Girlfriend wouldnt go for 2nd round of sex, think its over

Dylweed

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So i was hanging out with my girlfriend, we've been fucking for 3 months and monogamous for 6 weeks. Its my first monogamaous relationship. Ive had 4 different friends with benefits relationships in the last year that lasted 2 months or more. They were always down to fuck. There was never a time with any of those girls that i started escalating towards sex and they stopped me.

Then 2 weeks ago i fucked my girlfriend after dinner and then we were in bed cuddling, then 45 minutes later i got horny again and started making out and trying to fuck and she was pulling her head away and saying she was tired. she was like "we just had sex, well actually it was 45 minutes ago" and she was laughing. Well then she started to give me a handjob and at first i was like man wtf, i wanted to fuck her doggystyle. But whatever, i let her finishe me off and then im satisfied and then i suggest she leave since she said she was tired and that it was getting late. But then she was being all hesitent, i could tell she was horny. And i said something like that to her and then started making out and fingering her. I made her cum with my fingers and she was satisfied and then left. I wasn't bothered at all but afterwards i thought more about and definitely got annoyed. She said she was tired but then gave me a handjob and then wanted me to finger her when we could have just had sex in the first place.

Then tonight we hungout again, hadn't seen each other in a week cuz we were busy. And we fucked like usual. Then we got food and chilled for a while. Then it was like 3 hours since we fucked and she was saying she should be leaving soon, she did have to get up farely early, like 9 hrs from that point. But i thought itd be fun to fuck again so i made some kind of joke like after we have sex. I felt it would set bad frames if i said something like that and then we didn't do it. I started making out with her and getting horny so i said lets go to my room. She said why? I said i have to show her something in my room. She said what? I said its in my room i can't show it to you here. It was obvious what i was talking about i just thought it was funny. She gets up after i help lift her up out of her chair and then walks in my room, then i pulled my pants down and said here it is. Again i thought it was funny. Then she sits on my chair and i say dont sit there. I lift her up but she acts all heavy and she lays on the ground. I figured she's just being difficult to tease. I get on top of her but i feel im squishing her so i pull her up and throw her on the bed. Get on top of her and start making out but again shes turning her head away and saying shes not in the mood. Im not really believing this. In my mind i fugured shes playing some game to see who holds the upper hand. Its fucking awkward trying to have sex with someone who doesn't wanna have sex with you so i stop and accept its not gonna happen. Then shes looking at me and she looks like shes horny so go back at it again but she pulls away again.

I was really challenging her. And i wasn't that upset, it was kind of like playfully teasing. I said "We had sex 4 times the first time we fucked, now ur saying youre not horny. Either youre lying or you got sick of me or i lost my swag. This was said in kind of a joking way but she got all serious and was like are you serious? and she started looking all sad like she was going to cry trying to make me feel guitly. i had a lot to say but i started to keep my mouth shut but then i just let it out. I said I've had sex with a lot of girls you know that, this never happened with any of them so i dont know if this is just a relationship thing or what or if youre testing me, this is confusing and i bet youre horny right now. I tried reaching my hand down her pants to see if she was wet. She stopped me. Then i had her leave since she said she was too tired. It definitely felt a little awkward as she was leaving. I was thinking about how dumb this was and i was annoyed, she could sense it im sure, i didnt know what to say.

Then a half hour after she left, while i was writing this thread, she texted me this huge message
"I just want to make sure you know that being your girlfriend does not mean I am there for your every sexual desire. If i am tired, stressed, not feeling well, and/or just not in the mood, while i do like having sex with you, I am in no way obligated to. I dont want to sound harsh but i have been in situations where people have not respected that I am not required to have sex with them. It's never come to rape, but it has come uncomfortabley close and well into the realm of sexual assault. I do not want that to happen again so I'm just making sure you understand that being your girlfriend does not mean sex every time you want it. We can be intimate and show we care for each other without sex, though sex will certainly be part of it. Kissing doesn't always have to lead to sex and there are always other options. Even just cuddling to show you care can be enough at some times. It's not all about sex. It shouldn't be all about sex. I can assure you sex will be part of our relationship but i"
for some reason it stopped there, i feel like there was more to the message but it didnt show up.

Im fucking pissed, here there's this girl trying to be controlling. First she said she wouldn't hang out with me if i was seeing other people. I thought she was cool enough to try a real relationship with so i did give it a try. In a way i think i resented her a little for trying to control me and not let me be with other girls but i agreed to continue it with her almost as a gift. She really liked me and i liked her too so it was cool. Now she's trying to the one with the authority and i hate it. I hate authority. I hate not having freedom. I hate bosses but i deal with them because i dont run my own business. And now i have to deal with her authority as well, i don't know if i can do this.

When i first read her message i wrote this, "Shit well i like my freedom so maybe this just wont work out." I saved it to drafts because i realized it was kinda crazy and i didnt want to regret it but after reading her message again i just got more pissed and went and hit send. She hasn't responded, im sure she's asleep but i don't think i could go back with her after that text even if i wanted to.

Could i please get some suggestions though for next time? What would u guys have done differently? I feel like thinking back to it now that i should have realized she was like this earlier in the relationship and not decided to go into it with her. She didnt kiss me until our third date, it was the 9th time i tried kissing her. Should have just known right there.

Or maybe do you guys think im blowing this way out of proportion?
 

Hector Papi Castillo

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I just want to make sure you know that being your girlfriend does not mean I am there for your every sexual desire. If i am tired, stressed, not feeling well, and/or just not in the mood, while i do like having sex with you, I am in no way obligated to. I dont want to sound harsh but i have been in situations where people have not respected that I am not required to have sex with them. It's never come to rape, but it has come uncomfortabley close and well into the realm of sexual assault. I do not want that to happen again so I'm just making sure you understand that being your girlfriend does not mean sex every time you want it. We can be intimate and show we care for each other without sex, though sex will certainly be part of it. Kissing doesn't always have to lead to sex and there are always other options. Even just cuddling to show you care can be enough at some times. It's not all about sex. It shouldn't be all about sex. I can assure you sex will be part of our relationship but
Ewww. This message is just really unattractive. Of course, she's the boss when it comes to her vagina, but goddamned is this a BIG power play. She wouldn't have attempted such a move if you were in charge, though.

I'd say it's pretty much over. You've set some really bad precedent with her - did she chase you for the relationship? 3 months is pretty quick for monogamy, unless you absolutely tore her pussy apart and she got addicted to you.

Honestly, I'd sit her down and tell her that you're not looking for anything serious and want to go back to being casual partners. If she's down for that, cool; if she's not, well, you're going to start fucking other girls, so she should go do her own thing, too.

Back to the grind, my boy.

- Anatman

p.s. don't say stuff like "I lost my swag" or any reference to her not wanting you anymore. I've done this in the past, and even if you're clever about it, you're talking shit on yourself. Self-deprecation is cool, but not in response to her actually deprecating you.
 

Sophisticated Gent

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I agree with Anatman except I wouldn't give her another chance. That is a very threatening message. It is a big power play. A woman who will try this strong of a move is going to try to rule your every move. One day you will be sitting in your recliner, watching TV in your white T shirt while drinking a beer and saying yes dear. She will be next to you bitching about everything in the world including you and your beer gut. In the vernacular of the world - Pussy Whipped. I see this as a power play scenario that will go back and forth until you finally give in. There are too many women in the world to be saddled with a dominate female.

BDSC
 

Hector Papi Castillo

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BigDaddySc said:
agree with Anatman except I wouldn't give her another chance. That is a very threatening message. It is a big power play. A woman who will try this strong of a move is going to try to rule your every move. One day you will be sitting in your recliner, watching TV in your white T shirt while drinking a beer and saying yes dear. She will be next to you bitching about everything in the world including you and your beer gut. In the vernacular of the world - Pussy Whipped. I see this as a power play scenario that will go back and forth until you finally give in. There are too many women in the world to be saddled with a dominate female.
If you don't trust yourself to maintain an abundance mentality, Dylweed, BDSC is right. I advocat doing really risky, stupid shit just for the experience (like dating a party girl, at least once and until you just can't handle it anymore), but it's not for everyone (which is why I tell most guys to avoid party girls).

If you CAN shift it to an open relationship and sleep with other women, it'll be really educational to see her do a 180 and start bending over couches and desks when you enter the room. It was very eye opening to see my hardcore party girl ex go absolutely nuts for me just 2 months after I was crying on the phone with her. Makes you question what's possible.

So, the safest route is to just end it. But if you wanna play with fire, suggest an open relationship (and start going VERY aloof on her; perhaps ignoring a few texts here and there and only spend one weekend night with her). Don't hurt her, obviously, but play around a bit.

- Anatman
 

ray_zorse

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I consider myself experienced with this, and I can certainly confirm you are completely correct, it was a shit test and you failed the test. The first time she asserted herself "softly" and that was the time to really nip it in the bud, by asserting your dominant frame and putting your cock in there. Once she figured she could refuse you sex and then satisfy you with a handjob, and you would in a sense encourage this by giving her orgasms, she then felt powerful and tried the next step, refusing sex altogether.

How to handle these situations in the future, well I can give a number of options. But the overriding thing is: If you're not planning on following through, don't act sexual (this was a mistake of yours with your sexual joke that you then had to follow through, although it was good that you realized this). Once you decide you're having sex, you are definitely having sex, she doesn't get to say when it happens. Now how to achieve this.

Firstly I introduce bondage games and physicality quite early in the piece. The first time we play bondage games I make sure she has a safe word, and I tie her up and give her the orgasm torture (amply documented on these boards; see my journal if you need). I also do things like tying her hands behind her back and making her blow me, etc. I do this when the relationship is fresh and new so she gets used to it and it's part of things.

As part of the bondage games, if she's disobedient I slap her in the face, or perhaps I put her over my knee and spank her, or whatever. I also physically move her around into various positions etc. Remember this isn't violent because she has a safe word and she understands it's a game. However, as time goes on I basically do these things all the time (she loves it), it doesn't have to be part of a game per se. Obviously, I do not hurt her, I'm just asserting my dominance. She forgets she has a safe word.

So, if she's not complying to sex, one option is I just pick her up, bring her over to the sofa and start taking her pants off and so on. She tries to physically stop me, I continue. It develops into a real game of can I get her pants off etc. Eventually after about half an hour of wrestling I have her naked and we proceed (essentially, she submits). My yardstick here is whether she seems distressed. If she doesn't seem distressed (just angry and forceful and asserting herself) then I keep persisting.

Another option that works very well for me is, if she refuses to do something I say "well, you know what happens to girls who ...". And so I then try again, but when she continues to resist I say "well, in that case I will have to ..." which might be, I'm going to have to spank her, I'm going to have to cum on her face, etc. So basically, I give her a consequence for non compliance that is slightly degrading compared with complying. And then I set about putting that consequence into practice.

The last and final option when you've persisted for about half an hour to an hour with a graduated series of consequences for her, and she's still not complying, is the takeaway. Just let her go. As an example some weeks ago, I wanted to give her oral sex and I spent half an hour or so getting her pants and panties off and eventually started to go down on her and she STILL didn't comply (as she usually would if I reached this point)... she had been saying she wanted a shower (similar to your situation where she was saying she was tired)... so eventually I stuck my tongue between her pussy lips, JUST TO MAKE THE POINT they're my pussy lips and I can tongue them if I want, and then said "go..." and she sulkily went off and had her shower... when she came downstairs I had got out my laptop and was doing some work. She tried to escalate on me and I said "I'm busy now". This went on for some hours with her trying to rub her pussy and tits against me and myself just gently pushing her off and kissing her on the cheek and repeating that I'm busy now. Eventually she was as horny as fuck, I relented after we went to bed. Where you fucked up in the example you gave, is you relented much too easily and ended up giving her orgasms, she didn't receive her punishment as a lack of attention. Edit: In your case after she refused sex on basis of time constraint you could have said "oh, okay, well you may as well leave now" and pointed her to the door. And then maybe not contacted her for 10 days or so, if she contacted you then reply a lot later saying you're a bit busy or something.

Ray
 

Dylweed

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^ Ray, all that shit seems so crazy, is this a typical thing for it to be this hard to get a girlfriend to have sex? Im used to fuck buddy's and they never did this shit? Is this how relationships just are or this girl being exceptionally crazy?
 

ProblemSolving

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Great post by Ray!

The more time you spend with a woman, the more likely there will be a time when you're horny and she isn't. This is why it rarely happens with FBs and girlfriends you only see once or twice a week - you're only seeing them when they are horny. In most cases I don't think it's a shit test or powerplay. She just isn't horny at that point in time. It doesn't mean she can't become horny with some persistance.

Just don't get emotional, find out what gets her wet and make it happen. Ray's post explains how to make it happen brilliantly.
 

Franco

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Ok, I'm going to have to chime in here because everyone seems VERY off the mark.

This girl is your girlfriend now. This is VERY different from a girl that's in a casual relationship. When you're with a girl that's in a casual relationship with you, you don't need to address her concerns/emotions as much at all because she knows she can't expect that of you. In this situation, you need to address what's bothering her.

Forcing yourself on her was very much the wrong play, and this was not a shit test. This was her having some major concerns about the way you were treating her, and instead of addressing them, you continued to try to push through it, even though it was very obvious she wanted you to talk to her about something. In this sense, having a girlfriend is a whole different ballgame from what you're used to. You actually have to manage emotions and get her to bring up problems when she's acting aloof or sad.

This is where things should have certainly caught your attention:

Then she sits on my chair and i say dont sit there. I lift her up but she acts all heavy and she lays on the ground. I figured she's just being difficult to tease. I get on top of her but i feel im squishing her so i pull her up and throw her on the bed. Get on top of her and start making out but again shes turning her head away and saying shes not in the mood.
She's upset about something, and instead of addressing it, you continued to assume that nothing needed to be addressed. There's a difference between a girl making a "power play" and a girl genuinely being concerned about how much you care about her. In this case, it was the latter, and the more you ignored the issue, the more sad/upset she got about it.

After the above part, the conversation should have gone more like this:

You: Ok, something is obviously bothering you right now. What's bothering you?
Her: I don't know...
You: Well we always have a fantastic time in bed together, and now you're being really mopey and sad for some reason. Something is obviously wrong.
Her: I just don't feel like having sex right now.
You: And why is that?
Her: I told you I had to leave, and it's like you didn't even care that I have something important to do tomorrow.
You: So you're upset with me because you think that I ignored the fact that you have something important to do tomorrow and that I don't care about that?
Her: Well... yeah.
You: Ok, well I just want you to know that that is definitely not the case. I just get turned on when I'm around you sometimes, and I assumed that you were getting turned on too. Maybe I misread that. I'll try to be more aware of when something is really important to you. But I expect you to speak up and let me know what the problem is so that I don't accidentally ignore it. Ok?
Her: Okay. Thank you for understanding.
As to whether or not you actually want to have a girlfriend and learn how to deal with this type of drama is entirely up to you. But casual relationships are very different from monogamous ones, and if you want to keep a great girl around, you need to know how to manage her emotions and take care of her in ways outside of physical pleasure. Sex is only one element of the relationship -- her concerns, emotions, and desires are all elements that maintain equal value in her mind.

I would suggest reading the following article as it is extremely informative and also one of the few articles that solidified myself as an avid reader of this website a few years ago:


- Franco
 

Hector Papi Castillo

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Franco said:
Forcing yourself on her was very much the wrong play, and this was not a shit test. This was her having some major concerns about the way you were treating her, and instead of addressing them, you continued to try to push through it, even though it was very obvious she wanted you to talk to her about something. In this sense, having a girlfriend is a whole different ballgame from what you're used to. You actually have to manage emotions and get her to bring up problems when she's acting aloof or sad.
I read this and went "huh?" Then I reread your post, Dylweed and saw this

Dylweed said:
I was really challenging her. And i wasn't that upset, it was kind of like playfully teasing. I said "We had sex 4 times the first time we fucked, now ur saying youre not horny. Either youre lying or you got sick of me or i lost my swag. This was said in kind of a joking way but she got all serious and was like are you serious? and she started looking all sad like she was going to cry trying to make me feel guitly. i had a lot to say but i started to keep my mouth shut but then i just let it out. I said I've had sex with a lot of girls you know that, this never happened with any of them so i dont know if this is just a relationship thing or what or if youre testing me, this is confusing and i bet youre horny right now. I tried reaching my hand down her pants to see if she was wet. She stopped me. Then i had her leave since she said she was too tired. It definitely felt a little awkward as she was leaving. I was thinking about how dumb this was and i was annoyed, she could sense it im sure, i didnt know what to say.
Bold text. Alright, missed that one. My bad. Franco is on the right track. Then, here

Dylweed said:
I figured she's just being difficult to tease. I get on top of her but i feel im squishing her so i pull her up and throw her on the bed. Get on top of her and start making out but again shes turning her head away and saying shes not in the mood. Im not really believing this. In my mind i fugured shes playing some game to see who holds the upper hand. Its fucking awkward trying to have sex with someone who doesn't wanna have sex with you so i stop and accept its not gonna happen. Then shes looking at me and she looks like shes horny so go back at it again but she pulls away again.
Alright, what is your definition of "she looks like she's horny"?

Franco's advice is great for dealing with drama and I misread the thread. My bad again. However, I think what me and everyone else saw is a girl who is starting drama WAY too early into the relationship. Right now, you two should be in your honeymoon period and there should be nothing but smiles and sex.

Which is why I wrote
Anatman said:
You've set some really bad precedent with her - did she chase you for the relationship? 3 months is pretty quick for monogamy, unless you absolutely tore her pussy apart and she got addicted to you.
Three months is pretty quick for a monogamous relationship, so my guess is that either

1. You pushed for monogamy, which is not optimal

2. You had sex with her after a lot of dates and got BF-zoned, which is not optimal (but it's okay, my second relationship went this way and I did quite well, especially long-distance)

3. You guys spent so much time together that you sort of "fell into" a relationship; also not optimal

The only time I ever had a girlfriend act like this was my first girlfriend. She blew me on our second date and then by our 4th time hanging out, I agreed to be her boyfriend (still can't remember who brought it up, though). I tried to go for sex a few times but would give up pretty fast, because HEY, I'd never even fingered a pussy a few months ago, I'm cool with getting blown everytime we hangout! Obviously she started to get really cold towards me as time went on and she would even pass me in the hall at school and not even say hi. She really, really had a huge crush on me and I should have smashed her, but hey, dumb young Hector who played too much WoW and watched way too much porn.

As I mentioned, she got mad that all I wanted was to fool around. One of the last times we hungout, she even texted me "hey, so don't be a pervert today!" and she dominated my frame. Needless to say, I was quite confused. "She's my girlfriend," I thought! The mistake was her not really being in love with me before we started the relationship, because I didn't tear up that pussy.

And this is the fundamental problem of your relationship, I think. Franco's advice is brilliant, if she really liked you. Or for when you start a new relationship. And my guess is that she's really not all that into you. Sure, she's invested enough to get mad when you treat her like a piece of meat, but she's a girl and is in a relationship.

How many relationships has she been in?

Good shit on Franco for catching our oversight, tho ;) Been single way too long it seems.

No worries, Dylweed. My first relationship was pretty dumb, too haha. But yeah, don't put your hands down her pants when she's mad. However, I'd say this one is still pretty screwed precedent wise. Still, try and hangout with her, see what you can do armed with this new advice and see if you can turn things around. Or not. Your choice.

- Hector
 

ray_zorse

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Interesting, I may have given the wrong advice here as has been pointed out by Franco, given the specific details that Franco and Anatman noticed, however I was much more focused on the first occasion where she refused sex yet ended up giving a handjob. To me this is a GREAT BIG NO-NO, imagine if this happened on the first date, it would definitely count as a failed escalation and set an unmanly frame, she wouldn't meet you a second time for the real sex in that case! And, in r/ship you do need to treat every "date" as a seduction, the main difference is you've developed a certain physical familiarity, routine, and precedent. My advice was centred on making that physical familiarity, routine, and precedent work in your favour (I wouldn't have advocated such behaviour on a first date, but when she's used to you and KNOWS you will persist to sex, it's basically her choice to hang out with you). I also gave an example of calibration, what to do if she truly won't submit, despite your incredible persistence. I hope this wasn't interpreted as "forcing oneself on her". I suppose I should also have pointed out that all women are different, so what works for me in my current relationship won't necessarily work for your girl, but there's a good chance it would if an appropriately dominant frame is set as I described. Hmm. Anyway my gf tests me a lot and it is really quite challenging, but I definitely see a strong uptick in attraction after each test.

I agree though that her sulky behaviour, flopping on the chair and being inert etc, indicated problems and yes, persisting in such a case may be uncalibrated, I didn't pick that up. But, I think when it comes to drama she will only do it if she thinks you're weak enough to cave to it. So I still believe if you had done the takeaway like I described, or persisted to sex the FIRST time, the situation wouldn't have cropped up, she would've been either (1) feeling that drama would risk losing you, since you ignored her for a while last time, or (2) happy and satisfied with her dominant male, since you persisted to sex. And this brings me to another point that nobody has mentioned: You caved to relationship on HER TERMS -- she threatened to stop seeing you and you rewarded this with relationship. NO NO! That won't make her chase, it puts you in the chasing position and emboldens her to create drama and shit test you, since you've admitted you're in scarcity (or basically your other fuckbuddies didn't measure up to her).

As to damage control I think Franco has good advice, or if you didn't pick up the issue until receiving her text I think a good option would be (1) ignore for 10 days, despite what other guys said about not being too gamey and that she has the right to control her vagina etc, I DISAGREE, this is a bullshit text and bullshit drama and a matter that SHOULD NEVER be brought up over text, in fact it almost looks as if she's positioning herself to make a rape accusation... I have received walls of text from an emotionally unstable ex mistress and NO GOOD EVER CAME of responding to it and trying to address issues or put out fires (2) write an honest reply back saying "I'm sorry you feel that way and if I did something to cause that, then I did not intend to. I hope it is a miscommunication and something we can solve. But for my part I find your text quite concerning, because honestly, I am not a dog on a leash, I have thoughts and feelings, physical desires and will be expressing those desires physically. If that isn't acceptable to you then maybe this won't work out" [a more polite, reasoned version of the text actually sent].

Hope it helps! Just writing on basis of personal experience! :)

Ray
 

Dylweed

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Thanks so much everybody, especially Franco. I realize now that i fucked up and that she wasn't really lying and trying a power play and that persisting was stupid.

However im still annoyed because like i said i cut out sex with other girls for her and now she's cutting down sex with me. Thats a little insane and she should be aware of that. Maybe ill have to mention that to her. For now i told her how i thought she was lying and that now i realize that wasn't the case. She asked why i thought she was taking my freedom and i said

"because i thought you were lying and playing a game and taking away my freedom to have sex, because i like to have sex, and i want u to wanna have sex too, and ur the only person im having sex with, which i like, but if ur not down with havin sex it feels like i am trapped and you have the power to withhold one of the most natural things away from me, does that make sense?"

she said yes but asked why i thought she was lying, i said because its never happened to me before and because she wouldn't let me feel if she was wet

she said i should trust her, i said i know and I said we'll have to do a better job at staying on the same page. She agreed. So im going to keep seeing her but if this continues to happen ill have to end it because i have a high sex drive and she shouldnt be cutting down sex with me when i cut out sex with other girls for her.

ray_zorse said:
You caved to relationship on HER TERMS -- she threatened to stop seeing you and you rewarded this with relationship. NO NO! That won't make her chase, it puts you in the chasing position and emboldens her to create drama and shit test you, since you've admitted you're in scarcity (or basically your other fuckbuddies didn't measure up to her).
How is it supposed to be done instead? Really i have no idea
 

Franco

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Dylweed,

How is it supposed to be done instead? Really i have no idea
If she had to threaten to stop seeing you unless you gave her a relationship, it means you just took things a bit too far with her during the casual stages of the relationship without giving her what she wanted. Ideally, you want to know exactly what role a girl is going to play in your life very early on while minding the fact that no girl will play a permanent "non-committed" role in your life. If you don't give them commitment, they will eventually look for a man who will.

So if you decide that a given girl is worthy of your commitment, you should know this at least within the first month of dating her. While keeping that in mind, you continue to see her in a casual manner while slowly introducing more boyfriend-like things along the way so that she feels like she's slowly winning you over to something committed. Generally she will be the one to start suggesting the boyfriend-like things after awhile if you continually only invite her over for sex. Eventually, she will just bring up the concept of a committed relationship on her own (in a non-threatening way), and you can choose to agree to try it out with her and see how it goes. This lets you enter the relationship in a way that lets you maintain your dominance without having to push her to the limit and make her threaten to leave you. You let her be the one to feel like she's having to move the relationship forward which allows you to maintain your dominance as the guy that she's chasing for commitment from the get-go.

- Franco
 

Dylweed

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Franco said:
Dylweed,

How is it supposed to be done instead? Really i have no idea
If she had to threaten to stop seeing you unless you gave her a relationship, it means you just took things a bit too far with her during the casual stages of the relationship without giving her what she wanted. Ideally, you want to know exactly what role a girl is going to play in your life very early on while minding the fact that no girl will play a permanent "non-committed" role in your life. If you don't give them commitment, they will eventually look for a man who will.

So if you decide that a given girl is worthy of your commitment, you should know this at least within the first month of dating her. While keeping that in mind, you continue to see her in a casual manner while slowly introducing more boyfriend-like things along the way so that she feels like she's slowly winning you over to something committed. Generally she will be the one to start suggesting the boyfriend-like things after awhile if you continually only invite her over for sex. Eventually, she will just bring up the concept of a committed relationship on her own (in a non-threatening way), and you can choose to agree to try it out with her and see how it goes. This lets you enter the relationship in a way that lets you maintain your dominance without having to push her to the limit and make her threaten to leave you. You let her be the one to feel like she's having to move the relationship forward which allows you to maintain your dominance as the guy that she's chasing for commitment from the get-go.

- Franco
okay sweet thanks! But what if the girl isnt okay with casual from the start? Just drop her then? This girl in particular asked me right after we had sex the first time if i was sleeping with anybody else, i just said "yeah" like it was no big deal and said that was why i told her im not looking for anything serious right now. She asked how many people. I told her one. That was the end of that convo, then the next time we hung out she was already asking about that other girl asking if id break things off with her. I liked this girl from the beginning but it was so soon to be comitted, i still barely knew her, so i just said no. And she was okay with that but everytime we hung out it was like she talked about that at some point until not long later she was at the point she'd walk away if i didn't commit.

Ur not suggesting i lie to her when she asks if im sleeping with someone else are you?

Also you mentioned that relationships are different than fuck buddies because you have to manage emotions and all that. But why do you think this girl has turned down sex twice already? Is this a common thing for monogamous relationships? Do you think she just has a low sex drive? We fucked 4 times the first time we slept together, so that seems unlikely.
 

Franco

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Dylweed,

But what if the girl isnt okay with casual from the start? Just drop her then? This girl in particular asked me right after we had sex the first time if i was sleeping with anybody else, i just said "yeah" like it was no big deal and said that was why i told her im not looking for anything serious right now.
Yeah, this is generally annoying, and it is a bit of a red flag for me if a girl does this immediately. She seems nosey, and that generally means plenty of drama-filled action potential on her part if you stay with her.

However, I wouldn't have answered the question the way you did, at least not with a girl that I was potentially moving in the direction of "girlfriend." This is why you want to know as soon as possible what role this girl will fulfill in your life. I actually tend to know by the end of our first date (before sex) whether or not a girl is fitting for the role, but that only comes with experience around a lot of women. I know exactly what I like.

Ur not suggesting i lie to her when she asks if im sleeping with someone else are you?
With a girl that has girlfriend potential, I would have answered the question more vaguely or avoided it in some way. Directly telling her "yeah" is a very "I want to be a Lover but not a Provider" answer, and it's very polarizing. So naturally, she's going to be more concerned with how much you actually care about her given that you pretty much stated she was just "another girl" in your sex rotation. It's setting yourself up to deal with more drama.

Generally, I feel like this is an issue that she doesn't need information about if she's not my girlfriend. It would be like me going to the Government offices and randomly asking them for all of their passwords. If I'm not a Government worker, then they are going to question why I even need them. In reality, I don't. It's information that doesn't need to be provided, so they're not going to provide it.

When she's your girlfriend, you've essentially promised commitment, so at that point, she needs confirmation that that is actually true. You've accepted the role of monogamy that she was offering, so you want to be clear about the fact that you are monogamous.

I generally don't get many girls asking me this question because of the way I frame things -- I'm never extremely polarizing, and women can feel my warmth and seem comfortable not having to ask me about it. If you seem like too much of a "player" to the girl, she's going to be more likely to ask these types of questions to try to figure out if she's being played.

But why do you think this girl has turned down sex twice already? Is this a common thing for monogamous relationships? Do you think she just has a low sex drive?
You're seeing it the wrong way. She wasn't "turning down sex." She was punishing (or not rewarding) you for ignoring her feelings. Most girls have an extremely high sex drive, but if their feelings aren't aligned with their drives, then they are going to make sure that their feelings are addressed first. Her emotions play a role in how turned on she is, and if her emotions are telling her that something is not right, then she's going to put a seal on her sex drive until that is corrected.

- Franco
 

Dylweed

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Franco said:
Dylweed,

But what if the girl isnt okay with casual from the start? Just drop her then? This girl in particular asked me right after we had sex the first time if i was sleeping with anybody else, i just said "yeah" like it was no big deal and said that was why i told her im not looking for anything serious right now.
Yeah, this is generally annoying, and it is a bit of a red flag for me if a girl does this immediately. She seems nosey, and that generally means plenty of drama-filled action potential on her part if you stay with her.

However, I wouldn't have answered the question the way you did, at least not with a girl that I was potentially moving in the direction of "girlfriend." This is why you want to know as soon as possible what role this girl will fulfill in your life. I actually tend to know by the end of our first date (before sex) whether or not a girl is fitting for the role, but that only comes with experience around a lot of women. I know exactly what I like.

Ur not suggesting i lie to her when she asks if im sleeping with someone else are you?
With a girl that has girlfriend potential, I would have answered the question more vaguely or avoided it in some way. Directly telling her "yeah" is a very "I want to be a Lover but not a Provider" answer, and it's very polarizing. So naturally, she's going to be more concerned with how much you actually care about her given that you pretty much stated she was just "another girl" in your sex rotation. It's setting yourself up to deal with more drama.

Generally, I feel like this is an issue that she doesn't need information about if she's not my girlfriend. It would be like me going to the Government offices and randomly asking them for all of their passwords. If I'm not a Government worker, then they are going to question why I even need them. In reality, I don't. It's information that doesn't need to be provided, so they're not going to provide it.

When she's your girlfriend, you've essentially promised commitment, so at that point, she needs confirmation that that is actually true. You've accepted the role of monogamy that she was offering, so you want to be clear about the fact that you are monogamous.

I generally don't get many girls asking me this question because of the way I frame things -- I'm never extremely polarizing, and women can feel my warmth and seem comfortable not having to ask me about it. If you seem like too much of a "player" to the girl, she's going to be more likely to ask these types of questions to try to figure out if she's being played.

But why do you think this girl has turned down sex twice already? Is this a common thing for monogamous relationships? Do you think she just has a low sex drive?
You're seeing it the wrong way. She wasn't "turning down sex." She was punishing (or not rewarding) you for ignoring her feelings. Most girls have an extremely high sex drive, but if their feelings aren't aligned with their drives, then they are going to make sure that their feelings are addressed first. Her emotions play a role in how turned on she is, and if her emotions are telling her that something is not right, then she's going to put a seal on her sex drive until that is corrected.

- Franco
Thank you so much man, this all helps so much. That all makes sense, and that last part, the first time she did this, said she was tired, i just went along with it and i didn't push and then she decided to give me a handjob, so did i handle that perfect? Or was i supposed to start trying to figure out why she was tired, hoping that then she would get horny? lol this is so confusing
 

Dylweed

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radeng said:
Dyl,

I think something outside of the bedroom is giving this girl flags about you.

Not sure what it is. I don't think you should be getting turned down this early. Perhaps you're being too "boyfriendy" outside the bedroom and setting a frame that makes her less turned on. I'm not sure. Or perhaps you've opened up too much too early and there is no mystery for her.

I know in my relationships past, things only went down hill sexually when I lost my abundance mentality and she could sense my scarcity. That's all I'm trying to say.

Search for why she may be devaluing you outside of the bedroom. If you are coming off too committed this early on it could be giving her too much perceived power. Ray is correct, that the behavior needs to not be rewarded.

I feel that even with the scenario above there still isn't enough info to give great advice here.

Yes, sometimes girls don't feel like having sex, I think that should be respected but their are different opinions on that...however...you're scenario seems to me like the girl has other things on her mind that are preventing her from being mentally turned on even when she is physically down.

Just my 2 cents. I don't think you've lost too much here, besides she's still having a lot of sex with you. She's a person.

Radeng
Thanks man, what would you suggest i do in this situation? Ask her if there's anything she would want me to do differently in our relationship? Just do nothing and hope shes down for sex next time?
 

Franco

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Dylweed,

...that last part, the first time she did this, said she was tired, i just went along with it and i didn't push and then she decided to give me a handjob, so did i handle that perfect?
Sometimes a girl is genuinely tired, but a lot of times it's that she's upset or concerned about something too. Generally I err on the side of "there's nothing wrong" until she makes it obvious that something is wrong, whether that's by being passive-aggressive, getting angry, getting sad, etc. So I think assuming everything was fine here was the right move.

If she gave you a blow-job, it sounds like maybe she was actually tired. But you have to read her and her body language. If she seems distraught by something, then it's likely that she's worried about something and you need to address it.

- Franco
 

Dylweed

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Thanks alot man, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective.

Ive been warm with texting her now however part of me still thinks that all you are wrong and that this girl really is crazy and that i didn't do anything wrong and that i was right for being pissed and now i made myself look like a bitch because i read these responses and then started to feel guilty and i agreed to keep this relationship going. I just can't see this happening in other relationships. I got a lot to think about, i might just dump her.
 

ray_zorse

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I certainly get how frustrating it is to receive a lot of conflicting advice, pull this way a bit, pull that way a bit, change your mind, feel alternately angry, upset, guilty... but I think at the end of the day YOU are the man, you need to decide what advice, reasoning or explanations resonate with you, make decisions and stick with them (at least for long enough to find out what happens if you do). And hey, half the time you'll be wrong. Relationship management is really fucking difficult! I have constantly struggled with it. But, if you just take advice, consider it, and then GO WITH YOUR GUT, you should be golden. I would say the 100% most important thing is your abundance mentality. This gives you ability to try things that are out of your comfort zone (such as dominance or takeaways -- my "nice guy" self of 1yr ago would have been shocked and I'm still really bad at takeaways specifically)... WITHOUT changing your mind or losing your frame when things get messy as now. Anyway I suppose in summary, make your decisions, stick to them, accept that you'll have to live with the consequences (and no-one else will), and above all remain calm and non-reactive to your girl / her drama.

Edit: I think you did a really good job of recovering from a tricky situation, you know, just speaking to her honestly about your feelings and not being all PUAey. I think it's still important to be a bit honest and vulnerable sometimes (although I erred too far this way in my own r/ship lately and felt like a bit of a chode and predictably enough she started to test me more and I had to recover), the role of PU I think is to really reprogram our thought patterns to something more masculine so that we can actually BE honest and vulnerable without too much risk of losing her attraction. But you can basically never go wrong with honesty since the worst thing that can happen is you screen her out as not being attracted to the REAL YOU.

Ray
 

Dylweed

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yeah the contradicting advice was crazy. Well I thought i'd update this just in case anybody was curious or possibly wanted to learn from it.

We were texting a little the 2nd day after this happened and i was a little less warm than usual because i was still not sure if i wanted to break up or not. Then she texted me later in the day asking if i am happy having her as my girlfriend and this is how it went. I didn't respond for like 6 hrs and then i said

me: "yeah, that definitely did bother me the other day and i never thought id be in a situation like that but i think we can try to recover from it." then a few minutes later i sent this
me: "actually i don't know if we can recover from this, i think its over, you cant ration sex from me when i stopped having sex with other girls to be with you, thats insane, and i dont know why you dont want to have sex with me but that just shows something isnt right"
her: "You think it's not possible for me to just not be in the mood?"
her: "I am so incredibly appauled that you think that i am witholding sex from you and rationing how much sex you have. It was one time that I wasn't in the mood and we had already had sex anyway. I am so sick that i have missed three days of school this week and you think it's not possible for me to not be in the mood for sex because of that?"

I started getting pissed again when i read this but i tried being non reactive and having nothing to prove so i just said, I guess i was being fake because i knew getting mad wouldn't be good.

me: "No that sounds possible"
her: "So why do you sound so set on thinking that i am "rationing" sex then?"
me: "Well we did have sex 4 times the first time"
her: "That should not be your basis for every day we have sex. That was one instance and maybe sometimes that will happen and maybe sometimes it wont.
me: "Yeah i cant do that every day either"
her: "So why are you expecting something like that every time? You seem to have such a skewed perception on sex"
me: "No I'm just horny lol"
her: "So are lots of guys but they seem to understand that you don't always have to have sex all the time and sometimes people aren't in the mood for whatever reason and it shouldn't be questioned because thats their choice"
me: "2 times a night isn't all the time Sarah" (This is where i started to be genuine again and this is where the conversation finally got good)
her: "One time a night isn't keeping it from you. And we need to do more than just have sex, sit around for a while, have sex again..."
me: "See i feel like u think that i dont really care about u and that i only want u for sex"
her: "That's what it's coming across as. I want to believe you do care but it's starting to feel that you just want sex" (i was busy here and didnt respond right away)
her: "I don't want this to end. I just want to know that you care about me for more than just sex"
me: "Well sweet! Im glad youre telling me this, because thats not the case at all. I wouldnt invite you places with me like six flags, restaurants, the movie theater, bowling etc. I like spending time with you Sarah, and its not like were having sex all the time, its fun being with you when were not having sex, it just seems dumb for us to not have sex even though we both want to just to prove that we like each other for more than sex. If i only wanted you for sex i would have never made you my girlfriend"

her: "Ok i guess that makes sense. I know we have gone out and done things and i know money is tight so i don't expect to go out a lot but when we're at your place, i don't just want to sit there and talk and then have sex. I'd rather do something like watch a movie or play a game or i don't know, not just sit around until we have sex again. Maybe that is too much to ask but I don't want to feel like I'm just there for sex, which i know I'm not."

me: "I understand your worry, youre not saying that you dont enjoy our conversations though are you? Youre just saying that when we just talk, have sex, talk again, and have sex again that it makes you feel like im just using you for sex? Is that what youre saying?"

her: "Yes thats what I'm saying. I do enjoy our conversations!"
me: "Haha okay cool me too! Well we can do some other activities then while at my place besides just talking and having sex for sure if you want. However maybe im just lame but those two things are like some of my favorite things to do lol movies can be watched all alone and games could be played with anybody but nobody talks like you lol i think its a great way to bond. If that got boring to you then thatd be bad and we'd really have to go do something lol but i just want you to know that even if we were to just talk, have sex and repeat without doing anything else that its not because i only want you for sex, even if thats what it seems, i promise thats not the case because like i said i just genuinly enjoy doing that, i like talking with you, and sex seems to bring out fun conversations as well"

her: "I do enjoy our conversations but sometimes we've got to mix it up. We can talk while we play games. I think also its not that when we do just talk, we're not really interacting in any way. Either its just after we've had sex so we're in your bed or its while we're eating so we're sitting at different parts of the table."

me: "Cool we'll have to play some games then. Talking while in bed or at the table is still interacting though right? Lol how is it not?
her: "I mean physically. Like in you're bed we're cuddling yes, yes, but those conversations remind me of sex because we're naked and then at the table we aren't touching at all."
me: "Yeah okay i like when were touching as well :) but you really get reminded of sex if we're cuddling naked in my bed even if we're not having sex?"
her: " It just feels like is part of sex, does that make sense?"
me: "Haha i guess, is it possible for you to view it as a seperate thing? Lol thats how i view it, its like were just interacting in a non sexual sexual way now but we're too lazy to put on clothes or move lol"
her:" Haha I guess so"

So there it is, it was like Franco said, it was because something was bothering her why she didnt wanna bang. She was afraid i only wanted her for sex so she probably wanted to stop having sex to see if i still wanted to be with her. And instead of just saying it like that she told me that she was just tired or not in the mood. And then she wonders why i think that she's lying. Hilarious. Girls and their anti logic brains lol I'm excited to see her again and tease her about that.
 
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