Girl seems into me yet reserved

[Lantern]

I've met this girl at dance events a few months ago, and would see here on those here and there. We'd joke around a bit but not much more. At a recent one, we ended up dancing the last dances together, and then were kind of isolated and spent a good chunk of time talking with great vibes. As we decided to get out of the place and join others who were hanging out in front of the bar, we both notice some lost money on the floor. We pick it up, and use half of it to buy ourselves a drink. We spend some more time hanging out with others and go our separate ways.

Next day, I add her on Facebook. She accepts, and I send her a short message, referencing something from the night. I didn't make it open ended, as I wanted to see would she engage me in conversation. She does. At one point she says "I still have money from last night lol". So we agree to meet for drinks to spend it.

We meet and have a great time. We had cocktails and spent like 5 hours together. The vibe is awesome, we're joking around and having fun. She engages me verbally fully, but I sense a kind of stand-offishness, somewhat incongruent to the way she treats me verbally. I touch her lightly, she doesn't mind at all, but does not reciprocate. Things like that. Anyway, I don't go for the kiss, as something about the way she holds herself stops me. I'm not sure if she's being careful as it's social circle etc.

Afterwards, over a few days, she keeps engaging me via messages, even when I let threads of conversation die down, she re-engages and is super eager. So after a few days of texting, we agree to meet again.

We meet again for drinks. Again, the verbal vibe is awesome, she's really fun and positive person, has a great sense of humor, I really enjoy my time with her. But again the same thing. I up the touching a bit. No protest. No reciprociation. At the end of the night, as we're saying our goodbyes, I slowly try to move into her physical space to go for the kiss, but she seems to back off as I do. I can't be sure it wasn't my imagination, but it would fit the pattern. Meanwhile, she spent 20 minutes of us saying goodbye , going "it's so late I should go". Like the typical, "kiss me already" move, verbally, yet the physical vibe I got from her didn't match this. That kind of put me off and again I didn't do anything. Also, at one point during this second date we were talking about exes, and she said how at the end of her last relationship, of 3 years, she found out the dude had an alternative girlfriend for the whole 3 years, and was basically living in a lie, which caused her some trust issues that she's working on.

So all in all, I'm not sure what's going on. Was I just a pussy and should have gone for the kiss anyway ( I have a feeling this is most likely) ? Is she taking it slow on purpose and giving out this odd vibe because we're the same social circle and/or a bit of trauma from the last relationship? Is she playing with me? I'll be seeing her soon at a dance event, and I'm tempted to just call her out on this vibe, like "you seemed reserved, yet really into me, wtf girl?"

 

[StrayDog]

You, my friend, are being slotted firmly into the potential boyfriend category. Also, it would appear that there is a dynamic setup where she is aware of your interest physically and not reciprocating. That would indicate you are in a bit of a chasing position. How did you end up in this position? Well, more likely than not, you put yourself there.

Your first mistake was on the night you two danced together. You had her isolated. The vibe was good. But it sounds (from the way you described things) that you weren't doing much to build sexual tension. Then, you have the opportunity to either move her away from the social circle and escalate, or at least end the interaction on a seductive high note (if leaving the venue isn't an option that night for whatever reason). Instead, you move things back towards the social circle. While she may totally be into you, this sends the signal that you yourself are maybe looking for something more social, more slow. Boyfriend material. You didn't even snag her digits. Instead you found her on facebook. If you were coming from another frame this can sometimes be pulled off but 9 out of 10 times it comes across as chasing (even if she is receptive she is now in a strong vetting position and you are in an asking position). but it worked out and you got a date anyway. So you are still in the game

You didn't include what your text messages were, in your post, but I would be curious what those exchanges were like. I bet they helped to keep you out of the lover category and solidify a more potential boyfriend/friend vibe before your date.

On the first date, you were together for 5 hours and you failed to escalate. Here standoffishness was either you were fucking up in some way and you needed to address something in your game, or she was horny and wanted you to make a move already. An hour in and things are going well you need to change venues. Go for a walk, a drive, YOUR PLACE, anything. Don't just spend 5 hours at a bar. What the heck bro, you can't be spending 5 hours with a woman and not be building strong momentum. If you are together for 5 hours, two of those should have been the two of you being physical in some way. If the momentum is not there you bounce early.

On the second date, you literally copy the same formula as the first. Go out for a drink together and then draw things out. If date one didn't land you need to change your strategy. Another strong indication you are in the potential boyfriend/only friends category is the way you two were talking about exes. No dude, don't do this. Talking about relationship things, in general, is not conducive to the seduction process. First comes sex, then more sex, then eventually if it seems like y'all want something more you move things in that direction. All that talking about that kind of stuff does is have her start to see you as a relationship candidate. Even if you are wanting a relationship, you have way better odds of getting there from a lover frame.

Your intuition to not kiss her was probably correct as she was not really giving an indication she wanted to go there, and on the contrary, she stepped away from you when you were trying to get closer for a kiss. The groundwork just wasn't there. I personally would have addressed the elephant in the room. Something like "We're having a good time but you are still pretty reserved right now. What's up with that?" I have personally found that just addressing these things can do wonders. She might come at you with a pretty strong frame to deal with, but at least the issue is on the table to work with.

If you do have an opportunity to meet up again, I personally would do it in a place where there is no option to physically escalate and keep things brief (like a 30-minute coffee) Use it as an opportunity to build some sexual tension and leave it on a high note. that's just how I would run it. A bit of a pattern interrupt. But ultimately I would just seek out other women who are more receptive, personally.

One final note, on physical touch. It seems like at least you had that element. But it is not just about touching for the sake of touching. It is about when and why you touch. It needs to have a purpose behind it, and be calibrated. Too much touch for the sake of it comes across like you are trying (not saying that was what you were doing, but it seemed worth noting)

 

[Will_V]

I've met this girl at dance events a few months ago, and would see here on those here and there. We'd joke around a bit but not much more. At a recent one, we ended up dancing the last dances together, and then were kind of isolated and spent a good chunk of time talking with great vibes. As we decided to get out of the place and join others who were hanging out in front of the bar, we both notice some lost money on the floor. We pick it up, and use half of it to buy ourselves a drink. We spend some more time hanging out with others and go our separate ways.

Next day, I add her on Facebook. She accepts, and I send her a short message, referencing something from the night. I didn't make it open ended, as I wanted to see would she engage me in conversation. She does. At one point she says "I still have money from last night lol". So we agree to meet for drinks to spend it.

We meet and have a great time. We had cocktails and spent like 5 hours together. The vibe is awesome, we're joking around and having fun. She engages me verbally fully, but I sense a kind of stand-offishness, somewhat incongruent to the way she treats me verbally. I touch her lightly, she doesn't mind at all, but does not reciprocate. Things like that. Anyway, I don't go for the kiss, as something about the way she holds herself stops me. I'm not sure if she's being careful as it's social circle etc.

Afterwards, over a few days, she keeps engaging me via messages, even when I let threads of conversation die down, she re-engages and is super eager. So after a few days of texting, we agree to meet again.

We meet again for drinks. Again, the verbal vibe is awesome, she's really fun and positive person, has a great sense of humor, I really enjoy my time with her. But again the same thing. I up the touching a bit. No protest. No reciprociation. At the end of the night, as we're saying our goodbyes, I slowly try to move into her physical space to go for the kiss, but she seems to back off as I do. I can't be sure it wasn't my imagination, but it would fit the pattern. Meanwhile, she spent 20 minutes of us saying goodbye , going "it's so late I should go". Like the typical, "kiss me already" move, verbally, yet the physical vibe I got from her didn't match this. That kind of put me off and again I didn't do anything. Also, at one point during this second date we were talking about exes, and she said how at the end of her last relationship, of 3 years, she found out the dude had an alternative girlfriend for the whole 3 years, and was basically living in a lie, which caused her some trust issues that she's working on.

So all in all, I'm not sure what's going on. Was I just a pussy and should have gone for the kiss anyway ( I have a feeling this is most likely) ? Is she taking it slow on purpose and giving out this odd vibe because we're the same social circle and/or a bit of trauma from the last relationship? Is she playing with me? I'll be seeing her soon at a dance event, and I'm tempted to just call her out on this vibe, like "you seemed reserved, yet really into me, wtf girl?"

Too much time spent talking and having good vibes rather than escalating. Over-providing good feelings. No pressure on her to give you what you want.

Also indecisiveness and giving her way too much of a feeling of control.

Pull back a little, be more difficult to get, and when you're with her be more assertive with your sexual frame.

 

[Rakehell]

There’s a lack of sexuality in the interaction. She may very well like you and may even be attracted to you. The interactions you all have are good and aren’t boring or awkward I'm sure.

But there’s probably a lack of sexuality being projected to her. You both leave with a feeling of really enjoying eachother as people, but not as sexual beings.

It’s kind of like having a great conversation with your bestfriend, you’ll have really great feelings when talking to them but never actually stop to think of them in a sexual way.

Then imagine your bestfriend trying to kiss you afterward, weird right?

It’s not that she wouldn’t be open to seeing you in a sexual light, but you never trigger that thought in her mind because it isn’t being projected to her first.

Don’t get me wrong you can still have great conversations, but there has to be sexuality beneath the surface, especially in, but not limited to, your nonverbal expression.

An easy way to correct this is no joke, actively thinking about what you’d do to her in your bedroom.

3 keys

 

[Lantern]

Thank you, gents. It was on the line of what I was thinking.

But some corrections:
The first 5-hour date wasn't in a single bar, we've changed 3 venues. I was thinking I was building momentum towards something physical, but it was like I couldn't break an invisible barrier. On the second one, we had a drink, then went for a walk. Normally, I have a pretty good "time to escalate" instinct, with other girls in a similar situation I think things would have gotten physical for sure. But my instinct kept being on "any minute now" mode for the whole time. Neither was my touch random. And, this second date especially, I pulled the sexy eye contact, sexual state and all that jazz.

I will admit that the convo could have been more sexual, but it wasn't totally platonic either.

Another reason might be a bit of internal incongruence on my part, at least at the start. When we had the first prolong interaction, I wasn't in seduction mode, I was just having fun, and it was only after I saw she was a pretty cool chick, along with being hot, that I started think about giving it a shot. So that's why also I went the Facebook route, it was kind of throwing bait to see if she'll bite or not, and she did. Hard. And yet...

I mean, if she wasn't shooting IOIs of various kinds at me all the time, I'd drop this, even before the second date, but she keeps pinging me. What's also a bit of a drag is that we share a social circle, which is makes me less willing to be more aggresive with physical stuff, as otherwise I'd just go for it.

 

[DarkKnight]

Was I just a pussy and should have gone for the kiss anyway

Yes. You should have tried to escalate, it was clear from your story.. and then your gut feeling told you the same.

We had cocktails and spent like 5 hours together

.... should have escalated.

 

[StrayDog]

Still think there is probably some poor precedence that is contributing to the whole dynamic. But any way

Often times with women like this (who are acting super reserved when it comes to more seductive behavior) I have found that it is best to run the seduction from a more distant position, only introducing touch in a few key moments. I use the distance as a way to build sexual tension. Sound like maybe you ran things this way so bear with me here. This is just what I have found to work with women like this.
-When we meet for the date as an initial greeting. Good to start the date by breaking the touch barrier
-Then introduce small compliance building escalation ladders. Like have her hand me a menu (reward her "How gracious of you"). Get a taste of her drink (Reward her "mmm, way to pick a good one")
-Once there is sufficient momentum with both compliance and a bit of sexual tension. I aim for a bigger, more significant act of compliance, and reward it with touch ("You're so far away sitting over there, pull up a seat where we can actually be in the same hemisphere"). Once she complies with this She gets a strong touch (maybe a good strong shoulder rub and some solid eye contact)
-I then scoot away from her a couple of inches to create a bit more distance and continue the conversation from there.
-After a strong moment like this (15-20 minutes) I pull away (get up to go to the bathroom or something)
-When I return, I sit across the table from her again. Now there is a lot of distance. This builds tension. I might even comment on the fact I am sitting all the way over there now ("Wow this is a whole new perspective, I can see why you were sitting over here. How's your view?") Run the seduction a bit from this position.
-Then, on a high note, move the interaction to another venue (which I have been seeding into the conversation).
-I continue this way throughout the entire seduction. Fractionating compliance and touch. touch when it does happen is strong and effective. But it also barely happens at all until I am ready to escalate towards sex.

The point of all this is to build tension. You meet her where she is at with her distance, and slowly draw her towards you. Rather than you reaching out towards her. Then when things are a bit closer you mirror her distance back at her. This pattern interrupts whatever distance she was having. She starts to want your touch and closeness but doesn't feel like she can just have it willy-nilly. After one venue change, I aim to move things to a more seduction conducive location.

This strategy also seems to work well because if she doesn't respond well to smaller compliances I can get a good gauge of where she is at. I can either end the date early on a high note (treating the whole thing as a more informational quick date. Which allows for a bit more tension and chemistry for a second date). Or I can call her on it. One time on a date like this, after the bar, we went to go cruise around in my car I could sense her apprehension. I called her out "We are having a really good time but you are acting kind of distant. I can't quite figure it out". She had just broken up with a boyfriend of 6 years the day before. I was able to navigate this now that it was on the table and we ended up in bed. Also, calling her on it when you have barely made any big moves on her demonstrates you are really paying attention to subtle cues. It is attractive. If you call her on it after you have made some big move it just looks like chasing.

to summarize, when women are distant but warm use a touch sparingly (but also impactful) strategy and focus on compliance ladders. The first sign she is definitely not bitting, either challenge the frame or bounce.

Another reason might be a bit of internal incongruence on my part, at least at the start. When we had the first prolong interaction, I wasn't in seduction mode, I was just having fun, and it was only after I saw she was a pretty cool chick, along with being hot, that I started think about giving it a shot. So that's why also I went the Facebook route, it was kind of throwing bait to see if she'll bite or not, and she did. Hard. And yet...

I mean, if she wasn't shooting IOIs of various kinds at me all the time, I'd drop this, even before the second date, but she keeps pinging me. What's also a bit of a drag is that we share a social circle, which is makes me less willing to be more aggresive with physical stuff, as otherwise I'd just go for it.

I wonder if maybe you are doing a bit of a cope here on both these points. Ultimately you just fumbled your windows here and that is what counts, not your reasoning behind it. "Just throwing it out there to see if she takes the bait" is very much a passive position. The same goes for "If she wasn't shooting me IOIs I'd drop this" It sets a poor precedent.

Anyway, sounds like she is still into you. Just that you are pretty strongly in the potential boyfriend category. So you are going to have to figure out a solid way to reframe the connection. Usually pretty tricky once the precedent has been set though

 

[DonGately]

I used to spend so so much time in your situation. You needed to escalate. You needed to sexualize the frame, it's that simple.

 

[Will_V]

Thank you, gents. It was on the line of what I was thinking.

But some corrections:
The first 5-hour date wasn't in a single bar, we've changed 3 venues. I was thinking I was building momentum towards something physical, but it was like I couldn't break an invisible barrier. On the second one, we had a drink, then went for a walk. Normally, I have a pretty good "time to escalate" instinct, with other girls in a similar situation I think things would have gotten physical for sure. But my instinct kept being on "any minute now" mode for the whole time. Neither was my touch random. And, this second date especially, I pulled the sexy eye contact, sexual state and all that jazz.

I will admit that the convo could have been more sexual, but it wasn't totally platonic either.

Another reason might be a bit of internal incongruence on my part, at least at the start. When we had the first prolong interaction, I wasn't in seduction mode, I was just having fun, and it was only after I saw she was a pretty cool chick, along with being hot, that I started think about giving it a shot. So that's why also I went the Facebook route, it was kind of throwing bait to see if she'll bite or not, and she did. Hard. And yet...

I mean, if she wasn't shooting IOIs of various kinds at me all the time, I'd drop this, even before the second date, but she keeps pinging me. What's also a bit of a drag is that we share a social circle, which is makes me less willing to be more aggresive with physical stuff, as otherwise I'd just go for it.

It's not always possible to escalate, and it's usually good to hold off temporarily if your gut feeling is telling you something isn't there or is in the way.

But if a woman isn't playing along with the seduction, you've got to change things up. If she's being enthusiastic but not sexual you've got to increase tension and pressure. Show restlessness, push back on things, tease her in a slightly aggressive way, reduce attainability. If she starts feeling too much tension then you can give some validation with a sexual edge, like closing distance or touching her with a compliment or some show of warm attention.

You have to maneuver the entire context into a sexual frame with pushing and pulling, get her off her sense of platonic balance. And that's got a lot more to do with you and your body language than changing venues or just trying to work in a kiss.

If she's really just so unaware of herself that she has no idea, and you can see the teasing isn't having an effect or is just confusing her, then a more assertive escalation might work.

 

[Lantern]

I wonder if maybe you are doing a bit of a cope here on both these points. Ultimately you just fumbled your windows here and that is what counts, not your reasoning behind it. "Just throwing it out there to see if she takes the bait" is very much a passive position. The same goes for "If she wasn't shooting me IOIs I'd drop this" It sets a poor precedent.

Probably a bit of cope, not totally, but yeah.

The rest of your post is spot on and in combination with Will_V's comments, I think it clicked for me.

On the one hand, yes, the frame needs to get sexual and it is that simple.

On the other, I think the dance is more subtle with this chick that what I'm used to (and I'm still quite rusty after getting back to the game after a long time).

 

[Lantern]

Well, I owe you gents an update.

So between that last date I kept the texting to a minimum. Also, there were 2 events we both attended. One was a dance event, the other a home party held for the dance people by a couple from the scene at their place. In both cases I kept the small talk to a minimum but made sure to dance with the girl, and dance well, but then I'd move on to other girls, dancing and flirting and being my charming self. In fact, the girl left the second event kind of early, and in coming to say goodby she found me deep diving with a 10 years younger girl, who as all doe eyed looking at me. Point being - I poured on the pre-selection to the best of my ability.

3 days later, no communication between, I hit her up, we exchange a few fun texts and I invite her out. Now, this week I was to leave for a 10 day vacation. She was also leaving for a 4 day break. So I wanted to meet before this to see if there was anything still there. She agrees to meet this Tuesday, saying that her flight is the next morning at 8 AM so she can't stay up to late. I figure that's probably a no-bang situation, but hey, let's see.

I've also realised from you guys' posts and some further reflection that I probably wasn't minding my internal state and the tension between us enough before. If I had to find an excuse for it, I'd say it's because the girl is so much fun to hang with that it relaxed me a bit to much. I went back and watched a few Brian Begin, of Fearless Man, videos, as I think he's quite good at this concept of playing with tension between a man and woman.

Well, we meet and she comes in the most hot version of herself I've seen. Sexy haristyle, tight fitting summer dress, a bit of heel, yet all very elegant... When I saw her I thought "Right, I'm getting at least a kiss or a sexual assault charge tonight". The vibe was better from the beginning this time, and I made sure to be attentive of the tension between us, letting it flow, coming back to it even when she defused things with humor etc.

So we hang out for a bit, and when we're parting ways I go for the kiss and man, we ended up having a 10-15 min make up session like a pair of horny teenagers. Lip biting, ass grabing... I was tempted to slam her against the wall at one point but we were in public lol.

Anyway, we parted ways as she had like 4 hours of sleep to get before her flight, but I have a feeling if the logistics were there we would have banged.

We'll see how it goes when I come back from my trip, but the important part is that it showed me where I was letting my game get sloppy, and in this "re-sharpen my skills" phase, that's the more important goal.

Thanks again for the tips, guys, it sent me in the right direction!

 

[StrayDog]

Sounds like you got her double thinking her strategy a bit. She realized she has to play ball a bit more if she wants to keep you around.