Help me change my mindset :)

[Marty]

Hello friends!

Reviewing some of the coaching I've been lucky enough to receive through this forum, I've realized that I need to execute a "mindset switch" if my learning path is to line up with the suggestions here.

The main problem is that I've accumulated some data points that seem to point toward a different conclusion from the theoretical material on the main site. Judging by how effective the advice here has been for me, though, I'm 95% certain that it's my own interpretation of that particular subset of my experiences that is at fault.

That's why I'm asking for your help to lead me through it.

I am a great believer in the value of practical experience and shortly after I discovered this site, I resolved to go out "into the field" and attempt to put into practice what I had learned. I ventured into the streets of my city and started cold-approaching women in May 2013, a month or two before I ever posted anything in this forum, equipped with the information I'd read in the Girls Chase articles.

When I started out on that journey, I had a couple of advantages:

• I have never been prone to being friendzoned... if that means doing buddy-buddy activities with women I'm attracted to, or getting involved in long conversations with them and third parties present simultaneously, or groups, I simply don't do it, naturally, and never have done
  
• I have a natural self-assurance and air of authority and a quirky, nonconformist, highly individualistic manner

...and several disadvantages:

• I am very slow to appreciate concepts intuitively and need to be led through the reasoning verbally, step-by-step
  
• I do not have a natural grasp of social nuances (or don't trust my intuition enough) and can miss obvious-seeming signals

...plus, since I started I have acquired certain skills I didn't have before:

• I have formed good habits with my body language and speaking manner by "faking it till I make it", to the extent that these now seem natural
  
• I can now tell reliably when a woman is attracted to me (regardless of the words she speaks or any obstacles to capitalizing on that attraction) and when she is not

Now the mindset I'm having trouble with at the moment is the concept that girls are willing to move fast toward sex if they are confidently led in that direction. And I'll tell you exactly why.

I've never had trouble with the idea that women are sexual creatures; I've never been a "white knight" or had a false image of virginal, angelic, pedestalized ladies. That's not the issue here. My problem is not that extreme.

But when I read the first few of Chase's articles, before venturing into the field, it opened my eyes as to what is effective, and what is not effective, in generating buy-in among women to the idea of romantic involvement with a man. That's what I'm talking about. What will get her hooked.

So, as with learning any new skill, I decided to take the teacher's word for it. Accept the premise of the articles, go out there and put out the impression that I am not pursuing a relationship, just expressing my sexual attraction in a socially astute manner.

I was a bit rocky on the first few interactions, obviously; we'll discard them from the sample population. But once I got a bit of momentum going and learned to open direct, build rapport, and ask promptly and confidently for a date—well, I got a few positive responses actually, but here were the grounds for declining that I heard, again and again and again, from the women who appeared attracted, but said no:

• "I'd love to, but my boyfriend wouldn't like it"; or...
  
• "I'd love to, but my husband wouldn't like it".

I've even had 12 girls (I just checked my records) tell me they were in a relationship, then give me their phone number anyway. (Needless to say, they never picked up the phone.)

Once I'd gotten over the shock of supposedly self-reliant, feminist, American women permitting their menfolk to express approval or disapproval of their intention to have coffee with a man, I started thinking. And here are the thoughts that went through my mind: "Excuse me? I'm trying to move toward fast sex, like Chase taught me, and here you are using your current relationship status as an obstacle? I didn't ask and I don't want to know. I'm not pursuing a relationship here, you know."

And then I started forming conclusions, as the human brain is wont to do, from the data that was coming in. The idea started forming in my mind that these women could only conceive of sexual activity within a relationship framework. That's why they were turning me down; they couldn't have me as a provider, because that position in their lives was already occupied, so they were dismissing me altogether. Consequently, I concluded that that was the only context in which they could consider romantic or sexual involvement. They simply didn't take lovers.

So I start posting on the forum here, and time and time again, I am told that I have the wrong mindset, I need to push fast toward sex. Be a lover, not a provider. Trouble is, a lot of my previous data points have directed me elsewhere.

Please tell me what I am missing here... like I said, I'm the type of guy who needs to be led through step-by-step, but when I finally get it, the knowledge is all the more robust for the effort that went into getting it established.

Thank you!

-Marty

 

[The Tool]

what age group do u generaly go after? you will typically see this from 30 and upwards

 

[Marty]

Tool, very interesting

what age group do u generaly go after? you will typically see this from 30 and upwards

Great question. I should had looked at this before.

I went through the list of girls who had opened for me on my approach; a handful told me their ages, and I guessed the rest based on appearance, calibrated against the few that I knew for sure.

Mean age is 25.2 with a standard deviation of 4.9 years. (N=127)

(For the subset of a dozen who gave me their numbers after admitting to being in a relationship, mean age is 24.5 with a standard deviation of 6.1 years (N=12). I think the sample size on that one is too small to be relevant.)

Anyway, I think it's fair to say I go after girls who cluster around 25, typically ± 5 years.

-Marty

 

[Eternity]

How are you asking for the date? What are you saying to her? Saying "date" will kill whatever game you are running unless she's throwing herself at you. Vibe is equally important. Are you trying to hide neediness? Are you scared of the outcome? Does she intimidate you? She will smell this on you. Stare off into the distance when she's being boring, be serious with her and then charming and charismatic, keep her guessing. The b.f response IMHO refers to improper fundamentals and not "drawing" her in with your mysterious presence and personality. Also a vibe of sexual yet aloof demeanor is catnip which in turn will make avoid talking about her b.f, husband and letting you seduce her. I say this because i do not hear these lines from women very much, my problem is the middle towards the end. But i can lend a hand with your b.f/husband dilemma. Check out Don Draper's style, perhaps it will suit you more because you are around his age and his style might compliment yours. Mad Men Season 1 is the best season to learn this.

 

[Thedoctor]

Marty,

I'm replying on my phone and it sometimes does screwy stuff but hopefully it still gets my point across.

I'll respond to you in terms of you asking about the girls with boyfriends category. There's a possibility that some of them simply aren't interested and that's the excuse they use. Even if they still give you their number.

Now assuming they're telling the truth, then there are two problems you face: some girls are actually monogamous in relationships. If they're not, then chances are they won't respond if you call or text. After all, they could very well be with their boyfriends. In situations such as those I'd recommend trying to move her to bed during the same meet. It's hard to set up a meet with a girl who plans on being unfaithful, in my experience. And she'll probably wanna move fast too if those are her intentions. Maybe she just had a fight with her bf for instance. And my phone is now glitching so ignore last few lines, but all in all, you'd have an easier time pursuing girls who are single

Ask in

All in all, you'd probably have an easier time pursuing

 

[Franco]

Marty,

I wanted to focus on this part of Chase's response to your last FR as it seems to be hitting the point that I was getting at:

In summary: you're doing good! You're making significant headway, Marty. The biggest thing I think you've got to get out of your way is some of the preconceptions you have about women - that they want to move slow, that they appreciate gentle handling more than they do roughness and passion and aggression, and also that you've got to be witty and on guard - sometimes you want to respond to her lowering her guard by lowering yours as well, and moving things forward together, rather than hanging back in the safer but far less intimate pastures of playful banter.

When I read your FRs, I get this feeling that you're this really big flirt. You get a girl giddy and excited, you exchange some witty banter, and then... you exchange some more witty banter. You flirt some more. You miss an escalation window. You flirt some more. The girl starts to lose hope that you're a man that will take action. You flirt some more. The interaction ends and you take a phone number and part ways. She reached her emotional peak during the interaction, and then it begins to decline, and then at that point, you grab a phone number as she's on her way down the emotional crest to the bottom.

I think one thing that will open your eyes is trying to be more sexual in your conversation. Instead of being so "charming," try being witty and sexual. Make remarks like this:

SweetRepose: (giggling) "I'm so sorry... but I'm going to continue holding your hand anyway!" Right?
You: Well, let's be honest with each other here... my hand wasn't the only thing you were thinking about, was it now? *Sly smile into laughter*

You need to move things quickly from "charming" into "sexual" territory as soon as possible. You should be making witty remarks about each other's bodies and what you might do to each other if you get the opportunity. Your over-investment in charm and flirtation is confusing girls, and it's especially a downer for girls who do actually have boyfriends or husbands because they were hoping you would be a man who would make something happen right then.

So I would review some of Richard's reports as well as some NJ's and take note of the conversations and the phrases that are used. Fundamentals are very important, but what you say should be aimed at getting her aroused, NOT enamored.

I hope this makes sense. =)

- Franco

 

[Whizzy]

My advice steams off of Franco's. I have not read a FR of yours yet (I'll do my best to read a couple later), but besides just sexual language try incorporating touch into the banter. Besides that trying getting her to move with you (if you have the time), and if you dont have the time (or she doesn't) cut yourself off on a high point and leave her wanting more. Hope this helps!

 

[Grand Pooba]

I think one thing that will open your eyes is trying to be more sexual in your conversation. Instead of being so "charming," try being witty and sexual.

A long time ago I read Robert Greene's book "The Art of Seduction" (one of my first forays into this kind of community) and "charmer" was one of the eight types of seducers he listed, but he also noted very clearly that charm is essentially providing an emotional peak but without a hint of sexuality. That is the strength of the charmer, but also a charmer's weakness because sex is NOT on the table with that kind of vibe. It's quite platonic when not coupled with a more sexual atmosphere.

In your case, Marty, I think you've been using charm very, very effectively in the early parts of interactions, but you should experiment with switching into "moving fast mode" as she continues to bite, so as not to disappoint her.

<edit>

Oh, just saw this, which is the same thing:

You need to move things quickly from "charming" into "sexual" territory as soon as possible. You should be making witty remarks about each other's bodies and what you might do to each other if you get the opportunity. Your over-investment in charm and flirtation is confusing girls, and it's especially a downer for girls who do actually have boyfriends or husbands because they were hoping you would be a man who would make something happen right then.

Girls in your FR's generally seem to be very into you, but where you could make headway is taking action (moving fast) to pull them into your bedroom when they express that they're good to go.

 

[Marty]

Thanks to all who commented I really do appreciate the effort that went into your input!

Eternity, thanks for the TV recommendation, I hadn't heard of this show (I don't watch much TV), I've now ordered Season 1 on eBay and look forward to it! Ozzo, Doctor, Whizzy... you're all on the mark.

Franco,

You're absolutely right... bang on, in fact. It takes a good teacher to help me see my own errors that are obvious to everyone else!

When I read your FRs, I get this feeling that you're this really big flirt.

I am laughing at myself right now! You're right on the money. I didn't realize I was doing it, but now I look back on it, that's exactly what it is. In social circle, girls start to get exasperated after a few weeks. In cold approach, I feel like I start off strong and am well received, yet things go from bad to worse very rapidly.

The strange thing is that in group situations, I'm not like that at all, I hang back and let others do the talking and then come in with a pithy remark, or if there's a girl I'm attracted to involved, draw her into a "bubble". But as soon as I'm one-on-one with a cute girl, it's like I start to banter to cover up my own insecurity about what's happening (or should be happening) underneath.

You get a girl giddy and excited, you exchange some witty banter, and then... you exchange some more witty banter. You flirt some more. You miss an escalation window. You flirt some more. The girl starts to lose hope that you're a man that will take action. You flirt some more. The interaction ends and you take a phone number and part ways. She reached her emotional peak during the interaction, and then it begins to decline, and then at that point, you grab a phone number as she's on her way down the emotional crest to the bottom.

Exactly right. If anything, my FRs possibly even understate that aspect... for the sake of brevity I cut out some of the flirting in the written report, so in real life it's probably even worse that what you see on the page.

The fact is, I've realized I'm afraid to let things get too steamy... because then, something might actually happen—oh, and if something does happen, what then??

So I can presumably reduce the problem to the previous one. I've seen that before with approach anxiety, and I conquered that by pushing through consciously a few times, to consolidate good habits that soon become unconscious. I guess I can do the same with this reluctance to get sexual.

SweetRepose: (giggling) "I'm so sorry... but I'm going to continue holding your hand anyway!" Right?
You: Well, let's be honest with each other here... my hand wasn't the only thing you were thinking about, was it now? *Sly smile into laughter*

That's brilliant! Okay, that gives me an example of something concrete to work with. "Concrete"?—nah... Maybe I should say something rock-solid

Your over-investment in charm and flirtation is confusing girls, and it's especially a downer for girls who do actually have boyfriends or husbands because they were hoping you would be a man who would make something happen right then.

It is confusing to them, I can see that now. BTW I am not consciously going for attached girls, some of the other (nonetheless helpful) commenters misinterpreted that, I was just illustrating what reasons I was hearing for being declined and how that screwed with my reasoning. I generally avoid girls with obvious precious stones gleaming on their fingers, apart from anything else for what they are communicating about themselves! But yes Franco, I can certainly see why that would be and it makes sense to me.

Fundamentals are very important, but what you say should be aimed at getting her aroused, NOT enamored.

A great way of remembering it and one which I shall now take out into the field!

Honestly, Franco, I was under the impression that I was not keeping girls around long enough for things to get sexual, and thought that was my sticking point—I was losing them too soon. But what you write suggests to me that... maybe I got my cause-and-effect back to front?

Enormously helpful—as ever. Thank you.

-Marty

 

[Franco]

Marty,

The fact is, I've realized I'm afraid to let things get too steamy... because then, something might actually happen—oh, and if something does happen, what then??

This is what I was originally getting at when I mentioned that you might be "afraid" to hit escalation windows. I got that feeling from your interactions that you were just a little nervous about taking it to that next step. Now, it's my fault that maybe you didn't even realize you should be doing this, but at least that is clear to you now!

I think reading some of Richard's LRs will really give you an idea of how your conversations should go. Now, since "charming" seems to be your style, I wouldn't necessarily change something you're good at. When you approach girls, I would take the same initial "charming" approach that you've been doing as it does seem to work for you... up to a certain point anyway. Use your charm when you open, when you move her, and even as you deep-dive. But this absolutely must be the point where you begin to shift into fifth gear.

As a matter of fact, it might help if I make this a streamlined process for you until you get a good feel for it, so here is going to be my suggestion: after you have finished deep-diving with a girl, I want you to immediately focus on taking one of her next comments and replying with a witty, sexual remark. Make this your goal for your next interactions. Try pushing that boundary multiple times and see where it gets you.

I think where you'll be most surprised is how much a girl's attraction can suddenly spike for you once you start to make things sexual. She'll suddenly start to touch you more, she'll make sexual jokes back, and she'll start to think to herself, "wow, what is it about this man that just makes me want to... rip his clothes off?!"

And that's the type of emotion you want to invoke in her.

- Franco