Gameness

[Will_V]

As I've mentioned before, I'm a sailor and spend a lot of time on boats, and in relation to that I recently had a run-in with someone in a position of authority who could have caused me a lot of trouble.

Today we had a meeting about the issue, and in the end I got away scot-free. And I'm certain that the main reason for that was that he liked me.

I've always had the ability to be likeable to pretty much anyone I want to. It's a powerful advantage, not only in terms of negotiations (especially when you are not in a great position) but is probably also my main advantage when it comes to seduction.

Being likeable can be a little difficult to define. Does it mean being submissive and compliant? Not really, or it wouldn't work for seduction, at least not with the kind of women I'm into. What then is it that can work to both make other men like you and women want to submit to you?

I was reflecting on this when I saw the thread today about the 'friendly agreeable voice'. I think that discussions about social dynamics very often get caught up in a binary concept of 'commanding' and 'submissive', 'alpha' and 'beta', etc, when in fact there are other dimensions of social persuasion that are orthogonal to those, which have a lot more ability to penetrate the consciousness of a person. In part, I believe this occurs because they bypass the normal 'rules' of the social armwrestling game, and their ambiguity makes people much more open and curious to them, which also opens them up to being influenced by them.

...

When the time for the meeting was approaching, I was considering what would be my best strategy. Should I come in on the offensive to seem like I was too much trouble to bother with? Should I focus on a very strong, unarguable defense that would make the other person see that I was right? Should I try to look compliant and submissive? Should I even just sail off and hope they would forget about me? The truth is there were a lot of unknowns as to what their position and course of action would be, and I could easily make a blunder by reading the situation badly and coming in with the wrong approach.

After meditating and letting the question simmer in my mind a bit, I decided that I would try to sidestep the problem by being likeable, at least until I had enough information as to where things were headed.

And it worked, with the issue pretty much dismissed. But what exactly did I do and why did it work?

...

The first thing to realize about being likeable is that someone can like you and still not respect you, and that's a very vulnerable position to be in. Instinctively, people try to take advantage of someone in this position - you become that person's 'mascot' which they milk to feed their self esteem. You become a provider of good feelings, but that person does not feel compelled in any way by you - men will treat you as low in the hierarchy, and women will chat cheerfully with you and then not answer your messages.

How then do you become both likeable and respected? The word that best describes the answer is 'gameness'.

There are many ways to define 'gameness', as it is a state or attribute that pulls in a lot of different other attributes into one. I will try to add a few more terms that describe gameness each from a different angle.

The main one is enthusiasm. As they say, enthusiasm is the nectar of the gods. It is neither a dominant nor submissive expression - I love women who are enthusiastic, and have very little time for bland unenthusiastic women even if they are relatively hot. And yet I seduce them primarily with my own enthusiasm. How is this so? Because enthusiasm is simply a state of positive, energetic, action-oriented being. Men enjoy being around, and are influenced by, other men who are enthusiastic. It is a state of being that everyone wishes to be in, and especially to remain in this state amidst the problems and trials of life is incredibly captivating to others. It is very much the secret sauce of existence.

The next term that approaches defining 'gameness' is readiness. Readiness is similar to being present, it describes a state of having all your energy and faculties under your control and ready to deploy, and not captured or tangled up by distractions and anxieties. Readiness is both compelling and intimidating to others, and instinctively puts them in a state of observation and makes them pause their own actions, often subconsciously, as they try to understand what your readiness is all about. In effect, it puts you in the drivers seat and them in the passenger seat of the interaction, and when you are subtle enough not to trigger their threat response, it gives you plenty of opportunity to lead things.

Gameness also requires being a very unconflicted individual, partly because internal conflict and readiness are mutually exclusive, and partly because being deeply calm, relaxed, and present is a requirement for being able to fully express the more ambiguous emotions and states that are not the typical knee-jerk reactions that people live their lives by on a daily basis. Any knee-jerk emotion that you wear on your face triggers people's filters and tendency to categorize, and cuts off the openness and curiosity that they would otherwise need to bring out to understand and define you as a person.

Lastly, gameness is defined by a sense of positivity and welcoming the future toward you, and in this it is very much a transfer of positive emotion that is not focused on the other person but at life in general, and this makes it very compelling. It requires some level of being able to embrace chaos and uncertainty with relish, as if moving around in such circumstances is something you have an affinity for, and makes you seem like someone whose position in life could change very quickly based on the way you respond to threats and opportunities, which captures women's love for drama, intrigue, and change in general.

...

For those of you who learn best by example, I believe the actor who best represents 'gameness' as a personality trait is Leonardo Dicaprio. He is not a typical 'alpha' like for example the Rock, yet he is certainly not a submissive person, and when you think about it there is probably no other actor who is more naturally persuasive (e.g. in Catch Me If You Can). You get the sense that regardless of his position he is destined to win, and even if he was cornered he would somehow come out on top by some twist of fate, and yet he is not an insufferable person in any way, quite the contrary.

Women love this because adaptability, not raw strength, is what nature values the most. And it reaches across hierarchies and classes, and even revels in its ability to confound them, (e.g. in Titanic).

...

Gameness is a definite concept, yet it can and should be tempered depending on the situation. In the case of my run-in with authority, I tempered it with politeness, courteousness, and coming across as a reliable person. With women, it's usually good to temper it with a touch of recklessness and sexual aggression. But the core of it is the same in all situations, and this universality, combined with its captivating and compelling nature, is what makes it one of the most useful attributes to cultivate. Because in the end, it makes someone like you, and when they like you, they will do things for you that they don't need to do, but want to do.

In my situation, this guy who could have caused me problems chose not to. At the end of the meeting he pretended to consider his options, but his expression betrayed that he had already made up his mind long before. And I did not have to act aggressive or submissive to get what I wanted, but simply expressed myself in a way that made the original problem seem like the least important part of the dynamic between us.

Especially with women, it's very important to be able to make some things seem completely unimportant when, around other guys, she would be forced to enter into a game for which judging that thing is one of its primary rules. It is in this space of ambiguity, this redefining of reality, this type of frame control, that true persuasion offers all its opportunities, that spontaneity can commandeer an agenda, and you compel not by being alpha or beta, dominant or submissive, but through leading by example and making people want to be there with you, rather than control you.

 

[Gladiator]

That was a good read @Will_V .

How then do you become both likeable and respected? The word that best describes the answer is 'gameness'.

Your "how" seems to be coming across as "what" to me, for "Gameness" or perhaps I'm being a bit pedantic about your lexicon.
Anyway, Gameness can be achieved by:
1. Meditation?
2. Practice?
3. Natural skills?
4. Resilience?
6. Visualization?
7. Faking it till you make it?
8. Just letting go and letting be? (In a spiritual sense)
9. .. or all of the above?

P.S: I thought that was gold albeit with this missing piece in the puzzle

 

[Will_V]

That was a good read @Will_V .



Your "how" seems to be coming across as "what" to me, for "Gameness" or perhaps I'm being a bit pedantic about your lexicon.
Anyway, Gameness can be achieved by:
1. Meditation?
2. Practice?
3. Natural skills?
4. Resilience?
6. Visualization?
7. Faking it till you make it?
8. Just letting go and letting be? (In a spiritual sense)
9. .. or all of the above?

P.S: I thought that was gold albeit with this missing piece in the puzzle

That's a good question that's not easy to answer. I think gameness is partly a personality trait, partly a way of life, and partly something that can be learned as a skill. How much of the whole each of these parts make it up I don't know.

The word 'gameness' if you look it up has a few different definitions. Now I wasn't exactly consciously aware of them when the word occurred to me, my subconscious sometimes supplies me with terminology that only later I discover all the connections to.

One of the definitions is:

Game or Gameness is a quality of fighting dogs or working terriers that are selectively bred and conditioned from a very early age to develop traits of eagerness despite the threat of substantive injury. Dogs displaying this trait can also be described as persevering, ready and willing, full of fight, spirited, or plucky.

Now if you know how to make gameness occur in humans at will, I'm sure there are a lot of sports coaches and drill sergeants who would like to talk to you. Because I do believe that at the core of it, gameness (or at least a great deal of what constitutes it) is not about seduction but about the desire to fully exist, to self-actualize, in the face of risk and uncertainty. It is in that respect a primitive instinct that goes down, if not to the level of DNA, at least into the deepest parts of the psyche that defy logical understanding and discernment.

But while that's interesting it's not very useful, so I will try to pull out a little bit more of what gameness is (and maybe bore you a bit!) while hopefully making it clearer how to become it.
...

I believe that at the core of the ability to connect deeply with other people, to persuade, to have charisma, is the desire to live out a part of your own existence in the minds of others.

There are levels to this: everyone wants to be validated in some way, to be popular, to be recognized and applauded for being a 'good' person, to be loved and cherished. This is a simple relationship between the observer and the observed.

But for some people it goes a lot further than that. It is a profound desire to constitute oneself, at least partly, through the way that other people experience one's existence - not simply through that person's direct validation, but by having other people see reality your way, by having them live out your ideologies and surrender to life inside the bubble of your reality.

Now while this sounds a bit strange, it's really not a rare thing. It's a natural part of the way that human beings interact, coopt eachother's investment into enterprises of their own, and compete for influence. It is in that sense a life skill, a psychological survival skill, and a fully functional part of the web of human interactions. Without it, Steve Jobs would never have invented anything, kings would never have been able to lead anyone into war, and men would not be able to seduce beautiful women away from the set path of their socially constructed lives and into adventure.

I believe that anyone who loves seduction as an art, rather than simply wanting to get laid in the simplest possible way, is driven in part by this desire.

Because that's what seduction is: it is not simply a sexual act, it is the act of taking a woman out of her reality and into yours, and having her want to immerse herself in it naked.

For many guys who simply want to get laid, I believe one of the things that makes it difficult is that they don't get any reward from existing in the mind of the woman, and this makes the whole thing seem like a lopsided 'value exchange' in her favor. But for a seducer, there is a lot more at play: he seeks to steal the woman's entire reality, her deepest desires, all the energy of her libido and self expression, and make every part of her dance to his tune. That for him is what makes seduction profoundly satisfying.

And because his identity is at stake - remember, he wants to exist through her experience of him - it is something that the entire force of his personality gets behind and expresses itself through, because without it a part of him is 'dead'.

Now while there are some people who want this to be an entirely one-sided thing, there are other people who are driven also by the desire to construct and actualize the potential of other people. So in this case, it's more of a desire to be the conduit through which the other person develops themselves and enhances their own experience of life. The other person is still surrendering to your reality and frame - but your reality and frame are made up of universally enriching ideals and concepts, or even adapted partly to them and their circumstances in such a way as to benefit them. And you get to enjoy the result.

Now what does this have to do with gameness? Well, what is it that makes someone eager to face risk and uncertainty? I can't speak for dogs, but for humans I believe it is fundamentally a desire not to let someone or something (an ideal) down. In this sense gameness refers to looking at life as a performance which cannot be disappointing to an audience whose opinion is highly valued. Is that not living through someone's experience of you?

If you look at highly charismatic people, I believe you will find that they are usually driven by an intense desire to prove themselves and live up to the expectations of someone - someone who may already exist, or who may have never existed. This is what makes them profoundly effective - they understand very well the 'orbital dynamics' of human relationships, and although they are often willing to dominate relationships with others, they are not selfish in the basic sense of the word and will often be able to sacrifice a lot more than anyone else to achieve their goals, because they don't value themselves so much as the object of their need for validation.
...

So the first thing I would say that one should acquire to 'have' gameness, is a deep desire to prove oneself, to live up to an ideal existence, even if that ideal existence is a spontaneous, present occurrence and not some lofty goal. Because this is the core of what makes someone ready to fight, through risk, uncertainty, pain, despair, and at the end of it all to be able to offer to others not anger and resentment, but a perspective on the potentiality of life that other people are drawn toward. Think about Dicaprio's character in Titanic - he was poor and had every right to be another miserable sod in the queue, and yet something drove him to want to not only face hardship but somehow find the beauty and possibility in everything. That is what set him apart from everyone else hanging out in the bilge of the ship.

And isn't it interesting that Dicaprio himself was born to 'bohemian' parents in a neighborhood full of crime and poverty?

Like this Girls Chase article alludes to, the ability to compel other people has a lot to do with your sense of mission, whether you have something that is greater than yourself, a kind of ideology, that drives you through any kind of difficulty and and through all the nihilism that life tends to produce in those who are weak of mind, in search of something ideal and meaningful. When you sacrifice yourself to that, other people want to give themselves to you in the hopes that you make that ideal real in them - or, failing that, to simply have the satisfaction of helping you and watching you bring it into fruition. Because if the interactions you have with people are focused on nothing more than a transaction of goods, it becomes a negotiation in which they want to make sure they get at least as much from you as you from them, if not more. But when it is about something beyond just what you want from her and what she wants from you, it is not a zero sum game any more, but the shared experience of an ideal.

The second thing I think is necessary for gameness, at least in terms of influencing others, is to be deeply interested in people and human experience in general. Remember Dicaprio's french girls? That is what makes artists so alluring, they immerse themselves in studying, reformulating, and expressing the human experience and that makes them valuable to almost everyone. They are a wildcard - someone who does not improve some specific material aspect of your life, but can potentially improve the way you experience reality itself. That is what makes them appealing to people at completely different levels of society.

When you spend a lot of time studying the strange creature known as a human being, it also just 'shows' in the way you interact. Where others are always competing and negotiating, you simply want to see, understand, and enjoy. And this makes people much more open to you in ways that they cannot be around others.

And at the end of the day, what is idealism if not the desire to improve the human lot? Being interested in people feeds in multitudes of ways into your charisma and ability to reach through the layers of social conditioning to a person's real nature.

You mentioned meditation - I think it's one of the most important things anyone can do if they struggle at all with emotions and attention control. I even somewhat regret a post I made some time ago about the limitations of meditation - not because what I wrote was wrong but because overall it's just far too much of a benefit that talking about some small downsides is a bit pointless. I will say about meditation though - meditation works best when some aspect of it is a part of every moment of your life, whatever you are doing. It's very hard to benefit from it when it is isolated into a little routine you do every once in a while. Breathing well, maintaining stillness, and controlling attention is something that can and should be done all the time.

I hope what I wrote is useful. Unfortunately I don't think gameness is something that can be really described by a set of practices. It is probably most of all a way of life, an ideology, or at least a way of dealing with life every day, that can be learned but must be embodied continuously and relished as an ideal, rather than pulled out temporarily as a technique.

 

[Gladiator]

That's a good question that's not easy to answer. I think gameness is partly a personality trait, partly a way of life, and partly something that can be learned as a skill. How much of the whole each of these parts make it up I don't know.

The word 'gameness' if you look it up has a few different definitions. Now I wasn't exactly consciously aware of them when the word occurred to me, my subconscious sometimes supplies me with terminology that only later I discover all the connections to.

One of the definitions is:



Now if you know how to make gameness occur in humans at will, I'm sure there are a lot of sports coaches and drill sergeants who would like to talk to you. Because I do believe that at the core of it, gameness (or at least a great deal of what constitutes it) is not about seduction but about the desire to fully exist, to self-actualize, in the face of risk and uncertainty. It is in that respect a primitive instinct that goes down, if not to the level of DNA, at least into the deepest parts of the psyche that defy logical understanding and discernment.

But while that's interesting it's not very useful, so I will try to pull out a little bit more of what gameness is (and maybe bore you a bit!) while hopefully making it clearer how to become it.
...

I believe that at the core of the ability to connect deeply with other people, to persuade, to have charisma, is the desire to live out a part of your own existence in the minds of others.

There are levels to this: everyone wants to be validated in some way, to be popular, to be recognized and applauded for being a 'good' person, to be loved and cherished. This is a simple relationship between the observer and the observed.

But for some people it goes a lot further than that. It is a profound desire to constitute oneself, at least partly, through the way that other people experience one's existence - not simply through that person's direct validation, but by having other people see reality your way, by having them live out your ideologies and surrender to life inside the bubble of your reality.

Now while this sounds a bit strange, it's really not a rare thing. It's a natural part of the way that human beings interact, coopt eachother's investment into enterprises of their own, and compete for influence. It is in that sense a life skill, a psychological survival skill, and a fully functional part of the web of human interactions. Without it, Steve Jobs would never have invented anything, kings would never have been able to lead anyone into war, and men would not be able to seduce beautiful women away from the set path of their socially constructed lives and into adventure.

I believe that anyone who loves seduction as an art, rather than simply wanting to get laid in the simplest possible way, is driven in part by this desire.

Because that's what seduction is: it is not simply a sexual act, it is the act of taking a woman out of her reality and into yours, and having her want to immerse herself in it naked.

For many guys who simply want to get laid, I believe one of the things that makes it difficult is that they don't get any reward from existing in the mind of the woman, and this makes the whole thing seem like a lopsided 'value exchange' in her favor. But for a seducer, there is a lot more at play: he seeks to steal the woman's entire reality, her deepest desires, all the energy of her libido and self expression, and make every part of her dance to his tune. That for him is what makes seduction profoundly satisfying.

And because his identity is at stake - remember, he wants to exist through her experience of him - it is something that the entire force of his personality gets behind and expresses itself through, because without it a part of him is 'dead'.

Now while there are some people who want this to be an entirely one-sided thing, there are other people who are driven also by the desire to construct and actualize the potential of other people. So in this case, it's more of a desire to be the conduit through which the other person develops themselves and enhances their own experience of life. The other person is still surrendering to your reality and frame - but your reality and frame are made up of universally enriching ideals and concepts, or even adapted partly to them and their circumstances in such a way as to benefit them. And you get to enjoy the result.

Now what does this have to do with gameness? Well, what is it that makes someone eager to face risk and uncertainty? I can't speak for dogs, but for humans I believe it is fundamentally a desire not to let someone or something (an ideal) down. In this sense gameness refers to looking at life as a performance which cannot be disappointing to an audience whose opinion is highly valued. Is that not living through someone's experience of you?

If you look at highly charismatic people, I believe you will find that they are usually driven by an intense desire to prove themselves and live up to the expectations of someone - someone who may already exist, or who may have never existed. This is what makes them profoundly effective - they understand very well the 'orbital dynamics' of human relationships, and although they are often willing to dominate relationships with others, they are not selfish in the basic sense of the word and will often be able to sacrifice a lot more than anyone else to achieve their goals, because they don't value themselves so much as the object of their need for validation.
...

So the first thing I would say that one should acquire to 'have' gameness, is a deep desire to prove oneself, to live up to an ideal existence, even if that ideal existence is a spontaneous, present occurrence and not some lofty goal. Because this is the core of what makes someone ready to fight, through risk, uncertainty, pain, despair, and at the end of it all to be able to offer to others not anger and resentment, but a perspective on the potentiality of life that other people are drawn toward. Think about Dicaprio's character in Titanic - he was poor and had every right to be another miserable sod in the queue, and yet something drove him to want to not only face hardship but somehow find the beauty and possibility in everything. That is what set him apart from everyone else hanging out in the bilge of the ship.

And isn't it interesting that Dicaprio himself was born to 'bohemian' parents in a neighborhood full of crime and poverty?

Like this Girls Chase article alludes to, the ability to compel other people has a lot to do with your sense of mission, whether you have something that is greater than yourself, a kind of ideology, that drives you through any kind of difficulty and and through all the nihilism that life tends to produce in those who are weak of mind, in search of something ideal and meaningful. When you sacrifice yourself to that, other people want to give themselves to you in the hopes that you make that ideal real in them - or, failing that, to simply have the satisfaction of helping you and watching you bring it into fruition. Because if the interactions you have with people are focused on nothing more than a transaction of goods, it becomes a negotiation in which they want to make sure they get at least as much from you as you from them, if not more. But when it is about something beyond just what you want from her and what she wants from you, it is not a zero sum game any more, but the shared experience of an ideal.

The second thing I think is necessary for gameness, at least in terms of influencing others, is to be deeply interested in people and human experience in general. Remember Dicaprio's french girls? That is what makes artists so alluring, they immerse themselves in studying, reformulating, and expressing the human experience and that makes them valuable to almost everyone. They are a wildcard - someone who does not improve some specific material aspect of your life, but can potentially improve the way you experience reality itself. That is what makes them appealing to people at completely different levels of society.

When you spend a lot of time studying the strange creature known as a human being, it also just 'shows' in the way you interact. Where others are always competing and negotiating, you simply want to see, understand, and enjoy. And this makes people much more open to you in ways that they cannot be around others.

And at the end of the day, what is idealism if not the desire to improve the human lot? Being interested in people feeds in multitudes of ways into your charisma and ability to reach through the layers of social conditioning to a person's real nature.

You mentioned meditation - I think it's one of the most important things anyone can do if they struggle at all with emotions and attention control. I even somewhat regret a post I made some time ago about the limitations of meditation - not because what I wrote was wrong but because overall it's just far too much of a benefit that talking about some small downsides is a bit pointless. I will say about meditation though - meditation works best when some aspect of it is a part of every moment of your life, whatever you are doing. It's very hard to benefit from it when it is isolated into a little routine you do every once in a while. Breathing well, maintaining stillness, and controlling attention is something that can and should be done all the time.

I hope what I wrote is useful. Unfortunately I don't think gameness is something that can be really described by a set of practices. It is probably most of all a way of life, an ideology, or at least a way of dealing with life every day, that can be learned but must be embodied continuously and relished as an ideal, rather than pulled out temporarily as a technique.

I like the idea of living a life in that state but I'm a skeptic and makes me wonder how feasible it is to remain in that state, when life'd be throwing curved balls at you.

It's a form of Stoicism, I guess. Going back to a default state of equilibrium guided by the principles you've set out for yourself.
Sasha Daygame once said in a video, at least the ones who're on the journey of self-improvement are on the path of salvation, while the whole world is running the rat race. If I've seen someone who's attained that state of equilibrium in life journey fully, it must be @Chase but not having known his life completely, I'd be curious about his thoughts on this topic.

 

[Will_V]

I like the idea of living a life in that state but I'm a skeptic and makes me wonder how feasible it is to remain in that state, when life'd be throwing curved balls at you.

But then I would ask, what state is there that is more useful and less burdensome to maintain in difficult times? For me, gameness is is a form of escapism into the present moment, if that makes sense. It is much more pleasant than it is to be angry, frustrated or sad.

I don't know how I got to this place - I remember even as a teenager realizing that there was some aspect of constancy and 'normality' that I found insufferable, and that in difficult circumstances, especially those that relied on immediate action, a part of me was 'released' and felt free and calm. I've sometimes thought of it as a disfunctionality of mine but the end result seems to indicate otherwise - I've seen so many people who crumble under the level of psychological difficulty that I've handled.

When it comes to resilience and dealing with stress, what makes things very difficult is when you try to maintain a defensive position. Because your mental armor is always reduced by each hit, and is not replenished, so it becomes only a matter of time until things become substantially worse.

But when you throw yourself forward into the present (and that is what gameness is all about) you are free, mobile, and active, and your primitive core, your inner beast, which is forced to enter a frustrated, passive state when you retreat and become defensive, is free to satisfy itself in pure and unadulterated action.

And perhaps most importantly, the opportunities for respite, pleasure, beauty and discovery that always come even in the worst of circumstances, are fully experienced and enjoyed by a consciousness that is not repressed in any way, that is not struggling to hold onto any illusion, and that is the best way to replenish your drive.

It's a form of Stoicism, I guess. Going back to a default state of equilibrium guided by the principles you've set out for yourself.

Stoicism is an interesting concept that's hard to nail down, especially in this day and age where everyone wants to use it as a prop to peddle self help advice. Over the centuries it took quite different forms - for some it was about hedonism, others it was about ethics, etc.

For me, I don't think it's enough to simply follow principles. What stoicism means to me is accepting fate, essentially. The way I frame it is, there are a lot of things I didn't choose, so there's no point feeling bad about them, but what I am able to do is elevate the present moment as much as possible with my next actions. Life is short and difficult, but my job is to create as much harmony, as many moments of beauty, as possible in the space of that time.

I consider that to be truth - in the sense that everything else is more of an illusion. Everyone has their own beliefs, but I think what most people want to do is not to live forever or completely avoid pain, but to be able to experience life in the most satisfying and meaningful way while they are here. And that is what makes someone who is 'game' to face life and wrest it into something beautiful, even if only for a brief time, very compelling and attractive.

 

[Gladiator]

But then I would ask, what state is there that is more useful and less burdensome to maintain in difficult times? For me, gameness is is a form of escapism into the present moment, if that makes sense. It is much more pleasant than it is to be angry, frustrated or sad.

When I wrote my previous response, I was sitting in the park, thinking deeply about this topic and for a long time I wanted to try this and I also wanted to test this hypothesis of "Gameness". So, I took a deep breath, became completely aware of myself, cleared my mind of any negative emotions such as fear/hesitation and went up to a girl who seemed like she was waiting for someone and said:

Me: Hey (with a smile)
Her: hey (smiling back)
Me: Are you from around here?
Her: No, why?
Me: (I looked around like I was looking for an address).. I'm looking for a Girlfriend around here.. (with a straight face)
She was shocked and looked blank. There was silence for 5-10 secs which felt like an eternity. Then I said, that was a joke with a smirk.
She: Very funny! (Looking unamused)
Me: Are you a shy person?
She: I'm not but I'm not interested in having a conversation with you. (Ouch!)
I said "no worries" and walked away.

I approached her with the mindset that whatever is going to happen, I should remain unperturbed. With so much of mental preparation and going there with a sense of being outcome independent and and despite knowing that there's going to be likely a very negative response for being stupid, do you think I felt normal after that? NO. Although it was not too bad, I must admit there was an unsettling feeling which I was not able to brush it off.

It gave me a lot of insight about myself and how my body and mind are as much conditioned as the society is. For me, that was a joke but not for her. This is what I was talking about. I mean don't take this one example as a reflection of my personality. I'm very strategic in seduction and don't do things like these but I just wanted to test my limits. So, all I'm saying is, although "Gameness" sounds like a sense of freedom, it's easier said than done to achieve it, imo.

What would've been your response if your boss/position of authority that you mentioned in the OP did not like you and indeed caused you trouble? Would you still be remaining in a "Gameness" state? What feelings do you feel and what emotions would've run in your body? This is what I meant by curve-balls, it need not have to be extreme emotions like anger, frustration or sadness.. just a feeling of displeasure and unpleasant emotions.

BTW, I don't know you enough. Maybe you are indeed in that state and I'd be happy to learn from you if you have tips for me to get to that state. This is the premise of my whole discussion. (I may keep an eye on you going forward.. Lol.. jk mate). I liked this post and this discussion. Thanks for posting it.

P.S: When I started the self-improvement journey, I knew I want something else which is not just girls and I couldn't put a finger on what that is. It's more than true-confidence. This post and x-factor from Karea hits close to home. So, when I saw them I felt very excited that finally someone gets it but the "how" seems to be something I can't grapple easily.

 

[TestY]

How then do you become both likeable and respected? The word that best describes the answer is 'gameness'.

There are many ways to define 'gameness', as it is a state or attribute that pulls in a lot of different other attributes into one. I will try to add a few more terms that describe gameness each from a different angle.

The main one is enthusiasm. As they say, enthusiasm is the nectar of the gods. It is neither a dominant nor submissive expression - I love women who are enthusiastic, and have very little time for bland unenthusiastic women even if they are relatively hot. And yet I seduce them primarily with my own enthusiasm. How is this so? Because enthusiasm is simply a state of positive, energetic, action-oriented being. Men enjoy being around, and are influenced by, other men who are enthusiastic. It is a state of being that everyone wishes to be in, and especially to remain in this state amidst the problems and trials of life is incredibly captivating to others. It is very much the secret sauce of existence.

The next term that approaches defining 'gameness' is readiness. Readiness is similar to being present, it describes a state of having all your energy and faculties under your control and ready to deploy, and not captured or tangled up by distractions and anxieties. Readiness is both compelling and intimidating to others, and instinctively puts them in a state of observation and makes them pause their own actions, often subconsciously, as they try to understand what your readiness is all about. In effect, it puts you in the drivers seat and them in the passenger seat of the interaction, and when you are subtle enough not to trigger their threat response, it gives you plenty of opportunity to lead things.

Gameness also requires being a very unconflicted individual, partly because internal conflict and readiness are mutually exclusive, and partly because being deeply calm, relaxed, and present is a requirement for being able to fully express the more ambiguous emotions and states that are not the typical knee-jerk reactions that people live their lives by on a daily basis. Any knee-jerk emotion that you wear on your face triggers people's filters and tendency to categorize, and cuts off the openness and curiosity that they would otherwise need to bring out to understand and define you as a person.

Lastly, gameness is defined by a sense of positivity and welcoming the future toward you, and in this it is very much a transfer of positive emotion that is not focused on the other person but at life in general, and this makes it very compelling. It requires some level of being able to embrace chaos and uncertainty with relish, as if moving around in such circumstances is something you have an affinity for, and makes you seem like someone whose position in life could change very quickly based on the way you respond to threats and opportunities, which captures women's love for drama, intrigue, and change in general.

Gameness and classical manliness
Great topic. Empowered warmth is a powerful direction for one's compass. And gameness does indeed seem to be an undercommunicated ideal in modern society. Perhaps because 'manliness' is not in vogue. The Art of Manliness does bring up 'gameness' as a classical ideal of manliness:

Once a man is in a fight, thumos spurs him on, motivating him to stay in the arena and continue fearlessly striving for victory. This “gameness” is a quality of thumos man shares with the beasts. In Sam Sheridan’s exploration of The Fighter’s Heart, he observes the centrality of gameness in dogfighting. “We almost don’t care how good the dog fights,” he notes, “the fight is just an elaborate test to check his gameness.” Adds a dog trainer Sheridan speaks with: “Give me a game dog any day, a dog that bites as tissue paper but keeps coming back and I’ll take him.”

Fearless indomitability is central to the success of the human warrior as well, who must not lose heart as the heat of battle intensifies, and his morale flags. To encourage their respective armies to fight harder in the midst of combat, Ajax and Hector “stirred up the thumos and strength” of each of their men.

In the early 1900s there there were published a lot of books on how to develop one's manliness, courage, and gameness. "Poise" was one approach to it. One example is Poise and power by Larson, Christian, 1907. Another is Pushing to the front; or Success under difficulties, by Marden, Orison Swett, 1894.

 

[Gladiator]

Great topic. Empowered warmth is a powerful direction for one's compass. And gameness does indeed seem to be an undercommunicated ideal in modern society. Perhaps because 'manliness' is not in vogue. The Art of Manliness does bring up 'gameness' as a classical ideal of manliness:



In the early 1900s there there were published a lot of books on how to develop one's manliness, courage, and gameness. "Poise" was one approach to it. One example is Poise and power by Larson, Christian, 1907. Another is Pushing to the front; or Success under difficulties, by Marden, Orison Swett, 1894.

Thanks for sharing. Do you have a personal favorite that you recommend among those books/links?

 

[TestY]

Thanks for sharing. Do you have a personal favorite that you recommend among those books/links?

One of the approaches I like the most, for its practicality, is by the guy Karea mentioned on "personal magnetism": Theron Q. Dumont, which is one of the pen-names William Atkinson wrote under. I've made a post on his approach here.

 

[Will_V]

When I wrote my previous response, I was sitting in the park, thinking deeply about this topic and for a long time I wanted to try this and I also wanted to test this hypothesis of "Gameness". So, I took a deep breath, became completely aware of myself, cleared my mind of any negative emotions such as fear/hesitation and went up to a girl who seemed like she was waiting for someone and said:

Me: Hey (with a smile)
Her: hey (smiling back)
Me: Are you from around here?
Her: No, why?
Me: (I looked around like I was looking for an address).. I'm looking for a Girlfriend around here.. (with a straight face)
She was shocked and looked blank. There was silence for 5-10 secs which felt like an eternity. Then I said, that was a joke with a smirk.
She: Very funny! (Looking unamused)
Me: Are you a shy person?
She: I'm not but I'm not interested in having a conversation with you. (Ouch!)
I said "no worries" and walked away.

Lol, I've done that sort of thing a couple times, with similar results.

I approached her with the mindset that whatever is going to happen, I should remain unperturbed. With so much of mental preparation and going there with a sense of being outcome independent and and despite knowing that there's going to be likely a very negative response for being stupid, do you think I felt normal after that? NO. Although it was not too bad, I must admit there was an unsettling feeling which I was not able to brush it off.

Here is where I think you are confusing what gameness is. Gameness is not 'the ability to do random stuff without embarrassment'. You mentioned Sasha Daygame before - as fun and likeable a guy as he seems to be, the sort of antics he does sometimes on youtube are, in my opinion, not useful at all for developing real courage and gameness.

Because what he's doing, and what a lot of comedians and public performers do, is put on a persona. The persona is a mask that someone wears, what they want others to see and perceive about them, and (as psychoanalysis describes) is often used as a way to hide and protect the Self from being seen and judged. In some people, the persona goes so far as to be a means of masking the reality of their Self from their own perception, in order to avoid shame, guilt, or some other kind of negative self judgement.

When other people see someone wearing a mask approach, they think one of two things: if the mask is something very congruent with the environment (let's say you are at a circus and a clown with a mask comes up, or you are at a business meeting and someone who wears the persona of a 'cultured businessman' comes to meet you'), you get into the act and respond accordingly, laughing at the clown, or responding in a polite and cultured way to the businessman. Although there is a barrier (the mask), the mask is a means of triggering an act for which you know the rules.

But when you see someone approach with a mask and you don't know them or what they are after, the mask becomes threatening - it is a means by which they conceal themselves to give themselves an unfair advantage in the interaction that follows. You don't know the rules here, or what they might be after.

In this case, the default response is flight, to run and protect oneself from some kind of harm, which is why the woman suddenly went cold and actively closed down the interaction.

The only way to really make someone get in on an 'act' for which they are not prepared and don't know the rules (which is often the case for seduction, at least in daygame) is when that act is more honest, and speaks more to their true Self, than the reality they live every day.

..
You mentioned you felt unsettled afterward: that is not so much about the rejection, but about your loss of identity in the face of shame. Your mask got a rejection, but was the mask you? The rejection was directed at you, so it feels like you got judged. How much of the rejection was directed at the truth she perceived about you, rather than the mask you wore? Now that's unsettling! And the worst thing is, you didn't even get to express your true self, so you aren't even sure who you really are and what reaction that would have gotten.

The reality is that the only thing that can really make up for public shame is authentic self-expression. Imagine your worst secret, the thing that you did that you wouldn't want anyone to find out about ever. Now imagine if everyone in the entire world suddenly knew about it. What is a useful way to react?

The only thing that would be useful to you in this case, that would be protective and even enhancing to your identity, would be the truth of why you did it in the first place. Because that is you, the real you. And even if it's not always the best, it's a you that you still love and want to be. A you that is more real and more important than any of the masks you might wear, a you that you would still defend with your life and try to improve every day.

And upon accepting that you and the reality of what it had done, you could be at peace. And what other response, what other reaction or attempt to justify it, would give you the same peace in the face of an attack on your identity?

That is why masks are very risky, and the more we wear them the more they unsettle us and confuse us as to who we really are.

Gameness is not about wearing a mask. It is about walking out into rubble of reality, collecting the debris, and shaping it into the absolute best monument to your self expression that you can manage. Will it fall down tomorrow? Even if it stood up only one day, it was still a monument to your true self, and that's more meaningful than a whole lifetime of masks you don't even care about.

It gave me a lot of insight about myself and how my body and mind are as much conditioned as the society is. For me, that was a joke but not for her. This is what I was talking about. I mean don't take this one example as a reflection of my personality. I'm very strategic in seduction and don't do things like these but I just wanted to test my limits. So, all I'm saying is, although "Gameness" sounds like a sense of freedom, it's easier said than done to achieve it, imo.

What you did is stimulate embarrassment, you did not (in my opinion) become any more free.

What would've been your response if your boss/position of authority that you mentioned in the OP did not like you and indeed caused you trouble? Would you still be remaining in a "Gameness" state? What feelings do you feel and what emotions would've run in your body? This is what I meant by curve-balls, it need not have to be extreme emotions like anger, frustration or sadness.. just a feeling of displeasure and unpleasant emotions.

I would have been the same. Because no matter what happened, I would be really me. At the end of the day, what can anyone really do to me? Throw me in jail? Bankrupt me? Beat me up? As long as they cannot change who I am, or make me lose my sense of self, any circumstances, good or bad, are just another opportunity to take decisive, aggressive actions that strengthen my identity and self-satisfaction.

BTW, I don't know you enough. Maybe you are indeed in that state and I'd be happy to learn from you if you have tips for me to get to that state. This is the premise of my whole discussion. (I may keep an eye on you going forward.. Lol.. jk mate). I liked this post and this discussion. Thanks for posting it.

Life is always a process, I have things I'm good at, things I'm not so good at, things I've achieved and things I'm working on. But I'm glad you got something out of the discussion so far!

P.S: When I started the self-improvement journey, I knew I want something else which is not just girls and I couldn't put a finger on what that is. It's more than true-confidence. This post and x-factor from Karea hits close to home. So, when I saw them I felt very excited that finally someone gets it but the "how" seems to be something I can't grapple easily.

It's the most difficult and most important journey there is, the one of self-actualization. That's why I came to the forum to begin with, because of Chase's articles which added another small piece of the map that I have been trying to put together for myself for a very long time. If I can add a small piece to someone else's map I would be glad.

I also am looking for something beyond just women, but I think women are one of the most important things a man needs along his journey. Like Sinbad resting between his voyages, women provide a point of rest, healing, and a rediscovery of vitality and beauty along a man's journey that nothing else can quite match.

 

[Will_V]

Gameness and classical manliness
Great topic. Empowered warmth is a powerful direction for one's compass. And gameness does indeed seem to be an undercommunicated ideal in modern society. Perhaps because 'manliness' is not in vogue. The Art of Manliness does bring up 'gameness' as a classical ideal of manliness:



In the early 1900s there there were published a lot of books on how to develop one's manliness, courage, and gameness. "Poise" was one approach to it. One example is Poise and power by Larson, Christian, 1907. Another is Pushing to the front; or Success under difficulties, by Marden, Orison Swett, 1894.

Thanks for the references! I always like to read stuff on this sort of topic from past centuries, given how inundated we are now with self help marketing.

 

[Gladiator]

The only way to really make someone get in on an 'act' for which they are not prepared and don't know the rules (which is often the case for seduction, at least in daygame) is when that act is more honest, and speaks more to their true Self, than the reality they live every day.

Hmm.. I see where you're coming from and makes sense..

Let's say hypothetically, my identity was indeed being clownish, would you say owning that is the essence of "Gameness"? Cos this seems to be contradicting with what "works" to get results but how do I live my reality while also getting what I want? Or would you say I change my identity to become what works?

Or in other words, Daygame is not normal for 99% of the population in the world (guess you agree with me?). Now if I'm being authentic in my self-expression and it's my true identity (Gameness?), while the girl can't relate to this.. how do I convey my identity while connecting to her reality? You get what I'm saying?

 

[Will_V]

Hmm.. I see where you're coming from and makes sense..

Let's say hypothetically, my identity was indeed being clownish, would you say owning that is the essence of "Gameness"? Cos this seems to be contradicting with what "works" to get results but how do I live my reality while also getting what I want? Or would you say I change my identity to become what works?

I don't think being clownish per se is what closed down that interaction you mentioned earlier, but the fact that you were being intentionally awkward and 'crude' - in the way you presented your own desire without regard for social convention or her own level of investment. That basically forces her to either make a rejection or assume the burden of framing the interaction another way, since you didn't come in with any other context.

Let's say for example you put on an accent and went 'I just arrived from Turkmenistan and I'm looking for a wife. Can you assist me?' you've at least given her something to play with, if she's interested in doing so.

When you look at youtube prank videos and whatnot, the ones that are fun to watch tend to be quite subtle, and the ones that are most awkward and blunt are cringe and quickly wear out the subject of the prank (if they even get into it at all).

I think for daygame, James Marshall is one of the best people to learn from, I remember one of his videos where he does a pickup with a slight bit of comedy and roleplay but it's not overdone and quickly becomes an actual seduction (go to 13:16):

It's not weird, awkward or crazy, but with just enough 'performance' that she can easily enjoy herself with it. I think that's what will work well for girls who are stimulated by a little bit of the unexpected.

Gameness is certainly not mutually exclusive with humor and roleplay, and if that's your personality it's probably just a question of fine tuning it to the level of unexpectedness that the girl is able to swallow from a random stranger.

 

[Gladiator]

I don't think being clownish per se is what closed down that interaction you mentioned earlier, but the fact that you were being intentionally awkward and 'crude' - in the way you presented your own desire without regard for social convention or her own level of investment. That basically forces her to either make a rejection or assume the burden of framing the interaction another way, since you didn't come in with any other context.

Let's say for example you put on an accent and went 'I just arrived from Turkmenistan and I'm looking for a wife. Can you assist me?' you've at least given her something to play with, if she's interested in doing so.

When you look at youtube prank videos and whatnot, the ones that are fun to watch tend to be quite subtle, and the ones that are most awkward and blunt are cringe and quickly wear out the subject of the prank (if they even get into it at all).

I think for daygame, James Marshall is one of the best people to learn from, I remember one of his videos where he does a pickup with a slight bit of comedy and roleplay but it's not overdone and quickly becomes an actual seduction (go to 13:16):

It's not weird, awkward or crazy, but with just enough 'performance' that she can easily enjoy herself with it. I think that's what will work well for girls who are stimulated by a little bit of the unexpected.

Gameness is certainly not mutually exclusive with humor and roleplay, and if that's your personality it's probably just a question of fine tuning it to the level of unexpectedness that the girl is able to swallow from a random stranger.

Yep, James Marshall is good. What you pointed in the video is normally my default style of approaching (assuming familiarity) but y'day I took it way too far to test my limits..

Anyway, I wanted to try to have this state of mind all day today by consciously being aware of my feelings leading to my behavior. There was a sense of unfamiliarity with it, probably cos I've not embraced that as part of my personality/identity.

It gave me a direction though.. similar to meditation where you bring back yourself to the present moment, if I condition myself to constantly bring back to a "Gameness" state, someday I may get there. Gameness is like an anchor that you bring back yourself to when you drift away getting caught up with peer pressure, societal pressure, financial constrains etc to name a few..

I had a nagging feeling of whether this is long term sustainable though? Mainly cos it gave me a feeling of irresponsibility. We're so conditioned to live our lives a certain way and consciously being aware of not doing that creates a cognitive dissonance. My colleagues were discussing about kids and responsibilities. Normally I try to get away from such discussions since I don't like to get involved in those discussions and I have nothing to contribute anyway.. but today I tried to stay in the conversation being a spectator of a life that is alien to me but it wasn't easy.. you run into all sort of unconscious thoughts since you start questioning your lifestyle etc.. guess you can relate.

Anyway, I've discussed this enough. I'll see how far I can get with this.. to make it a part of me and my identity.

 

[Will_V]

It gave me a direction though.. similar to meditation where you bring back yourself to the present moment, if I condition myself to constantly bring back to a "Gameness" state, someday I may get there. Gameness is like an anchor that you bring back yourself to when you drift away getting caught up with peer pressure, societal pressure, financial constrains etc to name a few..

I'm not sure that's the best way to look at it - gameness is not simply a way of dealing with negative emotions, it is a gut-level throwing into forward gear against the pressure of uncertainty and opposition. It is more than anything a state of recklessness and, depending on the type of opposition, aggression.

In boxing, there's an interesting thing where if two people are sparring and someone suddenly takes a hit, their split-second, instinctive reaction will go one of two ways: either covering up/retreating/regrouping, or attacking immediately and viciously. The first one seems like the more 'intelligent' option, since you just took a hit and your opponent is on the offensive, the likelihood of being hit again seems high. But the second often works in practice to defeat the psychological advantage of the opponent and make them dither and pause their attack, getting you back in the fight or even surprising them with the counterattack. In any case, the reaction is immediate and instinctive, an aggressive reflex to being faced with mounting opposition and lowering odds, and I believe that is where gameness is truly expressed.

The more I've thought about it, the best way to train gameness is probably facing fears and doing difficult and challenging things.

I recently went with family and friends to a sort of outdoor park with various activities, flying foxes, quad bikes etc. One of the activities was abseiling down a cliff. Nobody wanted to do it, and to be honest neither did I, since I have a substantial fear of heights. But I just had to do it anyway, a part of me just wanted to destroy the obstacle that had presented itself and suffered the idea of having it there permanently. So I did it, half expecting to shit myself, and funnily enough, as soon as I started I just felt high, not afraid. And afterward it was as if I had had sex, my mind was energized but tranquil, my mood was great, I could have gone out and seduced any girl in the world after that.

And everyone else knew that I had done it even though I was afraid, and they hadn't. And they felt the effect in me too. And that is what makes gameness attractive. Especially if you find a way to invite someone into that space at a level that they are just able to handle.