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Are all races created equal?

Howell

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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189
Drck,

Howell: Human adaptation and survival have an entirely different basis from animals which requires a correspondingly unique genotype.
>>>> What is that mean "entirely different basis from animals"? Should we chose to accept evolution, and I assume all of us here do, we (modern humans) are descendants from animals, e.g. We and chimpanzees have the same (genetic) ancestors. Most of our genes are the same genes like animals have, except some 1-3% (don't remember the exact numbers)

It means that human adaptation is not adaptation to a given ecology, but to a definite mode of production comprised of none other than men and women themselves.

The reason why evolutionary psychology becomes popular and prevalent, is because it assumes that its premise, is a given, is simply a logical conclusion of Darwinism, which is that the essential basis of human consciousness, what we call "human behavior" in modern society, must have been selected for as a series of evolutionary adaptations. It ignores the fact that behaviors that are selected for for animals, are purely physical reflexes in relation to a set ecology, animals have habitats which they are hard-wired to conform to - the only 'human habitat', conversely, is produced by humans themselves - because humans define the conditions of their own existence. When animals select for this or that behavior, it is no different from a robot - it is purely mechanical, it is a PHYSICAL REFLEX they do not consciously control, or even are consciously aware of, they are "with" their biological needs, that is what they are - they are no different from automata. The more social an animal becomes, the more varied its behavior is allowed to become - but still, only within the context of a pre-defined ecological habitat that which their physical reflexes are selected to adapt to. Humans represent a CUTTING POINT, where we do not have instincts, or physical reflexes that determine our behavior - we possess complete and total control of our bodily movements where those bodily movements for us constitute human behavior. The domain that which we are allowed to control for this behavior, was not 'selected' for, for this assumes that the complexities of human consciousness as it is historical and social, pre-exists in the brain, when in reality, the brain merely FACILITATES the social dimension. Humans are not like ants, who are 'hard-wired' to act in a social way, humans act in a social way, because this social dimension IS ITS OWN dimension, which subsumse all others. That is why humans have fields of knowledge they call "biology" in the first place - how can one even talk or think about biology, if the contours of the same consciousness is a biological entity? But I digress. The underlying point is: Evo psych is pseudoscientific because it does not properly prove the hypothesis that it starts out with, by correctly controlling for the necessary variables. It observes real empirical phenomena, but it does not prove scientifically how this phenomena was 'selected' for, they don't even prove how it is innate empirically by locating it physiologically, and subsequently proving that this physiological structure is, and always will be responsible for X behavior. It attempts to make, in other words, ossified physiological basis's for ABSTRACTIONS. There is no 'innate' predisposition, for example, for rape, if the ways in which men rape, historically, alter and change in relation to their social totality. If rape was some innate instinct, as they say, then the expression of rape would not be able to vary as it does - otherwise, how does one isolate the phenomena of "rape" that can be abstracted from its real context, even as it relates to man's consciousness? They do this, of course, by attributing to ABSTRACTIONS IN THOUGHT, essential qualities - i.e. ideas and concepts are given an ontologically definite basis. That is why it is superstitious and pseudoscientific. The reason as to why it gained predominance, again, is because of how it relates to anti-democratic discourse, the notion of qualifying the inner essence of man's consciousness/being in a way that is external from his consciousness and being, outside of his social being. Because none other than men are qualifying in the first place, this is perfectly synonymous with the anti-democratic pathology, that men and women, or even onself is controlled by some mysterious force that is external from the contours of their own consciousness. The paradox begins when we ask: What is the evolutionary purpose, specifically, that can explain why humans are engaging in evolutionary psychology as a pseudoscience? What evolutionary psychological structure, innate process, is responsible for humans thinking about evolutionary psychology in the first place? This is clearly a paradox.


Howell: "We adapt and survive through refining our technological, social, and mental mediations"
>>>> It was genetics mutations that makes us different than animals - we are smarter, we can communicate (talk), we live in complex social structure and so on. Animals can't do that because they don't have genetic predisposition (to e.g. Higher IQ or to make complex sounds such speech). Without the underlying genetics we wouldn't be different than animals.

For example, if there were no mutations of genes responsible for physical change in larynx, we wouldn't be able to produce complex sounds that we today call speech, therefore we wouldn't be able to communicate; we wouldn't be as social, we wouldn't be as intelligent, we wouldn't be able to organize ourselves agains much stronger predators.... All this genetics mutations lead later on to development of higher intelligence, abstract thoughts and so on, as well as resulting behavior...

I am not denying that genes do in fact mutate and change. No one, actually, is saying that here. The point of controversy is that you are arguing that things like intelligence, speech, etc., are caused by genetic mutations, which is just as stupid as saying that chemical reactions are caused by atomic ones. One order facilitates the next, but chemical reactions are not reducible to atomic ones. This is very basic, Science 101 type stuff here, btw, and is in no way controversial. If you’re studying chemical phenomena, you are studying a different order of being than if you’re studying the quantic level, and you don’t explain the chemical relationships in terms of nuclear ones. I’ve addressed this in greater detail in my post specifically devoted to EP.

Howell: "Animal evolution via physical specialization results in the creation of entirely new species. Human’s nonbiological evolution, in contrast, leaves the biological character of the species intact"
>>>> This is the same. Animals cannot "specialize" physically unless there is underlying genetic change (mutation). Such genetic change usually occurs under severe environmental pressure, resp. during catastrophes which we call extinctions... During periods of times that we call mass extinctions, new species appear. New species appear due to genetic mutations... The other part of your sentence, "Human nonbiological evolution" doesn't make any sense, there is no such thing as nonbiological evolution... Any species cannot evolve unless there is change in genes... Our evolution as human species is no different, it is driven by underlying genetic change...

Genes are changing even in modern humans - we as species have been here only some 200,000 years. Although we are anatomically the same as our 200,000 old ancestors, our genes are slightly different. For example, more complex sounds (speech) developed only some 50-70,000 years ago, meaning it took some time for us as species to develop speech. We wouldn't be able to talk if there was no underlying physical structure that allows us to do that.... This new feature (better communication) can be correlated with advancement of tools (manual skills), weapons, trade, art, or abstract skills such as math. We have more complex brain structure than our ancestors, our various skills are way advanced. Again, this wouldn't be possible without underlying genes...

Howell: "Human’s superior form of evolution occurs on a social rather than an individual level"
>>>> You keep repeating the same... We humans cannot be as social as we are today without complex skills such as language or math, or understanding of things like morals (e.g. Don't kill other humans, don't steal,...),... All these wouldn't exist without underlying genetic mutations, and it is usually small group of people responsible for such mutation.... It is actually estimated (based on analysis of mitochondrial DNA) that ALL humans living today have one mother that lived some 200,000 years ago, look up Mitochondrial Eve... (according to others, human population was as small as 2,000 members some 70,000 years ago)

The essential basis of what it means to be human, is death drive, what Freud called but misinterpreted (Here is Freud's basic stupidity - falling back from his real observations, i.e. nonsense like eros and thanatos). Death drive is not what you think it is - it is not simply the desire to irrationally kill or die. Instead, what Lacan calls death drive, refers to a space between 'nature' and 'culture' which defines the essential basis of what it means to be human. This drive, refers to a 'crazy' kind of insistence beyond both life and death, in insistence on repetition, irreducible to any kind of survival utility, a total catastrophe is responsible for human existence, probably. Death drive, the sphere that is neither nature nor culture, but something in between, is best encapsulated by the screaming cries of a baby at birth. No other ape, no other mammal, or even animal in general, cries so irrationally and helplessly at birth, and why? Because other animals, no matter how social (i.e. chimps), their basis of existence is hard-wired. This 'wailing' at birth, represents the utter naked helplessness of the child, subject to further qualification by latching onto some kind of social/symbolic order that would allow it to define its own basis of existence, its own meaning. One only becomes human, by mimicking other humans, there is no dimension to being 'human', that is outside of this mimicry, outside of one's total subjugation to what Lacan calls the symbolic order, the means by which biological processes are facilitated by the social. Other animals, no matter how social, have varying degrees of physical reflex that are responsible for some of their behaviors. THERE IS NOT ONE physical reflex that is responsible for the contours of human social behavior, because one cannot assume the role of a zoologist investigating 'human behavior' and 'human instincts', YOU ARE A PART of this, even as you are pretending to play the zoologist and taxomonize them, YOU ARE ENGAGING in 'human behavior', what we call human social life. Kant said something which encapsulated this: Humans are the animal, which needs a master. No other animal, not chimps with their alpha males either, need a master to constitute themselves. Here, "master" does not mean domineering power figure, but in Lacanian terms master-signifier, i.e. humans need to be 'controlled' by the social totality they constitute, by their inter-relations toward each other, i.e. language. Zizek summarizes this quite nicely:

A naked man is the same nonsense as a shaved ape: without language (and tools and...), man is a crippled animal - it is this lack which is supplemented by symbolic institutions and tools, so that the point made obvious today, in popular culture figures like Robocop (man is simultaneously super-animal and crippled), holds from the very beginning. How do we pass from "natural" to "symbolic" environs? This passage is not direct, one cannot account for it within a continuous evolutionary narrative: something has to intervene between the two, a kind of "vanishing mediator," which is neither Nature nor Culture - this In-between is not the spark of logos magically conferred on homo sapiens, enabling him to form his supplementary virtual symbolic environs, but precisely something which, although it is also no longer nature, is not yet logos, and has to be "repressed" by logos - the Freudian name for this monstrous freedom, of course, is death drive. It is interesting to note how philosophical narratives of the "birth of man" are always compelled to presuppose a moment in human (pre)history when (what will become) man, is no longer a mere animal and simultaneously not yet a "being of language," bound by symbolic Law; a moment of thoroughly "perverted," "denaturalized", "derailed" nature which is not yet culture. In his anthropological writings, Kant emphasized that the human animal needs disciplinary pressure in order to tame an uncanny "unruliness" which seems to be inherent to human nature - a wild, unconstrained propensity to insist stubbornly on one's own will, cost what it may. It is on account of this "unruliness" that the human animal needs a Master to discipline him: discipline targets this "unruliness," not the animal nature in man.

In Hegel's Lectures on Philosophy of History, a similar role is played by the reference to "negroes": significantly, Hegel deals with "negroes" before history proper (which starts with ancient China), in the section entitled "The Natural Context or the Geographical Basis of World History": "negroes" stand there for the human spirit in its "state of nature," they are described as a kind of perverted, monstrous child, simultaneously naive and extremely corrupted, i.e. living in the pre-lapsarian state of innocence, and, precisely as such, the most cruel barbarians; part of nature and yet thoroughly denaturalized; ruthlessly manipulating nature through primitive sorcery, yet simultaneously terrified by the raging natural forces; mindlessly brave cowards... [3] This In-between is the "repressed" of the narrative form (in this case, of Hegel's "large narrative" of world-historical succession of spiritual forms): not nature as such, but the very break with nature which is (later) supplemented by the virtual universe of narratives. According to Schelling, prior to its assertion as the medium of the rational Word, the subject is the "infinite lack of being /unendliche Mangel an Sein/," the violent gesture of contraction that negates every being outside itself. This insight also forms the core of Hegel's notion of madness: when Hegel determines madness to be a withdrawal from the actual world, the closing of the soul into itself, its "contraction," the cutting-off of its links with external reality, he all too quickly conceives of this withdrawal as a "regression" to the level of the "animal soul" still embedded in its natural environs and determined by the rhythm of nature (night and day, etc.). Does this withdrawal, on the contrary, not designate the severing of the links with the Umwelt, the end of the subject's immersion into its immediate natural environs, and is it, as such, not the founding gesture of "humanization"? Was this withdrawal-into-self not accomplished by Descartes in his universal doubt and reduction to Cogito, which, as Derrida pointed out in his "Cogito and the history of madness", [4] also involves a passage through the moment of radical madness?

The problem with evolutionary psychologists, is that they assume man is in fact not a crippled animal, but that the essential basis of what it means to be what we call human, is something people "selected" for in an evolutionary way, i.e. something they already have outside the social/symbolic order. Human sexual practice, or human "behavior" (in disgusting ecological terms) in general, among other things, is now deemed to not only have an innate basis (which is baseless), but was apparently "selected". This is totally nonsensical, because the domain that is responsible for this "human behavior" is something that humans themselves are either consciously or subconsciously already immersed in, because OUTSIDE OF THE SOCIAL ORDER, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "HUMAN", but a very crippled person who would not even be able to walk on two feet. You are talking to me right now. We are talking about "humans". THIS VERY definition of the "human", what we conceive as human, is social. Otherwise, why are you talking to me about something you should not even be aware of, something that should simply, passively define the conditions of your existence? The point is quite simple: What is the PRACTICAL PURPOSE behind evolutioanry psychology? It is a scholasticism which attempts to explain phenomena in our society, in terms that give this phenomena an inevitable or primordial basis. It is almost a knee jerk reflex today - go on google, search "Why do we like scary movies" and I promise you, you will be given some pseudo-evolutionary explanation as to why scary movies are popular in our society. In doing this, they leap-frog over 200 years of Western philosophy, the highest spheres of intellectual achievement, and replace it with the most crass and juvenile narratives of human existence. So degenerate is our society, that over 200 years ago, in this very same domain of qualifying humans, thinkers were ahead of us. The assumption that we are living in the end of history, that present day capitalist relations constitute some inevitable human habitat or ecology, when these relations are not born out of some static balanced relationship with nature, but are constituted by none other than humans themselves. It is just like how Marx attacked the older political economists: THE MINUTE you introduce the historical dimension ,their scholasticism of capital falls apart. Neuroscientists accommodate for this by calling it the "Sapient Paradox", which is laughable considering only philistines think this is a paradox, i.e. who presuppose nonsensical notions of human essential existence that doesn't even fucking take into account historical change.

If we can use analogy for simplicity, let's compare brain to computer hardware and human IQ (and resulting behavior) to software. We cannot run sophisticated software from 2017 on computers built in 1985, we just can't do it, the old hardware is not powerful enough... We have to have hardware from 2017, the physical structure itself that allows us to run newest software.... The same way, we cannot have sophisticated human behavior and high IQ running on brains that are not complex enough to process this information, and complexity of the brain's physical structure is encoded in DNA... Once we have the underlying complex hardware though, we can load any sophisticated software on it (racism, communism, socialism, liberalism, ..., art, math, understanding difference between right and wrong and so on)....

The main problem with this analogy is that you designate human IQ as the software, reducing consciousness to one’s intelligence variance, so you can tautologically persist in your pseudo-scientific reductionism. If you did any amount of research on what IQ tests actually measure, you would realize this.

E.g. from a random article from The Atlantic, on IQ:

Though the tests are good measures of skills relevant to success in American society, the scores are only a good indicator of relative intellectual ability for people who have been exposed to equivalent opportunities for developing those skills - and who actually have the motivation to try hard on the test. IQ tests are good measures of innate intelligence--if all other factors are held steady. But if IQ tests are being used to compare individuals of wildly different backgrounds, then the variable of innate intelligence is not being tested in isolation. Instead, the scores will reflect some impossible-to-sort-out combination of ability and differences in opportunities and motivations. Let's take a look at why that might be the case.

Comparisons of IQ scores across ethnic groups, cultures, countries, or time periods founder on this basic problem: The cognitive skills that IQ tests assess are not used or valued to the same extent in all times and places. Indeed, the widespread usefulness of these skills is emphatically not the norm in human history. After all, IQ tests put great stress on reading ability and vocabulary, yet writing was invented only about 6,000 years ago - rather late in the day given that anatomically modern humans have been around for over 100,000 years. And as recently as two hundred years ago, only about 15 percent of people could read or write at all.

More generally, IQ tests reward the possession of abstract theoretical knowledge and a facility for formal analytical rigor. But for most people throughout history, intelligence would have taken the form of concrete practical knowledge of the resources and dangers present in the local environment. To grasp how culturally contingent our current conception of intelligence is, just imagine how well you might do on an IQ test devised by Amazonian hunter-gatherers or medieval European peasants.

The mass development of highly abstract thinking skills represents a cultural adaptation to the mind-boggling complexity of modern technological society. But the complexity of contemporary life is not evenly distributed, and neither is the demand for written language fluency or analytical dexterity. Such skills are used more intensively in the most advanced economies than they are in the rest of the world. And within advanced societies, they are put to much greater use by the managers and professionals of the socioeconomic elite than by everybody else. As a result, American kids generally will have better opportunities to develop these skills than kids in, say, Mexico or Guatemala. And in America, the children of college-educated parents will have much better opportunities than working-class kids.

Among the strongest evidence that IQ tests are testing not just innate ability, but the extent to which that innate ability has been put to work developing specific skills, is the remarkable "Flynn effect": In the United States and many other countries, raw IQ scores have been rising about three points a decade. This rise is far too rapid to have a genetic cause. The best explanation for what's going on is that increasing social complexity is expanding the use of the cognitive skills in question - and thus improving the opportunities for honing those skills. The Flynn effect is acutely embarrassing to those who leap from IQ score differences to claims of genetic differences in intelligence.

Jason Richwine is the latest exemplar of the so-called "hereditarian" interpretation of IQ - namely, that IQ scores are a reliable indicator of immutable, inborn intelligence across all groups of people, and therefore that group differences in IQ indicate group differences in native intelligence. Yes, the hereditarian view lends aid and comfort to racists and nativists. But more importantly, it's just plain wrong. Specifically, it is based on the ahistorical and ethnocentric assumption of a fixed relationship between the development of certain cognitive skills and raw mental ability. In truth, the skills associated with intelligence have changed over time--and unevenly through social space--as society evolves.

The lower IQ scores of American Hispanics cannot simply be dismissed out of hand. They are evidence of skill deficits that sharply curtail chances for achievement and success. But contrary to the counsel of despair from hereditarians like Richwine, those deficits aren't hard-wired. Progress in reducing achievement gaps will certainly not be easy, but a full review of the IQ evidence shows that it is possible. And it will be aided by policies, like immigration reform, that encourage the full integration of Hispanics into the American economic and cultural mainstream.

Need we go on?

They may not admit it consciously, they may find thousands of different explanations about social constructs, and true, we may live in very complex society - but the reality is that the underlying brain structure and emotion makes them attracted to so called Alpha Male... It is biological (genetic) attraction, it is chemicals in the brain, and not a result of social construct (as classical alpha male is physically stronger and smarter, and as a result has more dominant behavior)... We don't have to argue at all - simply become dominant, masculine and physically strong guy and judge yourself the reactions of ANY female around you. They will be very attracted to you no matter whether they consciously like it or not... it is encoded in their genes to submit to stronger, powerful male...

Masculinity is in your genes, eh? And women are genetically predisposed to submit to “stronger, powerful males”… This is ridiculous on so many levels… Can you even provide A SHRED evidence for a “masculinity” gene? A gene unique to women that causes them to be submissive to “Alpha Males”? Your apparent verification is that because many women are more attracted to men who display so-called dominant behaviors, this means it’s genetic. Do you see the problem? Besides being based on a tautology, the science also just isn’t there.
 

Howell

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
189
Some questions I would perhaps ask to anyone arguing a hardline all/mostly genes or culture perspective:

I am not arguing that genes aren’t involved. I’m simply explaining what role they have, which is a role that facilitates, and does not cause, social activity – the domain of meaning. When we talk about “behavior”, we are talking about the social order, not the biological, chemical, atomic, quantic, and so on. The biological is the substratum, the apparatus, while the content is of the socio-symbolic order.

Can you give an example of a behavior that is mostly or completely determined by your instrument of choice (whether genes or culture)? If so, can you prove to the satisfaction of most reasonable parties it is indeed your instrument of choice (genes/culture) that is responsible for this behavior?

My argument has been that the content is what matters when it comes to a scientific understanding of social activity. What makes humans distinct from animals is that, unlike animals, we change our conditions of existence all the time. This is especially evinced in major societal changes, like the Neolithic revolution, Enlightenment, and so forth – evolutionary change, for one thing, doesn’t happen in anything close to those time frames. This claim is supported by countless studies. E.g. https://phys.org/news/2011-08-fast-evol ... years.html

None of this should be controversial. The “behavior” of, say, building a submarine, or organizing economic systems has to do with distinct groups and their practical goals. The reason the Greeks didn’t utilize steam power wasn’t because a certain genetic mutation hadn’t taken place yet, it was primarily that, because of the ample abundance of slaves, there simply was no practical inclination to do so. To try and justify the emergence of different forms of societies, let alone activities like building submarines, on genetics is laughably unscientific, to say the least.

One example I've seen here for instance is rape. We know males in all human societies engage in this behavior (especially during war), and we know males in most non-human species engage in this as well. To prove rape is embedded in the genome, can you point to a rape gene (or collections of genes that lead to the emergence of rape)?

Or to prove rape is a product of culture, can you highlight specific aspects of culture in, say, Russian, Congolese, and Afghani societies (three societies with high documented incidents of rape on both in-group and out-group members in the past hundred years) responsible for this behavior, as well as specific aspects of goose, duck, penguin, orangutan, and dolphin culture that lead to rape?

I addressed this quite thoroughly in my last post to Drck. To quote:

If rape was some innate instinct, as they say, then the expression of rape would not be able to vary as it does - otherwise, how does one isolate the phenomena of "rape" that can be abstracted from its real context, even as it relates to man's consciousness? They do this, of course, by attributing to ABSTRACTIONS IN THOUGHT, essential qualities - i.e. ideas and concepts are given an ontologically definite basis. That is why it is superstitious and pseudoscientific.

Also, as I said in a different thread,

These "core traits' only exist INSOFAR as there is a degree of similarity between the historic epochs in question. That is to say, just because [rape] exists in capitalism, while also existing in ancient societies, does not mean that [rape] is innate - it means both capitalism and ancient societies reproduce different conditions of [rape] for largely different reasons. Marx, who I continue to quote - is correct, for to paraphrase, if the appearance of something and its actual essential function coincided, all science would be superfluous.

The fact that rape has been prevalent in most human society, neither makes it inevitable nor does it make it genetically based. All it says is that the conditions of life in these societies were such that rape was for some reason justified, deemed normal, etc. If we see rape rising before men go to war, does that say something about their genes, or does it say something about their society? It says something about their society – i.e., they are about to go to war, which of course has typically entailed brutal, violent acts.

That Russian, Congolese, and Afghani societies have high levels of rape says nothing about the innate character of the Russian, Congolese, and Afghani people. Obviously their specific historical development has led to conditions in which rape is deemed more normal than in other cultures, etc. I don’t even need to prove that this is not the case, just as it’s not the atheist’s job to definitively prove there is no god to the believer or the superstitious agnostic. It is for those who are asserting that there is a genetic basis to justify themselves. Simply applying Occam’s razor should be enough to settle this debate.

To reiterate from another thread again:

This is owed purely not even to simple burdensome physiological inevitabilities - by the time humans were sailing ships to unknown regions the sexual slavery of women had already long occurred. That this was "rare" says nothing about, again, SOME KIND OF ESSENTIAL, INNATE PHYSIOLOGICAL REASON FOR ITS ABSENCE. Baumeister keeps assuming that BECAUSE a phenomena was present or not present historically, it is - by merit of human existence - physiologically an inevitability.
Etc. etc.


(or if you believe rape is culturally determined in humans but genetically determined in other species, or vice versa, please outline how you know this)

I also addressed this in my post to Drck, where I explained in detail what it is that distinguishes humans from animals (i.e., death drive). Need I go into this more?

I don't know that these differences in opinion (and 'opinion' is what this is... much as either side may be inclined to think itself the bearer of truth) will ever be resolvable, no matter how complete a picture we have of either genes OR culture. We will forever argue about who or what is to blame for the things we don't like - this is just a part of human society (deciding what's good or not good, then deciding who's to blame for what's good and what isn't).

Let’s not be so hasty to externalize a dichotomy that is only antagonistic if taken as a meaningless abstraction. As I told you before, the debate between “nature vs nurture” is a false one. We aren’t saying that humans are totally determined by “nurture” (a survivalist term), or all “nature” (equally an ecological category). I have time and time again shown how this dichotomy is insufficient for addressing the complexities of human society and consciousness, yet still you insist on it, without providing any evidence for genetic reductionism (which your comment on IQ above shows you clearly take with more than just a few grains of salt) that controls for necessary variables.

I have addressed this countless times in past threads. E.g.:

what distinguishes us from mice/chimps is historically worthless and uninsightful as far as the particularities of human behavior go on at a historic, particular level.

And that is the crux of the problem here - for Evolutionary Psychologists, the historical - the spiritual - the social, all of these categories are just as passive and ontologically unapproachable as a natural environment.

How these “core traits” are expressed and signified are entirely different across different historic epochs. So no, there is NOTHING universal about these "qualities" unless we play with superstitious abstractions.

There are no "pre-social" relations that remain for humans. Lacan dealt with this precisely - the mythological notion of a pre-linguistic universe for humans assumes there is balance between humans and the world around them. But there is none, humans CHANGE their own conditions of life and survival, regularly.
 

BlackBolt

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
116
@Anatman
On The Science of Race
I read all of the sources you provided, and none of them answer the questions that I've asked. One of the articles even claimed how with the human genome mapped out, we know that race isn't genetic. But that's a false statement if we don't know how the entire human genome works

It is not false the scientific studies they provided bear that out. Francis Collins, then head of the National Human Genome Research Institute and now director of the National Institutes of Health, called race a “flawed” and “weak” concept and argued that science needed to move beyond race. Yet, as our paper highlights, the use of race persist in genetics, despite voices like Collins, like Craig Venter — leaders in the field of genomics — who have called on the field to move beyond it.
You're denying what he's saying without providing any peer reviewed scientific research to the contrary. Check his credentials, he was the HEAD OF THE NATIONAL HUMAN GENOME RESEARCH INSTITUTE that's like Tom Brady and Bill Belichick giving you a walkthrough on how they won the Superbowl and some random guy saying "Nah I know better than Brady and Bill, hold my beer".
https://www.genome.gov/10001772/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rac ... 9b57da89ed

What I'm seeing, especially in that Times article, is that no one is sure where their logic should go.

Wrong (Trump voice) lol. If you read the article again (you might've read it too fast), the only person who doesn't know where his logic should go is Nicholas Wade, author of “A Troublesome Inheritance,” the person you referenced. As I said earlier all the scientists especially the biologists and those who were leaders in Human Genome research REFUTE everything he says. "If Wade could point to genes that give races distinctive social behaviors, we might overlook such shortcomings. But he cannot." In fact, they say the differences can be largely explained by “random drift” — arbitrary changes in genes having little to no effect on people’s biology or behavior. All of this directly contradicts Wade’s argument. Yet he boldly claims the study as support.. Read the articles I posted, WATCH THE DOCUMENTARY I posted, reasearch the Scientists who I linked to (including Bill Nye and his book), they HAVE research articles on their findings, the proof IS THERE. As I keep saying RACE is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT that is what the scientists are saying. If you want to look more into it go to the scientists, I'm not giving you my intuition I'm just linking you to what the scientists are saying and proving in their research and they are leaders in their respective fields.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/book ... tance.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rac ... 9b57da89ed

I've yet to see anything hard that shows a strong correlation between the genes and behaviors
You're right, see above.

It seems like, under the assumption that the science is not clear and wild conclusions are being made, that these scientists are fitting their science into their racial-guilt. Intellectuals that lean left have a savior-complex/guilt-complex and are very quick to side with the "anti-racist" side of research if it seems remotely plausible (e.g.,...there's no hard science there showing any sort of correlation between specific genes and specific traits/behaviors).
Uhm "raical guilt" what lol. None of the scientific links I have provided support that claim at all. Their providing peer reviewed research, and their research shows that RACE IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. I think you're attributing racial guilt to them, working backwards from your beliefs and not providing peer reviewed research that refutes what they say, see that's what Nicholas Wade was doing, but he was assuming racial superiority of Whites, yet under peer reviewed scrutiny (that is essential in science) he was proven to be WRONG!
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/book ... tance.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rac ... 9b57da89ed
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
1,488
Howell: "The point of controversy is that you are arguing that things like intelligence, speech, etc., are caused by genetic mutations, which is just as stupid as saying that chemical reactions are caused by atomic ones" ....

>>>> IMO there is some misunderstanding. Do we agree that there is such thing as evolution? If so, in quick summary it goes like this:


These are just quick summaries (redily available on e.g. wiki) organized to some logical sequence that is easy to follow:

* Primates diverge from other mammals some 85 years ago
* Homininae diverged about 14 million year ago; Hominina (humans and biped ancestors) about 5-7 milions years ago
* Human evolution from its first separation from the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees is characterized by a number of morphological, developmental, physiological, and behavioral changes. The most significant of these adaptations are bipedalism, increased brain size, lengthened ontogeny (gestation and infancy), and decreased sexual dimorphism
* Anatomically, the evolution of bipedalism has been accompanied by a large number of skeletal changes, not just to the legs and pelvis, but also to the vertebral column, feet and ankles, and skull
* The human species eventually developed a much larger brain than that of other primates—typically 1,330 cm3 in modern humans, nearly three times the size of that of a chimpanzee or gorilla
* The increase in volume over time has affected areas within the brain unequally—the temporal lobes, which contain centers for language processing, have increased disproportionately, and seems to favor a belief that there was evolution after leaving Africa, as has the prefrontal cortex which has been related to complex decision-making and moderating social behavior
* Encephalization has been tied to an increasing emphasis on meat in the diet, or with the development of cooking, and it has been proposed that intelligence increased as a response to an increased necessity for solving social problems as human society became more complex. The human brain was able to expand because of the changes in the morphology of smaller mandibles and mandible muscle attachments to the skull into allowing more room for the brain to grow
* The increase in volume of the neocortex also included a rapid increase in size of the cerebellum
* Its function has also traditionally been associated with balance, fine motor control but more recently speech and cognition. The great apes including humans and its antecessors had a more pronounced development of the cerebellum relative to the neocortex than other primates. It has been suggested that because of its function of sensory-motor control and assisting in learning complex muscular action sequences, the cerebellum may have underpinned the evolution of human's technological adaptations including the preadaptation of speech

* Progress in DNA sequencing, specifically mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and then Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) advanced the understanding of human origins. Application of the molecular clock principle revolutionized the study of molecular evolution. ... On the basis of a separation from the orangutan between 10 and 20 million years ago, earlier studies of the molecular clock suggested that there were about 76 mutations per generation that were not inherited by human children from their parents; this evidence supported the divergence time between hominins and chimps noted above. However, a 2012 study in Iceland of 78 children and their parents suggests a mutation rate of only 36 mutations per generation; this datum extends the separation between humans and chimps to an earlier period greater than 7 million years ago
* The earliest documented representative of the genus Homo is Homo habilis, which evolved around 2.8 million years ago, and is arguably the earliest species for which there is positive evidence of the use of stone tools. The brains of these early hominins were about the same size as that of a chimpanzee, although it has been suggested that this was the time in which the human SRGAP2 gene doubled, producing a more rapid wiring of the frontal cortex. During the next million years a process of rapid encephalization occurred, and with the arrival of Homo erectus and Homo ergaster in the fossil record, cranial capacity had doubled to 850 cm3. (Such an increase in human brain size is equivalent to each generation having 125,000 more neurons than their parents.) It is believed that Homo erectus and Homo ergaster were the first to use fire and complex tools, and were the first of the hominin line to leave Africa, spreading throughout Africa, Asia, and Europe between 1.3 to 1.8 million years ago
* Until about 50,000–40,000 years ago, the use of stone tools seems to have progressed stepwise
* Around 50,000 BP, modern human culture started to evolve more rapidly. The transition to behavioral modernity has been characterized by some as a Eurasian "Great Leap Forward", or as the "Upper Palaeolithic Revolution", due to the sudden appearance of distinctive signs of modern behavior and big game hunting in the archaeological record


..... I can keep going through 10,000 other pages but there is no reason, it must be clear where I'm coming from... For example, for primates in order to start using tools, they have to have certain physical features, such as 4 fingers and opposing thumb, which enables to grab something (tool). If primates, for example, had hoofs, they wouldn't be able to use tools. Just for silly point of view: Do you, for instance, see any horse that is able to grab a branch or any stone and manipulate it? It can't do it, it doesn't have the physical abilities to do it like primates... Does it make sense? The accumulated genetic mutations over millions of years results in particular physical structures that are needed to work with e.g. tools (or speak)...

To continue, genetic mutation is responsible for certain anatomical structures, e.g. what we call today hand, hoof and so on. Genetic mutation is also responsible for physical structure such as larynx. Other animal species can also make some noises, but not as complex as humans. They are unable to produce complex sounds (such as speech) because they don't have particularly developed larynx that enables us to talk... They also don't have the physical brain that allows them to process speech or complex sounds...

You say that humans represent CUTTING POINT... That we possess complete and total control of our bodily movements... Well, have you ever thought about chimpanzees or other apes who lived in similar environment as humans - and are in many ways very similar to humans - why can't they talk in complex sentences? Why can't they produce detailed words? Why are they not as intelligent as humans? Why are they not in total control of bodily movements as you say? It is because they don't have the underlying physical structures (larynx for speech, certain parts of brain for intelligence,...)...

We humans can think, we have high IQ, we can talk and communicate, we can process abstract data - but it is only because we have those physical structures... Our physical brain is more complex than brain of animals... Again, it is genetic mutations at first place that are responsible for those physical changes...

--------

You say: "One only becomes human, by mimicking other humans, there is no dimension to being 'human',..."

>>>> OK, but did you think about it? Humans are able to mimic behavior of other animals, for simplicity say apes. How about the other way though - can a chimpanzee become human by mimicking humans? It's obviously a silly question but they can't - because they don't have the human brain. They can't speak human language either because their larynx cannot produce words. EVEN if they could speak some words, they may not be able to understand abstract thinking like humans, because their brain simply doesn't have the capacity... Again, all these physical structures are based in genetic code (that has mutated in the past till new species called humans appeared)...

-----------

Zizek: "A naked man is the same nonsense as a shaved ape:"
>>>> This is another incorrect conclusion. We are not apes: We are way more intelligent than apes due to genetic mutations in the past...
-----------

Howell: "The problem with evolutionary psychologists, is that they assume man is in fact not a crippled animal".
>>>> I'm not sure where you are going with this, and why is there a need to compare humans to crippled animals, but: We humans are not just crippled animals. I'm not evolutionary psychologist but I believe that most humans are highly intelligent (animals). We have complex communication, we have high IQ, we can organize against other groups of animals and so forth... This is what makes us the most dangerous predators this planet ever seen...

We humans can process lots of information in short period of time because we have underlying physical brain that allows us to do so... If you take a human who has severely damaged brain due to accident (or genetic mutation), it is obvious that he is not able to accomplish the same tasks as other humans. He may not be able to speak or understand, he may not be able to remember, he may not be able to move his hands, he may not be able to count... They physical structure (brain) that is responsible for these is simply damaged, gone...

If you sent any average IQ and healthy man to a nature today, just naked and without any tools, most will be able to adapt (or re-adapt) very fast. He will build weapons with bare hands (hatchets, spears, traps,...), he will hunt animals, he will build different shelters, he will make fire... Heck, I could do these in 1-2 days, no effort needed... If given the opportunity, man will organize other naked humans against other groups or predators very fast, thanks to communication... No other animals can do that, they have no brain structure that allows them to process those tasks, their IQ is not as high, their brain is not as developed as human's...

... so I have no other way than to use the analogy example as above. Animals simply don't have the computing power (IQ, memory, thinking,...) because they don't have the computing hardware (brain)... Animals are like simple calculators whereas humans are rather modern powerful computers - animals can do some smart things (perhaps reflexively as you say) but humans have way more RAM, higher processing speed (Ghz), and more memory (giga or terabytes). This is what gives us the IQ, the fast processing power of the physical brain, the complexity of neuronal connections we humans have... We cannot have high IQ if our brain is somehow damaged, and we have only high IQ because our brain evolved from simple mammalian brain (some 80 mil years ago) due to many genetic mutations...


----------------
.... Masculinity is in your genes, eh? And women are genetically predisposed to submit to “stronger, powerful males”… This is ridiculous on so many levels… Can you even provide A SHRED evidence for a “masculinity” gene? A gene unique to women that causes them to be submissive to “Alpha Males”?

>>>> We have to look again at human evolution, going back to couple (say 7 millions years ago, but we can go even way further)... Our ancestors lived in groups, dominated by individuals who were stronger and/or smarter. We can see the same hierarchy even today, there is always some leader of particular group...

Don't believe me, go out and see a group of guys - one of them is what can be considered leader. See some gang - they have a leader. See army - there is a leader. Go to work, there is a boss. Heck, see the whole nation, each nation have a leader, and till recently it's been always male...

The reason that leaders were usually males is that males are physically stronger than females. Males protected females against predators in open nature. Males were able to hunt, provide food, provide security, build shelters... Females were not able to do it because they are not simply (physically) build for that... Only recently, because of the complex social structure we live in, females were allowed to become leaders. We no longer have to hunt, we no longer have to protect families by primitive weapons from predators, we can just go and purchase all we need, no physical struggles... As society, we simply no longer need physically strong males, which is perhaps the first time in our human history...

I mean, what is even the argument here? Isn't that clear to anyone? The leader of the group was always physically stronger and/or smarter individual. Many times it still apply even today, the stronger and smarter simply becomes the leader... It is or was an individual who was able to lead the group by having certain characteristics, such as physical strength, higher IQ, determination, ability to organize and so forth. We can summarize this under the expression "dominance", or simply expression "Alpha Male", and yes - masculine strong male is more dominant than weak male, if that is what you are asking about...

It is simple logic: masculine male is physically stronger, he was able to beat up potential competition and thus take over the female(s) in that particular group...

Females are attracted to masculine males. I don't know what examples I can give you, you never heard about it before....? Read about Arnold then, when he was young he was fucking perhaps even couple females daily. The best seducers here could envy Arnold, they could learn from Arnold how to have sex with multiple females per day... Was it his wit, smartness, such a high IQ? Was it that he studied so much seduction on GC? Was it his poetry skills? No. It was - hold your breath - plain and simple muscles. It was masculinity, physical fitness, physical strength... Or read about other top athletes, how much sex drive do they have, read about Olympics, about the sex orgies...

What can I tell you? Physically fit, masculine male, male full of testosterone is very attractive to females... If it is shocking to you, it is perhaps just because you don't do much sport... If that's the case, put the psychology books away and go lifting weights... You shouldn't stop till you lift at least 300-400 pounds off the floor multiple times, or do 10 squats with such weight... then tell me how wrong I am with masculinity...

You are asking if masculinity is in your genes... Well, Arnold wasn't exactly 5'2" and 135 pounds... he had robust built, just see his pics. Is it in genes? Maybe the robust build is, that is what I meant, the genetic predisposition... Maybe being taller than others is in genes, there are many guys who are tall but not exactly athletic... Is there such thing that females are attracted to taller guys? I could be wrong but I believe that females prefer taller guys. Simply look it up or just look around...
 

BlackBolt

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
116
@Drck
On Climate Change

I respect your opinion, every person is my superior in something, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on climate change. I'm not saying scientists can't lean left or right in their political views but what I'm saying is if their biases affect their research then it will be refuted under peer review, that's the whole point of peer review. it separates the science from the pseudoscience (theory of evolution vs creationism for example).
James Lawrence Powell leader in the field of Geochemistry who served on the National Science Board under both Reagan and Bush has a meta-analysis (which observes the findings and results of multiple studies over a broad time) on climate change and he has found that "99.5% of scientists and experts" accept man-made global warming. To disagree with that is almost equivalent to believing in a flat earth or that the earth is only 6,000 years old.

Nov16chartcrop.png

stacks-image-d922b3e-1198x816.jpg

http://www.jamespowell.org/

Yeah cows, trees, etc. affect climate change but this is largely due to man's influence e.g. industrial farming, deforestation, etc. A lot of political figures try to deny the science behind it for their own political reasons. Breitbart releases articles denying climate change but that hilariously backfired http://www.rawstory.com/2016/12/stop-us ... ge-denial/

Climate change is mostly influenced by man and the earth has been hitting record high temperatures year after year month after month
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/one ... 9cb047312c

NASA, OSHA, etc. all confirm this

Also its funny that you think the climate change scientists are the big time rollers. There really isn't big money for the scientists who rely on grants to fund their research when you compare it to the oil companies, they buy and own politicians. What evidence do you have that the scientists are the billionaires. There's much evidence to the contrary, people like Rex Tillerson, etc buying off politicians.
https://thinkprogress.org/the-fossil-fu ... .d5816lj5d
Politicians cutting oil and coal regulations last week
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 56596.html
Exxon Mobil CEO = Secretary Of State For 'Take The Oil' Trump
http://thehill.com/homenews/administrat ... y-of-state
And big oil companies dish out more than 115 million per year (minimum probably way more) to stop climate policies that limit carbon emissions
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/oil ... 2232496d97

"In addition, Exxon Mobil is under investigation over whether it misled investors about the risks of climate change. The company, as well as API, conducted research in the early 1980s documenting the global warming effects of fossil fuel use and then spent millions lobbying against efforts to curb greenhouse gas emissions."
This science denialism is not new. LITERALLY the same (minority of) scientists that were paid off by tobacco organizations to falsey advertise the health and social benefits of smoking cigarettes are the same ones who are paid off by Exxon Mobil and other oil and fossil fuel mega corporations. Finally, guess who owns the House Science Committee http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capita ... ost-100000
 

BlackBolt

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
116
On Trump
@Slay
I don't think he would have won being genuine. Trunp is a revolutionary candidate, he was seen as an outsider, anti-establishment, speak from the cuff kind of guy. Unlike any other candidate before he was a huge celebrity. People thought of him as a massively succesful and wealthy ass hole. Therefore, his identity was already firmly established. That's why he could say anything and contradict himself all the time and not get completely shot down. If you're not really into policies than yeah you could support Trump but if you are about the actual policies to make America Great which I'm all for, then you really can't be for Trump or Hilary Clinton, their both lyers and flip floppers, Here'sa video of A LOT of Trump's contradictions and Hilary's also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6OpKSdvbho&t=27s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js5M5ac5i2g

The thing about Trump is he (and Bernie Sanders too) brought about a new type of politician, the unpolished, speak from the heart kind. The mainstream media underestimated Trump and thought he wouldn't make it pass the Republican primary but if you were really paying attention it was damn near impossible for him not to beat the other Republicans they REALLY SUCK. You have Marco "Plastic Robot" Rubio, Jeb "Pussy... Please Clap" Bush, and Ted Cruz (who is a dying breed of Republicans). The Republican base LOVES Trump and what's funny is he campaigned on a populist message. Fuck the TPP, I'm going to bring jobs back, I'm not going to take your health care, etc" while the other Republicans said pretty much the opposite. He also promoted himself as anti establishment (which was a complete con) and here's the proof.

He called Jeb Bush out for being a puppet to his donors, namely, Woody Johnson. Guess who became Trump's donor and served as a vice chair for the Trump Victory Fund.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/don ... 3b512b69e4
His cabinet is so esablishment It'll Make Your Head Spin including Betsy DeVos (billionaire inside who funded A SHIT TON of establishment Republicans) and Mnuchin from Goldman Sachs (One of the main fucking culprits who crashed the economy)
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/s ... ump-230716

In simple terms. Does being a dominant, polarizing douche in this case help you win more people over than being a genuine man who doesn't throw people under the bus?
Not so sure about that. Trump won but his unfavorables are literally record highs. And remember he lost the popular vote by around 3 million
http://www.latimes.com/politics/washing ... story.html

Especially since we aren't talking social situations here, and being a hyper-valuable man. We're talking about winning.
Nah bro, if you wanna look at winners look up Franklin D. Roosevelt he remains the only president to have served more than two terms, I think it was 4. Guess who's normally ranked as the top 3 Presidents of all time, Washington, Lincoln, and FDR! Moral don't be a polarizing douche just to be a polarizing douche, Trump whines and gets into pointless twitter wars with people all the time, that's not dominance that's insecurity. When you're polarizing make sure you doing it for something you believe is 100% right. This gives you a devil may care attitude like NO OTHER. FDR who went against the Big Corporations who caused the depression had a brilliant quote about them
"They hate me and I WELCOME THEIR HATRED" Dude had massive balls and America LOVED him for it. Similar to Chase's article on being the good king
https://www.girlschase.com/content/good-king

See, I don't think Trump is viewed as a good king, why is he so hated
He's a pretty terrible businessmen who had 6 busines bankrupticies.. not a personal bankruptcy though, Has Over $1 Billion In Debt, Mostly Held On Wall Street and guess who just wiped out wall Street regulation (he's the bitch boy of Wall St.), not a real winner he's the male Paris Hilton whose Dad was worth 400 million dollars he inherited his money not, simply, a small loan of 1 million, he lost close to a billion dollars in 1995 in the wake of financial struggles at three Atlantic City casinos/his airline business/and purchase of Manhattan’s Plaza Hotel, he had so many terrible business ideas (Trump steaks, trump the board game, trump university, gotrump.com, trump vodka, trump magazine, etc.made a mortgage company the year before there was a mortgage crisis he's a business failure and ran a fraud university), Talked about protectionist economic policies but outsourced his own jobs to Mexico and China Bangladesh and Turkey, Went back on his word and ran away like a little bitch when he said he would debate Bernie Sanders, and tried to sue Bill Maher and the Onion over a joke and a satire article... He's a bitch boy. A social genius but a bitch boy nonetheless.
Among other things.

Yes be dominant, confident, even polarizing if need be but make sure you're aiming to be the good king, have empathy for others, deep dive, elicit values, have a purpose/core set of values and don't ever compromise them. That's attractive and that's winning.
 

Bastian

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Messages
56
Unless they contain hard biological information (e.g., based on hormones, chemical reactions, specific genes, ect.), studies on social sciences are filled with bias as the writer/publisher dictates the terms and limits of the study. Every large group faces the same question "Who is X?" Who is Jewish? Are Jews only the children of Jewish mothers, can adopted children be Jewish, is Jewish only a religion? These are questions that Israel seeks to answer, and as you can guess, nobody can agree on the Jewish Question. Who is White? Who is African American?

On a basic level, almost everything is a construct. Even our reality is an illusion created by our brains in order to process and understand the world around us. Race by itself has no intrinsic meaning, it is by definition a social construct. However, it is undeniable that there are groups of people who share a loosely connected experience in culture, history, and of course, family. There are a people who have lived under Islam for hundreds of years and read Arabic just as well as there are people who live West of the Urals and above large bodies of water; the former are Muslims and the latter are Europeans, but even these are not mutually exclusive categories (e.g., Bosnians and Albanians).

The US classifies Europeans, North Africans, Middle Easterners, and Indians (and their descendants) as Caucasian, which is itself based upon an (old anthropological) agreed standard of skeletal and facial characteristics. Everyone in that group share exclusive phenotypical characteristics, which we call a "race", if everyone in this race practiced endogamy, no children could be classified as Negroid or Mongoloid. This constitutes a scientific "sub-species" but for reasons I will not go into, we neither classify ourselves as sub-species nor socially agree that Lithuanians are of the same race, the same people, as Kazakhs (despite both being Caucasian). Of course, reality is a continuum rather than concrete borders.

Photos of Algerians (have ad-blocker installed or risk a virus like crabs on a whorehouse): http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showth ... e-Capital-)
Photos of Indian family (devoid of pigment): http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03 ... y/212751/0

Without their brown color and cultural dress, Indians are not very different skeletal-wise from other Caucasians or bread-and-butter Europeans. Algerians look Southern European if any of them were to walk in America.

Now whenever all races are created equal is dependent on the definition of equal. Is an abundance of oil "equal"? Native Americans literally ate their horses to extinction, leaving the Americas without a good potential source of early transportation (leading to a nasty snowball effect down the line), meaning that warfare, raiding, and infrastructure were all limited by the speed of the foot than the speed of the hoof. What about a late start in the game of civilization? The basics of society (agriculture, economics, time, religion, ect.) were passed on from Mesopotamia to the next "Superpower" and germinated through the Old World and passed through different philosophies. Hell, a hundred years ago Russia claimed to be the true descendant of Rome!

There are phenotypical differences between the races (and as such, undeniable genetic differences as well), and without a doubt these differences run deeper. Sub-Saharan Africa is the oldest continuously habituated place in human history and literally 2/3rds of a continent, it is no surprise that most genetic variation will be found here. In fact, Sub-Saharan Africans are the only "human" people if we are strict about it. Everyone else is of varying degrees Neanderthal (usually 1 - 4 percent, Europeans tend towards higher numbers for obvious reasons).

More on Neanderthal grandpappy: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neanderth ... yths.shtml

Nonetheless, cultural development is almost entirely environmentally based and (arguably) more important than the genetic make-up of races or individuals. Japanese people do not have a genetic affinity for curved two-handed swords or tentacle monsters. The former is a glorified symbol and the latter is the product of censorship laws. Nor are do they have a propensity for robotics, nobody is fucking babies and the young will be unable to support the old at current economic levels. Despite relatively advanced Aztec astronomy, Mexico isn't exactly the astronomical capital of the world, although they will have a YUGE wall, the biggest seen from outer space. So there's evidence towards both sides of the argument.

Eugenics only went so far, which is the closest equivalent to the millennia-old wolf breeding program. Humans are too numerous and random to behave like dogs, so we will always return to the mean sooner or later.

Do note that for most of the colonization age, European powers were unable to beat Old World nations. The only reason they took most of the planet hostage is due to early industrialization and coincidence, Great Britain took India when the country was on a downturn and only after establishing both a global trade empire and an industrial base, neither of which India had; same for China, which industrialized begrudgingly. Colonial Africa was mainly a dick-waving contest between European powers, why didn't African nations use their wealth to develop alongside Europeans is anyone's guess (probably same reason why oil countries refuse to diversify), but feudal society < industrial powers, it was an enormous difference at the time.

Unmentioned is Polynesian colonization, these people used their resources to colonize the Pacific Ocean and even reach South America (infrequent/accidental trading) while Rome rose and fell. There's no blaming Polynesians for not developing when they lived in places without the resources to advance towards the next stage of civilization.

Also to note is that only Europe suffered through the "Black Plague" which removed feudalism some centuries earlier than other places in the world and lead to a more egalitarian culture.

Han Chinese also "colonized" China itself to become the largest ethnic group and they originated from a place the size of France/Texas (which is still comparably huge, France itself had 2 main ethnic groups before nationalism). Hell of an achievement. Arabs/Bedouins tried to do the same thing with a lesser degree of success, but they did spread their genes, culture, and religion across the Middle East and North Africa (Berbers, natives of Western North Africa, were often second class citizens in medieval Islamic world and in their own homeland) so they also did a limited form of "colonization". Every time this happened in Europe, a new ethnicity was created rather than assimilated.

Could continue writing, but already spent more time than what I had in mind, so I'll end here.
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
1,488
BlackBolt & climate change:

Yeah, there is so much to the topic it would deserve its own forum... Let's think logically for a second. Couple points, some may overlap because its from different sites. I also had much more material 2-3 years ago but I erased it because I realized that presenting arguments is pointless:

* First my personal view: I have no interest to prove or disprove climate change or global warming. If there is global warming, there is global warming, simple as that - why would I deny it, or what would I gain? Nothing. I'm just a skeptic, amateur, simply prove that what I present is wrong... The climate is changing, but it has been changing all the time and not just in the past century as many times depicted on many of the graphs that are presented. Why don't we have graphs for the past 500,000 years? 500 millions years? 1,2,3 billions of years? In my opinion, these graphs show much different picture.

If we look at these graphs we realize that levels CO2 are actually quite low, perhaps at minimum as they ever were... similarly with average global temperatures. In other words, the Earth was much warmer place in the past, with much higher CO2 levels...

---------------------------
Check this site, some great Pro's and Con's:
http://climatechange.procon.org/

--------------------------

* There is one site perhaps designated to explain all the myths about climate change: (https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php). Some arguments are good, well formulated, perhaps undeniable proof that climate change is happening (again, nobody denies it). Other arguments are rather on high school level, the questions itself are formulated just so they fit the purpose of "proving" climate change. Some examples from the web:

2) "It's the sun" (presented as a climate myth). There is a graph from only 1880... Perhaps it takes some time to warm up (or cool off) for the oceans? It is not just "It's the sun", or not "just CO2" - there are many other variables contributing to overall climate change. Perhaps even high school student (studying science) would presented little bit advanced question than just "it's the sun"...?? These "skeptics" are simply not skeptical enough. They need some lessons in skepticism first because the formulation itself smells by clear agenda: To prove that climate change is happening... See, in real science we do formulate hypothesis and then theories. We don't try to "prove" things, we eliminate things that are not true and what is left is - at least assumed - to be he truth... See null hypothesis and so forth...

4) "There is no consensus" Well, many scientists disagree, see e.g. here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... al_warming
Are all of them wrong? Do they have valid points? Check other things such as Heidelberg Appeal, just by browsing google I see that there are thousands of scientists that don't agree with global warming...

14) "We are heading into an ice age". Fairly good answer, but I believe there is more to it. For example, nobody today can predict what Sun will do next month. Nobody knows if any volcano will start releasing angry fumes next year. All these are also important to consider, changes happened in the past and it had significant impact on the climate change...

18) "Hurricanes aren't linked to global warming". I would actually argue the exact opposite: Hurricanes are linked to warming, it is the natural way of the planet to cool off the extra heat...

19-26) Look at these claims, they are plainly stupid. Or perhaps designed to perceive all the "climate deniers" as stupid...?

39) "Greenland was green". Again, sort of silly argument... The whole point and the explanation itself is rather questionable, just for the fact that climate change is happening everywhere, and it always has been... Greenland is not an exception... Europe used to be under 1 mile ice in the history. Duh!

43) "CO2 is plant food". Well, yeah, unless biology books from 4th grade are lying. Are they? It is of course more complicated, there is no question about it - that is rather the whole point: There are too many factors contributing to climate change, the whole system is complex, and thus singling out CO2 for the past 150 or so may not be the best approach... That is my whole point... See this from that article: "Plants cannot live on CO2 alone; a complete plant metabolism depends on a number of elements". Of course! That is the point, it looks like these skeptics re-discovered 4th grade biology class...

50) "CO2 was higher in the past" and "when CO2 was higher in the past, the sun was cooler". HA! So now it is convenient to use this argument, now it is convenient to show that there are more factors to climate change than just CO2... That is exactly what I am talking about, we cannot just single out CO2 and ignore the rest of the other factors...

51) It warmed before 1940 when CO2 was low". The same argument as above (50). Now it is convenient to use sun and volcano explanations to temperature change in 1940... How do these clowns know what sun will do in 5 years? How do they know how volcanoes will act next year? They have no clue, nobody does... The models are only based on theoretical assumptions that nothing else except CO2 is changing. I'm simply claiming that this is wrong assumption... There may not have been significant changes in the past 150 years or so, but there were significant changes in the past. It is rather a logical conclusion that such changes WILL occur in the future as well, regardless of human activity...

Enough! I'm getting aggravated with these high school arguments. We have to look deeper in the past, not just for the past 200 years... There are many other factors contributing, one factor on its own may not be significant, however when they add up all together the resulting change may be quite different than what global alarmists claim... Which (if we use logic) also means, that it could actually get much WORSE on Earth than they today predict, not just better...


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Check this site, by J. Coleman, the Founder of The Weather Channel, claiming that global warming is a greatest scam in the history:
http://www.global-warming-and-the-clima ... rming.html


-------------

* Next, consider the overall economic impact. Like it or not, coal and oil are still very cheap, other sources of energy is several times more expensive. Currently there is some 7 billion people on the planet, and the population is rapidly growing... Which means industrial expansion... We will have to re-do the whole industry and stop the production of cheap energy. Will it happen today? Most likely not. It might happen in the future though, who knows, maybe 20, 50 or 1000 years from now. But it will not happen today, we like cheap gas, and even if we have to pay $6 per gallon it is still cheap...

Even if countries like USA will stop, will everybody else stop? It doesn't seem like, countries like China will (most likely) continue to build coal plants. See 2015, if the data is accurate China built some 210 coal-fired power plants...

What is there (today) other than fossils? About 2/3 (!!!) of energy produced in USA is from fossil fuels... Would you prefer to have nuclear power plant in the backyard instead? I wouldn't, talk as much as you can about safety, but looking at Fukushima or Chernobyl I just wouldn't... Or noisy wind turbines?

So what are we going to do, turn off all the electricity? Stop flying planes and stop using trains, buses? Go back to live in nature (which I wouldn't honestly mind at all, but I know 90% people wouldn't do it)? How are we going to generate electrical energy to recharge electrical cars if not by burning fossils (currently 66%) or nuclear energy (currently 20%) in USA?

After all, "Going green" may not be that easy as it perhaps seems...

--------------------

* See this web, some interesting points: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/146138 ... is-natural
Most likely not all of them are true, and some may already be debunked, but some of them are really interesting to consider:

- After World War II, there was a huge surge in recorded CO2 emissions but global temperatures fell for four decades after 1940
- Throughout the Earth’s history, temperatures have often been warmer than now and CO2 levels have often been higher – more than ten times as high (I already mentioned that one)
- The 0.7C increase in the average global temperature over the last hundred years is entirely consistent with well-established, long-term, natural climate trends
- The IPCC theory is driven by just 60 scientists and favourable reviewers not the 4,000 usually cited (Hm, true or not?)
- Politicians and activiists claim rising sea levels are a direct cause of global warming but sea levels rates have been increasing steadily since the last ice age 10,000 ago (interesting point)
- Despite activist concerns over CO2 levels, rising CO2 levels are our best hope of raising crop yields to feed an ever-growing population (Interesting point, as already mentioned, plants do love CO2, and we will need more plants to feed the growing human population - why not plant more trees and plants then...?)
- The slight increase in temperature which has been observed since 1900 is entirely consistent with well-established, long-term natural climate cycles (that's what I said above)
- Today’s CO2 concentration of around 385 ppm is very low compared to most of the earth’s history – we actually live in a carbon-deficient atmosphere (Exactly!)

... I'm not going through the whole list, but as you can see some of the points are valid...

---------------------

* Also check these sites, claiming that the climate data is fake data: https://realclimatescience.com/2017/02/ ... fake-data/
or
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02/07 ... l-reasons/
or
http://www.naturalnews.com/2017-02-05-g ... fraud.html

-------------------

Lots of controversy, the overall climate change is simply not that clear cut as it appears, we should consider opposition as well...

Good talk
 

BlackBolt

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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@Slay
But he's not the dominant one, he didn't bulldoze by himself he had help from a unified Republican base, a populist message (on economics), and the establishment (billionaires like Woody Johnson) so he wasn't really anti establishment and he wasn't dominant. Many were just deceived by his rhetoric which he is a genius in that regard. So i guess what you can learn from Trump is to have false bravado, false dominance, and don't let any offense against go buy without attacking those who attack you. That's social ladder climbing But this is not true dominance. Could you see FDR, James Bond, etc getting into pointless twitter wars. That's the total opposite of law of least effort. Anyone who isn't under Trumps cult of personality could see he's insecure not dominant and he's a liar. For seductions being a lying social ladder climber could work but in my opinion that wouldn't be the best way to live your life, run your relationships, etc.
 

BlackBolt

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
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@Drck
Yeah good talk, this could be its own topic. Big oil and fossil fuel transnational corporations have an interest in maintaining the status quo, keeping money in politics to control legislation that fits their interests, and keep maximizing short term profits at the expense of long term sustainability. While those on the side of more than 99.5% scientists value long term sustainability, green technology which in actuality could be highly bemeficial economically and ecologically but this would require long term investments that would hurt profits in the short term but boom in the long term. America has the capability of leading the world in this technology but her marriage with big oil and fossil fuels corporations is the ONLY reason their is conflict. I didn't get a chance to read every link you posted yet but just on the one link about the founder of the weather channel i definitely remember reading about his statement and the weather channel's response when it came out. The weather channel said he wasn't speaking for them and hasn't been directly involved in the scientific findings of the weather channel for at least 31 years. So pretty much he's out of touch.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/pat ... ng-baloney

I'll try and get to the other links you posted but were the scientists you referring to publishing their work in peer reviewed journals? That's where the info is put under scrutiny and tested empirically to see if there is any merit to it
 

valence

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Messages
21
Yeah, Trumps' is definitely an interesting phenomenon.

One on side you have his campaign, which helped him ascend to the White House, and on the other hand you have the man himself who gets pulled into seemingly-pointless Twitter wars.

His campaign on its own seemed to follow the law of least effort, to me, at least. In other words, it was quite efficient. He didn't bust his ass speaking in already-polarized states like (CA, TX, NY), nor did he go around publicly raising money (had a ton himself, and quite possibly some rich backers), gathering celebrity support, trying to seem 'cool'. It was, for the most part, quite targeted. Hey knew what had to be done and just went and did it. There certainly was a lot more planning and nuance in his campaign than what is outwardly visible. Externally, he seemed like a bumbling idiot who sneaked his way in by fear-mongering. So to me it does seem like "great results, little apparent effort", albeit in a slightly twisted way.

Compare that to Hillary's efforts which indeed seemed tryhard. Trump almost effortlessly postured as the 'anti-hero', standing for everything anti-establishment, whereas Hillary tried to convince all of us with the whole "I'm a woman. That's anti-establishment" talk. And it failed quite spectacularly, even on her supporters. Generally speaking, it was fairly evident that she was trying to seem like the perfect candidate while not appearing so, and Trump never got around to doing that, and became President.

Trump as a man, however, doesn't seem to be as widely respected. In fact out of everyone, Ben Carson, despite his early dismissal, won plaudits for his composure. Of course, just composure won't do much, especially when you're running for POTUS. The President's tweets have continuously drawn ire of citizens, with some of his supporters quietly wishing that he would comport himself better, and his opponents pointing to them, indicating they were proof that he'd be a terrible Head of State.

Maybe there's an agenda behind his tweets? Public figures operate at a level above most of us (I don't mean they're necessarily smarter [although they often are], but they play the game on a different field). I've often found that politics, media, cinema, etc, bring out the inner animal in a human being. There's usually a lot at stake. And the currency there (money, power, sex) appeal to the deepest, basest needs of people. So there's less of a rational approach to things. They can be quite animalistic creatures, world leaders, actors and top businessmen.

Anyway, this is my analysis (and that's all it is: an analysis). It's easy to sit on a couch and be critical of Hillary, or Trump, or anybody for that matter. It's a lot tougher fighting the battle. But I'm preaching the choir here.

As a side note I would like to know why he does some of what he does. His tweets or his continuous lambasting of his critics. As Chase noted in an article, maybe he's just extremely cautious of labels sticking to him. And at that level, perhaps that's more important than the LoLE.

Also, Hector, you mentioned that out-and-out aggressive manliness is more effective than its more composed, dignified sibling. I'd be grateful if you could clarify that a bit. I grew up in a fairly 'Red-Pill' household with a fairly-aggressive dad and a mom who was more RP than him :) I've always excelled at a more elegant, aloof style than an aggressive one. That was partly due to anxiety too. Nonetheless I've always been a bit of an asshole, albeit a quiet one. Now that I'm working on it, maybe I could incorporate some 'asshole game' like yours, into my style, although I can't for the life of me be that completely. Thanks
 

Ree

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
714
ANATMAN FUCKING ROCKS!!!!!!!!!
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake

Ree

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Howell said:
What I find particularly hilarious is that the keenest defenders of religion, are the quickest to defend pseudoscience like evolutionary psychology, filth that we would otherwise associate with "atheism". And why? Because evolutionary psychology, essentialism, 'genetic determinism', all of these things are just as superstitious as the religious phenomena they are so quick to defend.

Sigh....evolutionary psychology is the reason we learn game....are you anti game?....any seducer by definition is a believer in evolutionary psychology




Howell said:
Genes are not a factor in behavior .

Man....really?
..as a man..are you attracted to women?...l.are you attracted to women because society told you men are supposed to be attracted to women.....or is it just how you were made?......if you are sedually attracted to women...as opposed to desks or walls or other men......can you then claim genes are not a factor in behavior ...are you not attracted to women because as a man you have genes that tell ur brain to be attracted to women ?



Howell said:
Genes (and hormones) are significant only in arbitrary ways. ?

Diffreerntiating between genes and hormones is a very common amateurs fallacy ....hormones are simple proteins that affect the brain.....these hormones are made by organs...which are coded by genes.
 

Ree

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
714
I always envision chase as a tall sage...coming down fom the Mountains with a flowing cloak...and a flowing beard...

..hey chase how you been..?..
.....I know we both know that genetics and enviroment both play a part in human behavior ..
Can you believe this Howell guy...claiming evolutionary psychology is a pseudoscience?
....then going on and on and posting a whole novella of psuedoscience....
I hope he is a natural.....because can anyone learn game without understanding that evolutionary psychology provides all the whys to what we do ...anyway


Chase said:
Some questions I would perhaps ask to anyone arguing a hardline all/mostly genes or culture perspective:

Can you give an example of a behavior that is mostly or completely determined by your instrument of choice (whether genes or culture)? If so, can you prove to the satisfaction of most reasonable parties it is indeed your instrument of choice (genes/culture) that is responsible for this behavior?



Chase


To name a behavior that is mostly genetic....let's say...men's attraction.....men are attracted to females.
And not just all females....young females.....
This is so universal that the culprit has to be genes....
There is no secret culture or uncharterd island where the men are sexually attracted to tree trunks...or to pebbles .
....everything you teach us about fundamentals works so well because of the genetic similarity of females ....
No culture will ever have females finding a submissive emancipated dirty coughing man more sexually attractive than a dominant guy with a six pack
 

Ree

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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BlackBolt said:
@Slay
But he's not the dominant one, he didn't bulldoze by himself he had help from a unified Republican base, a populist message (on economics), and the establishment (billionaires like Woody Johnson) so he wasn't really anti establishment and he wasn't dominant. Many were just deceived by his rhetoric which he is a genius in that regard. So i guess what you can learn from Trump is to have false bravado, false dominance, and don't let any offense against go buy without attacking those who attack you. That's social ladder climbing But this is not true dominance. Could you see FDR, James Bond, etc getting into pointless twitter wars. That's the total opposite of law of least effort. Anyone who isn't under Trumps cult of personality could see he's insecure not dominant and he's a liar. For seductions being a lying social ladder climber could work but in my opinion that wouldn't be the best way to live your life, run your relationships, etc.
man black bolt
You seem like a really cool smart guy ....I don't know howit is we always seem to be on opposite sides of every debate
Trump s dominant....hes wars are not pointless.....
This is a topic that chase himself has posted about....when to accept challenges .
.....if you are a nobody and you insult trump on twitter...he will probably just ignore you....
Trump will only ever respond if there is a real danger that you will influence opinion...this is smart and even James bond would do the same thing.....the law of least effort doesn't mean you never do anything.
....if someone texts me on a private line and calls me a rapist...I can just ignore them.
....but if a famous journalist hosts a press conference and calls me a rapist....I will then have to fight back and defend my reputation....when there is an actual threat...shrugging it off in an attempt to follow spezzetura would be very misguided
 

BlackBolt

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
116
@Drck

"There is no consensus" Well, many scientists disagree, see e.g. here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... al_warming
That link you posted is in agreement that "There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities", in particular emissions of the greenhouse gases carbon dioxide and methane, These findings are recognized by the national science academies of all the major industrialized nations; the consensus has strengthened over time and is now virtually unanimous. The level of consensus correlates with expertise in climate science. More importantly Few of the statements in the references for this list are part of the peer-reviewed scientific literature; most are from other sources such as interviews, opinion pieces, online essays and presentations.. Hmmm, That smells of pseudoscience, I guarantee you this is also common with Creationists like Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis who do similar things even though the scientific consensus refutes their claims

The link also says "There have been several efforts to compile lists of dissenting scientists, including a 2008 US senate minority report,[13] the Oregon Petition,[14] and a 2007 list by the Heartland Institute". Those lists have all been heavily refuted and debunked.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-gra ... ming_b_243
http://www.smh.com.au/news/global-warmi ... ntentSwap2
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/10/us/po ... .html?_r=0

Perusing the list of really questionable scientists I see quite a few names that make my spidey senses start tingling. First up is David Bellamy ( a fucking botanist and not an expert in climate science mind you) In his book Heat, George Monbiot gives the example of the TV presenter and botanist, David Bellamy, who is also a climate sceptic. He told the New Scientist in 2005 that most glaciers in the world were growing, not shrinking. He said his evidence came from the World Glacier Monitoring Service in Switzerland, a reputable body. When Monbiot checked the service, they said Bellamy's claim was "complete bullshit". The world's glaciers are retreating. When pressed, Bellamy pointed to a website, iceagenow.com, which claims we are heading for a new ice age. Last week, it published an article that stated that last month, the American Physical Society had "reversed its stance on climate change and is now proclaiming that many of its members disbelieve in human-induced global warming". This is stunning. Global warming is all about physics and the society is the premier body of US physicists. A check with its website showed the opposite. Prominent was a press release reaffirming that the evidence for global warming was "incontrovertible". Once again, a sceptic website was simply lying.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/global-warmi ... ntentSwap2

Another example on that list is Willie Soon. "One of the world’s most prominent climate researchers publishing scientific papers that doubt humanity’s role in climate change has received at least $1.2 million from the fossil fuel industry, "received hundreds of thousands of dollars each from ExxonMobil, the American Petroleum Institute, coal utility Southern Company, the Charles G. Koch Foundation, and other conservative groups, according to documents obtained by Greenpeace and the Climate Investigations Center, and spotlighted by the New York Times on Saturday. Over the last decade, Soon failed to disclose this funding in at least 11 of his scientific papers, likely violating ethical guidelines in eight of those cases." and he was condemned by Harvard " he is a part-time researcher that receives funding externally and that the Smithsonian “does not support Dr. Soon’s conclusions on climate change.”
https://thinkprogress.org/climate-denie ... .rtw7h01di

I'll give you one more. You have the notorious Frederick Seitz and Fred Singer. These guys LITERALLY were on the payroll of tobacco companies who turned out to be the very same scientists now working for oil and coal companies to create confusion about global warming. You can't make this stuff up man, Sad! They got rich off of Big oil and TOBACCO companies.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-kor ... 88972.html

As the link you posted says "Few of the statements in the references for this list are part of the peer-reviewed scientific literature" this Global warming scepticism is being manipulated by tactics reminiscient of an earlier campaign of denial (spoiler alert) its the same tactics used by Big Tobacco corporations 50 years ago. We know better now.

There is one site perhaps designated to explain all the myths about climate change: (https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php).
That site is pretty solid. You said they have a lot of high school type explanations of their views but if you look at each topic there is a basic, intermediate, and advanced explanation (I'm guessing to appeal to the layman and expert alike). Here is a more thorough explanation regarding how before Climate reacts to whatever forces it to change at the time; humans are now the dominant force
https://www.skepticalscience.com/climat ... ediate.htm

Dr. John Bates' words were taken out of context and blown way out of proportion. Bates himself downplayed any suggestion of misconduct. “The issue here is not an issue of tampering with data, but rather really of timing of a release of a paper that had not properly disclosed everything it was,” he told reporter Scott Waldman. And Bates told ScienceInsider that he is wary of his critique becoming a talking point for those skeptical of human-caused climate change.But it was important for this conversation about data integrity to happen, he says. “That’s where I came down after a lot of soul searching. I knew people would misuse this. But you can't control other people,” he says.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/ ... ause-study

http://www.naturalnews.com/2017-02-05-g ... fraud.html
Natural News is Pseudoscience and I wouldn't trust them just like I don't believe that the earth was created in 6 days or that the world is controlled by reptilian like humanoids (they actually believe in the latter).
http://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/who-do ... udoscience

Lots of controversy, the overall climate change is simply not that clear cut as it appears, we should consider opposition as well
It's clear, out of thousands of articles more than 99% of scientists agree that global warming is largely man made. This quote just about sums it up
"To me, one of the most fascinating aspects of climate change denial is how deniers essentially never publish in legitimate journals, but instead rely on talk shows, grossly error-laden op-eds, and hugely out-of-date claims (that were never right to start with)."
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronom ... apers.html

I agree we do need to be in opposition.

In the year 2011 it costs us 1.1 Trillion, in 2011 ALONE due to pollution, negative externality costs, directly lowered prices, tax breaks, and the failure to properly price carbon. Even if we decided to invest 1 trillion dollars in renewable energy resources we would STILL SAVE FUCKING MONEY in th long run.
https://thinkprogress.org/bombshell-imf ... .7c7v1yulg
The American masses are massively in against climate denialism (at least those from 18-34 so basically the future of America)
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/ ... limate-lcv
Right now, we have an energy policy that is rigged to boost the profits of big oil companies like Exxon, BP, and Shell at the expense of average Americans. The proof is in the pudding, who buys our politicians... THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY!

Next, consider the overall economic impact.
In actuality it is VERY EXPENSIVE like I said earlier. The outdated model tries to hold on to the status quo no matter what, but the better technolody is always the best option, we traded the horse and buggy for the car. We need to start subsidizing alternative energy and make deals with other nations like the Paris Agreement that IS OUR FUTURE.

The U.S. stands to gain up to $10 trillion by 2050 if other countries take action against climate change, We're a global leader, China's already trying to do something our European counterparts were ready to sign on with the Paris Agreement as well as others
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/us- ... 1799132a1b
We can do incredible things with renewable energy like use grass and waste for energy
http://www.rawstory.com/2013/09/researc ... to-energy/
http://www.rawstory.com/2013/09/brachia ... cientists/

Thorium is nuclear power that is virtually melt down proof which is a GREAT source for energy that would ensure against Chernobyl. If fossil fuels didn't have a stranglehold on our govt. we'd be able to invest in better alternative energy that would benefit us tremendously. The status quo benefits the few i.e. the billionaires, the politicians, and their donors.
 

BlackBolt

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
116
@Ree
It's like that with some of my friends too. Some of whom are adamant Trump supporters and believe he is dominant. It kind of reminds me of when I first started reading GC back as a freshman in college. When I started really applying moving fast, it changed how I thought. A lot of my friends just couldn't believe it was possible to take a girl to Wendy's, not buy her anything, and then after a 30 minute conversation she's going back to your dorm to get fucked. Fast foward to now, and some of those same guys are going to bars and pulling home 2 girls, with limited conversation mostly dancing and having fun. GC really changes the way you view social interactions. I know a lot of GC readers see Trump as dominant, and I might even relent my previous post and agree with you that he is dominant to a degree. I view him as the Jerk, which can be dominant; GC authors like Chase and Anatman recommend going through an asshole phase, but that's never the end goal is it? It's all about cultivating yourself to be better than the jerk.

For Trump. He's an insecure jerk. This dude use to call various journalist outlets and pretend to be his own PR guy to BRAG ABOUT HIMSELF. He tried to sue people over joking about him i.e. Bill Maher calling him the son of an orangutan and the Onion's satire article. That is insecurity.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/don ... 96c182eedd

That's not to say there's nothing you can't learn from Trump. He's a Genius speaker, though he isn't elegant. He uses pregnant pauses and is known for speaking an enthymeme. That's what Aristotle did. You can use that in seduction with sexual frames, innuendos, where the girl can even be seducing herself by interpreting your phrases for you, if done right.
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/donald- ... ird-trick/

But how I view Trump is sort of as that one asshole friend who always seems to be overly boisterous and arrogant in his claims. You're talking to the group about your successful dating life, all the new girls you're getting with, and then he's also chiming in, in a loud type manner and trying to dominate the conversation and captivate the group by making outlandish claims. You eventually find out that the overly haughty one is actually a liar and his claims are grossly overexaggerated. Would you still view him as a dominant straigth shooter?

Or the bully on the playground who is physically domineering and only boosts himself up by trying to talk down on others. What happens whe the hero of the story finally stands up to him, the bully "GETS KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT" just like in Friday LOL. This is because that figure's foundation was not built on true confidence but on false pretenses. I see Trump as the fraud he is who has bad policies almost on the same level as Bush's i.e. the bubble is reinflated. I have friends in my life who argue differently, and to them I respectfully disagree.
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
1,488
Good reply BlackBolt. To be honest, this topic no longer interest me that much so I am not going to spent more time on it. I think I made my opinion about it, in summary:

1) I agree that climate change is happening - it always was, since the Earth was formatted. Just a brief interesting point: 99% of all species that ever lived on Earth became extinct. We (humans) and current species are the 1% that survived, or rather evolved and adapted to a new environment. Climate change definitely contributed to the mass extinctions that occurred in the past (others factors were e.g. volcanoes, asteroids, ...). See: http://www.livescience.com/1752-greates ... tions.html

2) I agree that humans cause climate change say for the past 100-150 years or so, since the industrial revolution. Why not? It makes perfect sense, we burn coal, we build factories, we fly thousands of planes each minute, we drive millions of cars, we cut down trees, change agriculture... That is not the point though, who would deny that humans cause or contribute to climate change, and why? Where I am skeptical is how much do we have overall effect on climate change, and what are other factors that currently contribute or may contribute to climate change, such as volcanoes, sun's activity, others?? Just because sun was behaving certain way in the past X years, can we be sure that some changes won't happen tomorrow or in 10 years? I think such claim would be ridiculous...

Also, check this one out: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... gases.html
...Huge amounts of the molten carbon could be released... who knows when? It could be 1 millions of years from now. It could be in 1000 years. But it also could be tomorrow... This is another huge factor that can totally change the climate in no time. In comparison to this, human activity may be like a little spit into a lake... This one was apparently just discovered recently... The question is: What other significant factors are there?

3) Another thing that I consider as a good point: In stead of totally restructuring technology that stops releasing CO2 to atmosphere - why not create some system that will reduce the extra CO2 from atmosphere? We have the brains and the technology to do it. If I am not mistaken, such mechanisms already exists - why not focusing on creating better ones? Problem solved right there...

-------

In summary, what I see in the whole "climate change" is just an agenda. Cars and planes burn gas, OMG, lets stop driving cars and flying planes! Let's stop burning coal because it releases CO2! That is such a nonsense... We can still drive cars for many hundreds of years, there is plenty of oil for everyone. At the same time, we can much improve the CO2 levels in atmosphere by technological advances...

If nothing else, science should teach people to keep open mind... In 10-40 years from now we can have amazing technology that either focuses on reducing CO2 in atmosphere, or technology that runs on another source of energy... Or, as I say, we can have both at the same time... Why not...? All it takes is focus...

I'll tell you what is the real problem: What do these people in NASA getting paid for, to create more problems?? There are no ambitious engineers that can solve problems? There are no solution seekers for complex problems? There are no people willing to have open mind, no people that are willing to attack the issue with minds sharper than swords?

That is the real issue, politically correct faggotry, and not elevated levels of CO2 - which is actually at the MINIMUM as ever in history of Earth...
 
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