finds themselves in is a result of their genes indirectly...keeping aside thimgs like soil fertility...and climate...when people find themselves in a bad enviroment it is because their ancestors could not fight for a better one
..
 

DLegend

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what kinda races u talking about? sprint lr marathon?
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

BlackBolt

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Pretty sure you didn't look into any of the information I provided from scholarly research and leaders in the field of genetics and biology. None of what I said was touchy, feel-good stuff or politically correct, in fact it's just correct. The social construct of race has been highlighted by leaders in science.

In 2004, for example, Francis Collins, then head of the National Human Genome Research Institute and now director of the National Institutes of Health, called race a “flawed” and “weak” concept and argued that science needed to move beyond race.
The race concept should be removed from genetics research for the following reasons: Genetic methods do not support the classification of humans into discrete races, [and] racial assumptions are not good biological guideposts. Races are not genetically homogenous and lack clear-cut genetic boundaries. And because of this, using race as a proxy to make clinical predictions is about probability.

Furthermore, your example of malaria is actually pretty excellent. Scientists can explain resistance to malaria and also sickle cell not as a racial difference.

"Sickle cell is not an African-American or African disease, although it occurs in higher frequency in these populations. But this is not a racial difference; it is a matter of ancestry, geography and evolution. Sickle-cell occurs in higher frequency in populations from regions of the world where malaria is or once was common, as sickle cell is a disease that is an evolutionary adaptation to exposure to malaria.The sickle-cell trait is believed to be protective against malaria. Thus, sickle-cell disease is at its highest frequency in West Africans and people of West African descent. But this trait is not common in other regions of Africa, where malaria is not as prevalent. Therefore, it is not an "African" disease. Sickle cell also appears in other regions of the globe, in other human populations, including populations in the Mediterranean Basin, the Arabian Peninsula, and on the Indian subcontinent, where these populations also saw this adaptation to resist malaria."

What your missing is that race and ancestry are different, scientifically. "Ancestry is a process-based concept that helps us understand the admixing events that lead to one’s existence. Ancestry is also a statement about an individual's relationship to other individuals in their genealogical history. Thus, it is a very personal understanding of one's genomic heritage. Race, on the other hand, is a pattern-based concept that has led scientists and laypersons alike to draw conclusions about a hierarchical organization of humans, connecting an individual to a larger, preconceived, geographically circumscribed or socially constructed group."

One race being inferior to another is not proven in science, some have tried and failed a century ago. A very select few still try today like Nicholas Wade who wrote a troublesome inheritance which made claims about the genetic basis of social differences between races. "Wade’s book forced a large group of leading genetics to publicly refute the idea that genetics supported such ideas. Other examples include outrageous and incorrect claims about the relationship between race, genetics and intelligence." So, long story short, any race being inherently inferior to another is bullshit.
 

Drck

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BlackBolt, don't take it personally, you are obviously a smart guy who knows a lot about this, but sometimes common sense is better than hundreds of pages from some college liberal professors, researchers of scholarly articles. Many of these have certain (leftist liberal) agenda, they attempt to deny everything what is rather obvious to every average person... Thus you may be technically and politically correct, but that is not how general population perceive what is called race...

Race is something like a certain group of people with certain characteristics and behavior. For example, African Americans are black are Germans are white, each of these group have certain behavior - that is an obvious example what is meant by race, and some groups of people may not like another groups of people simply because of different color. When we compare these groups together, common sense tells us that whites (Germans) in the past were more organized and more social (and loyal to the leader) than other groups, threrefore they were able to build better (should such word make sense) society. This society supported education and science, that's why whites were able to build better infrastructure and better weapons. This group of people was also more aggressive and ambitious, not so long ago they almost took over the entire world in just couple of years... Just for contrast, compare it to third world countries - lots of crime, poor infrastructure, poor education, poor overall organization... there is just no way they could take over the world, they would be anihilated in no time...

If we can summarize then, without being blindly called racists, it was the white male who brought current order to this world. Thanks to white male we have today relatively stable western civilization (meaning easy access to education, social programs, reasonable safety and low crime, modern science and technology,...). Like it or not, you just don't see it in countries where white male is not in power...

...it would be actually quite interesting to consider how much effect on this behavior had religion, Christianity, because it appears that it was many times the underlying force underneath... so when some claim that religion is not important and that it is outdated, he may not be entirely accurate either, because religion and especially Christianity was the base of today's (western) society...

We cannot deny racism because that is what was happening on largel scale. We cannot deny slavery because that is what was happening on larger scale, one parrticular group of people enslaved another particular group of people. We cannot deny that even today some groups are still traumatized because their ancestors were enslaved...

We also know that some particular group of people are behaving differently than other particular groups of people, e.g. There is a clear difference in crime rate, poverty rate, education level or socioeconomic status when we compare one group of people to another....

You say e.g. "One race being inferior to another is not proven in science". That is not entirely true, it is skewed because some groups of people are still feeling inferior to other groups of people. It is obvious in USA where even today many people of certain race FEEL inferior to whites - though there is no real rational, logical or scientific reason... Some use expressions such as "white supremacy" - well, you can't really see others as supreme to you if you don't feel inferior, simple as that... In other words, many people still didn't get over slavery and racism even these days, which has become rather emotional issue, and not genetic or real...

We can apply this to seduction as well, I've read theories that because white males in previous centuries were the dominant and aggressive race - they concquered the world, Europeans came to America, enslaved blacks, eliminated Indians, took over Carribbeans,... Germans almost took over the whole world in 1940's,... - the whites are still being perceived as more dominant, and thus more attractive...

I don't know how much truth is in that but it makes sense, if one particular group of (say white) people comes to a will age, eliminates or enslaves all the males and takes all the women for wife's, it is more than clear that this group of people is more dominant - and as we know, dominance is the pillar of attraction in females, whether they admit it or not...


Just my 2 cents opinion...
 

BlackBolt

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No worries, I don't take the conversation personally at all, freedom of speech and expression is a beautiful thing.

Firstly, scientists, especially the ones I noted, do not have a liberal bias. Scientists can not have a political bias when it comes to their research. Because scientific hypotheses are tested by empiricism, other scientists can, and usually do, independently test important hypotheses. Since so much of modern science is technology bound, it is difficult for the general public to evaluate much of what is published. Much of science requires long, difficult study for an understanding of the field so the professional “science journalist” is often the source of information for the general public. Being "politically correct" is when you put what makes you feel all cozy inside over the actual facts. This is important when talking about science because conservatives and other political groups have a history of denying science when it doesn't fit in with their narrative, climate change is one example. Even though at least 98% of scietists agree that climate change is happening and that it is heavily influenced if not caused by human activity, many science denialists claim that there is still a debate on the issue or that scientists are split on the issue when this is not the case. Another example is the tobacco industry and the oil industry. It is well documented that decades ago corporations tried to crack down on science when it confirmed that smoking was bad for humans. The same people who argued about that decades ago are the same MINORITY of scientists probably less than 2% who argue man made climate change is not confirmed (these are the same "scientists" who are paid to do research by companies like Exxon Mobil... hmmmm ;) I said all that to say this, the way of demonizing and claiming scientists have a liberal bias is not new, it is decades old, and I urge against it.

Secondly, this goes into "common sense" vs scientific research. Centuries and centuries ago it was common sense that the sun revolved around the earth, decades ago it was common sense that smoking was OK to do and had no health risks. Science begged to differ, and many scientists were persecuted by the Church when they made this claim, many scientists were persecuted by big tobacco corporations. We all know what is true today. This is important for this discussion because in regards to race there is common sense and then their is science. Common sense says Race is an essential (i.e.,inherent) quality of a person; it’s natural and universal; it’s a genetic trait. Science says "race is a social and historical construction". Common sense would categorize race as "Physical Characteristics , Sharply Bounded,Inherited Characteristics, Behavior, Hierarchical Categories" and might claim ethnicity is " Shared Culture. Language, Religion, Passed Down Socially, Not Hierarchical". But categorizations get messy really quickly and does not work. African Americans are not always black, many are lighter or the same complexion as "white" people. Plust the definition of "white" itself varies from society to society. Germans, under Hitler, thought that Russians were inferior to them and I believe Hitler targeted more Russians than Jews. In America, Italians and the Irish once weren't considered white. They were seen as inferior, to the native whites. In America, decades ago, you could look completely white, have blonde hair and blue eyes, but if you had just one black person period in your family tree even from generations ago you were considered black.

Thirdly, you can't talk about Western Civilization without talking about the voyages of Zheng He. Zheng He had huge voyages and China was a superpower in the world while Europe was suffering from civil wars among each other, still in the Middle ages. Is this because the Whites are just violent by nature and it is inherent in their race? No, there are other factors at work. China was dominant and the rise of Western Civilization was only possible after China withdrew within itself so. You said
"Thanks to white male we have today relatively stable western civilization (meaning easy access to education, social programs, reasonable safety and low crime, modern science and technology,...). Like it or not, you just don't see it in countries where white male is not in power"
well Asia would beg to differ.

It's just fascinating. In 1914, really only China, Japan, and the Ottoman Empire had escaped becoming European colonies. A thousand years ago, no one would have ever expected that result, for at that point western Europe was hopelessly backward. It was politically weak, it was poor, and the major long-distance commerce was a slave trade led by Vikings. The political dominance of western Europe was an unexpected outcome. Yes there are alot of conventional explanations to how Western Europe has come to dominate the globe (even though China is once again on the rise to becoming a superpower and surpassing America as the hegemon in the world today but that is another conversation :) industrialization is one, for example,but on closer inspection they all fall apart. Before 1800, Europe had already taken over at least 35 percent of the world, but Britain was just beginning to industrialize. The rest of Europe at that time was really no wealthier than China, the Middle East, or South Asia. So as an explanation, industrialization doesn't work. Another explanation, described in Jared Diamond's famous book [Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies], is disease. But something like the smallpox epidemic that ravaged Mexico when the Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés overthrew the Aztec Empire just isn't the whole story of Cortés's victory or of Europe's successful colonization of other parts of the world. Disease can't explain, for example, the colonization of India, because people in southeast Asia had the same immunity to disease that the Europeans did. So that's not the answer—it's something else. Gunpowder technology might be one of the best explanations for the rise of Western Europe but this is not a race issue.

You see, it was invented in China and used in Japan and Southeast Asia. Europeans did not create gunpowder or guns but they did get very good at using it, because the purpose of use was different between the Ottoman Empire and 14th century Europeans. Once again not race, not because whites or Europeans or whatever were inherently more violent or more intelligent, it's just because the Ottoman empire and the Europeans simply had different uses of this technology. Gunpowder was really important for conquering territory; it allows a small number of people to exercise a lot of influence. The technology grew to include more than just guns: armed ships, fortifications that can resist artillery, and more, and the Europeans became the best at using these things. There is a good model to explain why Europeans got so good at using this by professor, Philip Hoffman. His idea incorporates the model of a contest or a tournament where your odds of winning are higher if you spend more resources on fighting. You can think of that as being much like a baseball team that hires better players to win more games, but in this case, instead of coaches, it's political leaders and instead of games there are wars. And the more that the political leaders spend, the better their chances of defeating other leaders and, in the long run, of dominating the other cultures. Obviously, Europeans spent more of their resources on violence, this, once again, doesn't mean whites are inherently more violent than other races. Currently, in the West, blacks are often (incorrectly) seen as inherently violent.

What is more important is not race but its this: If you think about it, you realize that advancements in gunpowder technology—which are important for conquest—arise where political leaders fight using that technology, where they spend huge sums on it, and where they're able to share the resulting advances in that technology. For example, if I am fighting you and you figure out a better way to build an armed ship, I can imitate you. For that to happen, the countries have to be small and close to one another. And all of this describes Europe. When we talk about China, it truly dominated from I believe 1100 to 1800. China ’s global predominance was based on ‘reciprocal benefits’ with its trading partners, while Britain relied on mercenary armies of occupation, savage repression and a ‘divide and conquer’ policy to foment local rivalries. In the face of native resistance, the British (as well as other Western imperial powers) did not hesitate to exterminate entire communities. China had based its economic predominance on ‘non-interference in the internal affairs of its trading partners’. In contrast, British imperialists intervened violently in Asia , reorganizing local economies to suit the needs of the empire (eliminating economic competitors including more efficient Indian cotton manufacturers) and seized control of local political, economic and administrative apparatus to establish the colonial state.

You also said
"Christianity, because it appears that it was many times the underlying force underneath... so when some claim that religion is not important and that it is outdated, he may not be entirely accurate either, because religion and especially Christianity was the base of today's (western) society"
. This is not really the case. Actually the ENLIGTHENMENT is the cause for Western Civilization as we know it today. The age of enlightnement and reason brought us philosophy, culture, arts, modern farming and agriculture techniques, the scientific method, medicine, education and increased schooling, democracy was expanded tremendously under the enlightenment, technology, etc. While religion has brought us most wars, the crusades, the inquisition, the suppression of women. There is some good in religion and some people do good in the name for it, but secularism and the enlightenment is why Western Civilization is so dope.

You say e.g.
One race being inferior to another is not proven in science". That is not entirely true, it is skewed because some groups of people are still feeling inferior to other groups of people.
Once again the feelings of people is not fact. Feelings of inferiority does not equate to scientific/genetic inferiority. See what you are talking about is actually my point, race is socially constructed in that the hegemonic class, the rulers of a society dictate what race is and this has no basis on what is actual/scientific/genetic. In America decades ago, you can look white, blonde and all, but if, in the South, your great great grandmother was black, guess what you're black now and now you have no rights. Racial categories in America are not the same as racial categories in Brazil and they are both different from racial categories in South Africa. The discussion of things such as poverty, violence, and crime are interesting and these fall under the blanket of political science, sociological and even economic fields of study and in fact there ARE CREDIBLE answers to explain this. But just saying someone is genetically inferior because they are poor, undereducated, etc. is the oldest trick in the book. You give all members of society equal/quality education, healthcare,a living wage, etc (not an equality of outcome... that's communism) then you see how a society, even those people labeled "inferior", will flourish.

Edit: That's an interesting theory when applied to seduction but I'd have to see research behind that. I, unless persuades otherwise, don't believe, tall, white men would be the most attractive person in the world, just because of history. I believe attraction depends on individuals and the fundamentals of that individual. Brad Pitt may be incredibly alluring to certain women and absolutuely unattractive to others, same with say Idris Elba or Jason Mamoa. One thing I noticed, however, is insanely attractive to women is juxtaposition. For example, Chase used the example of his Asian friend who was really buff but also really smart. This juxtaposition can be attractive in shattering stereotypes and, thus, making yourself seem more unique/mysterious/ interesing. Woman mighy ask "Why is this Asian guy who is stereotypically a socially, awkward nerd so damn cool and attractive". I used this myself when I was single to great success, "This black guy who is buff also seems to be well read and able to talk on many subjects in an intellectual manner with others". That also kind of ties in to Chase's article on 9 male identities, shattering stereoypes is attractive and makes you an interesting person. We all noticed a cool character in a movie or tv show who just seems all the more cooler when he does something effortlessly that doesn't seem like an obvious skill he'd otherwise have, like James Bond being an excellent skier. The Asian guy would be a mixture of the intellectual and the athlete, a brains and brawn juxtaposition and wildly attractive. Other examples in popular culture make for sexy and interesting characters: e.g. Iron Man/Tony Stark, the badass intellectual, Edward Cullen, the dangerous vampire (byronic) who is also sensitive, etc. (juxtapositions are all in popular culture most superheroes are juxtapositions/ alter egos).
 

Ree

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Aug 30, 2015
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Can't remember any time I disagreed with drck...and as usual I agree with him again.....it's so common sense....I don't need.no need for links .....Nigerians are black.....Germans are white...Japanese are yellow.....physical differences are due to genes....not a SoCial construct
 

Ergon

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No need for link to prove that the earth is a sphere. Is so plain looking around, it looks flat wherever you look. X groups is just pushing the sphere-earth theory for political purposes.

Well, that not a very good argument. To have a strong opinion about something you must make sure you seek ample Representative and Reliable evidence.

Not all Germans are white (whatever that means, they're not literally white). Not all Japanase are "yellow", etc..
A certain physical trait does not make someone that race. Someone can have dark skin and yet have almost all the other genes of his anglo ancestry, the same genetic predispositions, metabolism, etc. Hell, he could even have all the mannerism and similar way of thinking of an anglo american.

Moreover, that a group share a certain similar trait does not mean they are similar. A group of individuals with one shared trait can still have much more variations of genes than another.

In fact local populations around the world have an average of 85% genetic variation (Lewontin 1972; Jorde et al.) So that means that even if a group share one trait or more (or 15% of genetic similarities), they still differ in 85% of other genetic possible variable genes. Too much of a difference to be able to make a generalization about their "social tendencies".

There is not one gene that contribute to "intelligence" or "evil" or anything like that. That's not how genes work. Genes mutate randomly and then random external factors contribute to societies and groups moving a certain way. "Race" is a construct that we invented to sort all the variation among humans. "intelligence" who knows what was supposed to mean. Too many things could be regarded as "intelligence" and none are fixed (not even IQ).

Ergon
 

Ree

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Isn't intelligence a word with meaning and a definition?
Intelligence is defined as an organisms ability to solve new problems using experience from old ones
 

Ree

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All whites come from a common ancestor...as do all blacks...as do all japanese...all Japanese are therefore more closely genetically related to each other than they are to say...a chinaman....and the chinaman and the jap are more closely related to each other than they are to the Anglo Saxon.....race is genetic not a social construct...it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise
 

BlackBolt

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@Ree I'm interested where are you getting your information from? Are you going based off on how you feel things are and ignoring the evidence to the contrary of what you believe? If so that's cool, I'm just curious.
 

Chase

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Ree,

Man, you have a knack for picking the most controversial subjects and fixating on them, eh?

In the event of any journalists reading this thread at any future point in time, I hereby point out for the record that Ree is Kenyan.

Not going to weigh in on race, because I'm American and half our readership is in America and no matter what side you come down on you're going to look like either a crazy liberal loon or an evil conservative nazi to a quarter of the readership. Just isn't an issue we can talk about calmly without people getting too heated in the current cultural environment here in the West.

I do want to address this bit, because I want to avoid too much anti-science / cultural Marxism taking hold here:

Ergon said:
There is not one gene that contribute to "intelligence" or "evil" or anything like that. That's not how genes work. Genes mutate randomly and then random external factors contribute to societies and groups moving a certain way.

The established science with IQ is intelligence is ~75-80% heritable by the time you reach adulthood:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

That's true whether you're raised with your parents or not, the environment, etc.

Which is not to say established science can't be overturned. It can be and has been repeatedly throughout history. But the evidence is heavily in favor of IQ heritability at present.

For now, moral of the story: if you want smart kids, knock up smart chicks. Don't knock up dumb chicks, then hope a gated community and pricey prep school will make up the difference ;)

Chase
 

Smurf

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I've been in a really anti-existential mood lately, too grounded in reality and what needs to be done for me to achieve the goals I want currently. So my question is: why are you asking this? You're clearly not going to get an agreed upon, definitive answer. Do you want to hear other people's opinions? Do you want to argue? What's the point you're getting at?

To answer your initial question: no they aren't - but who really cares? That's my short answer, at least.

Jake.
 

Guest0291

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Chase said:
Ree,

The established science with IQ is intelligence is ~75-80% heritable by the time you reach adulthood:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

That's true whether you're raised with your parents or not, the environment, etc.

Chase


The likelihood of this being incorrect is extremely high.

The report that asserts that "fact" comes from the American Psychological Association, a group who's credibility is questionable since many of their studies cannot be replicated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicati ... Psychology and also https://osf.io/ezcuj/wiki/home/

However, I'd wager that scientific studies (studies on heart transplants, phenotypes, physics, etc.) have a higher success rate in total as proven by breakthroughs throughout history and their consistent replication onwards. An example of that would be with heart transplants: https://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps/access/FJBBKT.pdf

Also, that report you are citing from that Wikipedia article on IQ having little benefit from family upbringing was mostly written/influenced by criminologists, NOT geneticists or anybody with scientific/medical credentials. You can see their occupations by clicking their names here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9614000889

Only two psychologists were on that report. A follow up report/continuation of the theory by one of the original authors (one of the two psychologists on that study), if you read past the abstract, also mentions both studies have missing data: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... hild_Q-set


Finally, the author from the initial study and follow-up (one of the two psychologists), Curtis Dunkel, is NOT a scientist, geneticist, biologist, or a person of any real medical credentials. He studies evolutionary psychology (amongst other subjects), a field already rife with problems. If you don't believe me on the problems of such fields and prefer someone with a more established reputation in the seduction world, go to Aaron Sleazy's forum to see his unkind opinion to many fields of social sciences and psychology. Overall, some of psychology is credible, some of it is questionable, and even more if it is wrongly applied by people on the Internet thinking they know what they are talking about.
 

Guest0291

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Finally, Ree, I don't mean to sound rough, but many of your assertions are anecdotal, you have not cited sources, and your points jump all over the board. The anecdotal evidence part is a big problem, especially when facts get distorted on the Internet and anecdotal evidence is taken at face value or incorrectly cites scientific evidence to support it. For example, many PUAs cite the alpha/beta hierarchy in wolves as evidence that their methods are natural and based in evolution, citing personal experience as proof of the theory, yet the senior scientist that originally established the conclusion stated he was wrong and wrote a follow up correctly proving it. Who are you going to believe?

That's right, the guy who founded the alpha/beta hierarchy in wolves also proved it wrong: http://www.wolf.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... nglish.pdf

Yet, many don't know this and continue to accept the original paper as fact. I'd say many regard it as "common sense." These people are basing the way they live their lives on a faulty scientific conclusion. Wouldn't you say that's a problem? Now imagine how people misuse information on genetics.

Not to mention, why are you seeking answers from people unqualified to give one? If you are that curious about genetics and the science of race, why not visit a school or email esteemed professors from universities? Why not find the contact info of established researchers, preferably ones with credibility? Are you studying a science related subject at uni? All in all, any of these paths would probably prove more fruitful then asking a forum of strangers you've never met to give inconclusive answers for a subject like this. Asking strangers on a forum for life advice is different than asking them for scientific evidence.

Before you say that researchers/scientists are likely blinded by political correctness to the point they shy away from studying the genetic side of intelligence, why not find how many studies on the relationship between genetics and intelligence there are? Then your point would be more conclusive.

People are trying to research the subject just like the people in the study mentioned from Chase's wikipedia link. A big problem is that there are just so many variables to analyze. Just because we are having many scientific and technological breakthroughs does not mean that scientific research has gotten substantially easier.

If none of these points convinced you not to worry so much about "liberal/politically correct bias," perhaps you could contact school's with a known conservative slant, the definition of "conservative" depending on where you live since many countries interpret the meaning differently.

Furthermore, using "political correctness" as a point of blame for why things are failing is questionable. There are likely other factors at play, and until other factors have been accurately weeded out for why people/institutions make the choices they do, saying it's because of PC is inconclusive and doesn't help much. And that's coming from someone who also doesn't like PC.



Drck said:
BlackBolt, don't take it personally, you are obviously a smart guy who knows a lot about this, but sometimes common sense is better than hundreds of pages from some college liberal professors, researchers of scholarly articles.

Your bias is showing here. There are conservative hacks just as much as there are liberal ones in political, educational, and scientific fields. To blindly subscribe to or reject a school of thought or group of people is unwise at best and dangerous at worst.
 
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