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Are all races created equal?

Hector Papi Castillo

Tribal Elder
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No, not all races are created equal and my Mapuche blood is superior to all of y'alls.

220px-Galvarino.jpg


This is Galvarino. Captured by the Spanish and had both arms amputated to be sent back to the Mapuche as a warning of what happens when you fuck with the Spanish.

He indeed went back to the Mapuche, but instead of speaking fearfully of the Spanish, told them "Fuck those guys; they screwed up sending me back." He was promoted and given a warband. Before leading that warband back into battle, he had two knives bound to his nubs.

Then, in battle, he skullfucked countless Spaniards and helped the Mapuche become one of the only tribes to successfully repel the Spanish invasion (even the Incas couldn't do that, cuz smallpox).

Bow down to my genetic superiority.

I'm so glad I'm a minority; it's generally acceptable for me to say super racist shit.

Unfortunately, because of this, you got tons of crazy cooks calling for white genocide, but the only people rebelling against this are the badass conservatives on Breitbart and Trump supporters. They realize the racism for what it is. Good thing I'm also half-whitie, so I feel some need to preserve white America.

But yeah, I'd say that since you guys can't even come to a consensus as to what is legitimate science and what isn't, I'll just argue based on intuition (it seems to be as fallible as everything else being thrown out). Dismiss it as you will.

Every race has the capacity for extreme knowledge, extreme ingenuity, and extreme physical strength. Similarly, but not necessarily exactly, women can outperform men in math and science, but even when they do, they don't stay in the field for very long, because they have a severe need to socialize, whereas men are much more comfortable sitting in silent, solitary study.

If we're sticking with the sexes, before moving to race (it's a less controversial topic), you see that everywhere in the world, the rite of passage for men is basically "are you tough enough to be a man?" Chase wrote an article way back when detailing the various ways men prove their masculinity. It seems that masculinity does not derive from polygenesis - there is not some cultural melting pot that causes cultures that could not have had contact with each other to all test masculinity based on the same traits. Men based masculinity on some very identifiable traits, like toughness and courage, because that's what masculinity is. Over-intellectualize it all you like, the proof is in the blood of teenage men sticking tusks into their rib cage and lifting themselves into the air for an entire afternoon.

Similarly, there is probably some predisposition that each race has. The Indians (post-Aryan invasion) were exceptional in theology - even two millennia of progress in Christian theology, and Europeans still can't compete with what was known by the Brahmanical society of 600 B.C. India, in terms of categorizing the nature of reality/god in exact terms.

Why?

Because the Middle East is more poetic than India. That's why you have guys like Jesus, Rumi, etc. Their skill in transmission of their truths was poetic, not hyper-scholastic and categorical like the Buddha (though the Buddha did find himself expressing his thoughts in verse post-enlightenment and even exclaimed surprise at the fact).

But then you have the Greeks who were also hyper-logical. Aristotle, for instance. What frustrates this further is that you also have someone like Heraclites (I can never stop myself from thinking of clitoris when reading/writing his name), who was super-poetic and most readers of him, even in his time, found him super frustrating.

"Ah, see, there's no unified identity! It is culturally determined!" someone might retort. Well, you can find exceptions in any situation. The point is to find large broad strokes, if you are trying to make large broad strokes (and that's what this discussion is about).

To that, I would say that it seems different races have the propensity for certain kinds of government, skills, and lifestyles. Do they adapt to their surroundings? Probably, yeah, and I can't exactly demonstrate that it wasn't their environment that determined their genes...but that's what the genetic argument is right?

I'm not sure any of that made sense, but whatever. I guess my thesis is like this - race is like sex; you have a certain disposition for particular things, your upbringing can change it, and through sheer force of will you can change it, but it probably won't be pleasant, because you're fighting propensity.

Hector
 

Guest0291

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@Anatman but who was proof? Again, points are being made without any evidence to back it up aside from anecdotal.


Anatman said:
I'm so glad I'm a minority; it's generally acceptable for me to say super racist shit.

Unfortunately, because of this, you got tons of crazy cooks calling for white genocide, but the only people rebelling against this are the badass conservatives on Breitbart and Trump supporters. They realize the racism for what it is. Good thing I'm also half-whitie, so I feel some need to preserve white America

I'm guessing you're just being facetious, but even then, none of those sentences string together to form a coherent thought. There are cooks calling for white genocide (http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/201 ... tweet.html) the same way you have people calling for the genocide/"peaceful ethnic cleansing" of nonwhites (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... pi/508379/). Not to say there's a perfect balance, but to single out one side of the issue is ridiculous.

How many "cooks" each side of the political spectrum has I don't know. But to form a conclusion that America is in a battle against people wanting white genocide is as ludicrous as saying America is in a battle against people wanting to exterminate blacks/Muslims/etcs without proper proof. I don't know why you choose to jump to conclusions, especially the one where Trump and his kin are the sole rebellion against this grand support for wiping out whites.

Furthermore, to view Trump, his supporters, and Breitbart as beacons of respectability/"badassery" without proof of why you do also makes no sense. Prove why they are great. Or prove why they are not. Stating someone as a "badass" is meaningless in an argument. What is your definition for the phrase as well? If it's the actual one, "a tough, uncompromising, or intimidating person," I'd say it's difficult to find evidence proving them as such, especially in comparison to those of much greater "badass" accomplishments, like those of Audie Murphy.

Finally, Breitbart is shoddy journalism. That's not to say "the Left" do not have bad journalistic practices ("OccupyDemocrats" being an example), but that doesn't mean Breitbart is innocent. I find it hard to believe a site with this article can claim journalistic integrity: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/11 ... otherwise/

By all means, issue corrections and do research beyond mainstream media, but citing sites like Breitbart is questionable. Of course this is off topic from the original post.

Anatman said:
But yeah, I'd say that since you guys can't even come to a consensus as to what is legitimate science and what isn't, I'll just argue based on intuition (it seems to be as fallible as everything else being thrown out). Dismiss it as you will.

Coming to a consensus for this argument could be possible, although it'd probably still be shoddy without quality evidence and input from people that actually work in the field. However, so far there are a couple of posters choosing to argue based on "intuition" and gut feeling rather than attempt forming a logical argument with relatively sound points. With regards to my point regarding Red Pill's fascination with their idea of alpha wolves (proven wrong by the original researcher) to the point it guides their lives, I'd question how reliable intuition can be when based on faulty evidence.

No study is perfect and many have problems, I know, but if we do not look at the well constructed points by people who have done more of the work, we make blind arguments when we talk about subjects we do not understand well enough. Who are you going to trust to build a bridge, a civil engineer who has studied and mastered his skills or a lawyer who believes he's confident enough to succeed? Even if you were to read and study away all day books on a myriad of topics, I'd wager that someone who has dedicated 20 years of experience in a field is likely to know more on the matter.

"So what's the point of citing these studies if I'm not qualified to answer?" The point is don't make arguments based on faulty evidence. If you can't back it up or if the evidence has problems, then don't pretend to be correct. That is what I have been doing here: providing cited feedback on evidence that shows there a good few holes in it, thus it is very likely the evidence in question is faulty and incorrect. So a conclusion should not be drawn with it. Do I have the correct answer to serve in its place? No, but I listed avenues to finding people that might.

Chase at least took the effort to cite and assert an argument, even choosing to add helpful life advice at the end of his statement. Granted, your message seems to have a positive connotation, but that is meaningless in an argument. In a time where many are fear mongering from both sides of the political spectrum and #fakenews is trending, it's wise to admit ignorance when it comes to scientific subjects you are unqualified for like this point here and stop relentlessly sticking to an idea you have no proven basis for. Basically, don't go full tinfoil.
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

Hector Papi Castillo

Tribal Elder
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but who was proof? Again, points are being made without any evidence to back it up aside from anecdotal.

I made it pretty clear that I was being anecdotal.

I'm guessing you're just being facetious, but even then, none of those sentences string together to form a coherent thought.

It's pretty easy to tell when I'm fucking around, but often I'm half in and half out of discussions, since I've never, if ever, seen anyone genuinely be convinced by another person. The ego is too good at blocking itself from progress. Also, conversion/persuasion doesn't necessarily mean that side is right.

My job in discussion, then, is to lay a seed and let it germinate. Other than, I'm having fun.

Onwards...

I didn't say there weren't cooks on either side. I think the Pubs are as stupid as liberals, they just happen to be a little bit more right this time around. The extremism will tip on the conservative side soon enough and I'll be back to dissing on them, albeit for different reasons than my Marxist days (I used to be a walking talking quoter of the Manifesto and The German Ideology).

As for proving if someone is a badass, this sounds like some debates I used to have on Debate.org long ago where we picked a team of fictional characters and argued about who would beat who. If you can guess, it was replete with bullshit, as would any discussion about why Donald Trump should henceforward be referred to as The Don, because he's awesome.

He's not a good person, but he is a winner and a harbinger of the return of the douchebag Alpha male.

You're referencing soldiers as counter-examples of awesomeness? I mean, yeah, they're badass, too, but it's a completely different kind. He's a business mogul who single-handedly destroyed every opponent in the Republican party, fought against opposition in the Republican party even after he won the nomination, survived weekly scandals, one of which would have killed any other candidate, AMOGed the mainstream media, and masterfully mapped out the electoral college in his campaign so that he would crush Hillary in the only vote that mattered - the vote of districts. All while contributing more than half of his campaign's funds himself.I don't see what's NOT awesome about The Don's rise to power. His social skills are out of this world.

That chick is cool tho. Of course, Galvaniro would skullfuck all of them (see how silly this "my hero can beat your hero!" discussion is? It's like we're comparing who's dad could whoop who).

Breitbart is certainly sensationalist and if you show me a story that is inaccurate, I'll probably say "yeah, that's inaccurate," but they bring to light a lot of subjects that the predominantly left-leaning mainstream media (if you don't think the mainstream media is left-leaning, then we're going to have a lot of trouble talking).

You gotta realize that I'm not really on anyone's side, so lumping me on anyone's side is a mistake. I study people and I study power, and I align with politics that create a society that I consider the most fun.

Watching the left eat its own, watching the pseudo-intellectualization of politics crumble as people realize how retarded it is (e.g, the 60+ gender pronouns that now exist), watching the intellectuals and my fellow millennials cry the Euphrates full, and watching the resurrection of the ultra-violent alpha male society? It's better than porn.


Who are you going to trust to build a bridge, a civil engineer who has studied and mastered his skills or a lawyer who believes he's confident enough to succeed? Even if you were to read and study away all day books on a myriad of topics, I'd wager that someone who has dedicated 20 years of experience in a field is likely to know more on the matter.

With hard science, I'll trust those with Ph. D's until we reach the the sub-quantum level, and then I'm going to go with the mystics. They've got that "ultimate level" shit figured out and have had it figured out foreverz.

With soft-sciences, however, i'm pretty skeptical. I think most sociologists, psychologists, etc might be onto some interesting conclusions, but I'd trust my own understanding of people over any of them.

This is not some sort of anti-intellectualism, i assure you. I just recognize the limit of scholarship and the intellect.

But this is a discussion that you believe the geneticists has a pretty big say in, and I agree. Hard science, dope.

Before we start, we need to know if particular genes are linked to particular behaviors. It looks like yes. For example,the Glucocorticoid Receptor Gene (NR3C1) is suggested to be linked to an increased risk of externalizing psychopathology.

Cool, genetics are related to behaviors.

Next, we need to know if any racially-unique genes have been found. Okay, I remember there being some gene in particular Africans that give them immunity to malaria if it's recessive, but also sickle-cell anemia if it's dominant, or something like that. But that might just be environmental, not necessarily racial right? So that might be a bunk avenue.

Regardless, even if we do find racially-unique genes, we need to know if these genes have behavioral consequences, not just immune-system ones.

http://time.com/91081/what-science-says ... -genetics/

Aha, that's funny, they go into Jews and why they're so goddamned smart. Oh, wait, the main guy being cited is an economic historian. Well, that's gone.

Okay, let's say for instance, then, that we haven't yet identified any racially-unique genes? Well, it doesn't mean there is no racially genetic differences right? We'd be committing the fallacy of an appeal to ignorance if we stated something like that.

We need to know all the genes. And we do, kinda. We have the human genome mapped out. But I remember talking to a woman who worked on the project and she said that while they've mapped out the genome, they don't know what all of them do, i.e., what their effects are, behavioral or otherwise (that was also 7 years ago). Also, they only sequenced the euchromatic regions, but not the heterochromatic regions. Still 5% of the genes not yet mapped.

So we're super strugglin' for info it seems (or maybe my research was shitty. Any suggestions?)

Let's hypothesize then that behavior is not in any way racially influenced, then it has to be some environmental/social reason why they behave differently, right? Well, then one would ask why they're socializing differently if their genetics show no inherent propensity for particular behavior? It must be environmental (e.g., the Jomon people of ancient-Japan reacted to their island in the only way that people on that island would react to it).

So that's another fun direction - how do you dissociate environmental/social influences from genetic behaviors - i.e., how do you, with statistical accuracy, isolate X behavior as predispositioned by Y gene? Seems like a clusterfuck to me. Gotta bring in the sociologists/psychologists, huh? I'm not the biggest fan of them tho...

Any tips, Traceur?

Looks like we're left with "I got no fucking idea." In that case, I'm going to go with my intuition :)

Btw, you should hangout with Howell. Your tone and they way you structure your syntax for maximum condescension is almost indistinguishable from his. You guys also take intellectual dominance very seriously (out of curiosity, how much do you value physical dominance? I'm quite literally curious).

Hector
 

Howell

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Traceur and Hector are correct in suggesting that human behavior is not 'racially influenced'. I tirelessly seem to need to reiterate that phylogeny manifests increasing autonomy from strict biological controls, such as genes. Whereas genes directly determine the behavior of low organisms, mediating factors among mammals, and especially man, supersede genetic influences. Many anthropologists have also described the autonomy of human activity (as opposed to anatomy) from strict genetic determination. This is especially evident historically where, as LaBarre, Kroeber, Leakey, Montagu, and Pannekoek have observed, cultural, mental, and technological changes have occurred over millennia without any significant corresponding genetic transformations. The same genetic structure obviously supports an enormous variety of activities without determining them, and therefore functions as a general substratum which engenders only the most abstract capacities, rather than particular activities. This in no way denies the importance of genotypes. Quite the contrary, it is the unique nature of human genotypes that enables psychology to be functionally autonomous.

Human adaptation and survival have an entirely different basis from animals which requires a correspondingly unique genotype. We adapt and survive through refining our technological, social, and mental mediations. This continual modification presupposes a genetic endowment, with the maximum capacity for rapid phenotypic adjustment. Human subsistence depends on intelligently devised actions, not on organismic, genetically produced, changes (Montagu, The Concept of Race, 1962, p. x). Human evolution is a process of expanding man’s mastery of the environment, not genetically adjusting to it. Animal evolution occurs by natural selection of physical, organismic traits; however, human evolution occurs by “artificial selection” — by which I mean the invention of extrabiological (technological and social) extensions of the biological organism (Dewart, Evolution and Consciousness, p. 180). LaBarre (1955) explains the advantage that extrabiological evolution gives humans:

Machines not only can do man’s flying, driving, and superhuman seeing and hearing for him, but also they do his evolving for him… The old style evolution of body adaptation is obsolete. All previous animals had been subject to the autoplastic evolution of their self-substance, committing their bodies to experimental adaptations in a blind genetic gamble for survival. The stakes in this game were high: life or death. Man’s evolution, on the other hand, is through alloplastic experiments with objects outside his own body and is concerned only with the products of his hands, brains, and eyes – and not with his body itself…

It is not only the genetic freedom of man’s new kind of evolution that is significant; one has to consider also the fantastic speed of it as well. It took millions and millions of years from fish to whale to evolve a warm-blooded marine mammal: but man evolved submarines from dream to actuality in a mere few centuries and at no genetic price in physical specialization. (pp. 90-91)

Animal evolution via physical specialization results in the creation of entirely new species. Human’s nonbiological evolution, in contrast, leaves the biological character of the species intact. By retaining all the variations within itself, the species undergoes a tremendous broadening of skills. In the animal kingdom, by contrast, skills are apportioned to different species which remain narrowly specialized. The elimination of genetic-physical evolution as a mechanism of behavioral change is thus a tremendous advantage.

Human’s superior form of evolution occurs on a social rather than an individual level. “The real evolutionary unity now is not man’s mere body; it is ‘all mankind’s brains together all the extra bodily materials that come under the manipulation of their hands.’ Man’s very physical ego is expanded to encompass everything within reach of his manipulating hands, with sight of his searching eyes, and with the scope of his restless brain” (LaBarre, 1955, p.91). The fact that human evolution is radically different from animal evolution means that evolution has itself evolved; it does not follow the same form across all species (Dewart, Evolution and Consciousness, pp. 174-183).

Psychological and anatomical phenomena stand in quite different relationships to genes. Whereas anatomical phenomena are the product of genes interacting with the environment (Lewontin, Human Diversity), psychological phenomena are functionally autonomous of genetic determination. While genotypes restrict the norm of reaction of anatomical traits that is possible in different environments, genotypes do not restrict the norm of reaction of psychological phenomena. Social cooperation, technology, and consciousness enable any “normal” human genotype (i.e., any genotype within normal limits that is not diagnostically defective) to culminate in a virtually unlimited range of activity.

Mediated activity actually controls genetic determination of anatomical characteristics to a considerable extent. We consciously decide which genotypes to propagate by basing mating practices on esthetic and other social values. Our medical treatments contravene nature and save the lives of individuals with detrimental genetic mutations, allowing them to reproduce and propagate the malevolent genes. Genetic engineering even opens up the ability to directly manipulate the genes themselves. Explaining the social selection of genotypes, Dobzhansky (1964, p. 96) said, “Since evolution consists essentially of responses of the species genotype to challenges of the environment, and since man’s environment is chiefly that shaped by his culture, it seems to follow that human biological evolution must be directed mainly by culture.” The laws of evolution which created man continue to operate in the sense that genetic mutations are selected or de-selected to propagate or eliminate physical characteristics; however, control over the laws shifts from blind adaptation via natural selection to conscious human selection. Control has shifted from lower processes determining higher ones (“bottom-up”) to higher processes determining lower ones (“top-down”). Darwinian evolution is now dialectically controlled by the human species it produced.
 

Hector Papi Castillo

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Howell,

I wouldn't say I'm implying there isn't any connection between racially-unique genes and behavior, it's that it seems like the jury is still out.

This is especially evident historically where, as LaBarre, Kroeber, Leakey, Montagu, and Pannekoek have observed, cultural, mental, and technological changes have occurred over millennia without any significant corresponding genetic transformations.

It looks like the people cited are anthropologists, with the exception of Pannekoek, who is an astronomer, social revolutionary, and a Marxist theorist.

The question I have is if the way they're working isn't allowing for some substantial bias? Let's look at what you said

"...changes have occurred over millennia without any significant corresponding genetic transformations."

Where and how are they demonstrating that there have been no genetic transformations? Are they actually looking at the human genome (which was only recently mapped, and like I pointed out, is only 95% of the genome. Still got 5% unaccounted for).

Allow me to continue this train of thought, if you will.

1. If their observations of "genetic transformations" or lack thereof is based on evidence other than actual sequenced genomes, is that actually genetic transformation or instead physical manifestations of genetic transformations. Don't genetic transformations take a very long time?

2. If, however, they are correct, there haven't been any major genetic mutations, doesn't this actually leave room for the notion that these observed cultural, social, and mental changes ARE determined by the range of possibilities that X-racially-unique gene allows? In other words, it's because of racially-unique genes that the cultures developed how they did.

Read:
I am not implying that if the assumptions of aforementioned anthropologists are incorrect, based on the fact that they have little hard evidence to support their claim of "genetic transformations," or lack thereof, but it does mean that the jury is still out, and without the adequate genetic information, we can't say whether or not racially-unique genes (if there are any) determine unique ranges of behavior. I'm exploring the different roads in absence of hard evidence.

“Since evolution consists essentially of responses of the species genotype to challenges of the environment, and since man’s environment is chiefly that shaped by his culture, it seems to follow that human biological evolution must be directed mainly by culture.” The laws of evolution which created man continue to operate in the sense that genetic mutations are selected or de-selected to propagate or eliminate physical characteristics; however, control over the laws shifts from blind adaptation via natural selection to conscious human selection. Control has shifted from lower processes determining higher ones (“bottom-up”) to higher processes determining lower ones (“top-down”). Darwinian evolution is now dialectically controlled by the human species it produced.

I think this is the heart of our discussion, is it not?

Is it bottom-up or top-down "programming"?

Selective pressure certainly causes certain genes to live on, die out, or mutate, that's evolution, and I can see how socializing and culture causes the people of X environment to introduce new selective pressures that in turn cause certain genes to live on, die out, or mutate. But wouldn't that support a codependent relationship between bottom-up AND top-down programming.

In other words, how do you demonstrate the dominance of one over the other? The Dewart quote, which you seem to be supporting, explicitly says that we have a different kind of evolution now (and I come from a "consciousness precedes all" paradigm, so I'm inclined to agree). However, to conclusively demonstrate that this is an accurate way of differentiating human evolution from animal evolution, wouldn't you have to first demonstrate that there is no such thing are base, racially-unique genetic structures? Because if there are, and they have been having an effect on specific cultures (e.g., why South American civilizations worked the way they did, and why European cultures worked the way they did), that would mean that, at least in a significant way (though not necessarily dominant way), racially-unique genetic makeups DO exist and they DO have an effect on behaviors.


Cool talk.

Hector
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
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May 22, 2013
Messages
72
I'm just going to reply to Anatman. Hopefully it's not coming across as belittling or nothing, I'm getting the vibe that people are interpreting my posts as such. Really not the case, I may disagree with people, but it doesn't mean I'm thinking they're lesser or anything.

Anatman said:
It's pretty easy to tell when I'm fucking around, but often I'm half in and half out of discussions, since I've never, if ever, seen anyone genuinely be convinced by another person. The ego is too good at blocking itself from progress. Also, conversion/persuasion doesn't necessarily mean that side is right.

That's fair. I'm on the bodybuilding.com MISC from time to time, so sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. Still lulzy forum though. I'd agree that many people's egos, including mine, get in the way and few debates actually lead to someone changing their mind.


Anatman said:
I didn't say there weren't cooks on either side. I think the Pubs are as stupid as liberals, they just happen to be a little bit more right this time around. The extremism will tip on the conservative side soon enough and I'll be back to dissing on them, albeit for different reasons than my Marxist days (I used to be a walking talking quoter of the Manifesto and The German Ideology).

That's fair, I don't really know you or what you tend to communicate like, so I'd say I read your response and went "Man, this guy is singling out an issue that has more parts to it." Overall, you sound like you're giving fair play and examining factors from both sides rather than just spouting off nonsense from bias, and that's awesome, big improvement over the MISC in that department.


Anatman said:
As for proving if someone is a badass, this sounds like some debates I used to have on Debate.org long ago where we picked a team of fictional characters and argued about who would beat who. If you can guess, it was replete with bullshit, as would any discussion about why Donald Trump should henceforward be referred to as The Don, because he's awesome.

Anatman said:
You're referencing soldiers as counter-examples of awesomeness? I mean, yeah, they're badass, too, but it's a completely different kind.

Not trying to debate who's hero is better, but the point was if Trump and his team were "badass." The people I mentioned are objectively tough in the eyes of history. It'd be hard to argue they're not. However, Trump does not hold that same esteem, half of the country finds him a laughingstock, probably the furthest thing from intimidating. On one hand, you have people who almost anyone would agree are tough, and on the other you have a man who half the country wouldn't define him as such.

It's not so much "My hero is better than yours" as much as it's "I fail to see how the people you mentioned are badass, explain."


Anatman said:
He's not a good person, but he is a winner and a harbinger of the return of the douchebag Alpha male.

He's a business mogul who single-handedly destroyed every opponent in the Republican party... I don't see what's NOT awesome about The Don's rise to power. His social skills are out of this world.

I'm not going to go into this too much since it's off the topic from the OP, but I believe much of this is questionable. Keep in mind, my beliefs tend to lean right.


Anatman said:
Watching the left eat its own, watching the pseudo-intellectualization of politics crumble as people realize how retarded it is (e.g, the 60+ gender pronouns that now exist), watching the intellectuals and my fellow millennials cry the Euphrates full, and watching the resurrection of the ultra-violent alpha male society? It's better than porn.

Don't worry, I know media bias is a thing and I'd agree that the mainstream media does skew left. However, even if you are being facetious, your statements don't hold water. Trump is resurrecting the ultra-violent alpha male society? How?

Anatman said:
Regardless, even if we do find racially-unique genes, we need to know if these genes have behavioral consequences, not just immune-system ones.

http://time.com/91081/what-science-says ... -genetics/

Aha, that's funny, they go into Jews and why they're so goddamned smart. Oh, wait, the main guy being cited is an economic historian. Well, that's gone.

This really sums up my point. Howell states that I'm suggesting that human behavior is not 'racially influenced.' I don't think I said that in any responses. I'm really just saying that people who don't work in the field or are experts in the subject matter shouldn't pose arguments as if they are correct in matters of science.

Citing studies is helpful, but we also must be careful not to misinterpret them or rely on faulty ones. Feynman always talked about how hard it is to actually prove something in science. So having a bunch of unqualified people act as if it is easy doesn't help society (SJWs being an example). I never posed a thesis or anything on the original topic, I just said to Chase that there were holes in the evidence he presented and suggested to the OP an alternate route to finding his answer, it just being an option.

In the end, that's what I'm all about: finding an answer that works.



So that's another fun direction - how do you dissociate environmental/social influences from genetic behaviors - i.e., how do you, with statistical accuracy, isolate X behavior as predispositioned by Y gene? Seems like a clusterfuck to me. Gotta bring in the sociologists/psychologists, huh? I'm not the biggest fan of them tho...

Any tips, Traceur?

Never said I had the answers. If anyone's reading my responses going "You think you're so fucking smart, so what's the right answer?" I'd say they interpreted my response incorrectly. I never once claim to have the core answer here, just shedding light on how unlikely it is that certain people/groups do.


Anatman said:
Looks like we're left with "I got no fucking idea." In that case, I'm going to go with my intuition :)

Intuition is fine for making your own life choices or giving out life advice, but not so much when coming up with conclusions in a science related question. I also pointed out that many people base their intuition and gut instinct on wrong information, like the Red Pill and it's theory of alpha wolves. Intuition doesn't hold water in the scientific field and the OP's question of race, intelligence, and being created equal involves genetics, involves a scientific field where intuition alone doesn't quite work.

So in a scientific field, going "I have no fucking idea, better just give an educated guess" doesn't cut it. It's different than say, going "I don't know how to make this girl cum, better just give an educated guess."


Anatman said:
Btw, you should hangout with Howell. Your tone and they way you structure your syntax for maximum condescension is almost indistinguishable from his. You guys also take intellectual dominance very seriously (out of curiosity, how much do you value physical dominance? I'm quite literally curious).

Maximum condescension? I haven't told people they're stupid or looked down upon them, just that I disagree. U mad I'm not mad, bro? Even when referring to the OP, I said his statements were all over the board, not that he was a fucking idiot or something rude like that. I also revealed I wanted to help the OP find the answer to his question and provided suggestions for how to do so (#noSJWupinhere).

I've stated I don't agree with points made or the evidence supporting them, but if you get offended at someone saying you're wrong, there's nothing I can do for you.

Also curious where you got that I value "intellectual dominance." If anything I'm saying people shouldn't pretend to be smart. I value a guy that goes "I don't know the answer, here's a direction to somebody that might be more helpful" over someone who goes "So here's the fucking deal, I'm right, this is the answer, fuck science and all that shit, experts have been wrong before, I got it all figured out."

Would you say that's fair? Really trying to not sound like a dick here, and just trying to help the OP find an answer or at least get closer to one. Reading back it seems we agree on some of the same shit and are on the same page for the most part. Be friends, bro?
 

BlackBolt

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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With hard science, I'll trust those with Ph. D's

Race as a social construct, Michael Yudell, PhD ( a researcher in the fields of ethics, genomics and the history of public health.) and his team of scientists in Philadelphia and New York have their way, using race to categorize groups of people in biological and genetic research will be forever discontinued. http://science.sciencemag.org/content/351/6273/564

However, they also said that social scientists should continue to study race as a social construct http://www.livescience.com/53613-race-i ... tific.html

Francis Collins, then head of the National Human Genome Research Institute and now director of the National Institutes of Health, called race a “flawed” and “weak” concept and argued that science needed to move beyond race. Yet, as our paper highlights, the use of race persist in genetics, despite voices like Collins, like Craig Venter — leaders in the field of genomics — who have called on the field to move beyond it.
https://www.genome.gov/10001772/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rac ... 9b57da89ed

http://time.com/91081/what-science-says ... -genetics/

You're referencing Nicholas Wade who made claims about the genetic basis of social differences between races. Wade’s book forced a large group of leading genetics to publicly refute the idea that genetics supported such ideas. Other examples include outrageous and incorrect claims about the relationship between race, genetics and intelligence.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/book ... tance.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rac ... 9b57da89ed

What does Bill Nye the motherfucking science guy say about the subject in his book Undeniable: Evolution and the Science of Creation. REJECTS RACIAL DIVISIONS AS UNSCIENTIFIC
http://bigthink.com/words-of-wisdom/bil ... ng-as-race
http://bigthink.com/think-tank/bill-nye ... -construct
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/02/bill-ny ... e-species/

The Ford Foundation (founded by Henry and Edsel Ford) sponsored a documentary with Phd holding Biologists, Geneticists, and Sociologists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRxZJ5QQ-9Q

That's the science on the subject despite Personal beliefs
 

BlackBolt

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He's not a good person, but he is a winner and a harbinger of the return of the douchebag Alpha male.

As an aside, I FUCKING HATE Hilary Clinton and Barrack Obama is, meh. Donald Trump was revolutionary in how he ran his campaign and his approach to politics. He's a genius at rhetoric http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/donald- ... ird-trick/, excellent salesmen, and lies better than anyone I have ever seen, it is phenomenal really. Trump is definitely not a badass in my opinion. He's a pretty terrible businessmen who had 6 busines bankrupticies.. not a personal bankruptcy though, Has Over $1 Billion In Debt, Mostly Held On Wall Street and guess who just wiped out wall Street regulation (he's the bitch boy of Wall St.), not a real winner he's the male Paris Hilton whose Dad was worth 400 million dollars he inherited his money not, simply, a small loan of 1 million, he lost close to a billion dollars in 1995 in the wake of financial struggles at three Atlantic City casinos/his airline business/and purchase of Manhattan’s Plaza Hotel, he had so many terrible business ideas (Trump steaks, trump the board game, trump university, gotrump.com, trump vodka, trump magazine, etc.made a mortgage company the year before there was a mortgage crisis he's a business failure and ran a fraud university), Talked about protectionist economic policies but outsourced his own jobs to Mexico and China Bangladesh and Turkey, Went back on his word and ran away like a little bitch when he said he would debate Bernie Sanders, and tried to sue Bill Maher and the Onion over a joke and a satire article... He's a bitch boy. A social genius but a bitch boy nonetheless.

Way off topic.
 

Hector Papi Castillo

Tribal Elder
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Traceur,

Yeah, my bad, I think I misinterpreted the tone of your post. I think it's one of those "I see my own type of argumentation in your arguments" and no one likes to see someone arguing like them if they think it's on the opposite side.

On one hand, you have people who almost anyone would agree are tough, and on the other you have a man who half the country wouldn't define him as such.

I think that's because he's their enemy :D I'm sure if WWII Russians had the same mentality as current Americans do, they'd call that chick a war-criminal.

Actually, no, since she's a woman, they'd apply their magical abilities to twist morality to suit their agenda and would somehow laud her as some herald of woman's power. This is actually something that Scott Adams goes into on his blog. The conservatives have one advantage in that they police their own ranks. The liberals, however, will support their own ranks even if they're being racist, sexist, etc. They take moral relativism to a whole other level.

Everyone likes when the monster is on their side, but when you're facing him directly - you're going to demonize him all day.

Trump is resurrecting the ultra-violent alpha male society? How?

Take what you want and don't ever apologize (I meant violent as broader than physical violence; like aggressive business, but yes also physical violence).

Workers aren't doing a good job or up to snuff? Pay them less (like all those people that complained about getting stiffed by Trump).

Terrorists are using women/children as human shields? Light up the entire field (everyone hated him for that, but that's how war works sometimes; though General Mattis does object to too much collateral damage, since it creates more enemies than it eliminates).

Take what you want and fuck who you want (his entire life is a testament to that).

AMOG anyone and everyone who is beneath you if they fuck with you (a lot of the PUA community is a bit too "be a classy guy; it's a sign of elegant power," but power is power and dominance is dominance. If acting like a narcissistic douchebag works, do it. Trump literally AMOGed his way into the world's most powerful office). Conor McGregor is also a great example of how to do this effectively.

Always get the best business deal you can, even if the other person is getting screwed.

Talk about yourself incessantly, draw attention to yourself, and speak without filter.

Promote violence against those who oppose you (talking about punching his opponents, etc). What's good about this is that he doesn't pretend to be a tolerant person; he owns his violent masculinity.

In other words, it's about bringing back "toxic masculinity" as the feminists would call it. Except that dark, violent side of masculinity is exactly why America exists. We killed a fuckton of people to create our empire. If you're against violence, then empires and wealth are not going to happen. Go create a religion if you want to influence people with peace (e.g., the Buddha - and yes, Muhammad is an exception here).


Would you say that's fair? Really trying to not sound like a dick here, and just trying to help the OP find an answer or at least get closer to one. Reading back it seems we agree on some of the same shit and are on the same page for the most part. Be friends, bro?

Haha, sure. I mean, there's still an air of bullishness, but that's expected. You're a man with self-respect and you should have boundaries when you think someone (like me) as crossed into your territory.

By intellectual dominance, it doesn't always have to be "my argument wins," it's also "hey lemme come in and clean up everyone's thinking." It's like conversational judo - you're not punching people in the face, but you are controlling the flow of conversation. That's intellectual dominance and you seem quite good at it. But, I know very few people who understand that dominance is always on two levels - mental/intellectual and physical. A lot of intellectual dominant people I know would cower at the thought of an actual fight, because they have an idea of "intelligence over might," but intelligence doesn't mean shit when your skull gets bashed in. So I was actually curious if you're a guy who is like "hey let's talk about things but if that doesn't work, we can fight, too."

Seems like a strange, random question, but it's a research question, really. I have some articles I'm going to write on the main site about intelligence and its role in seduction/picking up, and one of my main criticisms of a lot of smart guys is that they think there's some transcendent value to intelligence, but that attitude is probably why they're not so good at girls.

I'm not saying you're not good with girls (you probably are; intellectual dominance CAN be sexy to women), but just curious if you also sportsssss.

What I'm saying, is do you even lift, bro? ;)

@Blackbolt

I read all of the sources you provided, and none of them answer the questions that I've asked. One of the articles even claimed how with the human genome mapped out, we know that race isn't genetic. But that's a false statement if we don't know how the entire human genome works (i.e., what genes trigger what traits/behaviors).

What I'm seeing, especially in that Times article, is that no one is sure where their logic should go. If people point to genes differences in different geographies, they say "well see, there's different races." But then the criticism in that Times article says "that ignores the effects of geography!"

But if there are different races, isn't it because the humans in that area developed FROM that geography, from the apes IN that geography?

I've yet to see anything hard that shows a strong correlation between the genes and behaviors, so people are just throwing out their intuition, something that Traceur pointed out as not-so-good science (and it's true; if you're writing a scientific paper, that doesn't fly). Sure, theorize all you want, because that's what motivates people to research further (e.g., the Higgs wasn't discovered until half a century after it was theorized), but everyone is using the most contemporary "findings" as declarative statements on how it is. that's not how science works.

Now, I'm going to read the people here, because so far, the science doesn't check out (if you can point me towards some hard-scientific articles that adequately explain the questions I raised in response to Howell, and I don't have to pay for access, I"m all for it).

It seems like, under the assumption that the science is not clear and wild conclusions are being made, that these scientists are fitting their science into their racial-guilt. Intellectuals that lean left have a savior-complex/guilt-complex and are very quick to side with the "anti-racist" side of research if it seems remotely plausible (e.g., the sociologists/anthropologists in Howell's sources - there's no hard science there showing any sort of correlation between specific genes and specific traits/behaviors).

Again, this is me reading the people doing this, because I know their type. I can't "prove" this to anyone, because it's not a hard science. Take it or leave, but it just seems like a bunch of guilty intellectuals trying to satisfy their own guilts with the race they were born into (or if they're minorities, giving credence to their victim mentalities).

Hector
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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BlackBolt: Scientists can not have a political bias when it comes to their research
>>>> BlackBolt, you have solid data, but I disagree many times, starting with the first sentence... Let's leave it that I'm simply on this planet little but longer than you, you are still IMO too idealistic (again, nothing personal). For example, the sentence you wrote is not true. It SHOULD be true, but it is not. Not all scientists are created equal, some have political bias, it can be seen in e.g. the mentioned "Climate Change"

BlackBolt: Even though at least 98% of scientists agree that climate change is happening and that it is heavily influenced if not caused by human activity

>>>> You know, this all "Climate Change" is such a crap. Climate change is happening - and has been for 4.5 billions years. Climate changes all the time. DUH! We don't have to believe it, it is very clear. We know that in the past there were hotter periods and cooler periods on Earth, in the last half a billion years there were actually 5 so called Ice Ages. On average they lasted 100,000 years, with warmer period in between, some 10,000 years. Where scientist disagree is the word "heavily" (in your sentence), because that is not so clear, and that is usually where the agenda comes, in certain wordings, in certain facts that are presented while other omitted...

* Do humans have effect on climate? Sure they do. But so do cows, trees, methane, Sun activity, Oceans and ten thousand of other things... some more and others less...

* Do humans release excess of CO2 to atmosphere by burning coal? Sure they do. But, some of the CO2 is absorbed in the ocean, ocean is sort of a buffer, it absorbs excess heat. Some of the CO2 is consumed by plants, plants simply love CO2, it is their food... The more CO2 the greener planet... Green is good, remember?

* If you look at overall level of CO2 for the past 600 Millions years (and not just in the past 600 years!), it is actually very low:
(a) Here is graph that global scientist show: https://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/kids ... proof.html (They call it proof....) Note that this graph shows only some 700,000 years. Note that CO2 today is around 400
(b) Here is graph for the past 600 Million years: http://www.greenworldtrust.org.uk/Scien ... ice-HS.htm (see the second graph from the top), it shows today's levels of CO2 (400) vs levels around 2800 when we look further to the past... According to this graph, the levels of CO2 were actually 7x higher MOST of the time in the history of Earth in comparison to today. Meaning that today's levels of CO2 are actually very low...

* Next, elevated levels of CO2 actually shield the Earth from excessive Sun's heat...

* Another thing, excess levels of CO2 actually dissipate out of atmosphere, the CO2 simply disappears from Earths atmosphere...

* Also don't forget that "Climate Change" is a 1.5 trillion dollar industry, and this is most likely where many scientists and politicians are heavily influenced. See how much money Al Gore made by propagating the 'Global Warming' and 'Climate Change'. Never mind facts that all these alarmists and scientists themselves are not doing much to minimize e.g. CO2 - they fly private planes, some own huge mansions (which consume lots of energy to keep it up), they fly to their climate change conferences (burn tons of CO2) in stead of using teleconference and so forth... There is lots of hypocrisy in this area, see El Gore ...

* Don't forget that none of the predictions of climate alarmists (such as Al Gore) came true. Which simply means that scientists have no clue what is really going on, it is like me and you predicting weather for next month. You may claim that it will be cloudy and possibly raining, and I may claim that it will be sunny. Each of us have 50% chance to be true - it will be either raining or not...

So when you look at the overall picture, it is not really that clear. Climate change is happening, and always have been - regardless of human activity. Today's levels of CO2 are rising, however the levels of CO2 were many times much higher in the past. There are also many other and very important factors contributing to Climate Change, such as methane levels and Sun activity, so it is not really clear how much do humans contribute and what significance do we really have... When we look at it from more objective point of view, it is clear that many global scientists have clear agenda, they simply omitted many important things and only selected what is convenient to convince general public. And no, I don't need links with explanations, I've already read them as well, it's the same people who keep repeating the same BS over and over. I used to even write to NASA page suggesting there there are many more factors to contribute, but in stead of replying with clear fact I only encountered personal insults from the same clowns who consider themselves scientists...

Another important thing to consider is simple reality we live in. You may for example convince me that driving hybrid cars is the best thing we can do today. And you may be 100% correct, except from your point of view only, because what if all I have is just money to purchase a car with gas engine for $10K vs expensive $25 K hybrid? What if the hybrid cars need to change expensive (5K) battery every 5 years, while the 10K car can last 15 years with minimal maintenance? What if the hybrid car itself is more efficient in CO2 emissions, true, but the overall built and construction of such vehicle actually consumes much more energy than a built of regular gas-burning car? The energy that actually produces cars like that is mostly from burning coal... There you go, all these are important to consider, not just some scientific facts...

The same way, try to convince e.g. black woman in her 40's, who was raised in poverty and is today on welfare that there is no racism. Present her the same data like here. She will probably beat you with a stick, that's if you're lucky... Which doesn't mean that you are not 100% right, it simply means that your correctness doesn't necessary fit into reality people live in...

Good thinking, but think more, and always use your own brain...
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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BlackBolt: As an aside, I FUCKING HATE Hilary Clinton and Barrack Obama is, meh. Donald Trump was revolutionary in how he ran his campaign and his approach to politics. He's a genius at rhetoric http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/donald- ... ird-trick/, excellent salesmen, and lies better than anyone I have ever seen, it is phenomenal really. Trump is definitely not a badass in my opinion.

I agree. I listen to Trump speaking, he's not the best speaker (true) but he just makes lots of common sense. There is clear logic. Obama e.g. doubled the debt, and he is still very popular. WHY??? If I double your (anyone's) debt and have nothing to show for it - will I still be popular? Some things just don't make sense at all, no mater how logical they are

The point is, I just can't figure out why so many people don't like Trump. He wants to create lots of new jobs, he wants to protect this country, he wants to get rid of 'bad people' and so forth - why is there so much resistance from democrats and liberals?
 

Howell

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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What I find particularly hilarious is that the keenest defenders of religion, are the quickest to defend pseudoscience like evolutionary psychology, filth that we would otherwise associate with "atheism". And why? Because evolutionary psychology, essentialism, 'genetic determinism', all of these things are just as superstitious as the religious phenomena they are so quick to defend.

Passively pretending there are zero ideological or moral implications from your purportedly 'amoral', 'neutral' science, which by the way is total bullshit - is the epitome of the violent passive aggressiveness that underlies relationships of power and domination. Because the fact of the matter is that, no empirical data has justified or sustained the consensus of reactionary pseudoscientific fields regarding the relationship between genes and what is the essential basis of what it means to be human, no amount of empirical evidence ALONE has sustained evolutionary psychology or scientific racism - a plethora of unknown ideological assumptions is necessary for these to be sustained and believed.

What you fail to realize is that there is nothing essential, inherent to our physiology about ANYTHING we find meaningful - this controversy is a SOCIAL one, NOT a biological, chemical, atomic, quantic one. One cannot make pretenses to some 'big other' to justify CONSCIOUS understandings of things. The variance between ideology - Communism, liberalism, fascism, has nothing to do with any purported variance in human physiology, but in thoroughly social considerations and concerns. The basis of scientific controversy surrounding these things, is social, and relates to superstitions wrought from the necessity of reproducing these social processes.

Genes are not a factor in behavior because the variance in human behavior is between humans and between humans as historical subjects, not between humans and animals. In other words, where genes are a 'distinguishing' factor in behavioral variance, they work as trivialities. But genes have nothing to do with it - for example, you may have a genetic variation that makes the taste of broccoli shitty. You will not eat broccoli. But you can't say that the gene determined why you won't eat broccoli, because the act of eating broccoli is a social choice - this medium that is human consciousness, i.e. not eating things because they do not taste pleasurable, dominates every and all biological process. For example? Why not a religion that tells you to eat that which tastes bad, for discipline or something? Biology won't account for that. So genes will only account for things that are trivialities.

It is like how having curly hair may 'account' for your identity by merit of how people treat you for having curly hair. The gene didn't account for shit, the SIGNIFICANCE is a social, historical one.

without the adequate genetic information, we can't say whether or not racially-unique genes (if there are any) determine unique ranges of behavior. I'm exploring the different roads in absence of hard evidence.

Genes (and hormones) are significant only in arbitrary ways. That is to say, when the margin becomes closer and closer, then human variance in how humans act, becomes more and more arbitrary. Hormones and genes don't "determine" ANYTHING, however, they simply can influence the outcome of phenomena which is already totally arbitrary, such as, for example, one's favorite candy, or some stupid habit/gesture you do like a tick, one that has no historical or social variational significance whatsoever. Of course hormones can influence human sexuality, BUT ONLY WITHIN THE PRE-DEFINED FRAMEWORK AND CONTEXT of an already socially established sexuality, standard of sexuality. Say that, in some society, having long fingers is gendered to be female. That you are born with longer fingers does not "determine" anything, outside of the context of how society qualifies you. So in effect, certain hormonal imbalances can influence your sexuality, how horny you are, but they don't determine the context or substrate, they merely accentuate what is already defined by the social order. Hormones, for example, can make you act more 'submissive', BUT THE VERY ACT of being submissive, is only meaningful in social terms - in a different historical context, these same hormonal imbalances can make you act in an entirely different way. There is no telling what one gene, or hormonal imbalance, would be expressed as in Tribal Afghanistan, or in the Indus River valley civilization where it is associated with something in 2017. So genes and hormones have nothing to do with human behavior, INSOFAR as that behavior is an ontological category. The true variation that is important, is variance in one's social being, one's consciousness. And anyone who knows any black people know, black people ARE a separate historical people, occupy a separate historical trajectory path from whites. Black people in other words do not share the same social being as whites, they are like a different nationality, with a different language and a different "culture" (stupid word). What it means to be black, in relation to the black man's consciousness is what is important, and this is what must be addressed before any talk of "biological differences". The same goes for any other kind of essentialism.

The notion that humans are "biological" subjects is pure superstition, because it gives "biology" a moral and ontological meaning. In other words, it's just another "theme", no different from some religious myth. In reality biology is MEANINGLESS, it is just as meaningful as a rock. It is not as though ultimately we are "biological" subjects, i.e., there is a hidden "biological need" that is controlling our behavior. That is even more stupid than the Christian notion of the soul - it is simply superstitious and wrong. Categories go like this: First the psychological, then the social, then the biological, then the chemical, then the atomic, quantic, and it goes on. Conflating the first two with the third category is just as stupid as conflating the third category with variance in the fourth: These are DIFFERENT SUBSUMING ORDERS. The biological HAS NO MEANING, an animal does not "try" to reproduce itself any more than a rock "tries" to reproduce itself (at a chemical/atomic level), it simply DOES, by merit of its existence. Meaning is a human category, so extrapolating what is human meaning (why we do things) to biological processes, which are totally meaningless, arbitrary, born from catastrophe, totally meaningless accidents, something external from the domain of our consciousness, is the highpoint of clownish philistinism.

However, to conclusively demonstrate that this is an accurate way of differentiating human evolution from animal evolution, wouldn't you have to first demonstrate that there is no such thing are base, racially-unique genetic structures?

My conception of psychology's relation to biology is a dialectical, multilevel one, roughly analogous to the relation between a television program and the television set. The physical set is indispensable for receiving the program; however, the set does not determine what the program is. The program may be satisfactory or not regardless of the tv apparatus. The principles governing the satisfactoriness of the program are qualitatively different from those governing the physical functioning of the set. The set has a threshold function in the sense that it must reach a minimum criterion of operability in order to receive the program; however, once this threshold has been crossed, the physical operation of the set has nothing to do with the program.

When people like Blackbolt say that race is a social construct they don't mean that populations don't have varying genes and resultant genetic traits according to geography, but that the way those differences in gene expression are construed into 'races' is based on social views not on genetics. Where one draws the line between races is artificial in the sense that its a social construct. In America, Barack Obama is a member of the same race as Desmund Tutu, whereas Fidel Castro and George Bush are members of different races; in Brazil, Barack Obama and Desmund Tutu are members of different races and Fidel Castro and George Bush are members of the same race. It’s not that the Americans or the Brazilians have their racial classification wrong it’s that the classification is the product of social perceptions; this is what it means when people say race is a social construct.

“Because if there are, and they have been having an effect on specific cultures (e.g., why South American civilizations worked the way they did, and why European cultures worked the way they did), that would mean that, at least in a significant way (though not necessarily dominant way), racially-unique genetic makeups DO exist and they DO have an effect on behaviors.”

Let’s take rape, then, as an example behavior that you're considering could have a genetic foundation. What would be the implications?

Saying that rape has its basis in our genetic constitution, which is by the way in scientific terms a laughably baseless assertion, changes and transforms our understanding of rape - and the understanding we have of the essential basis of rape, underlies the existence of rape. The notion that rape is an inevitability of human sexuality, is already the mainstream contention of society in general, but the notion that it is some kind of physical reflex, an instinct, based on the presence of dominant or recessive genes, is not only a scientifically unsupported and baseless assertion, it reproduces more generally the persistence of rape in society. No matter how willing one is to condemn rape, it DESENSITIZES AND TRIVIALIZES rape, subsequently, it attempts to deny true and real aspirations toward sexual emancipation. And I haven't even touched upon why the notion is amply fucking ridiculous - I mean the same clowns who talk about how "Lacan is a charlatan", talk about this shit. Lacan, who explored that dimension of sexuality which was pathological, following Freud, which referred to fantasy, desire, ALL THE COMPLEX PROCESSES OF CONSCIOUSNESS that were previously subject to scientific inquiry by psychologists are sweepingly designated and simplistically conferred some explanation. And why?

Because of the increasingly anti-democratic nature of capitalism, we no longer have to consult the intricacies of human consciousness in order to understand processes that are directly the result of it. This ossification of human behavior, into some animal category, represents the animalization of the masses, so that there is no epistemological link between the pseudoscientist who already assumes himself to be a free and rational agent, his consciousness, and that of humans in general. This represents the further exclusion of the periphreal human, from processes of power, life that concern them - it represents the decline of taking people unto themselves as all constituent parts of universal reason, it represents their alienation and animalization into blind forces of nature that need to be 'controlled' and 'manipulated' into this or that, i.e., into subjects, ultimately, who need to be REGULARLY controlled where their 'natural instincts' keep re-emerging and taking control. This notion of humans being controlled by an external force, outside of their social relations, that needs to be constantly 'kept in check' is not only a Hobbsean notion, it has its origins in the counter-enlightenment and gothic anti-democraticism best encapsulated by Anglo-Saxons like Thomas Malthus and Francis Galton.

The notion that rape is in our genes, is a pathological reflection of the underling ideology/pathology that which society approaches rape.

Much of this thread serves as an example of why evolutionary psychology is a pseudoscience, a spontaneous ideological impulse - any idiot, without an iota of familiarity with evolutionary processes, a sophisticated understanding of anthropology, the anatomical origin of homo sapiens sapeins, the time span that which this encompassed, can come to the same conclusions as an evolutionary psychologist, because this pseudoscientific tautology, this reactionary scholasticism in its practical terms is already present in the essential understanding of how ruling ideology approaches humans - the animalization of man, approaching humans in animal terms, is something Zizek more generally calls survivalism - an emphasis on our 'instincts', how well we can survive in the wild, our 'animal side', and so on. The spiritual animal kingdom is the spiritual human kingdom, today, as Zizek put it. I have gone over this numerous, numerous times already.

Homo sapien sapiens represented a breaking point away from the biological, away from 'need', and into the symbolic order, language, where all biological processes are taken over and facilitated by the social domain. When one is hungry, one does not simply 'need' food. They also register in their mind that they need food, not because they are being controlled by some biological thing, but because they are physiologically uncomfortable while hungry. Humans don't have instincts, because instincts are physical reflexes in relation to an environment - which we call an ecology. How else do you explain something as crazy as dancing, if not the purest way in which humans demonstrate the social control over their physiology, bodily movement, etc. which is totally crazy biologically speaking?
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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Howel: "Genes are not a factor in behavior"
>>> I didn't read everything so forgive me if I missed something important, or if I'm taking things out of context, but imo genes are very important. For example, a guy who is taller and has 10 points higher IQ than everyone else will be behaving differently than "average Joe"
 

Hector Papi Castillo

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Howell,

I don't know where you are getting your notions about society. Foucault? Derrida? You're using Zizek in this discussion? Dude...

Essentially all I saw in your post was "your paradigms are incorrect because they perpetuate these fallacious interpretations of society that treat people like animals" and some other Marxist and Hegelian slave/master dialectics. Arguing with you is almost literally impossible, because certain statements like this

Of course hormones can influence human sexuality, BUT ONLY WITHIN THE PRE-DEFINED FRAMEWORK AND CONTEXT of an already socially established sexuality, standard of sexuality.

What do you mean by "socially established sexuality?" I could make one statement about what you MIGHT mean about this, and if I'm wrong about guessing what you mean, we add a whole other post just clarifying what the hell you meant by that; if I'm right, then we have to debate whether or not it's true whether or not X-sexuality is actually socially established, or if that's a digression from the fact that it's socially established because that's the way our nature is pushing us to be.

Like, vaginas were made to get fucked by penises because of the biology. It's socially established because that's the way it was made...

Can there be variations to how pussies are penetrated? Fingers, tongues, objects, other pussies? Sure, but they're outliers and more or less replications of penis-in-pussy-action. E.g., why do lesbians use strap-ons?

And do guys take it up the ass? Sure, but it's just another extension of the male/female sexual dynamic. That's why you see cucks on Fetlife talking about how they want a bull to fuck their "man-pussy," or gay guys saying the same.

Many sexual dynamics stemming from a fundamental nature of reality - there is masculine energy and feminine energy.

Anyways, I pretty much only saw ideological sidestepping in your post. For someone who has numerous times accused me of making irrelevant assertions, that was a strawman the size of which I've never seen before.

As for all of your "I've already covered this" statements, my apologies, I don't keep up with all of your posts. You should write a book or get published in some academic journals so there is a specific location where I can find everything you've already codified.

Brb, gonna go be a minority cisgender heterosexual male who perpetuates the patriarchy and proverbially "fucks the world" with his physical and spiritual phallus, while also carrying around an American flag and yelling "Long live Emperor Trump!" and "Long Live Capitalism!"

#Murica

P.S. Traceur, my bad, you don't argue at all like Howell :p

Hector
 

Howell

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
189
Quit it with the pathetic attempts at trolling, Hector, and, if you're going to reply, actually address my argument head on (or at all). If all you are capable of getting out of what I said was that:

Essentially all I saw in your post was "your paradigms are incorrect because they perpetuate these fallacious interpretations of society that treat people like animals" and some other Marxist and Hegelian slave/master dialectics.

you are frankly no better than Drck, who at least had the decency to openly announce that he hasn’t even bothered to read the argument before dismissing it offhand.

The shameless philistinism here is yet again absolutely fucking shocking. You, who so innocently claim to be on the fence about whether or not you accept genetic reductionism, proceed to nitpick one point or another without even coming close to addressing the actual controversy being discussed. Please. Don’t waste my time, child.
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
1,488
Since you make it seem that I am wrong Howell, Genes are important, you are simply not correct in your above statement. You can believe what you want, people with high(etc) IQ behave differently. I'm more sure about the latest research but genes might also predispose (if not cause) people for spirituality, believe in God...
 

Hector Papi Castillo

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Messages
2,592
Your tears. They are delicious, Howell. Delicious.

When you find a girl willing to put up with you; who fits your androgenous standards of beauty; who agrees with you that the patriarchy should be overthrown; and who agrees that men and women should be equals in a relationship; give me a call.

I will be your bull.

You shall be my cuckold.

And I will ravage your woman in front of you as you prematurely spill your inadequate seed all over yourself.

I am your huckleberry, Howell.

Love,

Hector
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
Anatman said:
Traceur,

Yeah, my bad, I think I misinterpreted the tone of your post. I think it's one of those "I see my own type of argumentation in your arguments" and no one likes to see someone arguing like them if they think it's on the opposite side.


All good man, no hard feelings here.

Also a note on my reply here, I'm skipping over some of your points but it's just to make my post shorter, posts are getting long on this thread. Plus, our conversation is already off the thread topic a bit. I responded to only one of the politically oriented points. For the rest, just know I get what you're saying, and agree and disagree with parts.


Anatman said:
Actually, no, since she's a woman, they'd apply their magical abilities to twist morality to suit their agenda and would somehow laud her as some herald of woman's power. This is actually something that Scott Adams goes into on his blog. The conservatives have one advantage in that they police their own ranks. The liberals, however, will support their own ranks even if they're being racist, sexist, etc. They take moral relativism to a whole other level.

But who was Kellyanne Conway, with alternative facts, Bowling Greene, and now an Ivanka Trump plug? Hell, did you know George Bush had an email scandal like Clinton and US embassies being attacked (like Benghazi)? I don't remember Republicans decrying those incidents. Your point doesn't hold water. Both parties/political sides are corrupt team players, and this really highlights the problem with politics in this country: people find someone that supports their position (hating liberals/conservatives, hating MRAs/feminists, etc.), join the team, and then blindly defend the team through any and all blunders.

This attitude really hurt the Democrats in the election with their special treatment of Clinton, even Bernie Sanders stated as much.

It's not a healthy attitude. It's the equivalent of having a kid that shoots up a school and not denouncing their actions just because they are your kid. There's defending your own, and then there's excusing bad behavior and allowing it to continue because they are your own.


Anatman said:
Take what you want and don't ever apologize [...] In other words, it's about bringing back "toxic masculinity" as the feminists would call it.

I wrote a response to this (it's an agree and disagree situation again) but it's too long and we'd be off topic. There weren't any personal attacks or anything though, and much of it was opinion with only historic evidence, possibly biased anyways. Wanted to respond to this point specifically though to acknowledge you took the time to answer my question from before.

Anatman said:
Haha, sure. I mean, there's still an air of bullishness, but that's expected. You're a man with self-respect and you should have boundaries when you think someone (like me) as crossed into your territory.

Don't think you've crossed into my territory. There's no name calling or personal attacks, we're just talking. I think my writing just comes across that way, but it's not like I'm fuming or anything.


Anatman said:
By intellectual dominance, it doesn't always have to be "my argument wins," it's also "hey lemme come in and clean up everyone's thinking." It's like conversational judo - you're not punching people in the face, but you are controlling the flow of conversation. That's intellectual dominance and you seem quite good at it. But, I know very few people who understand that dominance is always on two levels - mental/intellectual and physical. A lot of intellectual dominant people I know would cower at the thought of an actual fight, because they have an idea of "intelligence over might," but intelligence doesn't mean shit when your skull gets bashed in. So I was actually curious if you're a guy who is like "hey let's talk about things but if that doesn't work, we can fight, too."

Anatman said:
What I'm saying, is do you even lift, bro? ;)

Fair point at the beginning.

Also to answer the question, willing to bet I'm amongst the more physically fit members here, muscle size included.

And yes, too many dudes mouth off and get scared over getting their ass kicked or seem to piss themselves over the idea of two other guys fighting when they see it. Unless there is excessive cruelty (curb stomping and shit like that) or it's a life-threatening situation (knives, guns, etc.), let people fight and be prepared to do the same if it comes down to it. As long as everybody moves on afterwards and doesn't pull any vindictive shit (kind of an honor code), then it's fine.

Obviously, guys shouldn't go inviting them, but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from repercussions. Teddy Roosevelt got shot for his beliefs, and kept on saying them in the same moment. That's my view in a summary.


Anatman said:
one of my main criticisms of a lot of smart guys is that they think there's some transcendent value to intelligence, but that attitude is probably why they're not so good at girls.

Agreed here. Plus, I always do better with girls when I act a bit more on the dumb side, goes with the whole jock thing. It's not that women are stupid so much as I think acting as if I'm smart is unrelatable, and sometimes just being smart comes across as such. It can even be alienating. In the end I get it, no likes to be looked down on, and acting this way can come across like that. Plus, when people are just wanting to fuck, I doubt anyone gives a chit how smart the other is over how attractive they are.



Anatman said:
I've yet to see anything hard that shows a strong correlation between the genes and behaviors, so people are just throwing out their intuition, something that Traceur pointed out as not-so-good science (and it's true; if you're writing a scientific paper, that doesn't fly). Sure, theorize all you want, because that's what motivates people to research further (e.g., the Higgs wasn't discovered until half a century after it was theorized), but everyone is using the most contemporary "findings" as declarative statements on how it is. that's not how science works.

Pretty much what I've been trying to say. We got off topic to politics, but in the end this is what I was trying to say. Especially that someone writing papers and surveying data is not the same as actually being in the respective scientific field doing the work.
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
1,488
Ok, I bothered to read some of your stuff Howell, I found lots of errors or misleading informations. I can't answer all of it, but at least some:

Howell: Human adaptation and survival have an entirely different basis from animals which requires a correspondingly unique genotype.
>>>> What is that mean "entirely different basis from animals"? Should we chose to accept evolution, and I assume all of us here do, we (modern humans) are descendants from animals, e.g. We and chimpanzees have the same (genetic) ancestors. Most of our genes are the same genes like animals have, except some 1-3% (don't remember the exact numbers)

Howell: "We adapt and survive through refining our technological, social, and mental mediations"
>>>> It was genetics mutations that makes us different than animals - we are smarter, we can communicate (talk), we live in complex social structure and so on. Animals can't do that because they don't have genetic predisposition (to e.g. Higher IQ or to make complex sounds such speech). Without the underlying genetics we wouldn't be different than animals.

For example, if there were no mutations of genes responsible for physical change in larynx, we wouldn't be able to produce complex sounds that we today call speech, therefore we wouldn't be able to communicate; we wouldn't be as social, we wouldn't be as intelligent, we wouldn't be able to organize ourselves agains much stronger predators.... All this genetics mutations lead later on to development of higher intelligence, abstract thoughts and so on, as well as resulting behavior...

So it is not that we were first social and therefore we developed physical structure enabling us to speak - first there is genetics mutation, then there is change of physical structure (larynx), this then leads to ability to produce complex sounds, and complex sounds lead to complex communication, better organization skills, and eventually higher intelligence... Many other species are also social but because they don't have the advanced communication they are not simply as organized and as smart as humans.... Survival of species is based on genetics changes/mutations, and not the other way.... What you wrote is backward, it doesn't make sense...

Howell: "Animal evolution via physical specialization results in the creation of entirely new species. Human’s nonbiological evolution, in contrast, leaves the biological character of the species intact"
>>>> This is the same. Animals cannot "specialize" physically unless there is underlying genetic change (mutation). Such genetic change usually occurs under severe environmental pressure, resp. during catastrophes which we call extinctions... During periods of times that we call mass extinctions, new species appear. New species appear due to genetic mutations... The other part of your sentence, "Human nonbiological evolution" doesn't make any sense, there is no such thing as nonbiological evolution... Any species cannot evolve unless there is change in genes... Our evolution as human species is no different, it is driven by underlying genetic change...

Genes are changing even in modern humans - we as species have been here only some 200,000 years. Although we are anatomically the same as our 200,000 old ancestors, our genes are slightly different. For example, more complex sounds (speech) developed only some 50-70,000 years ago, meaning it took some time for us as species to develop speech. We wouldn't be able to talk if there was no underlying physical structure that allows us to do that.... This new feature (better communication) can be correlated with advancement of tools (manual skills), weapons, trade, art, or abstract skills such as math. We have more complex brain structure than our ancestors, our various skills are way advanced. Again, this wouldn't be possible without underlying genes...

Howell: "Human’s superior form of evolution occurs on a social rather than an individual level"
>>>> You keep repeating the same... We humans cannot be as social as we are today without complex skills such as language or math, or understanding of things like morals (e.g. Don't kill other humans, don't steal,...),... All these wouldn't exist without underlying genetic mutations, and it is usually small group of people responsible for such mutation.... It is actually estimated (based on analysis of mitochondrial DNA) that ALL humans living today have one mother that lived some 200,000 years ago, look up Mitochondrial Eve... (according to others, human population was as small as 2,000 members some 70,000 years ago)

Whatever you wrote later is only based on this inaccurate assumption. Even communism, liberalism, fascism or socialism, or any complex society wouldn't be existent if we humans didn't have high IQ at first place... High IQ depends on structure of physical brain, and physical brain structure is based on underlying genes... Species that have simple brains simply cannot have high intelligence, that just doesn't make sense...

If we can use analogy for simplicity, let's compare brain to computer hardware and human IQ (and resulting behavior) to software. We cannot run sophisticated software from 2017 on computers built in 1985, we just can't do it, the old hardware is not powerful enough... We have to have hardware from 2017, the physical structure itself that allows us to run newest software.... The same way, we cannot have sophisticated human behavior and high IQ running on brains that are not complex enough to process this information, and complexity of the brain's physical structure is encoded in DNA... Once we have the underlying complex hardware though, we can load any sophisticated software on it (racism, communism, socialism, liberalism, ..., art, math, understanding difference between right and wrong and so on)....

Similarly with skin color - a person cannot have white or black skin color without underlying genes that produce certain skin pigment... people cannot be tall or short without underlying genetic expression...

Similarly with behavior - some people have, for example, genetic predisposition to certain diseases or behavior. A good example is alcohol and drug addiction. Genetic predisposition doesn't make anyone alcoholic, it is the conscious action that results in grabbing a drink and drinking. However, some people have more difficulties to stop drinking than others once they have couple drinks, they just cannot walk away from the alcohol no matter what, they get addicted very easily, the addiction eventually modifies their brain structure and so forth...

------

We can also apply genetics to seduction... If we as species lived in smaller groups for hundreds of thousands of years (and our immediate ancestors for millions of years), and in these groups one male was more dominant than others, thus he was able to impregnate the most attractive females, it is reasonable to assume that this behavior is deeply encoded in our brains.... Females are simply attracted to what we summarize under Alpha Male - strong, dominant and masculine guy...

They may not admit it consciously, they may find thousands of different explanations about social constructs, and true, we may live in very complex society - but the reality is that the underlying brain structure and emotion makes them attracted to so called Alpha Male... It is biological (genetic) attraction, it is chemicals in the brain, and not a result of social construct (as classical alpha male is physically stronger and smarter, and as a result has more dominant behavior)... We don't have to argue at all - simply become dominant, masculine and physically strong guy and judge yourself the reactions of ANY female around you. They will be very attracted to you no matter whether they consciously like it or not... it is encoded in their genes to submit to stronger, powerful male...
 

Chase

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
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Messages
6,459
Some questions I would perhaps ask to anyone arguing a hardline all/mostly genes or culture perspective:

Can you give an example of a behavior that is mostly or completely determined by your instrument of choice (whether genes or culture)? If so, can you prove to the satisfaction of most reasonable parties it is indeed your instrument of choice (genes/culture) that is responsible for this behavior?

One example I've seen here for instance is rape. We know males in all human societies engage in this behavior (especially during war), and we know males in most non-human species engage in this as well. To prove rape is embedded in the genome, can you point to a rape gene (or collections of genes that lead to the emergence of rape)?

Or to prove rape is a product of culture, can you highlight specific aspects of culture in, say, Russian, Congolese, and Afghani societies (three societies with high documented incidents of rape on both in-group and out-group members in the past hundred years) responsible for this behavior, as well as specific aspects of goose, duck, penguin, orangutan, and dolphin culture that lead to rape?

(or if you believe rape is culturally determined in humans but genetically determined in other species, or vice versa, please outline how you know this)

The problem with arguing causality is being able to back it up. Unfortunately, with genes vs. culture, most of the evidence is circumstantial, and most of the reasoning is deductive (and when it comes to deductive reasoning, just as with evolutionary psychology, it's a cinch to make our deductions match our biases. The function of logic, after all, is not truth; it is defense of one's image).

My suggestion then is to stick to noting observable patterns, and just say, "We know that X group has/does [whatever] 24% more/less/higher/lower than Y group, [citation] [citation] [citation]," and let the facts stand for themselves. (of course, even then, people are going to highlight different statistics to prove their points, and claim their opponents' statistics are not the ones we should really be looking at; so realistically, there's probably no real way to get everybody on the same page)

Anyway, where people get into the most trouble is a.) trying to explain the facts (e.g., "It's because of genes!" "It's because of culture!") and/or b.) trying to 'fix' the facts (e.g., "It's bad that X group does [whatever] 24% more than Y group," followed by either "We need to make Y group give [something] to X group to make up for cultural inequality" or "We need to get rid of X group because X group will never be like Y group due to genes").

I don't know that these differences in opinion (and 'opinion' is what this is... much as either side may be inclined to think itself the bearer of truth) will ever be resolvable, no matter how complete a picture we have of either genes OR culture. We will forever argue about who or what is to blame for the things we don't like - this is just a part of human society (deciding what's good or not good, then deciding who's to blame for what's good and what isn't).

Chase
 
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