Converting appreciation into affection

[Marty]

In Chase Amante’s article Arousal vs. Similarity, he writes the following:

Pure similarity guys will also get lays, but primarily only with:

1. Girls who are sexually inexperienced and aren't looking for / don't know to look for the extra spike of arousal that comes from men who know how to arouse them

Later in the same article, he writes:

“The man she's experiencing so much trust with doesn't seem to be able to make her feel the things she needs to move this from a good connection to a sexual relationship”.

It seems that this applies to me, as I will explain below.

What is meant by “the extra spike of arousal that comes from men who know how to arouse them”? Or “make her feel the things she needs to move this … to a sexual relationship”? The above phrases hint tantalizingly at a possibility, without going into practical detail. This constant lack of ability to implement advice in practice is an issue that leaves me frustratingly unequipped to take successful action and grow.

In the course of 30 years of adulthood, I have slept with, made out with, or otherwise been intimate with only around 15 women. I have never knowingly gotten an approach invitation. Yet below is a smattering of the remarks I have received from super attractive women over the years. These are copy-pasted from texts or emails, literal translations, or transcribed from voice messages with zero embellishment:

“Oh.... Thanks God you came back into my life!))) I was sure our communication completely stopped as you decided there's no more point in it anymore...
I'm really super-madly-crazy-happy it's not true anymore (I hope so at least ))”

“Sitting with a smile because of you...) thank you so much for being such a great part of my life!!!”

“I also havent met the man with a real-man-core inside since I met you...”

“It's such a warm and familiar feeling inside of me every time I get "news" from you...)”

“I have missed you, it’s a pity we didn’t see each other this year”

“I remembered you as a proper and good man”

“How cool you are, tanned, even though you told me you don’t tan well”

“It’s rare to meet a man who is such a pleasure to travel with”

“How handsome you are) you look super”

“Did anyone waylay you on the way home? Such a good-looking, handsome man could be stolen away”

“You are an ideal man”

“I find you attractive”

“I grew wings when you appeared in my life … you are my hero and my ideal”

What is going on here? Why is it taking me such a massive effort to achieve intimacy, in the context of so much apparent appreciation? Is it really all just empty flattery? Can a girl’s words somehow be “converted” into a willingness to open her legs? The phrases above from Chase’s article suggest that they can indeed. But how?

 

[theReason]

Arousal vs. Similarity? I think you are reading the wrong article.

https://www.girlschase.com/content/reactions-women-or-results-women

Speak simply. Think simply. Go with your gut.

You'll be wrong a lot, and that's fine, but you'll be training your decisiveness and simple thinking, which is very helpful when things are simple.

Situations with girls are NOT always simple, but they sometimes are, and when you don't know how to be simple, you fail in these situations.

And even when things ARE complicated, the answers are eventually simple and if you can't think simply, you will also fail there.

- Source: https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/requests-for-gifts-upfront.28949/post-175514

Laying down, I just grab her hand, sit up and say “come on” and pull her up. She slowly stands and then walks out with me.

Simple but hard. Hard, because you need the balls to lead. But simple, because the act itself requires little physical effort.

- Source: LRx2: The Sex Adventures

 

[Stark]

What is meant by “the extra spike of arousal that comes from men who know how to arouse them”? Or “make her feel the things she needs to move this … to a sexual relationship”? The above phrases hint tantalizingly at a possibility, without going into practical detail. This constant lack of ability to implement advice in practice is an issue that leaves me frustratingly unequipped to take successful action and grow

Similarity is important, keep doing what you’re doing but add arousal techniques to your game. This is a natural outflow of viewing women as sexual beings.

In simple terms, you would slot yourself into the role of a lover. Your vibe resembles someone she hooks up with.

While approaching, this is what I use to create arousal:

1. Sexual Eye contact
2. Teases
3. Touch (start slowly , escalate gradually)
4. Cut space by moving closer to her
5. Sexual state transference ( imagining her naked )

During first date:

Maintain all of the above, use sexual gambits. She must feel you’re a non judgemental lover who can show her a good time that she can open up with.

 

[Jan]

Dear @Marty

You have already asked this question, although in different words or context.

The problem you are having is that you do not see women in a sexual way. You don't see them sexually, therefore you don't escalate the sexual vibe.

The comments which you pasted indicate that you have attraction and comfort part figured out. Therefore, don't waste any time on trying to improve on these.

Focus on seeing her sexual side, focus on physicality, sensuality, touching her, smelling, and fucking.

It's the sexuality part which leads to intimacy.

Apart from the steps which Stark mentioned (which are all good), you can also do some introspection related to what you feel when you picture women in sexual way. It's possibly that you have some undiscovered shame or fear around sexuality which is blocking you to feel/act sexually towards them.

 

[Marty]

@Stark, as always, you are a treasure! You identified the key question at the core of my post and addressed that, right upfront.

1. Sexual Eye contact
2. Teases
3. Touch (start slowly , escalate gradually)
4. Cut space by moving closer to her
5. Sexual state transference ( imagining her naked )

Thank you, this is a practical set of tips aimed at fixing the specific problem at hand. #2 is difficult for me, except in existing sexual relationships. #1, #3, and #4 are straightforward, so I probably have to push those to the limit to compensate for the lack of #2.

On #5, I looked it up and listened to a very helpful podcast by a man calling himself "Todd V" which broke down this transference concept in a relatable, practicable way.

@Jan, thanks one more time for responding to my calls for help.

You have already asked this question, although in different words or context.

That is very possible. I don't remember doing so, but I have no doubt that if you made the connection, it is there.

The problem you are having is that you do not see women in a sexual way.

I'm an open-minded person and, if you say so, again you are probably right. I obviously see women in some sort of positive way, otherwise I wouldn't be here on Girls Chase. After all, I'm not lonely, I've had all or most of the children I want, I've had experience of family life, and good experiences in relationships, so I'm looking for women by choice rather than by necessity. And I do like them an enormous amount, else I wouldn't devote so much effort to reporting my activities on the forum. And I certainly don't post on the forum just for fun: In fact, the reason I often abandon it for months at a time is that it tends to cause me more problems than it solves in some ways. When I'm actively posting, I lose sleep a lot, worry, get distracted from primary responsibilities, and generally feel sad that I am unable to capitalize on the world's female opportunities in the way that the most successful members have done. Yet I keep coming back because women are always there, a constant reminder that there is something special to be had, they are never out of my thoughts even if I'm not actively involved.

Long story short, the way I see women is certainly as some kind of desirable facet of life, but you may be right that is it not sexual.

The comments which you pasted indicate that you have attraction and comfort part figured out. Therefore, don't waste any time on trying to improve on these.

Good, thanks, that's a useful practical tip.

It's the sexuality part which leads to intimacy.

That's interesting. It's useful to know that key.

It's possibly that you have some undiscovered shame or fear around sexuality which is blocking you to feel/act sexually towards them.

I find aspects of the issue extremely frightening, to be honest, although I'm not sure why. Sometimes when women actively bring up borderline subjects related to it, I start to feel physically nauseous and want to get out of the situation pronto. Search, for example, the word "Mosque" in the linked FR and read the paragraph containing it. Or in the same FR search the word "Mistress" and read the 3 consecutive paragraphs containing occurrences of that word.

@theReason, it is clear from your response that my initial post was poorly organized and unclear, making it difficult to find the key question I was asking (quoted back at the beginning of @Stark's response). I apologize for that, and appreciate you taking the time and effort to respond anyway.

I think you are reading the wrong article.

Yes, I understand that I am not getting results. I was hoping to find out why.

- Source: https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/requests-for-gifts-upfront.28949/post-175514

Go with my gut? If I was able to do this stuff intuitively, I wouldn't be here. The site is great at breaking things down into manageable bites, which is why I'm laying out the problem as plainly as I can on the forum. Chase Amante himself recognized (in a magnificent feat of introspection and self-knowledge) that he needed more than gut feel, and developed a whole evidence-based approach that is the foundation of the site.

- Source: LRx2: The Sex Adventures

I read this LR, it's incredible. How on Earth does he do this?

 

[theReason]

Yes, I understand that I am not getting results. I was hoping to find out why.

Stark is spot-on and Jan is exactly what you need to hear.

If you want intimacy, you should try to get sex.

Having sex is having the girl. You cannot half-have something.

Go with my gut? If I was able to do this stuff intuitively, I wouldn't be here.

I can relate to the confusion about gut feeling, because I only get a “gut feeling” about something every couple of years myself.

Just remove the “go with your gut” line. Everything else about that post, you really should put some introspection into following the advice.

Hector’s saying “look at the simple part of the situation and respond simply.”

You want the girl: if the girl is interested, lead her to sex.

Once you have sex multiple times, her intimacy will be freely given to you.

 

[Marty]

Having sex is having the girl.

I like that phrasing. I think I’ve seen it in one of the articles on the site.

Everything else about that post, you really should put some introspection into following the advice.

I didn’t understand that post.

You want the girl: if the girl is interested, lead her to sex.

Once you have sex multiple times, her intimacy will be freely given to you.

That makes sense to me based on experience. Girls I’ve known have been quite emotionally close with me in the cases when we’ve already had sex.

I think I am encountering difficulty at an earlier stage in the interaction, though. Many of the quotations above are from women who have not been intimate with me, or who have done so only in a very limited way (e.g. twice a week during occasional visits, or a one-off). Something seems to be slipping up before arriving at sex.

 

[theReason]

You haven’t been leading them to sex because you don’t want sex, you want intimacy.

You have clearly led all these women to a light form of emotional intimacy, and they “appreciate you,” but if you want “deep affectionate intimacy” you need to lead them to sex while they are still “interested” in sex.

Attraction has an expiration date.

I’ve fucked a girl the day I met her, fucked another (less attractive) girl two days after I met her. But the one time I had a date 3 days after I met a girl, she no longer saw me in a sexual way. Although she did see me that way the day we met.

Does this make sense? You have to lead them to from stranger to sex, quickly, with haste, without distractions, without dilly-dallying, or you’ll never have the deep intimacy.

I didn’t understand that post.

Keep trying to understand that post. Hector put an hour of work into that post—you know how much he charges for an hour.

Use Google Translate and ChatGPT to translate it from English to your native language. Maybe it is speaking to your head and needs to speak to your heart.

 

[Marty]

You haven’t been leading them to sex because you don’t want sex

That's not strictly true, @theReason. It's not that I don't want it; it's that it takes me a while to get in the mood and warm up.

Also, for me, sex is a very private matter, and what I find quite difficult is dragging the sexual mood out into the public sphere, which I have to enter to meet new women. Fortunately, in day game, this is just about doable, since it is possible to "create a love bubble" as beautifully described by @Stark in the linked post. I don't know how people to social circle or night game, though; if I tried courting a woman in a crowded environment, I'm sure I would find the involvement of others in the conversation intrusive.

Far from not wanting sex, I want it with women who want it too; but that last point is crucial. Within relationships, this has not been too much of a problem. I think it would do me a lot of good to have a "hookup" or two, however, and this is where the problems arise. I'm not here to contradict you outright when you are trying to help me, of course, especially since you demonstrated your own ability with your latest LR from vacation. For that reason, I'll give a couple of concrete examples by way of explanation.

At one end of the spectrum, we have a lady I called "QueenBee" in my FR. This is a lady whose Telegram messaging profile still contains about three dozen pictures, each of her in different, brightly colored, and extremely revealing attire. She described herself to me as "lighthearted" and "easygoing". Superficially, therefore, it doesn't take a master of subtext to detect that she is advertising herself as sexually available.

After a Saturday evening date at a restaurant and a boat trip, I led her back to my hotel room and performed oral sex on her. So far, so good. I met her again the next afternoon for a late lunch; then Monday she wanted to take a break from work and meet one more time for coffee before I traveled home from her city, but I respectfully declined due to time constraints. From those interactions I infer that there was no "regret". But here's where things come apart a bit.

A few weeks later (September 2023) she wanted to meet me again, and persuaded me to arrange flights for her to Budapest, which was within easy reach for me by train. I agreed, and we spent three sunny, enjoyable, and good-tempered days visiting the city, three romantic evenings at nice restaurants and terrace bars, and three nights in separate bedrooms within the same hotel suite. We had agreed upon the latter as an ideal solution to maintaining personal space (after all, we barely knew each other) whilst leaving open the opportunity for intimacy. Despite this, no sex occurred.

At the time, I wrote it down to experience and resolved not to bother with her again, even though there was a tear in her eye when I took my taxi to the rail station at the end of the trip. But here's where things get confusing. Since that time, she has repeated the same performance three times, in January 2024, May 2024, and December 2024, consisting of the following steps:

• She reaches out to me, out of the blue, full of bubbly energy and verve, often including dozens of sexy photos in the message thread
• She emphasizes that we get along well, reminds me of our previous enjoyable interactions, and suggests that we should put aside past differences and meet again
• She proposes a selection of locations where she would like to be invited
• I am noncommittal due to not wanting to be fooled a second time
• Messages pile up in my Telegram inbox, approximately 20 of hers to each one of mine
• Eventually she explodes in an orgy of insults and recriminations, deletes the entire message thread, and disappears
• Repeat a few months later

On the most recent occasion, over the New Year, she mentioned that she had bought some new lingerie. I told her that I imagined it looked wonderful on her, and she replied that it was even better if a man took it off. I inquired: "Any man?", and she responded: "No, a good quality one. Like you."

Then she started proposing places to meet as usual; first it was Belgrade, then Istanbul. I spun things out as usual, and when she started to get frustrated, I decided to use the opportunity to try to learn something. First I explained that I was the sort of man who, once he had made up his mind to do something, pursued it single-mindedly, and therefore there was no need to keep nagging me; if I was noncommittal, there was a reason for that. She told me that she remembered this about me from our first meeting. Then I said something which prompted the explosion. "It's as if you've forgotten about Budapest." That's all I said. I didn't even mention sex, but she knew what was up right away.

There followed a stream of self-contradictory messages. First she said how dare I expect sex from her. (How dare she expect a trip from me?) Then she said I should have created an atmosphere conducive to sex, and that I was incompetent (ridiculous given what I said above about romantic evenings in Budapest's coziest lounges at sunset, and what a good time she was obviously having). Then she expressed astonishment that I, a man of almost 50, still remembered an event from less than two years ago. All the above I just let ride; when it's so clearly untrue, it just bounces off me, to be frank.

But then, crucially, she let the cat out of the bag. She exclaimed at the fact that I was bringing this up now, rather than at the time of occurrence.

Fair enough. Many relationships suffer or fail because people fail to address grievances in the moment, and let them fester, only for them to recur at the most inopportune times. But this wasn't something I really could have addressed directly.

Just picture the situation. We met on an app in 2023 and almost immediately had a video call. She knew my intentions right away; she liked dressing up, and I liked admiring her body. This is the perfect setup for a casual relationship. We meet in person, get along swimmingly, and have oral sex the same night. Then she wants to meet again, for several nights this time. I'm doubtful, but in the end I'm game. I don't invite platonic friends on vacation, obviously, so everybody knows what the deal is. Right? Wrong. We tour the city, hold hands, flirt, have romantic dinners, come back to the hotel room, and … nothing happens.

I can't very well draw explicit attention to the unspoken, but obvious, social debt. It would be crude. If she's not going to make good on it, well, that's her prerogative. It has something of the feel of her leaving a restaurant without paying the check "because the waiter didn't say anything", but I'm not prepared to create an awkward situation like that. I prefer to remain dignified, but please don't expect a repeat invitation. That much should be obvious.

So the above describes the situation where sex is advertised, but there is no substance to it.

The second example is very different: A girl who knows I like her, and claims to be attracted to me, makes an explicitly antisexual remark!

Remember the young lawyer "Botticelli" from my earlier FR? Again, @Stark was advising me to take every opportunity for a flirtatious interaction with her. So I did. Following a small service rendered (translation of a couple of sentences of legalese from Russian into English):

B: Thank you, my darling ​

M: I will accept in payment a kiss on the lips next time instead of turning away your head as you usually do ​

B: Ahahah I don't like kissing at all You have high prices, sir ​

M: Not to worry, I can do many other things with my mouth ​

B: Noted ​

​

What's this? She doesn't like kissing? About the other thing, she didn't even say whether she liked it. And what about sex, does she like that? We don't know.

Now, to be fair, "Botticelli" hasn't at all engaged in the sort of "false advertising" that I was describing above in connection with "QueenBee". Far from it. On the contrary, she's always given me the impression of being a super serious girl. She dresses modest yet sexy; she takes my arm or holds me close on dates, showing warmth and caring, but doesn't flaunt her body around in front of me like "QueenBee" did on the boat; and as described above, she turns her cheek to say "goodbye" or "goodnight", while hugging hard.

Yet I am still bumping up against the issue of not understanding what she wants, and as described at the top of this post, that makes it difficult for me to want it. On the Türkiye trip, she came into my hotel room three times in total: Once to exchange gifts; once to borrow a lint roller (I was particularly proud that I had packed a mini one and was able to answer "yes" to her request, earning quite some Brownie points I guess); and once to play a card game with me with questions to get to know one another better. During the latter, we sat on my bed, and I asked her to come closer to me, but she ignored or pretended not to hear the instruction. We didn't kiss (I guess I know she doesn't like it), and we certainly didn't have sex.

Now what? I try again with other women I meet, I guess; but can I learn anything from the above?

 

[theReason]

You need to become a completely different person.

When your desire for sex is strong enough that you are willing to completely and radically change your entire brain to feel the touch of a woman, let me know.

 

[Marty]

You need to become a completely different person.

Thanks, buddy. I've given some thought to what you wrote.

Based on the data points I've gathered over the years, though, and my real-life experience—much of it meticulously documented on this forum—I don't think this approach is going to work for me.

I appreciate the sentiment, though; I know that it is well-intentioned.

 

[KJ Francis]

Hey Marty! How much money are you spending on women? If the "appreciation" is for your provider value, she may lay the charm on thick to reward you for it and encourage more of it. But this becomes transactional, trading something for affection, which is the opposite of the foundational "lover strategy" here.

I totally see the appeal of romantic evenings out. I know Don Gately is another gentleman who will take girls to the opera and expensive dinners. He is kinky as hell though.

Have you thought of reframing early dating as you screening her personality in order to earn your lover value? You can still take her out and pay I suppose, but what if you kept it to nothing more expensive than tacos? Then ignore all the reactions you get and her words, focus on results of her compliance toward the bedroom. And then once you've fucked her you can transition back to having nights on the town, companionship etc.

I am about to go meet a woman from online for the first time ever at her place. Early afternoon. Last night she went out with a guy for dinner and a movie.

 

[Marty]

Hey Marty!

Hey back at you, @KJ Francis, good of you to reply to my thread!

How much money are you spending on women?

I'm not spending any money on them—unless, of course, you mean within relationships. With long-term girlfriends, of course I impose some kind of spending limit or allowance to prevent things getting out of hand, but I hardly think these budgets are a subject for forum discussion. Assuming you mean girls I'm casually meeting with a view to romance, the answer's no. None. For girls, as I earlier described, who are saying all sorts of nice things about me without actually doing anything with me, certainly not.

If the "appreciation" is for your provider value, she may lay the charm on thick to reward you for it and encourage more of it.

Possibly, I have no idea. To be frank, KJ, I don't know how I would go about discovering what a woman's motivation is for saying the things she does.

But this becomes transactional, trading something for affection, which is the opposite of the foundational "lover strategy" here.

I know, I saw an amazing video by @Skills a few months ago where he speaks of "trading sex for sex". That sounds like a very nice thing to do.

I totally see the appeal of romantic evenings out. I know Don Gately is another gentleman who will take girls to the opera and expensive dinners.

I'm not familiar with that character, I'm sorry to say, but yes, I enjoy romantic evenings of course, but it takes me a lot of effort to get to that point of sitting next to someone at a table.

Then ignore all the reactions you get and her words, focus on results of her compliance toward the bedroom. And then once you've fucked her you can transition back to having nights on the town, companionship etc.

That sounds like a good idea. You know, KJ, I found that I actually mentioned this dilemma some time ago under the numbered point #3 here. Although it's been a while since that earlier post, I haven't really found a solution.

Have you thought of reframing early dating as you screening her personality in order to earn your lover value?

What does this mean exactly, KJ? How do I screen someone's personality? You mean to make sure my time is not being wasted?

I'm not very insightful about people, which makes it difficult to take what they say other than at face value. It's something I've been working on, but struggling with nonetheless.

Anyway, KJ, I appreciate you getting back to me, and I'll try to put some of the above into practice.

 

[KJ Francis]

I'm not spending any money on them—unless, of course, you mean within relationships

ahh ok it was just reading the below - if you are providing adventurous evenings out and can be expected to continually over time, she may not want to introduce a variable (sex) that could lead to that ending.

After a Saturday evening date at a restaurant and a boat trip

persuaded me to arrange flights for her to Budapest, which was within easy reach for me by train. I agreed, and we spent three sunny, enjoyable, and good-tempered days visiting the city, three romantic evenings at nice restaurants and terrace bars, and three nights in separate bedrooms within the same hotel suite.

I see now in the FR link though that you actually are the one who turned her down.

this dilemma some time ago under the numbered point #3 here

for the plausible deniability part, it's more for use when it is really obvious to both of you that you have reached an "it's on" moment and have some physical chemistry going, but you want to help her "save face" and follow you somewhere private.

Here's what messes with my head. Some girls, if you don't try to get into her pants, she gets some ridiculous, fanciful idea that you don't really desire her and auto-rejects or worse. Other girls, if you do try and get into her pants, she thinks you're just trying to get into her pants and don't value her as a person. And there's no way of telling beforehand which is which.

Is there really no way of putting this whole sex issue on the back burner until I feel confident enough that the girl likes me and is gonna want to see me again? Or doesn't it work like that? Now I'm concerned she thinks I "only want one thing" and won't see me as a result...

I think if you spend enough time getting to know her on the date, you're fine, especially if you visit multiple locations. Genuine interest will probably come across as sincere to her. If you are worried about her not wanting to see you again, I think that is usually an issue of low attainability... but having proper dates should take care of that.

How do I screen someone's personality? You mean to make sure my time is not being wasted?

yeah I just mean to think of dating less like a couple's night out and more like your evaluation of her because she wants to get her hands on you (but she can't admit it verbally because of social dangers). I believe you really have to fuck her first to get any actual "affection" out of her.

 

[Tryst]

Then she said I should have created an atmosphere conducive to sex, and that I was incompetent (ridiculous given what I said above about romantic evenings in Budapest's coziest lounges at sunset, and what a good time she was obviously having).

Is it ridiculous? You've written her advice off without even considering it, but ironically her advice actually addresses the crux of the issue. She has told you exactly what you had to do, and she's right!

Consider: if you had created an atmosphere conducive to sex, you would have had sex. Obvious, right?

But you didn't have sex. So you obviously didn't create an atmosphere conducive to sex.

Is an atmosphere conducive to sex really romantic evenings in cozy lounges, or might it be something else?

She's totally right. It's not about doing all that stuff together, it's about, when the time comes, when you're alone together, making the mmoves. You can't just expect "oh we had a romantic time together now she should fuck me!"

The responsibility is on you. You have to make it happen. It's your job to make it happen. You got very lucky that you met a girl who actually understands and was willing to tell you that it's your job. Listen to her; she's right.

She's not gonna make the sex happen herself. You have to do it.

I can't very well draw explicit attention to the unspoken, but obvious, social debt. It would be crude. If she's not going to make good on it, well, that's her prerogative.

A horrific way to view relationships. Girls don't fuck (in general) because of social debts. SHE DOES NOT OWE YOU SEX. YOU ARE NEVER OWED SEX. You have to make it happen. There was never a debt. She never owed you. You have to make the sex happen. You can't expect her to feel an obligation and initiate on you. You have to initiate on her.

 

[empath]

Is it ridiculous? You've written her advice off without even considering it, but ironically her advice actually addresses the crux of the issue. She has told you exactly what you had to do, and she's right!

Consider: if you had created an atmosphere conducive to sex, you would have had sex. Obvious, right?

But you didn't have sex. So you obviously didn't create an atmosphere conducive to sex.

Is an atmosphere conducive to sex really romantic evenings in cozy lounges, or might it be something else?

She's totally right. It's not about doing all that stuff together, it's about, when the time comes, when you're alone together, making the mmoves. You can't just expect "oh we had a romantic time together now she should fuck me!"

The responsibility is on you. You have to make it happen. It's your job to make it happen. You got very lucky that you met a girl who actually understands and was willing to tell you that it's your job. Listen to her; she's right.

She's not gonna make the sex happen herself. You have to do it.


A horrific way to view relationships. Girls don't fuck (in general) because of social debts. SHE DOES NOT OWE YOU SEX. YOU ARE NEVER OWED SEX. You have to make it happen. There was never a debt. She never owed you. You have to make the sex happen. You can't expect her to feel an obligation and initiate on you. You have to initiate on her.

Just a side note.

I have seen experience/smart girls will avoid letting the guy buy her drinks or pay for dinner exactly for this reason.

She don't want to feel herself being in a debt.

And, to add more when you gave her a romantic experience did she not in turn gave you that as well?

 

[KJ Francis]

I have seen experience/smart girls will avoid letting the guy buy her drinks or pay for dinner exactly for this reason.

She don't want to feel herself being in a debt.

True, but I don't think they believe there's a debt she's obligated to settle. Like you say she wants to avoid the feeling of the guy holding that expectation over her.

 

[empath]

True, but I don't think they believe there's a debt she's obligated to settle. Like you say she wants to avoid the feeling of the guy holding that expectation over her.

Exactly. Generally what has happened with a women in the past is some guy has said to her "I have done xyz for you now you owe me sex".

Then girl thinks idiot doing xyz thing for me does makes me owe you sex or anything (does he thinks I am a hooker).

Now she wants to just avoid this argument or these feelings in the future. So, if she remotely feels that the guy is paying with expecatations of sex, then she better to avoid it.

 

[Marty]

Thanks again, @KJ Francis!

yeah I just mean to think of dating less like a couple's night out and more like your evaluation of her because she wants to get her hands on you (but she can't admit it verbally because of social dangers).

On the “social dangers” point, are these real in this century? Cosmopolitan has been publishing articles with headlines like “How to give him a better blowjob” since the 1970s at least. Most women of reproductive age today, outside of the most conservative regions of the world, have been brought up in an emancipated environment, surely?

Good to see you back, @Tryst, I remember you offered me much helpful advice a few months ago!

SHE DOES NOT OWE YOU SEX.

Well, if you insist on putting it like that, sure, although it seems to me a rather mercenary way of viewing the situation.

On the other hand, it would hardly make sense for me to invite her somewhere again, which is what she was angling for, only to have the same thing happen a second time. A better plan might be to look for a woman who actually likes me as a man.

Is an atmosphere conducive to sex really romantic evenings in cozy lounges, or might it be something else?

What would you suggest instead?

The point I’m getting at, I guess, is that at some stage I run out of further things to offer. You imply that the next step is on me, after completing all the previous steps of getting her air tickets, hotel, restaurant bookings, figuring out what we are going to do… okay I get it, a man has to lead, I have been organizing things all my life. But if I keep going and reach a dead end, surely it is better to try with someone else.

And, to add more when you gave her a romantic experience did she not in turn gave you that as well?

You are saying that I made all these arrangements for my own benefit chiefly. I suppose you have a point. Sure, I had a good time, as expressed in the original report. It’s just that in many places on this forum, and on the accompanying site, it is stated or implied that having intercourse results in a more secure and powerful connection between the man and the woman, if I’ve understood it right. How to express this in polite company, however, remains a mystery. @Tryst just told me it was “horrific“ the way I was looking at the problem. @empath, you’re saying the lady shouldn’t have accepted a dinner invitation from me for the sake of her own protection. Yet the site encourages us to seek sex. You see the dilemma I face, no?

Then girl thinks idiot doing xyz thing for me does makes me owe you sex or anything (does he thinks I am a hooker).

I never used that expression. However, she did give off the general air of being uninterested in serious commitments: See what I wrote above:

This is a lady whose Telegram messaging profile still contains about three dozen pictures, each of her in different, brightly colored, and extremely revealing attire. She described herself to me as "lighthearted" and "easygoing".

 

[OldGuy]

On "social dangers" women are even less likely to do cold approach them men.