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Botticelli

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
1,563
This tale moves through Groningen, Netherlands, and Saint Petersburg, Russia, before arriving at the most recent iteration in Istanbul, Türkiye, close to the present day. While the majority of the action takes place within the past six months, I give the background upfront, starting over five years ago, as this is when the foundation of our interaction was laid. I appreciate any guidance as to how to take this forward, especially from the more experienced members of the community, because my relations with the lady have a tendency to stall, as I'm never quite sure what to do next. And if there is nothing to be done, I can still learn from others' commentary.

What makes this case exceptionally difficult is that this girl, I have discovered, has a very assertive and self-confident personality, and I, being accustomed to dating more submissive women, find it difficult to maintain a leading frame, as I feel she is almost trying to usurp the male role.

The subject is a petite Russian lady, now 25, at the beginning of the story 19 (though I didn't know it at the time: she comes across as very mature). We'll call her Botticelli, as she possesses the curly fair hair and gentle curves of the women depicted by the Italian Renaissance painter of that name. She is a lawyer, with a sharp intellect and a sharper tongue. She takes care of herself; at her leanest, she has a six-pack, and even at her curviest this miniature girl still has a tiny waist.

Part One: The Netherlands, December 2018

It was over five years ago now when, in mid-December, I first met Botticelli. We had matched on Tinder, and swiftly moved off that platform to continue our communication on WhatsApp. (Translated from the original Russian.)

M: Hi Botticelli, this is Marty
B: :)
M: I will try to be in The Hague for 13:30
M: Or Rotterdam, if you prefer
M: We'll be in touch in the morning
M: As I understand it, you plan to go in any case for tourism.
B: Okay
M: I am looking at your photographs. You have very fine features. I find you outwardly attractive.
B: :)

The next morning (readers familiar with Eastern European women will know that the single close-parenthesis indicates a shorthand smiley emoticon):

M: Hi Botticelli. What's the plan? The Hague or Rotterdam? 🙂
M: I took a half-day off. 😀
B: Good morning. I just woke up ) Good )
M: That's what I figured 😉
M: The weather in both cities is fine.
B: I am looking at the buses and the timetable is inconvenient. I'm still thinking. Don't you want to come to Groningen? ) Especially since you now, miraculously, have a half-day free )
M: Okay. For you, yes.
B: Excellent )
M: I have a meeting that ends at 12:00, I will travel immediately after
M: Would you like to use the T-form? (second person singular, familiar form of address)
B: Okay, we can )
M: I should arrive at 15:15 approximately
B: Wonderful, keep me informed. Then I will meet you.
M: I am already en route, I caught the earlier train, I will arrive at 14:15! See you soon
B: I will meet you by the Christmas tree.

When I arrived, she was waiting by a huge Christmas tree in the station hall, as promised. She offered her cheek. Explaining that she was staying with friends in the Netherlands, who wanted to do boring stuff by themselves as a couple today, she led me to a café she knew in this city as yet unknown to me. We talked for an hour, maybe 90 minutes. She did most of the talking. I was on unfamiliar territory here, and didn't have good logistics. I was just thinking it was time to bounce, and wondering how to do it, when she herself said "Shall we go?" I called for the check, and we walked back through the city. It became apparent that we were heading back to the rail station, so I didn't press the point. She offered her cheek again and we parted.

In what was to become a recurring pattern for me with this girl, she left me seething on the train home, that I had taken a half-day and spent maybe 90 EUR on the round-trip ticket, for little apparent "reward", and resolved not to contact her again 😄 But that is a mercenary and unbecoming way of looking at it, as became apparent as I slowly considered the matter on the two-hour train journey. And what's more, something about her had gotten into my head. Again, this was to be a recurring pattern of conflicting views as to the future with this girl, or lack of one.

So, that evening, I fired off a text:

M: I want to come to Saint Petersburg to see you
B: Come, I'll show you the city
M: 🙂
M: I'll need to apply for a visa in advance
M: I'm off to bed 😴
B: Good night
B: Apply for one
M: Thanks for seeing me to the station. A very cool day 😘
B: I was also happy that we saw each other

And that was it, for a time. Scarcely a month after, I got into what looked like a serious relationship with another lady, which was a little stormy in the first year, but nonetheless romantic and satisfying. Throughout 2019, the other lady came to visit me frequently, or we vacationed together; in the years that followed, the frequency of her visits dropped, although the intensity was the same or stronger at times when we were together. Thus I was always in two minds as to whether I was committed or open to other opportunities, and Botticelli stuck in my mind throughout as "what might have been"—though I barely knew her.

In May 2019, I received a WhatsApp message from Botticelli again, unsolicited. The following exchange ensued:

B: Hey )
M: Hey Botticelli 😀
B: How are you? )
M: Doing great, spring is here at last, just spent the weekend in Paris, success at work. You?
B: Well done ) My congratulations 😁 How was Paris? ) I'm doing great, alternating between studies, work, and the gym :) I'm flying to Moscow for the day tomorrow. Otherwise, all is bubbling away, I like the fast pace ☺
M: I'm glad 😀 I like structure in my schedule too. I can see from your profile photo that you visit the gym regularly; as always, you're very desirable 😊 Paris is beautiful, cleaner than I expected
B: Weren't there some riots, or is it all over now? )
M: We left a day before they started, fortunately
B: You were lucky then :)
B: Do you miss me? ))
M: Not sure I understand the question? I very much enjoyed my visit to Groningen and my conversation with you!

There follows an exchange that I shan't reproduce, because she wrongly assumes that I haven't understood her Russian, and attempts to translate into (poor) English. The gist of it is that she asked whether I missed her because of my remark about her being desirable. Once this is finally sorted out, I make clear my romantic interest in her, but give an honest assessment of my situation:

M: Botticelli, you attract me as a woman very much. It so happens, however, that a serious girlfriend has appeared in my life.

At this point, she sends a message, but immediately erases it.

M: It is not yet clear whether this relationship will be successful or not.
B: I understand 😊
B: Good luck 😁
M: I am careful, since in the past there have been many disappointments
B: All will be well. The past is the past. And ahead is the bright present. (sic)
M: Yes. I can say that if a girlfriend had not appeared in my life, I would be missing you greatly. I was truly impressed that day, as you no doubt noticed.
B: All that is done is for the best. Write to me if you break up 😂 Likewise )

That last word, "likewise", really hit me.

M: That is very beautifully written, you delighted me today 😉

And the next day:

M: I have to admit that you got into my head... you are quite bewitching! wishing you a very pleasant trip to Moscow and a nice week 😚
B: 😁

About 10 days later, in early June, she reached out to me again, asking for help translating a professional phrase into English, for her mother who is a physician. I help her and we exchange a few cheerful messages.

About 6 weeks after that—we are now in late July 2019—she initiated another WhatsApp conversation, with a simple "Hey! How are you?"-type opening. We exchanged maybe 100 messages over the next couple days, about each other's health, career plans, hobbies, etc.; I sent her a couple of sound files of me playing the piano, which she appreciated; I complimented her on her profile photo, where she was wearing tight pants, and she appreciated that too, with a laugh! Then later in the conversation, she asked how my relationship was going; I told her it was generally good, but I suspected that the girl was a little irresponsible with finances, probably due to her young age, and she agreed that many girls of that age are like that (it turned out that Botticelli herself was actually 2 years younger, but as I mentioned, she came across as so mature that it didn't even occur to me). We ended the conversation on a good note.

Over the next few years, we occasionally wrote to each other, getting into similar brief exchanges, but I shan't bore the reader with the details. Finally, in March 2023 I sent her a card as an image in WhatsApp with a greeting for International Women's Day (a major holiday in Russia).

M: 8️⃣🌸 [card]
B: Hi. Thank you so much, that's very nice. I'm glad to receive congratulations from you )
M: I am glad that you liked it! I like you a lot after all; our timing was all wrong, which is why I try not to take up your time too often, but all the same, that day sticks in my memory, and I'll probably always associate Groningen with you 😄
B: That sounds very sweet 😁 Nice to hear it, but I don't think your girlfriend would appreciate it if she knew that you were writing these things to another woman 😅 and so many years have passed 😆
M: What you say is right and proper, I admit. No one is perfect, please forgive me.
B: That's okay, don't take it so seriously ) I think it is important to show consideration for others' feelings, and to be responsible for your choice )
M: You're right. The first comes naturally to me; the second always seems to require effort 😅
B: Why? ) Are you not happy in your relationship? )

An interval of two days passed. Then I explained that I had written a very detailed answer to her last question, and would send her my response if she was really interested. I emphasized that I was attracted to her as a woman, not as a source of emotional support, and was certainly not soliciting her advice, let alone seeking to burden her with my own problems; but was willing to give an honest answer to illustrate my situation and, at the least, satisfy her curiosity.

She responded in the affirmative, on the ostensible grounds that she was always eager to learn more about the male sex and what goes on in our heads; and after reading my text, she was unsurprised that I was doubtful about my situation. A couple of phrases stuck with me:

B: In my view, you don't have a relationship with her, in reality it is a holiday romance
B: I get the impression that for this woman, you and your relationship with her are not a priority

We continued in this vein for a time, but the conversation naturally tailed off, as each of us had his own matters to attend to.

Part Two: Russia, August 2023

A few months later, in July 2023, I wrote to her again, telling her that I planned to travel to Saint Petersburg in mid-August and would be happy to see her. She responded almost immediately, saying that it was hard for her to plan that far in advance, but that I should reach out closer to the time, once our respective schedules were firmer. This I did, about a week ahead of our eventual meeting. She made a reservation for us at a restaurant she recommended, and I asked her whether there were any brands of, say, scent or cosmetics currently unavailable on the Russian market that she would like me to bring. This produced an interesting response (unimportant details are omitted and replaced with an ellipsis):

B: Has anyone ever told you that you're an ideal man? 😂♥️ ... I can't imagine you looking for highlighters or lipstick 😂🙏🏻 It's very kind of you though
M: I have been told, yes ... you might be surprised what I have gone in search of for women in the past 😆😆 Out with it, at the double! A list with screenshots, brand names, colors etc., what they have in the department store I'll pick up

Due to the outbreak of collective hysteria indulged in by the Western powers in the last couple of years, it is no longer possible to fly directly from any place in the European Union to Saint Petersburg; I flew to Helsinki and took the bus from there along the Gulf of Finland coast. It was a scenic and memorable journey. I had let Botticelli know the dates I would be in the city, and our date was for my second evening there. I spent the first evening having dinner and a boat trip on the Neva River with a lady I'd met on Mamba (an Eastern European dating app which I find more navigable than Tinder); this lady even came back to my hotel room, but that is not part of this story 😄

Therefore I was gratified that Botticelli sent me an "anti-flaking text" at the end of my first day in the city, even repeating the time and location of our upcoming meeting. I assured her that I had it in my calendar and mentioned how much I had appreciated what I had seen so far of her beautiful native city.

The next evening, we showed up in the two-story restaurant almost simultaneously; the hostess had sent me upstairs to the table Botticelli had reserved for us, which was located on a raised platform on the same side of the building as the spiral stairwell, near the windows facing the street, set apart from the other tables on the floor and therefore giving a feel of spaciousness—an excellent selection. My date arrived in a stunning cobalt blue dress with a deep décolletage. She offered me her cheek and we sat next to each other on the same side of the table, on a booth-type couch, with our backs to the wall, overlooking the other diners.

After exchanging pleasantries (it was, after all, almost five years since we had last seen each other), we had a look at the menus the waiter had brought, along with placemats that contained a crossword puzzle, as part of the restaurant's 'fisheries' theme, and accompanying pencils! I handed off the contraband eyeshadow, which she popped gratefully in her purse, and other assorted goodies; after ordering, the crossword made for an excellent ice-breaker. I was obviously in a relatively disadvantaged position, as the puzzle was in her native Russian, but I was proud to solve one clue that she didn't: "Our neighbor across the Sea of Okhotsk". JAPAN, of course 😄😄

I can't remember exactly what I said, but I asked a question, and the entire tone of the conversation changed. The crosswords were put aside in a matter of seconds, she turned her body toward me with an expression of wonder in her eyes, and the words started to flow. She told me about how she had entered the legal profession because of a profound sense of fairness and justice. She told me of her childhood, and her personal diary, and a little doll she still kept, and to whom she still told all her secrets. Somehow, she volunteered the information that she was, in her own words, a 'sapiosexual', and that she couldn't become romantically interested in an unintelligent man. I realized that the first time I had met her, I had barely scratched the surface, and that there was so much more to this fascinating woman. I don't know how long we were in the 'bubble'—inside its perimeter, time seemed to be swallowed up into nothingness—but from my phone records it is apparent that I spent three and a half hours with her from meeting at the table to seeing her off at her parking spot. The 'bubble' was very much like the one I described, 10 years previously, in FR: PacificBeauty.

As I walked her to her car, she asked me about an oddity in my life history; I told her that there was a short version for acquaintances, and a long version for those I valued. I promised that I would fill her in on the whole story when we next saw each other. I was still so entranced that I almost forgot to hand back to her the Fazer Dumle Finnish candies that I had bought for her at her request and was carrying to help her; she had to remind me. She offered me her cheek again, and drove off at a startling speed that struck me as somewhat reckless.

I turned and shuffled in the general direction of my hotel. In that great city in the far north, around the summer solstice the sun barely sets; but it was August already, three quarters of an hour before midnight, and dusk had at last arrived. Still dazed, I emerged blinking into the brightly-lit Vosstaniya Square. In front of me stood a magnificent station building. Huge shining white letters atop it announced MOSKOVSKY RAIL TERMINAL. On the opposite side of the square, more than the length of a football field away, was a six-story residential building, all white stucco and Neoclassical columns and porticoes. Equally large and bright letters informed arriving rail passengers: HERO-CITY LENINGRAD. Further along, on Nevsky Prospekt, a million steps thrummed constantly on the pavement. At every intersection, the crosswalks counted down the seconds, on red just as on green, a never-ending heartbeat block after block; and the scent of this enigmatic, crazy, but incredible girl remained with me all the way.

In this reverie I eventually reached my hotel, by which time the text exchange below had begun. I will reproduce excerpts from it, because it contains clues on how she sees men and on her sexual proclivities. Where details are omitted, they have been replaced, as before, with an ellipsis (...). My hotel on the Fontanka Embankment had a lovely en suite restaurant, where breakfast was served to the guests, and where this night I sat and ordered tea before returning to my room, and continued my correspondence with this beauty, which lasted for another two hours immediately following our date.

M: Did you get home safely, Botticelli?
B: I took a roundabout route to avoid two patrol checkpoints. The traffic police wouldn't have appreciated my speed, and I don't like driving slowly ) ...
M: I noticed, when I saw you drive off 🙄 I told you to take care of yourself 😂
B: That was slow by my standards ...
M: You need a firm hand and, where necessary, punishment, it's the only way
B: I prefer to be a Mistress 😂 ...
M: Not necessarily. You will find out for yourself one day 😉
B: I've tried that, didn't like it 😂 I myself am like a punishment for a man 😂😂😂
M: I don't dare to think, your poor other suitors 😅
B: Don't pity them too soon 😂
M: ... Clearly the right guy hasn't come along yet
B: I go to Shibari kinky parties, it's not the same, I like to be in charge of the process and not just participate )
M: I'll need to Google that 😅

At this point I was starting to reconsider whether I really wanted to know this person better. Before the above exchange, which set me well and truly on edge, at the restaurant she had started telling me about her practice of standing on a bed of nails in order to improve concentration and think through problems clearly, which had made me extremely uncomfortable and forced me to change the subject. Here was a beautiful young woman, clean-cut, well-dressed, sober, clearly intelligent, highly communicative, with excellent social skills, and no apparent signs of mental illness that I could detect, suddenly out of nowhere talking about what seemed suspiciously like self-harm.

I had set it aside despite lingering doubts, but barely two hours later, in the text exchange above, she was now again alluding to extremely dubious practices, and this time harder ones to ignore, since they impacted sexual relations directly. Even leaving the squalor of it all completely aside, what exactly is one supposed to do in the bedroom as a man, if the woman wants to be a Mistress? Fight it out with her for the right to take the leading role? No thanks. What sort of a man does a Mistress even need?

So I tried, in vain, to wrest control, and scolded her for apparently texting, to my genuine concern, from behind the wheel of an automobile:

B: I want to take this opportunity to compliment you on your vocabulary and knowledge of Russian! ) Wow! )
M: Are you parked at the car wash?
B: No, I'm waiting at a stop light 😂
M: That simply won't do, you can start texting me again when you arrive at the car wash
B: Oh, please 😂😂😂 cut out the daddy impression )))
M: My mind works slowly. If I give up the father-figure role, I need to find an alternative, and that could take me several years and you won't wait that long 😄

She laughs at that. Many a true word spoken in jest: I really am struggling to find the right archetype for dating these younger women, and I have no doubt she is right that the current approach is somewhat unhealthy. In the same vein:

M: And besides, you're a treasure, and I feel responsible for your security, even if I shouldn't, objectively speaking.
B: This type of remark makes me feel like a Pomeranian left tied up outside a store, its owner concerned about its safety, while at heart I'm a Dobermann Pinscher 😂
M: A very apropos metaphor, and I appreciate you helping me to understand your feelings. But what troubles me most is that I don't know how you DO want to feel! Maybe you can drop a hint from time to time 😅😅
B: You can ask me questions by word of mouth, and receive an honest answer, but whether you're prepared to hear it is another matter.

I promised to bring it up again the next time we met face-to-face, and indeed I did not forget, raising it again six months later in Türkiye. To continue:

B: I feel like a fox terrier, compact, but nonetheless a hunter 😂
M: Ha yes! 😂😂 A very apposite comparison. But it will not bite the one who tames it 😉
B: My nature is to be the tamer, and not the beast )))
M: I don't doubt it. But in the end, I assume that you need positive containment, at least in some measure, in order to be happy. But you have plenty of time, and meanwhile you can tame others to your heart's content 😄
B: Why try to contain the storm? )
M: You know, despite the obvious incompatibility of our characters, such remarks from you don't discourage me in the least; in fact I see them as a challenge 😂😂 but I think you know that, and are doing it on purpose 😅
B: Try to calm the storm and it will redouble its force. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't need a "daddy" in a relationship ) That doesn't attract me sexually: I have a very beloved father, and that spot is, shall we say, taken. There's room in my life for a partner only )))

I am still struggling with what exactly her concept of "partner" is. There was another, lighter exchange that night worth including here:

B: No one waylaid you on the way back, I hope? )
M: 😂
B: Well, who knows? A handsome man like you could get abducted. Perhaps someone is building a harem of men 😂

It was good to get a compliment from this woman, even if it was expressed with feminine subtlety!

Part Three: Türkiye, February 2024

Over the next few months, we were occasionally in touch, but until December 2023 there was little of note in our text exchanges. That suddenly changed when she texted me out of the blue that she was in Dubai, and, if I happened to be free, I should come over and join her! Well, I didn't happen to be free at that kind of notice, in fact I had plans to visit my mother for Christmas, among other things, so I respectfully declined, but suggested that we should make plans to see each other at the earliest mutually convenient opportunity.

Over the following days we chatted quite a lot over text, and somehow we alighted on the topic of clothing, whereupon I retroactively complimented her on the cobalt blue dress she had worn to our date in Saint Petersburg last August. I have lightly edited the following exchange for clarity and brevity:

B: Haha Marty, you're up to your old tricks again )
M: Moi? So many things about you spark my curiosity.
B: For example? )
M: [lists various qualities] And to cap it all, every conversation with you creates another riddle to solve. There, you see, I've revealed to you the secret of your effect on me 😅 talk about fishing for compliments 😂😂
B: Do I have an effect on you? ) How curious )))
M: Oh that's good, I like that 😅 don't you see it? Or do you just want the pleasure of hearing it yet again? 😉 I'd rather show you, let's see what we can do when we next meet 😁
B: I guess I didn't notice, since we haven't had too many in-person meetings ) Sounds good )

I ended up sending her some flowers (after eventually overcoming the best efforts of Western payment card providers to stop me buying anything from Russian merchants), and over the next several weeks, we discussed, among other things, the location of our next meeting. Significantly, she made clear to me that while the idea of repeating my earlier visit, in a different season, and inviting her on a night out again was all well and good, it wasn't really escalatory and didn't take matters further fast enough. She believed that we would get to know each other better if we spent several days in each others' constant company, and I was inclined to agree. So after eliminating a few other possibilities for practical reasons, we settled on a trip to Türkiye. She sent me the following WhatsApp messages that I consider important in this context:

B: Listen, I want to visit lots of locations and share our impressions. The point is to communicate and do things together, not just to see the sights 😅 That is, to spend time together, as I see it
B: In essence, I regard this trip as an extended date and I would like to spend more time together )

And in the event, aside from sleeping hours and the occasional retreat to our hotel rooms to get changed, we did indeed spend the entire 5-night trip constantly in each other's company.

The testing started almost immediately after we met at Istanbul Airport. I called the cab company and described where we were standing and our appearance, to make it easier for the dispatcher to find us. When I got off the call, Botticelli remarked: "Actually, my sweater isn't green, it's mint-colored." I explained, to her giggles, that (a) English wasn't the taxi-driver's first language; (b) in his profession as taxi-driver, he was most likely unaccustomed to such subtle distinctions; (c) he was a man, ditto; (d) I use different language when complimenting a woman on her dress choices and when speaking to a male taxi-driver in an unfamiliar country; and (e) I nonetheless appreciated her bringing it to my attention.

We had planned two nights in Istanbul, two nights in Izmir including a trip to an interesting site from Classical Antiquity out-of-town, and one last night in Istanbul again before departing for home. I will spare the reader the touristic details, focusing instead on the parts of the interaction relevant to our relations. I hope that this practice will explain any discontinuity in the narrative.

The first night, after an intense conversation over dinner on the rooftop terrace of a delightful restaurant, we walked a little in Fatih before returning to our hotel in Beyoğlu. We agreed that we would exchange gifts in my hotel room. This was relatively uneventful, but I include it because of the importance attached to isolating together at a private location described extensively in many of the articles on this site. She was thrilled with the items I had bought for her, including a purse, an eau de parfum, and some make-up brushes. What I hadn't been expecting were her own gifts to me: a fine lacquer box and handmade wooden coasters, both painted in a traditional design, and a beautifully-decorated tin of delicious apple cookies, all brought with her from Russia. I kissed her goodnight on the cheek, and she returned to her own room.

The second day, we visited several tourist sites culminating with the Topkapı Palace. As we walked down a steep incline from the Haseki Sultan Complex, where the sidewalk was very narrow, vehicles were passing at quite dangerous speeds. I asked her to take the nearside, closest to the buildings, so that she would not be exposed to this hazard. She told me she preferred taking my other arm, and after some remonstration from my side, she complained with a dry smile that I "showed signs of being too controlling".

I found it difficult to tell whether she was entirely in earnest on this point. She had begun a running joke with me that "a witch and fairy differ only in mood", offering at my request several formulae for turning the one into the other, such as provision of coffee first thing in the morning, etc. Later in the vacation, I mischievously suggested that I should like to see her "witch-side", as it might excite me. At this she remarked, sardonically and in a sort of stage whisper, as if to a nonexistent bystander, "Oh look, now he's showing signs of masochism", and seeing my presumably crestfallen expression quickly followed up with "I'm just kidding". Therefore, it is quite possible that the above remark about my suspected controlling nature was also in jest.

Be that as it may, now, in the taxi ride to the next destination, the subject of controlling personalities formed a natural continuation to our conversation. Sooner or later, in a repetition of the pattern I had seen after our Saint Petersburg date, she steered the discourse in a direction I found uncomfortable. After expounding a personal theory of hers that people who struggle to exert control over their occupational lives tend to become more controlling at home, and that by contrast those who enjoy massive material success tend to want their significant other to take the reins in their personal lives—a theory, by the way, that I find highly dubious and ungrounded in real-world evidence—she returned, unbelievably, to the subject of physical restraint in the bedroom. She praised it as a means of voluntarily ceding control. I responded with great skepticism, pointing out that the process is by its very nature nonconsensual, since the victim once restrained cannot resist any undesired act. She started talking about safewords and the like, at which I expressed yet stronger skepticism; but fortunately we were "saved by the bell", as our imminent arrival at the Süleymaniye Mosque, thankfully, provided me the opportunity to cut this unproductive and frankly abhorrent discussion short. I made a joke about the irony of discussing kink while arriving at a place of worship, we both laughed, and the tension finally broke.

The last tourist destination of the day was the Topkapı Palace, a very romantic location for a two-hour stroll, and when finished we found another rooftop terrace for a late luncheon. We had a table in the corner, lit by the setting sun, and though Botticelli hadn't initially wanted to photograph herself, when I told her how beautiful she looked in the gold-red light, she took a lovely selfie, and later shared it with me, thanking me for persuading her to take it, and even started using it as her WhatsApp profile photo.

After some time apart for rest and relaxation, and then going out together to grab a late bite to eat, near midnight we agreed that Botticelli would come to my room to play a game together. She had brought with her some cards with questions that could be used to get to know a person better, by taking turns to ask and giving an honest response. Having read somewhere on this site, a very long time ago, that it is good practice to ensure there is nowhere to sit other than the bed, I placed my hand baggage on the only stool available.

Botticelli came in, exclaimed briefly that I was already in home clothes, and took a seat near the foot of the bed, while I rested against the headboard. During the game, I did invite her to come closer, if she wanted, but she declined. The game proved to be a good means of getting to know each other more deeply, and we parted on a high note.

The third day we took a domestic flight to Izmir, and after checking into our hotel rooms, Botticelli delighted me by asking whether she should curl her hair freshly for me, and even sent me a short video when it was ready as a sneak preview before we reconvened for the afternoon. We took a stroll on the beautiful Aegean Sea embankment there, as well as a boat trip to a neighboring district and back. After dinner we saw the "Ascenseur" early 20th century city elevator and the magnificent nighttime view from the upper station.

On the morning of the fourth day, while still sitting at the breakfast table, I confronted Botticelli. Her tone with me the previous evening had become tetchy—she had proposed some activities that were unrealistic given our timelines, afterward blaming me for not telling her immediately that I wasn't on board, implying that if I had been clearer she might have saved time investigating them; as well as putting me in what I saw as an embarrassing situation at one point—and I wanted to clarify matters between us. I asked her point blank what her intentions toward me were, as I felt I was being subjected to a cat-and-mouse game and was unsure of her genuine interest.

While she took exception to my criticism of her activity the previous day, she appeared to appreciate the directness of the latter question, and told me that she liked me as a man and found me attractive. She said that she was currently unattached, and that she was happy with her day-to-day life, her apartment, her profession, her pets, and wasn't looking to make a major change, but wanted a man to spend romantic time with. While she found me superficially attractive, she needed to know that we could get along with each other, hence the plan to spend several days in succession together. I was delighted to hear of her conception of a relationship that allowed space for personal lives, as it fit very much with my own current preferences. (The following day, during a conversation about each of our past romantic experiences, she added that she wasn't currently looking to get married or move in with anyone, hence her tendency to date men of my age who have already had children and would therefore more likely be okay with that setup.)

This interaction was cathartic and set the tone for a memorable, perfect day. It suddenly felt as if we were the closest of allies. We were to visit an ancient Classical site outside the city in the afternoon, and Botticelli wanted to make an offering to the Greek goddess to whom the site was a shrine, that included four candles of different colors. In the morning, we wandered the market seeking out these candles as well as some souvenirs for relatives back home. Luck seemed to be with us that day, as we found a white candle first, fairly easily, in a regular tourist store; maybe a half-hour later, a red and a blue candle in a dark, mysterious local emporium; and finally a yellow candle, of the same size and shape as the first three, at an outdoor stall with a jocular owner who seemed delighted by our custom. This gradual process, lit by winter sunshine, formed a natural crescendo that built up a close emotional connection.

After a romantic and very scenic lunch at a winter garden restaurant on the Aegean embankment, we met our car and driver at our hotel for our journey to the shrine. Botticelli's contribution to the organization of this five-night vacation had been to find and agree terms with this excellent fellow, whose wife was Russian and who therefore spoke reasonable Russian, enabling us to communicate with him easily. This provided for an interesting dynamic. The three of us chatted on and off during the journey, but the driver needed to stop for gas once on each of the outbound and return segments. In each case, while he was refueling, Botticelli and I spent a few minutes "reconnecting" one-to-one at the rest stop, and again, this feeling of being "allies" returned.

Once more, luck was on our side that day; Botticelli had wanted to make the offering to the goddess shortly before dusk (for reasons best understood by herself!)—hence our postponement of the trip until the afternoon—yet as we finally arrived at the location, we saw the caretaker leaving on his bicycle, presumably headed home, having just locked up. Our wonderful driver wound down the window and spoke with him in Turkish while we waited with anticipation. In return for my "making it worth his while", he unlocked the site again and gave us a personal tour. This caretaker, who looked only slightly less ancient than the site itself, turned out to be quite a character. It seems that honoring of this Ancient Greek goddess has become quite a trend among Russian women of a certain persuasion, and while Botticelli was busy with her candles at the altar, I discreetly led away our driver and the elderly caretaker, who had started talking loudly, so that they would not disturb her, and he showed me photos of dozens of female Russian "friends" he had made in his phone contacts, our driver rapidly translating for me through suppressed guffaws. Sure enough, he asked for Botticelli's number or Instagram or something before we left, and she told me he started bombarding her too with direct messages shortly afterward!

Back in Izmir after nightfall, the day finished as perfectly as it had begun, with dinner at a rooftop terrace restaurant overlooking the Aegean and with a magnificent view of the famous Konak Square, lit up in bright colors.

Next Steps

I would like to know how I could add a touch of romance and intimacy to our currently rather dry interactions. As far as kino is concerned, she always took my arm when we walked anywhere together, and I often rested my hand on her thigh to add closeness during intense conversations in restaurants or taxis, or put my arm around her to keep her warm on the boat; but I never touched the more intimate areas such as belly or face, let alone breasts or derrière. I don't know whether she is interested in sex, or indeed in sex with me—I know that many women have little in the way of sex drive—but it would be good to kiss, for example. She told me several times that she finds me attractive as a man, but I don't yet see evidence of her words in her actions. It would be good also to make something a little more loving happen when we are isolated alone, for example, for her to be able to rest in my arms when we played the card game with the questions would have been more gratifying.

In addition, I would like to know how better to overcome our natural differences in character so that our interactions become smoother. I notice that she sometimes breaks rapport over text, for example:

M: I like how you intentionally try to help me expand my Russian vocabulary 🥰
B: It's more that I just use the appropriate word and sometimes give a definition for the avoidance of misunderstanding :)

The above clarification seems quite unnecessary, she could have just let it ride. There are other, similar examples; perhaps she just has a pedantic personality and prefers always to tell the truth, but sometimes it feels to me that rapport is intentionally being broken.

As I mentioned at the beginning of the report, I will be extremely grateful for any words of wisdom from the more experienced members of the community, and will be happy to read everyone's comments and criticisms!

With thanks,
- Marty
 
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Marty

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I am very sorry to say that I have decided to NEXT this young lady, after several years of limited success pursuing her.

Things have been odd for the last half-year or more. She started to act up last August, when she told me that she had taken an "ascesis" from personal relations.

More recently, when I asked why she would not kiss me or return my affection, she asked me to read the book The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. I considered this an excessive demand in response to a simple question, and did not answer.

The final straw was when she asked me to donate to an animal shelter instead of sending her flowers for her birthday or March 8, Women's Day.

Men want to feel needed. I am absolutely convinced that she has a lot to offer the world as a successful attorney and psychologist. I am less sure that I have anything to offer her. If she cannot even accept a simple bouquet of flowers from me (there was no problem last year, in fact she was over the moon, especially the time when I included a stuffed toy of her favorite capybara) then she scarcely needs me, surely. She provides for all her own needs, so the only reason she might need a man is for intimacy, but apparently she doesn't like kissing either:

B: Thank you, my darling ❤️
M: I will accept in payment a kiss on the lips next time 💋 instead of turning away your head as you usually do 😉
B: Ahahah I don't like kissing at all :) You have high prices, sir :) :)
M: Not to worry, I can do many other things with my mouth 😌
B: Noted :) :)
[later]​

M: Why not, out of interest? I once knew a dentist who also didn't like it, apparently because she knew all the things that can be found in people's mouths.​
B: A large part of my family is connected with medicine in one way or other. Me too :)

...so I have nothing left to give.

Sometimes I think I am an old fool trying to get involved with women in this way, and wonder whether I shouldn't get a cat, or learn calligraphy, or something of that sort. But they are so pretty.

And sometimes they smile at me when I say something nice, or a girl might write me after months telling me she thinks of me every time she opens the perfume-bottle or uses the eyeshadow I gifted her. So there are modest rewards 😉 But it's such a pity that they almost always say "no" when I suggest doing anything more affectionate than just going on dates together.
 

Marty

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brah! jesus!
Did you have any practical and actionable advice, @Skills, or did you just want to mock my lack of success with this woman, or with women in general?

I read in your posts that you are an expert on Gen Z. This is a Gen Z girl (1999 birth): Anything I could have done differently in your view, that would have given better results?

thanks
-Marty
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake

Skills

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Did you have any practical and actionable advice, @Skills, or did you just want to mock my lack of success with this woman, or with women in general?

I read in your posts that you are an expert on Gen Z. This is a Gen Z girl (1999 birth): Anything I could have done differently in your view, that would have given better results?

thanks
-Marty
I am not an expert on gen z and your mistake have to do with your own butch basic stuff all through the interaction with the girl that was interested...
 

Marty

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all through the interaction with the girl that was interested...
You mean the girl liked me, and maybe I could even have become her lover, but I somehow screwed things up?

your mistake have to do with your own butch basic stuff all through the interaction
What are these basic-bitch mistakes you speak of, @Skills? Can you highlight them in the original report?

If I can learn from mistakes, it will give me a greater chance of success next time, which is important given the amount of time and effort needed to get to know each new girl...

Thanks again
-Marty
 

Skills

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You mean the girl liked me, and maybe I could even have become her lover, but I somehow screwed things up?

Yeah! you meet a bunch of mistakes, that is why i went Brah! and jesus! Though in fairness rusians are a huge pain in the ass, but this one was not to be honest, thought they don't like weakness, they like strong confident, dominant man more than any other demo and at times they will act like her to see how you will react and you can be dominant, but besides that you make a bunch of blunders i will show you some....
What are these basic-bitch mistakes you speak of, @Skills? Can you highlight them in the original report?

If I can learn from mistakes, it will give me a greater chance of success next time, which is important given the amount of time and effort needed to get to know each new girl...

Thanks again
-Marty
So from the start:

- complimenting her looks online

M: I am looking at your photographs. You have very fine features. I find you outwardly attractive.

^ i would not do this online at all, most online guys will agree with this....

We talked for an hour, maybe 90 minutes. She did most of the talking. I was on unfamiliar territory here, and didn't have good logistics. I was just thinking it was time to bounce, and wondering how to do it, when she herself said "Shall we go?" I called for the check, and we walked back through the city. It became apparent that we were heading back to the rail station, so I didn't press the point. She offered her cheek again and we parted.
^ this is death! first you don't want on an online date sit there an let the girl talk for 90 minutes (yes guys like to "deep dive" and let the girl talk, but you not for freaking 90 minutes in the same place, this is not how to run a date (aka first encounter) i had a post on how to run a date to lazy to look for it, you can look it my archives... also is a death sentence to not know were the date will take place or logistics, even if the girl choose the place you need to PLAN AHEAD, and ideally somehow study the territory, i personally will make sure i pick the right place and logistic to run proper date....... If the girl will choose a place i never familiar with (i would not let this happen but if it happens, i make sure somehow i research it and see what spots i can bounce to or isolate) do the same with my students.... this is crusial... But this the start of what i am saying butchering 9o minutes a girl talking is platonic friendzone land and letting her lead, specially a russian death sentence....

By the 0 to no escalation physical or verbally other than a kiss on the cheek....

In what was to become a recurring pattern for me with this girl, she left me seething on the train home, that I had taken a half-day and spent maybe 90 EUR on the round-trip ticket, for little apparent "
brah! read your own none sense...


B: Do you miss me? ))
M: Not sure I understand the question? I very much enjoyed my visit to Groningen and my conversation with you!
brah! of course i did? how about you? did you miss me? when she said yes i kind of did too, i would say where were your fingers when you did, but that would be not appropriate....

now you don't have to talk like me, but my point is at least say of course, the way responded was just a weird, unnecessary, uncalibrated, she is trying to ping and flirt and you instead of rewarding and flirting back you go into a weird autistic type answer.... the basic is to reward flirtiness, or pinging,,,, the not sure i understand the question was awkward...

M: Botticelli, you attract me as a woman very much. It so happens, however, that a serious girlfriend has appeared in my life.

horrible! too much info. how does this help you in future seductions, keep it ambiguous there was not point of this, keep her hanging like women due to men and once you break up you jump in... no point on telling women you have a girlfriend unless is a girl you don't plan to fuck...you probably tell her after the 50 th fuck if ever, "oh my bad i thought you knew or i told you"

I spent three and a half hours with her from meeting at the table to seeing her off at her parking spot.

^ brah! I will link you a post at the end... but brah!

B: I go to Shibari kinky parties, it's not the same, I like to be in charge of the process and not just participate )

This girls is into the lifestyle i think she like to be the dom role and the guy the sub, based on your interactions, i personally met couple of girls like this, but i usually flip them and sell them to be feminine, and i the dom.... I can see how this girl can be kind of annoying since she is taking a masculine role... But she was down and she kept telling you...

M: You know, despite the obvious incompatibility of our characters, such remarks from you don't discourage me in the least; in fact I see them as a challenge 😂😂 but I think you know that, and are doing it on purpose 😅
B: Try to calm the storm and it will redouble its force. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't need a "daddy" in a relationship ) That doesn't attract me sexually: I have a very beloved father, and that spot is, shall we say, taken. There's room in my life for a partner only )))
brah this girls was gaming you she wanted dick...


B: No one waylaid you on the way back, I hope? )

brah!


M: Oh that's good, I like that 😅 don't you see it? Or do you just want the pleasure of hearing it yet again? 😉 I'd rather show you, let's see what we can do when we next meet 😁
^ here you sounded like skills, i like this, sorry sounded like me so i had to quote.... excellent soft close with future projection and assuming the meet, sounded like skills junior... this is good game... finally...

but then:


I ended up sending her some flowers

brah! just lol..... can you tell me what seducer on the forum, book, blog you seen this please, oh wait! none right!

she made clear to me that while the idea of repeating my earlier visit, in a different season, and inviting her on a night out again was all well and good, it wasn't really escalatory and didn't take matters further fast enough.
^ no shit! that is the issue,

She believed that we would get to know each other better if we spent several days in each others' constant company, and I was inclined to agree. So after eliminating a few other possibilities for practical reasons, we settled on a trip to Türkiye. She sent me the following WhatsApp messages that I consider important in this context:

B: Listen, I want to visit lots of locations and share our impressions. The point is to communicate and do things together, not just to see the sights 😅 That is, to spend time together, as I see it
B: In essence, I regard this trip as an extended date and I would like to spend more time together )
^ horrible idea... and unnecessary...

in 5 years, 3 dates, and a trip of 5 dates together no dick in pussy, this is beyond afc level being honest with you... anyways, here:

here

and here

and here

and here

and this one is the most important one

^ read when you get a change those posts for "oh shit" specially the last one...
 

Marty

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Thank you so much, @Skills! 😊

That‘s exactly what I needed: for someone more experienced, especially a top-level seducer like you, to rip it apart and tell me where I slipped up. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. After all, I’m here to learn.

The report was posted over a year ago and until you wrote, no one had even responded, let alone performed a full analysis as you just did.

I’ll read through all the links you sent me, as well as reviewing the elements of your breakdown again, before I respond again if I have further questions.

Thanks again and much appreciated -Marty
 

Skills

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Thank you so much, @Skills! 😊

That‘s exactly what I needed: for someone more experienced, especially a top-level seducer like you, to rip it apart and tell me where I slipped up. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. After all, I’m here to learn.

The report was posted over a year ago and until you wrote, no one had even responded, let alone performed a full analysis as you just did.

I’ll read through all the links you sent me, as well as reviewing the elements of your breakdown again, before I respond again if I have further questions.

Thanks again and much appreciated -Marty
Yes.... Stuff like this happened to everyone....i had worst...
 

Marty

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Yes.... Stuff like this happened to everyone....i had worst...
Thanks again @Skills for this detailed breakdown. I will now acknowledge your comments point-by-point to ensure that I derive the full learning benefit—something I would normally have done before now, but I was on vacation with my "main squeeze" (the very same one you told me above not to admit to ;)).

Also, I have now had the opportunity to read through the links you sent at bottom. All of them are very good, and some are excellent, especially the last one! Once I get a chance I'll address those individually too, inline within the threads themselves where possible.

Although I find myself less interested in the young woman described in this report now than I was before, I see the whole sequence as rich in learning opportunities, thanks to your efforts to highlight my many errors.

Though in fairness rusians are a huge pain in the ass
Interesting. I read the following post some time ago:


My conclusion was that even if all the above were true, they would still be worth it ;) (Coincidentally, the girl whose photo he uses as a cover illustration looks remarkably similar to the one from this report, btw)

but this one was not to be honest
I am prepared to admit this

they like strong confident, dominant man more than any other demo and at times they will act like her to see how you will react and you can be dominant
Good to know. "Man like stone" and all that. It's my preferred role model anyways, much more respectable that the smug, cheeky type at any rate.

complimenting her looks online
Understood. This was a long time ago, the first time I had really tried online, and I didn't know the rules. Since then a couple of helpful people have corrected me on this already.

I see that you linked your "Basic Online Structure" at bottom, which I really liked and which could have helped me to frame things better with her upfront before we met up for real. I dropped online some time ago—it had generated good results for me before, but they started dropping off sharply around late 2023—but with this structure, I realize it might still be a possibility. I still prefer meeting women in person upfront, though, during the daytime when there is no social interference.

this is death! first you don't want on an online date sit there an let the girl talk for 90 minutes (yes guys like to "deep dive" and let the girl talk, but you not for freaking 90 minutes in the same place, this is not how to run a date (aka first encounter) i had a post on how to run a date to lazy to look for it, you can look it my archives... also is a death sentence to not know were the date will take place or logistics, even if the girl choose the place you need to PLAN AHEAD, and ideally somehow study the territory, i personally will make sure i pick the right place and logistic to run proper date....... If the girl will choose a place i never familiar with (i would not let this happen but if it happens, i make sure somehow i research it and see what spots i can bounce to or isolate) do the same with my students.... this is crusial... But this the start of what i am saying butchering 9o minutes a girl talking is platonic friendzone land and letting her lead, specially a russian death sentence....
Agree. She was too lazy to come to Amsterdam (to be fair it is a long additional journey, and she was already on her travels) and so I agreed last-minute to go to Groningen, but what really killed it was that she said, after we left the café, "My place? No, why would we go there?" and proceeded to see me off at the rail station.

I've had this problem since on another online date. I met a Ukrainian girl in 2022 at a Spanish restaurant literally 5 minutes' walk from my apartment. We hit it off well in the restaurant, but when I invited her back to my place, she said "What for?". Then I offered to walk her part of the way home, and the route led right past my apartment building, which I pointed out and invited her in again. She responded again, "What for?". I don't really know what the correct answer is to these questions.

In the current discussion, I think the entire 5-plus year acquaintance would have been much more productive if I had been able to isolate her that first day in Groningen, but she seemed uncooperative for some reason.

brah! read your own none sense...
I had a moment of weakness when I resented going out of my way for little or no apparent benefit, but then I realized that this was petty of me, which is why I wrote and promised to visit her in Saint Petersburg. I don't know why I shared this, I am a little ashamed of this miserly thought.

brah! of course i did? how about you? did you miss me?
Yeah I fucked this up, thanks for getting to the heart of it.

when she said yes i kind of did too, i would say where were your fingers when you did, but that would be not appropriate....
I love it!

now you don't have to talk like me
No, I love it! And I think I can adapt it to be congruent with my own character. Actually I love the humorous way you write everywhere :LOL:

my point is at least say of course, the way responded was just a weird, unnecessary, uncalibrated, she is trying to ping and flirt and you
You are quite right, I realize now.

horrible! too much info. how does this help you in future seductions, keep it ambiguous there was not point of this, keep her hanging like women due to men and once you break up you jump in...
Of course! I see that now!

you probably tell her after the 50 th fuck if ever, "oh my bad i thought you knew or i told you"
Haha this is exactly what I meant above when I said I love your humor! :ROFLMAO:

I will link you a post at the end... but brah!
The stuff from your own site, including how to structure a date, is great, thank you.

This girls is into the lifestyle i think she like to be the dom role and the guy the sub, based on your interactions, i personally met couple of girls like this, but i usually flip them and sell them to be feminine, and i the dom.... I can see how this girl can be kind of annoying since she is taking a masculine role... But she was down and she kept telling you...
Sometimes these girls throw me off when they make me feel somehow unworldly. I had a bad case of this once which I will get into in more detail when I go through your Dating Dynamics 101 post: I'll save it for that thread.

There is a lot of stuff that I don't know about that girls seem to pick up at an early age these days. I sometimes feel I am living a life totally parallel to and unconnected with the women I see about town every day.

brah this girls was gaming you she wanted dick...
How do you see this? Please teach me because I feel as if women speak an alien language and I have no idea what they are subcommunicating.

Okay, maybe this required a bit of extra explanation... there was a bit of back-and-forth in the text, and obviously I am translating it from Russian. What she was implying was that I am a handsome man, and she was joking (perhaps half-joking?) that I could get kidnapped by someone seeking good-looking men. I think it was a sort of backhanded compliment. I wasn't sure how to take it. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

here you sounded like skills, i like this, sorry sounded like me so i had to quote.... excellent soft close with future projection and assuming the meet, sounded like skills junior... this is good game... finally...
Haha thank you so much.

I was trying to be a bit flirtatious here. She was implying, to my absolute confusion, that she hadn't realized I liked her romantically (I know that you criticized my compliment in the online opener all those years back in the Netherlands, but at least it set a dynamic of man-to-woman, or so I thought). I found it incredible that this message had somehow not gotten through her thick skull after all that time, so I figured that the online communication had killed the buzz and I'd better revitalize it in person.

What I was not prepared for was her response, telling me what sort of flowers she liked, hinting that she wanted a present (my idea had been that I would touch or kiss her next time we met).

brah! just lol..... can you tell me what seducer on the forum, book, blog you seen this please, oh wait! none right!
Haha very funny, this is again what I meant when I said I love your humor 😂😂 but yeah, she threw me for a loop by introducing flowers into the equation.

Why would she do this? Wasn't it obvious what I had meant with the flirty message, or did I not spell it out clearly enough?

Why did she redirect my initially flirtatious intention to something completely different and thus sabotage it?

horrible idea... and unnecessary...
Again, I felt I was tricked into a situation where it would make it easy for me to slip up (and indeed, after the 5-day trip she did text me repeatedly pointing out all my shortcomings and how I could address them to remove any obstacles to our potential relationship). Normal women often want to "reform" a man whom they're already in a relationship with. This one seems to want to fix me first.

I felt she could have given the flower of love a chance to bloom before crushing it with the weight of all these excessive expectations.

in 5 years, 3 dates, and a trip of 5 dates together no dick in pussy, this is beyond afc level being honest with you...
@Skills, I absolutely agree. That's why I posted it. I'm not here to show off. I'm here to seek constructive criticism.

Of course it is beyond AFC. I have never claimed to be good. I've been posting on this forum for 12 years, but making very little progress because I have no idea what I am doing wrong. I've come here seeking advice, and never presumed to advise anyone else. Detailed breakdowns like yours above are gold to me, but they come very infrequently. Often I get criticism without any true indication how I can improve. I took a private lesson from Michael Chief about a month ago; he was extremely helpful and I may well take several more.

I really appreciate the time you took to help me here, @Skills, and I will see you in the comment section of the other threads you posted. The last one, in particular, from "Irish Asshole", was transformational to my thinking.
 

Skills

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Russian women in my opinion the hardest from any nationality, i agree with bd on this one... And i have the same picture as well in my post lmao, read the story is with a russian, i fucked up too...

 

Marty

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I went on another date with this lady in late June.

By filing this report, I am hoping that some of you gentlemen may be able to advise me how to break out of stasis and turn this warm, but ultimately restrained, connection into something more intimate. I appreciate that women don't always like to get frisky right away, but seven years seems like a long time. It's not only or even primarily about this girl; I want to learn for the future. That's why I've made the report as honest and accurate as possible. It's not about looking to impress; go ahead, rip it apart: I'm here to learn. I've put some Observations and Questions at the conclusion of the report.

And make no mistake: I am not "friend-zoned". Back in January 2024, she actually wrote to me: "No one is yet offering you friendship or the friend-zone." A couple weeks later, when we were together, one morning at breakfast in a hotel in İzmir, she explained to me: "I'm single, I'm looking for someone to be with, and I find you attractive. I suggested we take this trip together so that I could find out whether you can be that man." And a few days later, in a taxi in Istanbul, I remember how she told me about male, supposedly platonic friends she had had, who she later discovered were attracted to her as a woman, often years into their ostensible "friendship", and how she had lost all respect for them due to their concealment of their intentions. By contrast, on many occasions, I have told her explicitly that I want her. She often addresses me as "my dear" (мой родной), "my darling" (мой хороший), and "kitten" (коть).

At any rate, back to business. Every year, in the last week of June, Saint Petersburg, her home city, celebrates the Scarlet Sails event at the conclusion of the White Nights festival. In May, she reached out to me unprompted, asking me how things were with me. We chatted a little and I explained that I had let her be for the past few months, since she had expressed the need to abstain from romantic encounters as an "ascesis" to benefit her focus on other areas of life. This exchange followed (general chit-chat omitted):

B: Thank you ) that was the right decision

M: Okay, then I'll let you be, and when you desire a gallant man to bring out your emotions and other things besides, you know where to come 😉 won't you miss me? 😋

B: Hahah sounds tempting ) I'm perking up, but still not in a hurry ) I'll let you know ) Miss you? ) We're not saying good-bye 😂

So far, so good. I mentioned that I was planning another trip to Russia while my visa was still current, and was deciding what city to visit:

M: If I go to SPb, will you meet with me? I understand that I'm irresistible: I promise that I shan't tempt you too much 😄

[a lot of back-and-forth followed]

B: Maybe you can even make it for Scarlet Sails

And so it turned out. Scarlet Sails was scheduled for the last Saturday in June; I booked my trip to arrive on Wednesday. The Friday was a beautiful, sunny day, and I met with another woman, someone I had met on a dating app the last time I had visited, and we spent a marvelous day walking in the huge Tricentennial Park, seeing the Lakhta Tower, the tallest building in Europe, and dining in the evening. But that is another story. With Botticelli, we scheduled dinner for Saturday at 20:45, followed by a boat trip from 23:50 to 01:50 to see the fireworks over the Neva river.

Since I have been advised to avoid initiating a "nice, friendly, low pressure chat" in the past, I decided I needed to preemptively set the right tone. I had dug out this extremely interesting article about a so-called "lady drawer", and decided to put the advice there to good use, not only by preparing everything, but by telling her about it:

M: [photo of kit] As you rightly said, we'll be crazy tired by two or three in the morning. By the way, I put together this little kit of new, sealed, women's necessities, which I will keep in my hotel room in case a certain someone gets tired after the boat trip and doesn't want to drive home; I say that without any expectations, naturally.

B: Marty, wow! That's incredibly kind and caring )

I figured that this was a tasteful way to let her know, in case there had ever been any doubt, that I was a willing intimate partner, without being crudely descriptive.

Saturday came. Traffic is always chaotic on days when city events take place, and we had arranged for Botticelli to park at my hotel; we would then walk together the 20 minutes or so to the restaurant, and after dinner, from there to the jetty. When I exited the hotel, there was a palpable feeling of hushed anticipation in the city, as everyone prepared for the night of the Scarlet Sails: I suddenly recalled that on my only other visit during the White Nights, in 2009, the same tension in the air had been present, as this long-forgotten memory flooded back. I took a seat on a swing-set overlooking the circular park in front of the hotel and waited.

Presently, Botticelli rounded the corner. With the boat trip in mind, she had ditched the bombshell royal-blue dress and heels of our prior encounter in the city two years previously for a form-fitting pair of jeans that highlighted her rounded buttocks and impeccable waist, paired with cute sneakers for the trips on foot ahead. Her fair hair was teased and left loose and tumbled over her shoulders. Bright red lipstick completed the look. We embraced.

I had asked her what I could bring her from overseas and she, egalitarian as ever, had in turn prepared traditional Russian presents for me. We sat for a few minutes in her parked car and exchanged gifts. Then we locked them safely in the trunk and headed for the restaurant.

As we strolled arm-in-arm down the renowned Griboedov Canal Embankment, deep in conversation, I was glad of the pacing opportunity that the traffic constraints had offered. She and I always get off to a lively start, but the walk provided a natural introduction to the evening and a way to avoid any hesitation and awkward staring upon initial reunion. When we entered the restaurant, where the hotel's concierge had secured a reservation for me after some difficulty connected with the events of the evening, Botticelli was at first dissatisfied with the table offered; the hostess, who was actually very helpful, offered another, bigger one, which Botticelli was about to decline as well due to some other objection, but I overrode her and firmly thanked the hostess, who moved us. It proved to be the right decision: Botticelli and I sat on the same side on comfortably upholstered, bench-style seating, and throughout dinner we were turned toward each other and able to gesture, touch, and laugh together naturally without leaning across our food. At one point, she complimented me on my style and color choices; despite the midsummer season, it was cool at this northern latitude, and was expected to be colder still at night on the water, so I had needed to put a lot of thought into my dress and was quietly satisfied that she approved.

We skipped dessert, and as 23:00 approached, I called for the check. We dressed and left. At the entrance to the Field of Mars, streets were being closed everywhere, even to pedestrians; the police were taking no chances due to the ever-present risk of disruption of the occasion. The boatman had texted me earlier in the day asking to meet at a different jetty. Some innovativeness and collaboration was needed, but we made our way successfully through the city to the revised address, on the broadest part of the Fontanka River. Our captain phoned to let us know where to stand on the embankment, and that he would give the signal when he arrived, since there were people milling about everywhere and huge riverboats arriving and departing at the limited-capacity jetty. I haven't done much boating, but this experience was definitely a first for me: Walking across not one, but two larger tourist boats moored parallel to get to our little cutter. Despite the huge demand, everything was very well organized and we set off without incident.

I had been careful to order a boat with comfortable, padded, divan-type seating, and Botticelli settled into my embrace as we set off along the Fontanka. For security reasons, the Aquatorium of the Neva River was closed to all other than invited guests (I had inquired about restaurants and river cruises with a view within the restricted area, and the prices were totally prohibitive, far beyond my means) so we sailed in the opposite direction, the "long way around", taking in the beautiful sights on the Fontanka Embankment before emerging onto the Greater Neva near the Great Port of Saint Petersburg. We navigated to starboard, back toward the city, and slowed to a complete halt as we reached the blockade imposed by the water police. At least a hundred other boats were already present, and many others drew in behind us as the festivities approached.

The fireworks were spectacular that night. Our cutter bobbed gently, occasionally rocking more forcefully as the wake reached it from a police boat: Some revellers were evidently trying to pass the cordon periodically and were intercepted, sirens blaring—all, so far as I could tell, in a spirit of good fun! Botticelli snuggled closer to me, and we were both glad we had brought our overcoats.

When the show was over, incomprehensibly, our captain along with all the other boatmen engaged in an unseemly race to return to the canals, and we were frequently sprayed with water as one boat smacked into the huge waves generated by the dozens of others heading cityward at top speed, lifting further the mood of general hilarity! For equally unclear reasons, we were to alight on the original jetty, not at the revised location where we boarded, but this afforded us a more romantic cruise, as the longer route took us past the iconic "Au Pont Rouge" (Esders and Scheefhals building) and the adjoining Saint Isaac's Square, before pulling up at our assigned mooring on the Moika. The whole itinerary change also meant that we had a longer walk both to and from the boat, including the unique experience of crossing Nevsky Prospekt on a night when it was closed to traffic and pedestrians were walking across its full breadth.

At length we arrived at her car, which was parked by my hotel, and I retrieved the presents intended for me from her trunk: beautiful Russian hand-painted craftwork including a very tasteful napkin box that now sits on my dining-table at home. I asked her whether she would like to come up to my hotel room, but she declined as it was late and she needed to get home.

An interesting text exchange ensued. Just before 03:00, she wrote me the following:

B: It's chaos on the roads. People are not following the rules )) It's probably good that we didn't sit up late, else the drivers would be even drunker! I had a wonderful evening, thanks to you )) And a special thank you for the presents 🥰🥰🥰

When I heard that she had arrived safely, I wished her a good night. The following afternoon, after we had chatted about a few other things, I picked up the thread about "not sitting up late":

M: As for not sitting up late: The step across my threshold is open to you, but you must take it yourself. I can only invite; I don't have the right to insist and I shan't attempt to persuade. I invited you several times, both through hints and explicitly. When you wish, you will come voluntarily; the path is open to you. I desire you very much, and you know it. 😚

B: Kitten, yesterday I was very tired. I had been on my feet since the morning. Given my condition now, at night I would have been passing out—not at home, but there 🥲 Mmmm, it's so nice to hear that.

And so to my observations and questions.

Observations:
  • Boy, am I glad that I spent my youth developing myself into an interesting and successful person (the proverbial "bag"), rather than chasing girls in vain when I had nothing to offer yet. This paid off on this date and others, as it improved my listening and conversational skills, leading to a much more rewarding and pleasurable time spent with the ladies. The more intelligent commenters on this blog and others telling younger men: "Make something of yourself first" are absolutely right.
  • I have come to understand that it is essential to distinguish between what is inside my locus of control and what is outside of it. As her last text message quoted above confirmed, she'll open up when she's ready. Prematurely trying to push her is pointless, offensive, and counterproductive. I showed her a wonderful experience, and she told me she was so happy to see me again. It's up to her how she chooses to show that.
  • Human mating seems unnecessarily complex. If we look at the natural world, many animals have displays and rituals to streamline the process. I suppose the closest approximations we have in our species are the traditional practices of marriage and dowry, now largely in retreat in the developed world. Still, can it really be this difficult? Of course, there is plenty of internet gaslighting saying that yes, it can, along the lines of "There's no shortcut bro", "You just have to do the work bro", and my personal favorite: "Up your game, bro". But what on Earth did people do before specialized websites and blogs existed?
  • I keep trying with Botticelli, despite the frustrations, because I find it quite hard to meet new people—so it's important to me to maintain the connections I already have, especially with one so beautiful, so intelligent, and with so much potential at such a tender age. Yes, she's a bit bossy, but isn't that so much better than the opposite—being a total wet rag?
  • Botticelli always replies to anything I write to her, is always happy to meet with me when I propose it, and always says how happy she is to meet me, with feeling and every appearance of meaning it. And in his response quoted below, Skills says she's "interested", so with all that taken into account, surely I can't be that far off course:
    your mistake have to do with your own butch basic stuff all through the interaction with the girl that was interested...

Questions:
  • First and foremost, we have to address head-on the question of Bed. It's no use tiptoeing around it—why haven't we slept together yet? Based on what I have written, can it be resolved, and how many more dates is it likely to take? At the moment, I feel that we're play-acting a relationship without any real intimacy, which ultimately is unsatisfying. It'd be great to get expert opinion on this: I've seen some very intriguing responses, recently, to others' field reports by @Ratata and I'd love to have his take here too.
  • Can learning from this date be transferred to other attractive women, for example, those I see daily around the city?
 

gameboy

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 7, 2023
Messages
1,278
You do have the right to insist, and you should have. She will never make that decision by herself.

Also, you should have at least gone for the kiss at some point in those 7 years.

Boy, am I glad that I spent my youth developing myself into an interesting and successful person (the proverbial "bag"), rather than chasing girls in vain when I had nothing to offer yet.
This part I disagree with. I am very much glad that I started chasing (and kissing, and bedding) girls at a young age. But you do you. Anyway, none of us can change our past, so it's just as well that you are happy with yours.

And I did have something to offer at all times. The fact that you don't seem to see that even a young man has something, a lot, of value to offer to a girl, is probably the reason why you are struggling.

As her last text message quoted above confirmed, she'll open up when she's ready.
No, she won't. She is just as scared as you are to lose the platonic, but beautiful, relationship you two already have.

One question came up in my mind -- are you having sex with other girls? Or is this is a 7-year unfulfilled oneitis?

Otherwise - it's a beautiful post. It reads like it's from another century. I'm not sure if things are that different in Russia, or if it's just you (no offense!) I am a romantic myself, and I appreciate your attention to detail. But if I were in your shoes I would have been much more aggressive with that girl, circa 6.5 years ago. Or moved on.

At some point you need to let the animal in you push the hopeless romantic aside, and just take that woman already. I'm 90% sure she will fall for you if she feels that you are really going for it. But you're the man so it's your job to do it, not hers to come to you "when she is ready". Some women will do that, but if this one hasn't in 7 years, then she never will.
 
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DArtagnan

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Dec 22, 2024
Messages
76
Hey @Marty !

Here's the advice I have:

Be the tiger, not the kitten.

Moreover, there's one thing that seems way out-of-place in the whole report. Are you familiar with Girls Chase? Have you read any of the articles there? Even more generally, have you read any book or material in seduction?

In your report, you are basically breaking every rule of seduction, ones you can find in the literature:
* You are not acting fast
* You are not escalating
* You are not asking for compliance
* You are trying to be her provider, by being nice, friendly, boyfriend-like
* You are investing a lot
* You are chasing
* You are putting this girl on a pedestal

This is stricking, because then you come here to a seduction forum asking for advice. You seem open-minded, open to advice. And you seem to be an old member here. However, I guess that experienced seducers here will give you advice that matches the seduction literature. If you aren't open to what you read in the literature, then I don't see how you are open to advice given here.

Trust your instincts. Trust your gut feelings. Do you think that this girl, who is into Shibari, kinky stuff, who likes to drive fast, who has a fire inside her, a wild side, do you think she is sexually attracted to someone she calls "my dear", "my kitten"? A kitten, a baby animal, is not able to reproduce with an adult female yet, by biological definition. It's not a coincidence she is calling you that. It's symbolic.

You seem to be idealizing her like a pure and perfect Madonna. The nickname you came up for her is also a solid symbol for that: Botticelli. You are turning a real life Venus who has kinky sexual needs into an idealized, image of Madonna who is pure and innocent, just like a Botticelli painting.

I myself have had similar symbolic problems in the past. Once I crushed over a girl and started calling her "my elf". She then proceeded to call me "her hobbit". I never talked to her again. Unless I can come up to her again as a elf warrior myself, there's no point in doing that. And I've had a similar problem again recently, when I called a girl I liked "little Buddha" because she had a spiritual side, just to have her mentioning to me minutes later that she also has a wild, impulsive side that her friends call "Dark <her name>". She then told me she only sees me as a friend, and I took the point: let's end this interaction right now.

By the way, I'm not an experienced seducer myself, but I'm a firm believer in the core concepts and have been using them, as well as I can, to improve my life for more than ten years now. I'm working on becoming the tiger myself. I know that in order to become one, the first thing is to stop being around women that think you aren't one...

Be the tiger, not the kitten.
 

Prodigy

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jun 16, 2024
Messages
108
Hey @Marty !

Here's the advice I have:

Be the tiger, not the kitten.

Moreover, there's one thing that seems way out-of-place in the whole report. Are you familiar with Girls Chase? Have you read any of the articles there? Even more generally, have you read any book or material in seduction?

In your report, you are basically breaking every rule of seduction, ones you can find in the literature:
* You are not acting fast
* You are not escalating
* You are not asking for compliance
* You are trying to be her provider, by being nice, friendly, boyfriend-like
* You are investing a lot
* You are chasing
* You are putting this girl on a pedestal

This is stricking, because then you come here to a seduction forum asking for advice. You seem open-minded, open to advice. And you seem to be an old member here. However, I guess that experienced seducers here will give you advice that matches the seduction literature. If you aren't open to what you read in the literature, then I don't see how you are open to advice given here.

Trust your instincts. Trust your gut feelings. Do you think that this girl, who is into Shibari, kinky stuff, who likes to drive fast, who has a fire inside her, a wild side, do you think she is sexually attracted to someone she calls "my dear", "my kitten"? A kitten, a baby animal, is not able to reproduce with an adult female yet, by biological definition. It's not a coincidence she is calling you that. It's symbolic.

You seem to be idealizing her like a pure and perfect Madonna. The nickname you came up for her is also a solid symbol for that: Botticelli. You are turning a real life Venus who has kinky sexual needs into an idealized, image of Madonna who is pure and innocent, just like a Botticelli painting.

I myself have had similar symbolic problems in the past. Once I crushed over a girl and started calling her "my elf". She then proceeded to call me "her hobbit". I never talked to her again. Unless I can come up to her again as a elf warrior myself, there's no point in doing that. And I've had a similar problem again recently, when I called a girl I liked "little Buddha" because she had a spiritual side, just to have her mentioning to me minutes later that she also has a wild, impulsive side that her friends call "Dark <her name>". She then told me she only sees me as a friend, and I took the point: let's end this interaction right now.

By the way, I'm not an experienced seducer myself, but I'm a firm believer in the core concepts and have been using them, as well as I can, to improve my life for more than ten years now. I'm working on becoming the tiger myself. I know that in order to become one, the first thing is to stop being around women that think you aren't one...

Be the tiger, not the kitten.
I feel the same way @DArtagnan Marty must go for the kill but even then honestly this matter is quite simple really ,if i read the whole post right which is very long ,sometimes letting a hun go is the best measure with this typa thing ,personally when a lot of time has passed( more than a month )wanting one hun ,I just do a cut off these days plus attraction eventually expires anyway

@Marty I think you should free yourself of this mess and precedence man, ive had one itis situations before ,you will eventually find another like her without the 7 year mixed bag chase,anyway that is my 2 cents .Hope you find super solid advice that will satisfy and let you escape from the situation.
 

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
1,563
@gameboy, @DArtagnan, @Prodigy: thank you gentlemen so much for your kind input. Allow me to take your comments one at a time.

@DArtagnan, it's obvious from the detail you included that you have taken the trouble to read not only the report on the most recent date, but also the entire Field Report. Thank you for doing that: I appreciate that it is long.

Believe it or not, d'Artagnan, the girl mentioned here has a dog called Athos, so it's quite a coincidence that you specifically choose to comment! :LOL: In fact, summarized under the simple phrase:

We chatted a little
...I commented on her new profile picture in WhatsApp, shot from behind, sitting with Athos and both looking out over a lake:

M: ...and your jeans hug your figure beautifully as always 😌

B: Hee-hee thank you )

At any rate, let me move on to your comments.

Are you familiar with Girls Chase? Have you read any of the articles there?
It's hard to tell whether this is meant tongue-in-cheek, since I am conscious that I sometimes take remarks too much at face value! But yes, as you observed:
And you seem to be an old member here.
...I signed up to the forum in the summer of 2013 and started reading the articles on the website a few months before that. In fact, this forum was called "Girls Chase Boards" at that time, so I could hardly have missed it. I'm very familiar with most of the sections. That doesn't mean to say that I understand them, still less know how to apply them in practice.

In your report, you are basically breaking every rule of seduction
Don't forget that it is much more difficult for a person to detect his own mistakes than those of others. That's why I chose to post my Field Report here: If I could simply run over in my mind everything that happened and figure out by myself where I went wrong, I wouldn't need the input of experienced and helpful people such as yourself. Moreover, as I mentioned earlier:
That's why I've made the report as honest and accurate as possible. It's not about looking to impress; go ahead, rip it apart: I'm here to learn.
...I've tried as far as I can to recall the events of the evening and night precisely and document them dispassionately. So while I have no doubt that your bullet list of broken rules is 100% correct, the report isn't embellished at all—it's pretty much a historical record—so what you are actually doing is criticizing the way I acted that midsummer evening. And yes, that is exactly what I need, but of course I didn't know at the time that Monsieur d'Artagnan was kindly looking over my shoulder, so to speak. A person can't be expected to foresee and eliminate his own mistakes in a field where he is very inexperienced and unsure of his own abilities: in my case, turning a spark of attraction into a fire of passion. That's why I need your help!

Even more generally, have you read any book or material in seduction?
Hmm, let's see:
  • Roosh V Bang
  • Roosh V Game
  • Mark Manson Models
  • Rollo Tomassi The Rational Male
  • Michael Chief Never Lonely
  • Orion Taraban The Value of Others
  • Chateau Heartiste blog (now defunct)
Nonetheless, the articles here at Girls Chase have been far more helpful than any of the above resources.

You seem open-minded, open to advice.
Yes, I am very open-minded by nature and score high on "Openness" in the Five Factor Model. It is a steep and daunting learning curve for someone who only became aware that this specialization existed in 2013, at the age of 37, with a handful of 1- to 2-year LTRs and a 10-year marriage already under his belt. People have been very helpful, and if I had not been open-minded, I'd have moved on from here long before now. It's thanks to the help of all the other members that I keep progressing. If I'd started at the same age as some of the members here, that would have to have been in, say, 1996, when I turned 21, and had barely become aware of the existence of the internet, let alone specialized blogs.

However, I guess that experienced seducers here will give you advice that matches the seduction literature. If you aren't open to what you read in the literature, then I don't see how you are open to advice given here.
Again, d'Artagnan, there seems to be some confusion. I am logging here what I actually DID that night. I'm not curating it to conform to what, yes, I know to be the recommendations of experienced members. That doesn't mean that I'm "not open to advice". If I could already do it as they do, I'd be doing it and wouldn't be reporting here at all.

I appreciate everything that you and others do for me and do not mean to sound frustrated. I just want to clear up this misunderstanding, because it has occurred before with others here. If I report something in my Field Reports that I did wrong, it's because I'm reporting it accurately and actually did it, not because I'm somehow closed-off to good advice. Thanks for understanding.

* You are not acting fast
Could you give an example from the report, please, where I seemed to move too slow?

You are not escalating
Probably true. I often placed my hands on her thighs in the restaurant and in the boat, but it's difficult to get too handsy in public, and I couldn't get her back to my hotel room, as indicated in the report.

You are not asking for compliance
Okay, this one I struggle with a bit. If I text her, she always responds. If I ask her out, then so long as we can nail down mutually convenient logistics, she accepts. Yes, she is a bit bratty when we actually meet, wanting to control things a bit more than I am used to with most of the girls I know, but I'm not sure how to respond to that, so I normally brush it off nonchalantly. What else does she need to comply with?

You are trying to be her provider, by being nice, friendly, boyfriend-like
Again, could you provide examples? Unlike the previous points, I don't see this one at all. I've certainly never "provided" anything to her that my girlfriends typically ask me for (get their hair, nails done etc.), not that she would need it from me anyway, as a highly-qualified and well compensated attorney.

It would be good to see what exactly prompted this, so that I understand what is meant by "nice, friendly" in women's eyes. Thank you.

You are investing a lot
You mean that I chose to spend my vacation days in her home city, with the benefit of having a chance to see her? That is true, and there were other considerations, but I can imagine that this might have been perceived as excessive investment by the girl, devaluing me in her eyes, I suppose.

You are chasing
Can you explain how I am chasing?

You are putting this girl on a pedestal
Can you explain what I am doing to pedestalize her?

Again, I know all these rules already, but identifying by myself what I am doing in practice is almost impossible... that's why I'm writing everything up accurately.

Do you think that this girl, who is into Shibari, kinky stuff, who likes to drive fast, who has a fire inside her, a wild side, do you think she is sexually attracted to someone she calls "my dear", "my kitten"?
On this one, I have no idea. She obviously likes something about me. At 26, she's already been a director at a law firm and now has her own private legal consultancy. On the Aella scale, she's a solid 8. As far as I know, a woman like that doesn't waste her time, be it 6 hours at dinner and on a boat, or 5 days in Türkiye, with a man she's not attracted to. Such a woman doesn't spontaneously reach out to him again if communication has died down either. And yet she's doing all these things.

As regards sexual attraction specifically, she told me she doesn't like kissing. If I attempt to kiss, she turns not just her cheek but her whole head sideways and leans in for an embrace instead. Does she like sex? What am I supposed to think?

You are turning a real life Venus who has kinky sexual needs into an idealized, image of Madonna who is pure and innocent, just like a Botticelli painting.
I don't know what needs she has, because she doesn't show me, explain to me, or do anything with me. When we were in Türkiye in early 2024 she came to my hotel room to play a card game, at her own suggestion, in which you take a card and have to answer a question about yourself honestly. Some of them are quite personal and even embarrassing. I asked her to sit closer to me on the bed. She just ignored my suggestion, as if she hadn't heard what I said. It's as if I can't get through to her on an intimate level.

I myself have had similar symbolic problems in the past.
Thank you for being willing to share your own experiences and vulnerabilities, I really appreciate that.

Be the tiger, not the kitten.
That's a solid plan. Again, thanks, d'Artagnan; I've tried to extract as much as I possibly can from your kind response. I felt the need to address some of your points in more detail, because it's only through clear mutual understanding that I can be more productive and make progress.

@gameboy, @Prodigy, I will address your comments under separate cover, so that this post does not become too long and unwieldy.
 

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
1,563
Hola @gameboy! Nice to hear from a fellow Gen Xer!

Otherwise - it's a beautiful post.
Thanks ☺️

It reads like it's from another century.
Ahaha well, you and I both were born in another century, @gameboy; and I haven't taken any further writing classes since I learned the basics in elementary school in the 1980s, so it's unsurprising I still sound that way I guess 😄

(Am I wrong in thinking that a Gameboy is some tech device from our youthful years, like a Walkman?)

Or is this is a 7-year unfulfilled oneitis?
Nothing doing. It's as well to get that out of the way upfront. There's a girl I've been seeing for about the same period. She comes over to see me, or travels somewhere with me, 2 to 3 times per year for about a week each time. She says she loves me but doesn't want to move in with me, which suits me I guess and leaves me free to pursue other options. @Skills already rightfully and hilariously ribbed me for answering Botticelli wrongly about her, above:
no point on telling women you have a girlfriend unless is a girl you don't plan to fuck...you probably tell her after the 50 th fuck if ever, "oh my bad i thought you knew or i told you"

One question came up in my mind -- are you having sex with other girls?
If you must know, my "main squeeze" and I have it a 2-3 times a week when she is in town.

But if I were in your shoes I would have been much more aggressive with that girl, circa 6.5 years ago.
Good advice. Did you see a point in the narrative where she may have been open? An escalation window?

You do have the right to insist, and you should have.
You're referring to my text message?

So you mean something like an ultimatum? It doesn't sound very powerful to me, maybe even a little desperate, no?

I read an article written by a woman recently which contained the sentence: "In my case, I need to be made to have sex more often than I would choose to if the decision was always mine alone." Is that the sort of thing you mean?

She will never make that decision by herself.
Interesting. I know that you are prolific at journaling, @gameboy. Do you have maybe a Journal entry (or, still better, a Field Report) you can point me to that shows how it's done? Thank you.

Also, you should have at least gone for the kiss at some point in those 7 years.
I did. She always turned her head away. She says she doesn't like kissing.

This part I disagree with. I am very much glad that I started chasing (and kissing, and bedding) girls at a young age. But you do you.
I apologize if I did not make myself clear. I never refrained from kissing or bedding women; I had several long and happy relationships.

I meant that I spent time making something of myself rather than vainly chasing after uninterested women. For example, I had my first real relationship just after I turned 20. She was a few years older, had 10 admitted previous partners (that was a bigger deal in 1996 than it would be today, as I'm sure you know), and was very beautiful. I hadn't even completed my studies and had basically nothing to my name; I was skinny and lacking in muscle tone, and quite immature and awkward. We dated for over half a year. What she saw in me I will never know. Only 6 years later I was crushing it in the energy sector as a business controller and had a beautiful wife. By that time, it was clear that I brought something to the table.

The fact that you don't seem to see that even a young man has something, a lot, of value to offer to a girl, is probably the reason why you are struggling.
Also, I was speaking specifically about myself, not implying that a young man has nothing to offer. I know plenty young men who are far more mature and successful than I was. On that more general point, this has been covered by Cartoons Hate Her on Substack (partially paywalled) and I have nothing to add to that article.

She is just as scared as you are to lose the platonic, but beautiful, relationship you two already have.
😂 sorry @gameboy but I had to laugh at the number of assumptions squirreled into that sentence. Number 1: I am not "scared". Number 2: We do not have a "platonic, but beautiful, relationship". I don't feel the need to add information to back up those assertions, since it is self-evident from the report.

Rather, I'd be interested to know: What on Earth did you see in the report that gave you the idea that our "relationship" (if you can call it that) was platonic, or that I was scared of anything at all?

At some point you need to let the animal in you push the hopeless romantic aside, and just take that woman already.
Still struggling to understand, sorry. What "hopeless romantic"? I wrote the report, not to be told that I need to "take" her, which is exactly what I have been trying to do at every meeting, but to understand from others why she is not accepting it. Again, I risk sounding pedantic and irritating, but it just seems so incredibly obvious to me from what I have written already that I have told her I want her and she is saying no, but she is still attracted to me, and therefore I don't know why she is refusing. Perhaps I wrote the report badly after all.

People are kindly taking time out of their schedule to respond to me, not for reward, but out of sheer kindness, including you; and so many of you are missing the point and I don't understand why. I am the common denominator in this, so I must be reporting something unclearly and I don't know what.

Do people really come here just to ask for encouragement to tell girls their desires? That seems so basic. At any rate, that's not me.

I thought that the point of the Field Reports board was to understand what went wrong with a girl, given that she already knows I want her and we have some kind of rapport going already, but she is denying my advances while still claiming to find me attractive as a man.

Some women will do that, but if this one hasn't in 7 years, then she never will.
Fair enough. I'm not a quitter in general, but I agree that sometimes one has to cut losses rather than falling for the sunk cost fallacy.

ive had one itis situations before
I don't have oneitis, @Prodigy, but thank you, because I know that your comments are also well intended.

I think you should free yourself of this mess and precedence man
You are possibly right. I haven't decided yet, but it seems pointless to close off an option; after all, I don't think I need to do that to pursue other avenues.

Thanks @gameboy, @DArtagnan, and @Prodigy for taking the time and putting in what was clearly quite a heavy effort to read and comment. I appreciate it very much.

-Marty
 

gameboy

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 7, 2023
Messages
1,278
Ahaha well, you and I both were born in another century, @gameboy;
Ahh, but I didn't mean that century... I meant the one before that! My bad :)

This was meant as a compliment by the way. I really enjoy reading your posts, they are fun to read since you have your very unique style on this forum.

(Am I wrong in thinking that a Gameboy is some tech device from our youthful years, like a Walkman?)
It is indeed! I never owned one, but I thought it would be a good user name for a forum all about game.

Nothing doing.
I'm relieved to read that :) That changes a number of things. From your writing I was under the impression that you are in some sort of unrequited love situation with Boticelli since 7 years. I admit I only read the latest post, because I believe I've read the other posts before but obviously I don't remember all the details now.

Did you see a point in the narrative where she may have been open? An escalation window?
Referring to you last post: I don't know if she was open, probably not, but I'd have insisted more at the point where you invite her to your place and she refuses. But after 7 years, admittedly the chances are slim.

So you mean something like an ultimatum? It doesn't sound very powerful to me, maybe even a little desperate, no?I
No, of course not lol. I meant you should have insisted a bit more at the point where you were trying to pull her to your apartment. I wasn't there so I can't say if there were any chances of success. If she just said "I'm too tired" I would probably have invited her up a couple times more.

But again, this "insisting" should have happened much earlier on in the relationship. In the first month ideally. With each month that passes your chances drop. Why would she now suddenly decide to sleep with you if she couldn't be bothered to previously?

I did. She always turned her head away. She says she doesn't like kissing.
Ah, good. That was what I meant. If you tried that several times already and she always rejected you, then you can either keep her as a platonic (yes!) friend or next her.

Again, if the attempts to kiss her are in the previous older posts, I didn't read the whole thread all over again so my bad I guess.

I apologize if I did not make myself clear. I never refrained from kissing or bedding women; I had several long and happy relationships.
That's good to know! From your post it sounded a bit like you thought you shouldn't have sex until you get a university degree and a stable income or something.

I know plenty young men who are far more mature and successful than I was.
Plenty of immature unsuccesful guys are getting laid, and the girls still enjoy it.


I know that you are prolific at journaling, @gameboy. Do you have maybe a Journal entry (or, still better, a Field Report) you can point me to that shows how it's done? Thank you.
How what is done? Making the decision? Well, by going for the kiss, of course. But you now made it clear that you tried that multiple times already, and she wouldn't have it. I can only make assumptions why not. Maybe she has someone else who is banging her, but the guy isn't as romantic as you so she enjoys getting that from you and stringing you along? Or maybe she is asexual or has some fear of becoming involved with you? I really don't know.

As for my journal, it is about day game and not about trying to turn around 7 year friend zone situations. (I know you said she said you're not in the friend zone, but I'm afraid that's exactly where you are). So I have to admit I'm not an expert on that.

I've had a number of platonic female friends in my life that I enjoyed hanging out with, but these were usually girls I wasn't sexually interested in. (Even though some of them were interested in me, in hindsight, but they didn't make it clear and it wasn't obvious to me at the time.)

But in situations when the girl turns her head away I haven't found a remedy for that yet I'm afraid. No wait, now I remember, I think it happened to me once with the girlfriend I was with before the last one. That girl I tried to kiss on the 2nd date, we were in a dance club. The first time I tried she did indeed turn her head away. I backed off and was disheartened at first, previously when I went for a kiss the girls usually went for it, especially if it was a 2nd date late at night. But my soon-to-be-girlfriend kept being receptive to dancing and flirting. So I just went for it again a short while later, and at the 2nd attempt we were making out until the lights came on in the club at 6am. I then took her home and made her mine... good times!

But after 7 years of not even kissing? Don't ask me, I never had the patience for something like that. But now that I know you did try to kiss her, I suppose you did the right thing. Would insisting more would have worked? Lord only knows!

Number 1: I am not "scared".
Okay, you made it clear you went for it several times, and she rejected. So I agree you are not scared.

We do not have a "platonic, but beautiful, relationship
I wrote platonic meaning sexless (platonic sounds better).

I understand platonic can also mean that there is romantic attraction, which seems to be the case. So maybe your relationship is not platonic in the strict sense of the word.

What on Earth did you see in the report that gave you the idea that our "relationship" (if you can call it that) was platonic
Because you are not fucking her.

And yes I would call it relationship, a weird romantic friendly one but without going all the way.

What "hopeless romantic"?
Well you seem to have been wining and dining her and showering her with gifts for 7 years, and still not got the girl.

Sorry if I called you a hopeless romantic, but your posts do sound a little like that. If you had relationships before and you are sleeping with the other girl, you are not hopeless though, so I take that back.

But romantic you definitely seem to be, and that's a good thing. So am I! And yet I still have hope :)

People are kindly taking time out of their schedule to respond to me, not for reward, but out of sheer kindness, including you; and so many of you are missing the point and I don't understand why. I am the common denominator in this, so I must be reporting something unclearly and I don't know what.
I think that's just due to the limitations of describing situations in written form. I am encountering the same in my journal and field reports. We so often forget to spell out what we think should be obvious. But everyone interprets things in different ways.

It's one of the reasons I've been journalling less recently, because it's so time consuming to put all the details of every encounter into writing in a way that is impossible to misunderstand.

When I read your posts (or anyone else's who doesn't post here all too frequently), I often only have a faint general idea of who you are and what your history is from whatever it is I remember reading from you previously. So I wasn't aware that you've been married and have had girlfriends and are seeing another girl occasionaly.

Same thing happens with people who read me I assume. Someone who has only read my latest posts might also see me as hopeless, since I'm not spelling out my entire history with girls each time. I posted kind of a resume of that information in the introductory post of my journal, but of course not everyone who reads my updates can be expected to go there and read through it.

So, to resume: Can this girl be turned into a lover? To be honest, I don't know. The only advice I can give you would be to insist more when you are trying to escalate (like when you tried to pull her to your apartement). If you can pull this off after 7 years of courtship, that would be quite an impressive achievement.
 
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Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
1,563
Can this girl be turned into a lover? To be honest, I don't know. The only advice I can give you would be to insist more when you are trying to escalate (like when you tried to pull her to your apartement).

Something like this perhaps?
“I like you. I’m not here to waste time. If it’s mutual, great; if not, I’ll move on.”
 
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