Friend is a fashion model- a study + opinions

moom

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I’ve got a 6’4” white friend from Germany, tatted, and extremely good looking. When I go out with this guy it’s almost ridiculous (it’s always been in countries outside of Germany). He’s one of my best friends, and he’s a cool ass dude.

HOT Girls will come up and approach him, sometimes fight for him (i’ve literally seen other girls come and sit on his lap while he’s talking to one girl), I’ve seen girls grab his arm and drag him to their friends, and I’ve been out with him where almost every girl will be staring him down and not looking at anyone else.

Ironically enough, he’s 24 and only slept with only 3 girls. He’s made out with a few and has had some girls in his bed a few times, but he’s horrible at closing (however he’s getting better especially now with some help).

Meanwhile I’m sitting here with 80+ lays and I never have that shit happen to me. I’m also 28, so I do have 4 years on him. Obviously if he got better at game, he’d be closing left and right.

So obviously his fundamentals are phenomenal- he’s got both good looking (naturally) and sexy (learned) down to a fucking pat.

My question is, how do I get to that level? I’d say I’m above average looking base-line, but is it possible to ever get my fundamentals to a level where I could be at the same level (or higher) than this guy? To where I get that same effect of girls practically pulling me in, telling me straight up that they want to fuck me without really any effort, competing for me super obviously? I’m a 5’10” brown guy. I’ve had not so attractive (and at best somewhat cute) girls approach me meekly only, but never more. Obviously looks matter, but so many other things matter more (hence me having more lays by far). Fundamentals play a big role though- has anyone here gotten the kind of results my friend is getting by levelling up their fundementals? If so, what was your baseline? Does it matter? I’m hyper competitive so I’d love some answers here lol

-mo
 
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pancakemouse

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No. Game affects close rate, looks affect open rate.

Women can't smell your "game" from across the room.

This situation is akin to you having enough skill to walk onto a D2 college basketball team as a point guard, but somehow being jealous of your untrained friend that can dunk a basketball and get a couple "wows" from some passerby just because he's tall.

You MOG him. You have 80+ lays, that's elite tier for your age. He has 4. Control your ego and need for validation and continue working on your own game (and looks, of course, but realize you'll never become model-tier from looksmaxxing.
 

moom

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No. Game affects close rate, looks affect open rate.

Women can't smell your "game" from across the room.

This situation is akin to you having enough skill to walk onto a D2 college basketball team as a point guard, but somehow being jealous of your untrained friend that can dunk a basketball and get a couple "wows" from some passerby just because he's tall.

You MOG him. You have 80+ lays, that's elite tier for your age. He has 4. Control your ego and need for validation and continue working on your own game (and looks, of course, but realize you'll never become model-tier from looksmaxxing.
I like the analogy- not really jealous, more just competitive. + seems whenever we meet women together, the girls i open generally just want him lmao. He’s not trying to outcompete me, it just happens.

Take for example, i grabbed this girls number on Christmas day and the first thing she asked was about him
 

pancakemouse

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He's not outcompeting you.

He has 4 lays. You have 80.

The point of this game is ejaculating fresh loads into female vaginas, not getting female adulation and attention.

Now, could he get to the point where he's outslaying you? Yes. Fairly trivially. Tough. That's the way life works. Just be glad that this is Game and not the NBA, where a 5'10" guy you wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of making it to the elite level.
 

moom

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He's not outcompeting you.

He has 4 lays. You have 80.

The point of this game is ejaculating fresh loads into female vaginas, not getting female adulation and attention.

Now, could he get to the point where he's outslaying you? Yes. Fairly trivially. Tough. That's the way life works. Just be glad that this is Game and not the NBA, where a 5'10" guy you wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of making it to the elite level.
Haha alright, I'll admit, I do chase after female adoration and validation to some degree. But don't we all? Isn't that way many of us get into the game in the first place, because we never got that adoration when we were younger?
 

metalbird

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I also have a friend who is a 24 yo male fashion model. He was born in Africa but was adopted into the USA as a baby. Probably the most physically attractive guy I've ever laid eyes on. I've witnessed all the behaviors you've described from women around him -- although his body count is a fair bit higher than 4, he's not a "PUA" so much as a natural, who slept with a dozen women before he was even 17, etc.

While being naturally (ie genetically) EXTREMELY good looking is a prerequisite for reaching that level, I will add that there's much more to it than just being a well-formed body and face. The way you dress and present yourself plays an even bigger role than your looks.

Fashion models are models for a reason... my friend always wears the latest styles, top-tier fits (not designer but close), collects apple watches, shoes, etc. He takes 7+ supplements daily. His work days begin with basically a full-works salon treatment. His skin is immaculate. His teeth are immaculate (after top-tier dental work, even though they weren't bad to begin with). His hair and face are always perfectly groomed.

Also, not only does the quality of how dress matter, but what you communicate with your style matters. In fact, it's probably the single biggest factor in getting "aggressive" chase behavior from women. I don't have the fashion knowledge or language to explain it, but there's something about the way that my friend dresses in terms of style that makes him just look like a hot, fun, dtf guy. I don't think he would get the same results if he wore, say, a custom Armani suit, or Lululemon fitness attire, even though those are high quality threads... He's got a particular way of looking that creates a vibe. The clothes that he wears never looks like any outfit I've seen on another guy, yet somehow it doesn't look weird or out of place. It's like it's just an extension of his "unique" personality. Maybe someone with more fashion expertise can explain it better than me.

Finally, there's a lot to be said for the tendencies in body language and posture that come from being in front of a camera all day. It's almost like being an actor, but instead of learning a whole range of emotional displays, models literally just learn to be seductive/hot and convey those vibes.

TLDR:

Yes looks matter considerably, but if you had the level of personal care, style/dress, and body language of a male fashion model, you'd probably get a lot closer to getting the same reactions from women as your friend than if you just magically got better looking, without improving the other stuff.
 

Beam

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I'm similar to you - 5'9 and brown. Good looking (enough strangers and friends - girls and guys have told me over the years so I believe it) but get similar reactions on a standard night out that you. Couple stares, occasionally get approached by cute girls, most interactions with hot girls don't go far when I approach (still working on it). I have an experience which may help.

May this year my housemate threw a disco themed party. Last minute I hired a costume that sort of made me look like this. Fake dark brown fro (it looked real), blue shirt, black disco pants and white platform shoes which made me quite a bit taller. As soon as I put the costume on in the shop the staff wanted to take photos to put up on their instagram page - a random cute brunette girl started paying attention and smiling telling me how good it looked, two randoms who walked in (a guy and his pretty cute gf) did the same.

We went to lawn bowls first, and all the old ladies behind my back were telling my housemate/her friends how amazing I looked (so I heard). Housemates friends were even staring, and making more of an effort to make conversation.

At night, went out to the town. It was kind of ridiculous - stares, smiles from really hot girls, multiple girls wanting photos and telling me how sexy I was and how they loved me. Girls in the line acting coy - one pretty hot one in front of me turned, told me matter of factly that I looked so good then turned back to her friends again. Hot girls blowing me kisses, getting crowds of girls on the dancefloor, girls initiating conversations then offering me e-cigs, one hottie who looked really young pulling me away from other girls to dance and telling me how handsome I was. Guys and girls telling me I deserve to skip the line and go to the front (bouncer said no). Hit on by gay guys, even guys wouldn't stop coming up to complement me. One of my housemates pretty hot friends who was pretty cool but friendly with me at the start of the night was hanging around me quite a bit later - telling me how ridiculous it was how much attention I was getting while not being able to contain her smile. Still didn't close because I was overwhelmed by all the attention and felt like I couldn't live up to this image everyone had of me.

Basically, that night I looked like I was a celebrity and the girls responded as such. It was peacocking to the extreme, but it showed that it's possible. It was a bit depressing in a way - that night was so fun and I'm guessing that's what nights out for your friend are like all the time.

But it showed that it's possible. I've been trying to find a way to stand out like I did that night all the time (obviously I can't go out with a fake fro and disco outfit all the time, that would be ridiculous) but I don't think I'll ever get to that level consistently. Which is ok to accept. One quick solution is height boosting shoes (I've had a couple delivered recently but haven't yet worn them on a night out. Wearing deep v-necks to show off your chest as well and tight clothes to show off your body.

Find ways to look like a celebrity. There a a lot of good looking dudes out there, but celebrities, that's something else. I'm continuing to work on this and since we're similar let me know if you find something that works for you and I'll do the same.
 
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moom

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I also have a friend who is a 24 yo male fashion model. He was born in Africa but was adopted into the USA as a baby. Probably the most physically attractive guy I've ever laid eyes on. I've witnessed all the behaviors you've described from women around him -- although his body count is a fair bit higher than 4, he's not a "PUA" so much as a natural, who slept with a dozen women before he was even 17, etc.

While being naturally (ie genetically) EXTREMELY good looking is a prerequisite for reaching that level, I will add that there's much more to it than just being a well-formed body and face. The way you dress and present yourself plays an even bigger role than your looks.

Fashion models are models for a reason... my friend always wears the latest styles, top-tier fits (not designer but close), collects apple watches, shoes, etc. He takes 7+ supplements daily. His work days begin with basically a full-works salon treatment. His skin is immaculate. His teeth are immaculate (after top-tier dental work, even though they weren't bad to begin with). His hair and face are always perfectly groomed.

Also, not only does the quality of how dress matter, but what you communicate with your style matters. In fact, it's probably the single biggest factor in getting "aggressive" chase behavior from women. I don't have the fashion knowledge or language to explain it, but there's something about the way that my friend dresses in terms of style that makes him just look like a hot, fun, dtf guy. I don't think he would get the same results if he wore, say, a custom Armani suit, or Lululemon fitness attire, even though those are high quality threads... He's got a particular way of looking that creates a vibe. The clothes that he wears never looks like any outfit I've seen on another guy, yet somehow it doesn't look weird or out of place. It's like it's just an extension of his "unique" personality. Maybe someone with more fashion expertise can explain it better than me.

Finally, there's a lot to be said for the tendencies in body language and posture that come from being in front of a camera all day. It's almost like being an actor, but instead of learning a whole range of emotional displays, models literally just learn to be seductive/hot and convey those vibes.

TLDR:

Yes looks matter considerably, but if you had the level of personal care, style/dress, and body language of a male fashion model, you'd probably get a lot closer to getting the same reactions from women as your friend than if you just magically got better looking, without improving the other stuff.
This is a super interesting perspective. This model friend of mine has been helping me revamp my whole style and its starting to slowly look more rockstar-esque. Also, getting a few more tatts to really stand out.

My teeth, hair, skin, and nails are pretty close to immaculate as well. My body is the one thing that needs to be worked on, with being about 25-30 pounds overweight.

It’s good to know its possible- I believe 2022 is the year my fundementals really go to the next level with a mix of awesome fashion and taking my body and tatts to the next level.

Thanks for this response.
 

moom

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I'm similar to you - 5'9 and brown. Good looking (enough strangers and friends - girls and guys have told me over the years so I believe it) but get similar reactions on a standard night out that you. Couple stares, occasionally get approached by cute girls, most interactions with hot girls don't go far when I approach (still working on it). I have an experience which may help.

May this year my housemate threw a disco themed party. Last minute I hired a costume that sort of made me look like this. Fake dark brown fro (it looked real), blue shirt, black disco pants and white platform shoes which made me quite a bit taller. As soon as I put the costume on in the shop the staff wanted to take photos to put up on their instagram page - a random cute brunette girl started paying attention and smiling telling me how good it looked, two randoms who walked in (a guy and his pretty cute gf) did the same.

We went to lawn bowls first, and all the old ladies behind my back were telling my housemate/her friends how amazing I looked (so I heard). Housemates friends were even staring, and making more of an effort to make conversation.

At night, went out to the town. It was kind of ridiculous - stares, smiles from really hot girls, multiple girls wanting photos and telling me how sexy I was and how they loved me. Girls in the line acting coy - one pretty hot one in front of me turned, told me matter of factly that I looked so good then turned back to her friends again. Hot girls blowing me kisses, getting crowds of girls on the dancefloor, girls initiating conversations then offering me e-cigs, one hottie who looked really young pulling me away from other girls to dance and telling me how handsome I was. Guys and girls telling me I deserve to skip the line and go to the front (bouncer said no). Hit on by gay guys, even guys wouldn't stop coming up to complement me. One of my housemates pretty hot friends who was pretty cool but friendly with me at the start of the night was hanging around me quite a bit later - telling me how ridiculous it was how much attention I was getting while not being able to contain her smile. Still didn't close because I was overwhelmed by all the attention and felt like I couldn't live up to this image everyone had of me.

Basically, that night I looked like I was a celebrity and the girls responded as such. It was peacocking to the extreme, but it showed that it's possible. It was a bit depressing in a way - that night was so fun and I'm guessing that's what nights out for your friend are like all the time.

But it showed that it's possible. I've been trying to find a way to stand out like I did that night all the time (obviously I can't go out with a fake fro and disco outfit all the time, that would be ridiculous) but I don't think I'll ever get to that level consistently. Which is ok to accept. One quick solution is height boosting shoes (I've had a couple delivered recently but haven't yet worn them on a night out. Wearing deep v-necks to show off your chest as well and tight clothes to show off your body.

Find ways to look like a celebrity. There a a lot of good looking dudes out there, but celebrities, that's something else. I'm continuing to work on this and since we're similar let me know if you find something that works for you and I'll do the same.
This is super interesting and not an experience that I would have expected. I have had nights that were 50-70% like this but not as extreme.

We know the base fundamentals so its just about maximising those i suppose. Tbh, I cant really complain anyways, still have a long ways to go with my body
 

Beck Bass

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Fundamentals play a big role though- has anyone here gotten the kind of results my friend is getting by levelling up their fundementals? If so, what was your baseline? Does it matter? I’m hyper competitive so I’d love some answers here lol
I always got looks from cute girls and stuff like that, but when I reaaally worked on my fundies hard some years ago, even the hottest chicks would look down when I stared at them, and I would get freebies on clubs, like girls literally coming to me and making out agressively after staring a bit, or other girls like "hey, do you wanna make out with my friend?", and then her friend is like fiiine.
These girls were a least a bit drunk though, during the day (and with them sober), it would take some social momentum (like people treating me like the boss of the group of something) and good situation for that type of stuff to happen.
Also it wasn't that common, some nights it happened, but in most I would only get warmer receptions from girls, or not even that, on some rare bad nights (when my vibe was off, for the most part).

I think what has the biggest impact is your body language and social proof, like if you have good posture and move slowly, like you're in command, you look like a boss. Having a couple of cool friends, or making friends with some cool group when going out solo, can make a big diff too (also girls seeing you making out or just flirting with a hot girl, preselection is king). Dressing well also is a big factor, being stylish makes you stand out.
I'm like 6'0 and mostly Italian descent, though I have a bit of a Middle Eastern edge from my little Turkish descent, I can get tanned pretty easily, so most the time I have at least a bit of a tan going. People also say I have wide shoulders, which I think helps. Facial hair also is a factor, I have a full beard most the time, though I keep it trimmed. If I wanna look younger, I'll generally shave a bit more and get a bit of a lighter beard going on, or even a stubble, as @Chase shows in this article.
 

moom

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or he's just lazy and uninterested because he has women throwing themselves at him
That may be a little bit with girls he’s not attracted to but really its just his game is not the best lol- great conversationalist, everything else sucks
 

ulrich

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I wonder how attainability plays a part of this.

Women don’t throw themselves at me too much but I think it is also because I don’t look exactly harmless.
I mean I am no model, but girls can tell that if they sit on my lap, I’m going to do something about it.
So most of them don’t play with fire.

I wonder if your friend has a combination of very sexy, very charismatic and somewhat naive… like if girls know they can bait him and there’s low danger in doing so… like if they know they can handle HIM.

Just wondering… maybe this is the case, maybe not…
 

Sully

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If the guy is getting girls hooked to him like crazy then there must be something he must be doing really well. You can try to to what he does and see the results for yourself. If it's mostly because of his fundamentals (looks, fashion, body language, etc) there isn't much you can do except improve your fundamentals.

Also why does it matter to you to beat another guy in Game? Better to concentrate on improving yours for the sake of yourself, isn't it?

Imagine if Kobe Bryant said he practiced basketball because he wanted to beat some other guy.
 

Will_V

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Do you know for a fact that all this attention translates even close to 1-1 to sexy time?

Remember, you are watching him in a social environment, where status rules. Girls have gone there (amongst other things) to compete with eachother on status. Of course every girl wants to be the one to be seen reeling in the prize fish. But together with this competitive pressure comes competitive anxiety - the kind of anxiety that might quickly backfire into attainability issues when she's alone with someone.

I'm a good looking guy but not model level at all, at least not traditionally (although I've had it suggested a couple of times that I should try it, I don't think it's physical what they were mainly responding to). I have virtually never been approached by a girl, though I get a good amount of IOIs. So I don't have direct experience of what's being described, but I do understand some fundamental things, and I know how to observe.

...

What I have found personally is that while IOIs are a function of how you look, what makes a girl comfortable to get sexual with you is what I think of as 'like her last boyfriend but spicier'. Basically, a guy who is on her level, who she is generally comfortable with, but who seems to have access to an extra layer of experience that she wants to be part of. Someone who has found a way to make the world that she is part of (the one she experiences every day) more fun, more playful, more exciting, more varied and interesting.

If you think about it, let's say a girl bangs a guy who's a stunner looks-wise. Unless she can keep him around for a while and parade him to her friends, what does she gain from it in the long run? The sex and conversation probably isn't above average. She'll probably lose him quickly to some hyper-competitive girl who's willing to go to any lengths. And if she can't keep him, what does it say about her? In a way the experience is a reproach to herself that she's only good enough to bang.

Now let's say there's a guy who's on her level in SMV or whatever you want to call it, but he's funny, spontaneous, she doesn't notice time going by when she's talking to him, he fucks her really well and gives her the opportunity to explore dirty stuff without being judgemental, takes her on unusual adventures every now and then. With him, she gets to explore how much her life could be better every day, how much she can squeeze out of it, she can create a bubble with him in which her inner feminine sprite can run wild. Whereas the other guy is only worthwhile to make her friends jealous.

...

I remember Chase wrote somewhere in an article that if you actually pay attention as you walk around, hot women are not going around on the arm of model guys as some kind of rule, and I can vouch for this. Often he looks a lot worse than her - I saw a model looking girl the other day with a dude that looked like a 4/10 at best in terms of his natural gifts, and her body language was very good toward him. I see all the time 16-19 y/o kittens with scruffy skinny bums, completely in their frame.

So that's why I think it's important to separate the kind of response that is triggered by competitive anxiety from the kind of response that we are all actually looking for - a girl who's happy to come back home and give herself to an experience with you.

I'm sure it helps to look like a runway model, and I'm sure it helps with one night stands with club queens and status competitors, but I doubt that it translates anywhere near 1-1 to actual results for most girls, even when you equalize for game. I might be wrong - I'm certainly not in that league looks wise, so I don't have direct experience - but what I can observe suggests that the men women actually pick have a lot less to do with whether he's shockingly good looking and more about what he can really give her while she's with him.
 

Beck Bass

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Duuudes, the discussion is kinda going nowhere, though I agree with pretty much everything that was said, what @moom asked was how to get to that level of fundamentals... And well, natural looks do have a part, unfortunately, though I would say body language and social skill/dominance is way more than impressive than how you do look, objectivelly. Also it's a known factor that you can work on 90% of the way you look, as @Beam pointed you, you can even get taller with the right shoes, though maybe it's not that feasible on everyday situations.

If @moom is a beginner, I would suggest him to not get too fixated on looks/fundamentals/whatever, and work more on his game and overcoming approach anxiety, but working on fundamentals is always important (honestly, in my experience, eye contact, posture and moving slowly/in a controlled, badass way is way more important than your body or how you dress)
 

Rakehell

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So obviously his fundamentals are phenomenal- he’s got both good looking (naturally) and sexy (learned) down to a fucking pat.


is it possible to ever get my fundamentals to a level where I could be at the same level (or higher) than this guy?
Doubt it (and if you could i’ve never seen such a person), you could get the sexy down for sure, or style yourself like a “sex god”. But when a guy exceedingly handsome has sexy down too I just don’t think working on your posture or body language is gonna cut it if you’re trying to compete in immediate attraction. You’d get pretty good results becoming more sexy though so it’s benificial. (Assuming you haven’t done this already). And making your vibe more sensual.

But if a guy has model tier looks and follows all of that advice too i’m not sure thats someone you’d want to compete with in that aspect. (Assuming he objectively is more physically appealing) I feel like naturally attractive people looksmax anyway. Spending alot of time in the mirror, trying to replicate the attention you receive, working on your walk, and voice. It’s like looksmaxmax.

Imo, looks ≠ sex appeal, but sex appeal + good looks is one hell of a combination.

Good news for you atleast is it’s not all berries and cream for him. I can tell you from personal experience that gaming when girl’s are acting weird over your looks comes with it’s own set of difficulties.
 
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moom

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I wonder how attainability plays a part of this.

Women don’t throw themselves at me too much but I think it is also because I don’t look exactly harmless.
I mean I am no model, but girls can tell that if they sit on my lap, I’m going to do something about it.
So most of them don’t play with fire.

I wonder if your friend has a combination of very sexy, very charismatic and somewhat naive… like if girls know they can bait him and there’s low danger in doing so… like if they know they can handle HIM.

Just wondering… maybe this is the case, maybe not…
My friend I think pulls off a very sexy yet attainable look.

It’s funny, been going out more with him this week- he definitely gets more approach invitations from hotter girls than we do but not by much. Some nights if his vibe is on, he’ll get approached by girls or get obvious approach invites but some nights he won’t get anything. Not as extreme as I first thought
 

moom

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Duuudes, the discussion is kinda going nowhere, though I agree with pretty much everything that was said, what @moom asked was how to get to that level of fundamentals... And well, natural looks do have a part, unfortunately, though I would say body language and social skill/dominance is way more than impressive than how you do look, objectivelly. Also it's a known factor that you can work on 90% of the way you look, as @Beam pointed you, you can even get taller with the right shoes, though maybe it's not that feasible on everyday situations.

If @moom is a beginner, I would suggest him to not get too fixated on looks/fundamentals/whatever, and work more on his game and overcoming approach anxiety, but working on fundamentals is always important (honestly, in my experience, eye contact, posture and moving slowly/in a controlled, badass way is way more important than your body or how you dress)
Not beginner + my friend has 4 lays and I’ve got 80+ which is why this whole thing was interesting to me in the first place. I’m not trying to bring the overplayed looks argument back here- just asking about other people’s experiences with this.

A realisation I had this week is that it’s not nearly as extreme as I thought- the girls that approach him are cuter than girls that approach me but not really hot (our ideal girls). Also, even though hes a fashion model, there have definitely been moments where we open a two set and girls show equal interest to us both
 

ZacAdam

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Meanwhile I’m sitting here with 80+ lays and I never have that shit happen to me

No average guy reach 80 lays so easily. You are so out of touch with reality. You are already considered "good".

And this goes to my point.


Ironically enough, he’s 24 and only slept with only 3 girls. He’s made out with a few and has had some girls in his bed a few times, but he’s horrible at closing (however he’s getting better especially now with some help).

Reality.
Reality.
Reality.

If you read most of the guys here including myself, all of them could get at least 50 lays just after reading Girlschase.

But as you said: Closing.
That's one part and there's lots of parts of game and luck playing all at once.

Reality. Reality is important.

There's a saying by Chase. I'm not sure how accurate this is. "you can get 100 lays and still be kinda not familiar with girls."

Props to your 80 lays. If it's quality you like, I'm happy, genuinely happy for you. But really. I do feel that most of this '100 lays unlock' among PUA forums are females that are 'low hanging fruit'. You should not be jealous given how you have your stats, unless the prior is what is missing.

I see them as guys who spent thousands of dollars on Facebook ads and gets success. Which is something I sincerely can learn from. Have a thick uncombustible ego that you can get rejected like crazy and still feel empowered to reach 100 lays.

z@c+
 
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