Are there any other engineers on this site? Or any 9-5ers. Need some advice.

[Beam]

I feel like I’m at a bit of a crossroads. Now I don’t know if it’s the cause or not but I have become keenly aware of how much my job has been changing my personality. I work as an engineer – those youtube videos you see of bottles going down a conveyor with machines moving, picking and placing them, that is the field I work in, designing and programming the machines. When I get into it, I enjoy it. It’s fun. But it does not complement seduction at all. It involves sitting in front of a computer all day, with barely any interaction with anyone (I literally will not see my coworkers some days because a lot of the work is done remotely). When I do interact with them, it's in a stiff and monotone way to work through a problem, reading through technical manuals etc. When I step away from work, I am not a person I want to be. Even when I kill it, solving a hard technical problem where I should be proud of my achievement for the day, I walk away not confident, but a bit awkward and childlike, almost not knowing how to act around people. I don't feel like a man. It's telling too that on days at work where I'm not as productive and even a little checked out, I'm a lot more confident outside work. I realize now that this has always been the case. I am not naturally an awkward person. I was pretty confident as a kid, subjects that didn’t involve tech where I was around girls I was pretty cool and confident, but when it came time to smashing out technical problems it seemed so much of my brainpower got devoted to it that it didn’t leave much room for anything else, and I often got people telling me how awkward I was (this was years ago). The more responsibility I’ve been getting at work, the more prevalent this seems to be becoming again, and the harder it seems to get out of it and I wonder about how much worse it will get. I look at the older engineers around me and I don’t really want to be like them or doing what they do. This may sound silly, but when I was unemployed for 5 weeks last year I felt so much more alive when I was out talking to girls everyday. That drove the creation of my new journal. Honestly since then despite some success it has felt like my masculinity and drive has started slowly decaying since then.

More recently I have been dreaming about switching careers, getting into a job which involves being around and interacting with people, like sales, or even looking into being a PT. Jobs that complement seduction so I can be fully congruent in all aspects of my life. But that would mean a drastic pay cut. And I wonder if it’s a case of “the grass is always greener on the other side”. My job is good, it pays well, it is close to the centre of the city. But it is restrictive (I work 7:30 - 4 Monday to Friday). I worked hard to get here. But I’m realizing that just because I enjoy it doesn’t mean anything by itself – I tend to enjoy most things when I get good at them so I’m sure if I was to pick another field and work at it I would eventually enjoy it and not miss engineering at all. I’m 28 now, a couple months short of turning 29 and I feel like if I want to have my career sorted by 35 I need to seriously consider my options now.

Curious to hear other peoples perspectives on this. Particularly any other engineers who have made this work. But I’m also curious to hear from others – obviously sitting in front of a computer all day isn’t unique to engineers in the modern world – do you feel the same stiffness and awkwardness when stepping away from the computer at the end of the day? Do you have any strategies or routines you go through to regain that masculine energy to reconcile seduction with your job? Going out to talk to girls does help but lately even after three four approaches I am still feeling closed off and stiff.

Edit: And yeah starting my own company is definitely something I want to do for the flexibility more than anything, even if I would end up working many more hours. I wouldn't want it to be in my field though for the same reasons as above, and again in my mind it would involve interacting with people. Partly why becoming a PT has crossed my mind.

 

[Skjöldr]

curious about this too. what are the best career? i work as a carpenter handyman 9-5 and since im young it helps with lover frame, but what about when i turn 30? maybe start my own business i guess

 

[Train]

As an engineer, I would get my socializing done by walking away from my desk and mingling with people in different areas during breaks here and there. You don't necessarily need the job itself to be social to get your practice and experience in.

Note: my job does require coordinating with multiple people so it may be more social than your current role.

Otherwise, I was able to maintain decent charisma, social calibration, and other general social skills doing the above.

There are sales engineer roles you could look into as well. Or if you can make a lateral move to another job role (inside or outside the company) that leverages your technical skills but requires social skills. Something like a project manager or project engineer for example. Being the interface between people in your technical job type and other teams (finance, business, etc).

That stiff feeling you mention does happen while being at my desk for extended times programming excessively.

I've had success undoing the stiffness in night game where I had at least an hour straight to warm up. Something that is harder to do at work where you can't stay socializing in one spot for too long. Socializing at work is hummingbird-style for me as a result (I talk here and there to different people for short bursts).

I used to be very awkward in school. Socially I was very inadequate. What helped me was just accumulated social experiences over the years. And critical thinking to calibrate and learn from my experiences. But I gained an appreciation and desire to socialize.

In short, I would see if you can socialize with people at work as you go about your day. Ex. At line in the food court. People you bump into. Socialize anywhere and everywhere you can outside of work as well. Ex. I've gone into hour long social convos with the property manager for my apartment complex who I would go in for issues about my apartment.

Social momentum is the key to keeping stiffness at bay. The more time in between socializing, the more base stiffness/awkwardness.

Great reference article: https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-naturals-meet-girls-and-get-laid

 

[Will_V]

It sounds like a shift in direction might be what you need, especially as it's not just the lack of socialization but you've mentioned that you don't feel accomplished solving a difficult problem at your job, and you dislike the way that people are who are further along the track compared to you. It sounds like the job itself is not leading anywhere satisfying to you.

I would suggest though carefully developing an idea of who you want to be, rather than just going on whims and fancies. For example, if you feel very satisfied solving a problem that has a direct impact on another person (like PT) then programming conveyors won't satisfy you in the long run. What makes you want to get out of bed in the morning? What is it that you do that 'time flies by' and you sort of wake up at some point and realize the world exists? What hobbies do you wish you had more time for that tell you something about what really satisfies you?

I'm a programmer and writer (used to do freelance writing but I found I really only enjoy it when it's for myself or on my own initiative). In fact I don't enjoy programming much just for the sake of it, I just like the fact that I can build things with it. I have my own business with game development tools as well as building my own game, and it suits because it has aspects of creativity (which is something I need) as well as logic, and although game dev isn't something I want to do for the rest of my life, what I do now really is something I enjoy and would find difficult to replace in terms of my affinity for it.

I also suggest trying a personality test like Myers Briggs, it might tell you a lot about yourself. Mine is INTJ, so I know I'm not going to be happy unless I have a lot of control over my life and what I am doing. Business and entrepreneurship is the main course I can envision myself being satisfied on, I really don't have any interest in a 9-5 job of any kind, so after my game is done I'll try some other business ideas and see where they lead.

 

[Kvothe]

Meditation before going out helps me. Removing tension from the body and maintaining healthy habits (eating right, good supplements, working out) make warming up almost trivial.

 

[Skills]

Obviously the guys that could do best in seduction are in self employment situations or sales or some type of position of authority or some lover profession(DJ. Bouncer, promoter, tourism industry).. but why don't you join some type of interacting with people after work activities that compliment seduction such as:

- martial arts class (if women plus martial arts capoeira)
-dance class
- group work out class such as crossfit or even better orange theory
-acting or comedy classes

Or just go out constantly 3 times a week, first day out will be the hardest, the other 2 you will be fine...

This seems to me like an excuse, but if you hate your job, do explore other careers... but many dudes like carousel, tank etc... and more in stem type professions.

 

[Starboy]

I work a retail job which is practically a 9-5. Same routine,same tasks everytime I go to work,same monotonous expectations,same female authority figure who can't handle power and same lack of desire to be there everyday. I feel like my drive and ambition gets leeched the more i'm there.

I'm surrounded by other low ambitious,low intelligence,weak, lazy guys.
Their leasurely activities consists of playing videogames,scrolling thru social media,watching shows and smoking weed and other basic shit. Also i'm working in a female heavy environment which has too many politically correct and feminist vibes.

So imagine a guy who's identity, core beliefs,principles and practices is the complete antithesis of his job and he's commuting there 4 to 5 days a week. It's tough and I feel like an imposter in among us.

I want to leave,but I don't have the courage to leave behind something familiar and simple. I could quit or just let myself get fired and collect unemployment. I just hate job searching it's just as assymetric returns as cold approaching.

The positive is there is always the opportunity to practice socializing and being charismatic with other young people. There are also some attractive employees who and customers who come into the store. There was one girl with nice curves in a sundress who was checking me out and went to me for help and I wanted to spit game so bad,but no balls to do it while working lol.

So I can relate to you feeling like your environment wears down on you as a man and altering your personality. At least you can support yourself as a engineer. I work this job I dislike and still can't live on my own so no logistics(cry).

Know that you are not your environment. You are just you and who you want to be.

 

[ulrich]

I am an engineer and made the switch to sales 7 years ago.
Honestly, my life has been much better quality wise and I would not have progressed as much in seduction if I hadn’t.

A sales job is an amazing position to increase your socialization, kill your approach anxiety and develop your charisma.

On the other hand, engineering sales is rather tricky and many times you can’t make the sale even if you’re the best salesman around because these are big projects for big companies and there are just too many variables outside of your control.
Also, in most engineering sales jobs you will still deal mostly with men (charismatic and powerful men, though).

While I am happier and more accomplished, I can’t stop thinking that I could be earning more money if I had specialized in some kind of engineering design instead.
So yeah… I sacrificed potential earnings for quality of life, personal growth and socialization.
Something to consider.

I guess it boils down to… are you willing to pay to learn these skills?

 

[Toby2030]

I think something very important to note here is that you shouldn't let your career define you. Besides studying, I do a lot of technical work in front of my computer without much contact with others because of the way my business is structured. By itself, I do not talk to many people every single day when working but I earn sufficient money so I can do whatever I want in my freetime. If you don't have a very social job, it's about prioritizing having a very rich social life outside of your job. The setup just have to be a bit different than it would if you were a bartender or worked with tourism.

 

[Beam]

Really appreciate all the quick and in-depth responses guys.

Looking back, I wrote this on a particular day where I was head down all day not talking to anyone else since the pressure was on to commission a working system. So more than my usual amount of brainpower was devoted to the task and less to socializing. Most of the time it is pretty chill. I think that if I incorporated a daily work ritual to keep me in a loud, dominant, social state, it would help. I also don’t speak to my coworkers as much as I should, and when I do my voice reverts to a softer, less dominant state. That being said, I still want to consider alternative career paths to make this whole process easier.

Train:

I work in a sort of startup environment with at max 3 other people in the whole office at any one time, others are offsite. The other guys I work with a very blue collar (like to have a drink etc). They are fun but I don’t to them as much as I should – I find it very difficult to relate to them on anything outside of work (which I am also not super passionate about like they am – meaning that on my lunch break I do not want to talk about work under any circumstances). On being a project manager – do they really have a much better time? It seems most of the project managers I run into are generally overloaded, stressed and as a result sometimes a bit awkward – the opposite of what I want to be – I am afraid the same would happen to me.

Kvothe:

I’ve actually started meditating more in the last couple of weeks. I haven’t seen the positive effects too much yet (generally the state of calm only lasts a few minutes before the chaos of life makes me forget all about it) but maybe I am not doing it properly or it’s just a matter of doing it more consistently…

Will V:

Agreed. I have invested so many years into engineering that I am not going to leave anything based on a whim without careful consideration, and without having a plan to return if I need to. Years ago I did the Myers Briggs – it turned out I was an INTJ too. Similar to you, I also feel trapped by the 9-5 as well.

Didn’t know you were into programming and game dev – I used to do a bit of that and like you I like what you can build with it rather than for the sake of it.

Skills:

I actually started taking dance classes not long ago – and I was planning on taking up Krav Maga but didn’t want to bite off more than I could chew.

I have been going out multiple times a week but it has been in a low energy state (which I attributed to my job) and as a result I have not been having much success lately - I think what I need is a ritual of some sort to make my mind remember the state I want to be in. Dancing helps with this – getting out of my mind and into my body. Gym too.

Starboy:

Do you have an idea of what you eventually want to do?

Uriel:

The older I get the more I feel willing to sacrifice some earnings, absolutely. My relationship with money is not what it used to be – before I wanted to save as much money as possible – now I am willing to overinvest in myself (adding up the amount I have spent on seduction, including programs, fashion, going out etc is easily in the 1000s right now). If your life is much better now, what do you feel you are missing out on now in particular by not having the higher earnings?

DML:

I don’t let it define me, but I feel like it does affect me. I feel like one of the biggest limitations I feel is not even related to my original post but to the rigid schedule – not being able to stay out on weekdays because of having to get up early for work. Even prioritizing having a rich social life, this limitation is a big one. I feel my focus needs to be on a career with flexible hours or working towards starting my own business. Something I need to think about some more.

 

[Train]

Train:

I work in a sort of startup environment with at max 3 other people in the whole office at any one time, others are offsite. The other guys I work with a very blue collar (like to have a drink etc). They are fun but I don’t to them as much as I should – I find it very difficult to relate to them on anything outside of work (which I am also not super passionate about like they am – meaning that on my lunch break I do not want to talk about work under any circumstances). On being a project manager – do they really have a much better time? It seems most of the project managers I run into are generally overloaded, stressed and as a result sometimes a bit awkward – the opposite of what I want to be – I am afraid the same would happen to me.

Oh I see, I was imagining a bigger company with more employees. It does sound like my strategy wouldn't work. I have dozens of people in my immediate area to talk to so it's more varied.

As for the project manager roles, I'd say it depends on the industry, company, and even specific team in that company. Ex. The project engineers in my company are usually always overloaded but YMMV.

In my experience/opinion, a job with no strict deadlines and a big team should be easier to coast and not be overloaded (my situation). Less of a spotlight on you. It may be harder to ger visibility for promotions.

I'd say see if you can't get your socializing practice outside of work through social circles, as you do chores, lunch hour, etc. Basically do the mingling off-hours whenever you see an opportunity you like.

If that doesn't work, then see if you can get a more social role at your startup (if the work would keep you engaged still). Perhaps something where you interface with the customer via sales. There are engineers in my company who are always on the go in meetings for example, so they're constantly socializing (about work though).

And if you still feel the need to change jobs, I'd look at a bigger company. More opportunities to be social but it would really depend on the job role, team, etc. A bigger company may have a dedicated person who interfaces between engineers in your role and some other team. I've heard startups tend to have few personnel wear multiple hats (i.e roles) so there aren't as many dedicated teams for different aspects of the business.

 

[focus]

While I am happier and more accomplished, I can’t stop thinking that I could be earning more money if I had specialized in some kind of engineering design instead.
So yeah… I sacrificed potential earnings for quality of life, personal growth and socialization.
Something to consider.

That's interesting, from what I had heard tech sales (particularly selling enterprise SaaS) had a pretty high earning potential, on par with and sometimes above the tech people themselves. Is it type of engineering sales you're in? Or do you think it's just a pretty rare thing overall to find yourself in that position?

 

[Skills]

Really appreciate all the quick and in-depth responses guys.

Looking back, I wrote this on a particular day where I was head down all day not talking to anyone else since the pressure was on to commission a working system. So more than my usual amount of brainpower was devoted to the task and less to socializing. Most of the time it is pretty chill. I think that if I incorporated a daily work ritual to keep me in a loud, dominant, social state, it would help. I also don’t speak to my coworkers as much as I should, and when I do my voice reverts to a softer, less dominant state. That being said, I still want to consider alternative career paths to make this whole process easier.

Train:

I work in a sort of startup environment with at max 3 other people in the whole office at any one time, others are offsite. The other guys I work with a very blue collar (like to have a drink etc). They are fun but I don’t to them as much as I should – I find it very difficult to relate to them on anything outside of work (which I am also not super passionate about like they am – meaning that on my lunch break I do not want to talk about work under any circumstances). On being a project manager – do they really have a much better time? It seems most of the project managers I run into are generally overloaded, stressed and as a result sometimes a bit awkward – the opposite of what I want to be – I am afraid the same would happen to me.

Kvothe:

I’ve actually started meditating more in the last couple of weeks. I haven’t seen the positive effects too much yet (generally the state of calm only lasts a few minutes before the chaos of life makes me forget all about it) but maybe I am not doing it properly or it’s just a matter of doing it more consistently…

Will V:

Agreed. I have invested so many years into engineering that I am not going to leave anything based on a whim without careful consideration, and without having a plan to return if I need to. Years ago I did the Myers Briggs – it turned out I was an INTJ too. Similar to you, I also feel trapped by the 9-5 as well.

Didn’t know you were into programming and game dev – I used to do a bit of that and like you I like what you can build with it rather than for the sake of it.

Skills:

I actually started taking dance classes not long ago – and I was planning on taking up Krav Maga but didn’t want to bite off more than I could chew.

I have been going out multiple times a week but it has been in a low energy state (which I attributed to my job) and as a result I have not been having much success lately - I think what I need is a ritual of some sort to make my mind remember the state I want to be in. Dancing helps with this – getting out of my mind and into my body. Gym too.

Starboy:

Do you have an idea of what you eventually want to do?

Uriel:

The older I get the more I feel willing to sacrifice some earnings, absolutely. My relationship with money is not what it used to be – before I wanted to save as much money as possible – now I am willing to overinvest in myself (adding up the amount I have spent on seduction, including programs, fashion, going out etc is easily in the 1000s right now). If your life is much better now, what do you feel you are missing out on now in particular by not having the higher earnings?

DML:

I don’t let it define me, but I feel like it does affect me. I feel like one of the biggest limitations I feel is not even related to my original post but to the rigid schedule – not being able to stay out on weekdays because of having to get up early for work. Even prioritizing having a rich social life, this limitation is a big one. I feel my focus needs to be on a career with flexible hours or working towards starting my own business. Something I need to think about some more.

I forgot to ask you do you have female friends not to be confused with friendzoned beam placed girls, that you talk to on the phone, i have couple of female friends and exes i talk to regularly....

also bean i am in sales so i talk to people pretty much all day long, and though the skillset help, the last thing i want after dealing and influencing people all day is to talk to women, this if i think about it is another reason why my game is mainly physical (i am really good at opening and hooking and influencing women, but most time i rather not do this due to the profession), my point is there are 2 sides of the coin...

imagine you come home from engeneering all day, and to pick up women you need to show case how you do engeneering all day?

 

[Train]

also bean i am in sales so i talk to people pretty much all day long, and though the skillset help, the last thing i want after dealing and influencing people all day is to talk to women, this if i think about it is another reason why my game is mainly physical (i am really good at opening and hooking and influencing women, but most time i rather not do this due to the profession), my point is there are 2 sides of the coin...

imagine you come home from engeneering all day, and to pick up women you need to show case how you do engeneering all day?

That's a good point. On the other side of this situation, I've heard a programmer say that the last thing he wants to do after work is program.

 

[ulrich]

If your life is much better now, what do you feel you are missing out on now in particular by not having the higher earnings?

That’s a great question @Beam.
Personally, I have always dreamed of saving enough money and invest it or have a business that yields mostly passive income so I can retire early and do fun non-profitable stuff.
I’ve tried several ventures in the last ten years but still I had not found a winner.

If I had more money, I would be closer to that goal.

Perhaps it’s nothing to be ashamed of and something normal for ambitious men… you may have a different relationship with money.
I guess it’s something personal for me.

That's interesting, from what I had heard tech sales (particularly selling enterprise SaaS) had a pretty high earning potential, on par with and sometimes above the tech people themselves. Is it type of engineering sales you're in? Or do you think it's just a pretty rare thing overall to find yourself in that position?

@focus

Actually you are right, I totally forgot SaaS as I was writing my post.
SaaS could be pretty profitable and is very consistent. That could be a great option.
(Only drawback I can think is you have to grind a lot because it’s volume based but it works).

I have been mostly involved in electronic components and manufacturing programs sales.
Those are more long term, relationship and economy driven, and not so much under your direct control.
So yes… two very different things.

SaaS could be interesting and profitable.
Actually check this page, this is a site for high paying remote jobs (most of them are software and SaaS sales).
Applying is a pain in the ass but the openings are pretty pretty interesting.

Current Openings | Crossover

Think you’ve got what it takes?

www.crossover.com

 

[Beam]

I forgot to ask you do you have female friends not to be confused with friendzoned beam placed girls, that you talk to on the phone, i have couple of female friends and exes i talk to regularly....

also bean i am in sales so i talk to people pretty much all day long, and though the skillset help, the last thing i want after dealing and influencing people all day is to talk to women, this if i think about it is another reason why my game is mainly physical (i am really good at opening and hooking and influencing women, but most time i rather not do this due to the profession), my point is there are 2 sides of the coin...

imagine you come home from engeneering all day, and to pick up women you need to show case how you do engeneering all day?

I don't really have many female friends. I have a few but we don't talk that often and when we do they are with their boyfriends.. I have started getting into dance so I plan on changing this.

You bring up a good point - I never considered the fact that if you did sales for a living you wouldn't want to do it outside work. I get excited by the prospect of something I learn at work directly influencing my success with women but the grass is always greener on the other side.

I stopped all engineering related hobbies outside work once I got into this technical role...

 

[Beam]

That’s a great question @Beam.
Personally, I have always dreamed of saving enough money and invest it or have a business that yields mostly passive income so I can retire early and do fun non-profitable stuff.
I’ve tried several ventures in the last ten years but still I had not found a winner.

If I had more money, I would be closer to that goal.

Perhaps it’s nothing to be ashamed of and something normal for ambitious men… you may have a different relationship with money.
I guess it’s something personal for me.

I would say that I am pretty irresponsible with money right now. I used to save a lot, but ever since moving to a big city I have just been using it to invest in my lifestyle (gym, music, seduction etc) without really putting much thought into the future and as a result have not been saving too much... I feel like at some point, like I ignored women when I was younger and now am regretting it, I may start coming to regret not saving more right now since it is not where my priorities lie... On the other hand the experiences I have had so far which have been made possible because of the money I have earned and spent I wouldn't trade for the world...