how to know if your fundamentals is the problem

[Skills]

I thought i do a quick post and actually i want people to participate and give their opinion on when to know is your fundamentals....


now my definition of fundamentals i think is different or may not from the definition of the community.... For me fundamentals are the external factors we can control such as (hygiene, facial hair, style/accessories, body language, fitness level, voice tonality)....Notice that Race, height are things that are out of your control...

Now i will use gunwitch 3 keys for illustration purposes (but my own view maybe bastardized but who cares, is not my thing i use it for illustration to talk to community guys):

Social: for me is the Fundamentals, pretty much your presentation and how their groups perceive externally...

emotional: are you a boring guy

sexual: are you verbally, physical and with subcommunitions/vibe showing that you can fuck and you are lover not a platonic friendzone faggot...


^ again this my bastardization, you can go into chase blog and look at gunwith original article.... .


So recently we had a dude, that was about to give up to work on fundamentals.....


I saw right away that it was not the fundamentals, because he was not getting negative kneejerk reactions from the opening, and he was just having a typical club night in 2025 which is more brutal than any other period in my opinion for factors that are out of our control tbh...

He was convinced it was the fundamentals in the post and pm i explain to him what i am saying here... Cause i did not want to go in circles fighting and shit! so i just pm dude...(others like @Chase and @Atlas IV and @Will_V , said similar)

He listened and laid a 9 (i thought for a second he may have been making up the lay out of embarrassment) i never told the dude this, i just did detective work indirectly and i yes, it was 100% true story, i saw the texting etc...


So this my own opinion on the way that you can know if is fundamentals, instead of other factors such ass:

- she in not available, she has a boyfriend.

- The bitch shield is super high cause is a club full of dick horrible ratios of 20 guys per girl (when this happens a girl will be extremely uncomfortable and annoyed, she is getting hit up and she does not know is cause of you like her or she is the only thing in the club available to 50 dicks)

- she is in a rush in day game and is running late

- family members are there

- guy she is on a date with and she likes is there

- a bachelorette or birthday girl (were they may pact no to go home with anyone and they will all cockblock each other)

etc... i mean i can go on and on, but she sometimes i don't care how much game you have a girl is not rejecting you for you (she does not know you), she is rejecting for external factors out of the open, though a guy with good social skills never really gets blown out even from the open (well barely ever)... And of course the whole of point of these is for us to bipass all that shit and to get higher odds based on field testing other peoples' success right...

I don't think newer guys or guys coming from seduction break periods should conclude is the fundamentals..... Unless they know for sure they are correctly opening (no neo direct), and she is not getting bored during post hook point...

however, if you are opening decently and getting weird reactions constantly or blow outs from opening.... lets say you try to open 10 girls and 10 girls don't even let you finish the opening.... i think you could explore if is actually the fundamentals...

For example i hated the "baggy style" but i notice that i was not getting in the club the reactions i am used to getting after years of experience from the opening.... so i work a bit more on my fundies and then the stuff when back to the reactions i was getting and i even improve my ratios.... Same happened to me when teevester and name we can not mention told me to do skinny jeans and chelsea with the milleneals 6 or 7 years ago...

now here is some weird stuff on the fights of fundamental borderline black pilers vs traditional seducers.... ( i will make the argument for both, so when in the future we have these stupid ass discussions i can send them here):

Lets go back to the 3 keys (this is not me kj i am TALKING EXPERIENCE)

- A person can have some amazing fundamentals, so by having those amazing fundamentals the girls can PROJECT, the 2 missing keys which are the "emotional" not being boring and the "Sexual" based on the fundamentals she is PROJECTING THE 2 KEYS...

- A person can have amazing game(emotional) that he can by pass the fundamentals, but if he does not do sexual, he will be friendzone or ghosted most of the time.... IF you notice there are couple of posters complaining that they could no switch to sexual, losing women... i think it was @James D that mention this in the last report (though james have good fundamentals, i am mentioning for illustration purposes)

- now here one that is strange, you can have bad fundies, and even bad emotional and sex game trumps a lot of it, please don't ask me why, but this is a point made in the book sex god by ross.... For example you can be a massage therapist fat ugly, bolding... now this 10 is on your massage table, and you are massaging her, she i relaxed, you keep massaging and micro turning her on... now she is sexually aroused, and you skip the 2 other keys... (i have also been able to do this with my dancing)

- another strange thing i can at times bypass somewhat the fundies and get her projecting a lot with texting (emotional and sexual)....



So here is the problem a lot of guys or even poster or even people responding to post, will not be able to 100% know what the fuck it is, SPECIALLY NEWER GUYS.... Coaching, teacher, books, field play a role, but then there is another problem how do you know if the diagnosis is correct?? how do you know if they are not misdiagnosing (seen these a million times), how do you know if is a marking job (rsd used to do this at times)...


^ a newer guy or a guy new to community (easily influenced), a guy with not a lot field experience or lays, and even ADVANCE sometimes don't know what the problem is (i talk in the interview with chase how post high lay count i got onitis and making mistakes then i mention how after high lay count and clubbed changed with millennials when tinder came out i went through slump)...

So in conclusion, and my honest opinion... You should always always always, try to improve your fundamentals not matter what ... You should always try to improve your other emotional key (social dynamics, game constantly that is what the forum is for), and you should try to improve your sex game (again with field experience, forum, books, field testing, supplements, toys etc...)...

What is not a solution is totally take breaks "work on fundamentals" that is cope... I don't even believe in breaks to "work on business" unless your business is getting you soo much $ to pay for sugar baby or escort (cause you need to get laid right?) or better yet maybe get a fb or gf while work on biz....

That monk mode shit is a nono (unless you are really coming out of a harsh break up and even then i am not 100% sure on that opinion myself even if i advocate it and not long term either couple of months)...

Again, if you have a definite practical no kj way to know when you can 100% know the issue is the fundamentals please post... By the way, here we go again, i have never seen in the community a teacher not advocating fundamentals other then rsd in the blueprint (and even tyler took it back and explain the reasoning and the context)

 

[JT Sunshine]

Really good breakdown there. I’d think of fundamentals in game in a similar way.

I think the fundamentals start with your body language/eye contact/tonality/presentation. If you have bad posture, a submissive walk, avoid eye contact, speak in a timid way and dress like a fool, you’re going to be handicapped from the get go. It can be hard to self-judge this without practicing in a mirror or having a friend give you feedback. But the way I tested my posture/walk by myself was to walk *against* the foot traffic in a busy mall. When I finally got it down, everyone would move out of my way. You can test your tonality based on the responses you get from women (this applies more to night game). I used to have girls ask me to repeat myself 2-3 times. I was speaking too softly. I don’t get that anymore. Now I know how loud to speak. I’m learning that outfit choice/presentation is way more important than I was thinking, and I’ve gotten some good tips from forum members that I am currently field testing. I think this is probably where 99% of guys stop when thinking of fundamentals.

I’d agree that beyond that are verbal/sexual fundamentals. I’ve got nothing to add there that @Skills didn't already cover.

One more that has been of utmost importance on the nights I’ve pulled (and the ones that I haven’t) has been managing logistics. This cannot be overlooked as a fundamental skill. When I’ve been able to find out who the girl is there with, what they’re doing after/the next day, managed the friend group, gotten the uber, and led things all the way beyond the club, I’ve had success. When I’ve failed to find out the girl works at 8am, lives an hour away or have ignored her friends til they drag her away from me, I haven’t handled the fundamentals of logistics, and I go home alone. The friends didn’t drag them away because I had bad posture and wasn’t making sexual eye contact… they dragged the girl away because I failed to acknowledge them and find out the logistics of the group.

Interesting you say having your sex fundamentals down can overcome bad presentation and verbals. I had a friend like this in my college years. Sloppy guy, IQ of a frog, but always escalated and hooked up with lots of hot girls. I didn’t get it back then.

Could also compare this to sports. A player who always tries to score will probably score more than a more “fundamentally skilled” player that tries to set up the best possible play first, and only shoot when a goal is highly likely. I have coached hockey for a while, and would absolutely never advise a player to take a year off playing real games to work on fundamental skating/stickhandling skills. Sure, they’d come back next season a better skater and stickhandler. And those things are very important. But the guys who may have worse fundamentals, but have been playing competitively (aka in the field) will have that much more in-game experience and crush the guy who hasn’t played competitively for a year. Do both if you really want to get better.

I was able to successfully open women shirtless on a beach while not ripped. Would I have done better if I was ripped? Maybe. Am I working on my fitness? Absolutely. Am I going to stop approaching on the beach until I have achieved my fitness goals? That’s crazy talk. When I’ve taken breaks I’ve come back rusty as hell. No amount of muscle could compensate for that. I think inconsistency in approaching *has* been the thing that’s held me back the most…

What I've found the most helpful is to actually go out, journal about my nights afterwards and try to identify sticking points. That way you can find specific deficiencies in your fundamentals and make a point of working on them next time you’re out. Rinse, repeat.

 

[Tryst]

We seem to have very different ideas of what fundamentals are.

I consider the fundamentals to be all the things that communicate value besides the meaning of your verbals, and besides other communicators of value like a Ferrari or a model on your arm. That is, all the things about you and the vibe you give off by yourself that are immediately perceptible, regardless of what you're saying or doing, comprising of
- Vocal tonality - emotiveness
- Default bodylanguage, posture
- Eye contact, facial expressions - emotiveness
- Rhythm of speech
- Style, including grooming, hair, fashion, etc.
- other things which I am certainly forgetting.

Honestly, if you think you have all these down and you're not getting laid, you're either
- Not approaching enough,
- or you don't actually have your fundamentals down.

If you have fundamentals and you talk to girls, supposing you don't have drastically bad game, you will get laid. Girls will be attracted to you, and some of these girls will just be dtf easily.

This is the first 10% of game which brings 80% of the results. If you are in a position where you are approaching, and only getting laid very little or not at all, I almost guarantee that your fundamentals are lacking, because if they weren't, you would be getting laid.

I see some PUAs who have been active for a long time, and approaching a lot, and they're not getting laid a lot. The reason why is always a lack of fundamentals. One good friend of mine smiles too much, with lots of upward inflection in his speech. Both together make him come off very niceguy and approval seeking. Otherwise, his game is pretty good. But his success remains low, and will always remain low, until he solves this fundamental issue. The only thing he needs to do is sort his fundamentals out.

Again, if you show me any guy who is approaching and not getting laid, I will show you a guy who does not have his fundamentals down.

In the cases you, Skills, mention, about bitch shields, family members, etc, yes of course, you need more than fundamentals to lay these girls. But a good number of girls will fuck you if you just have good fundamentals. An even better number will fuck you if you have good fundamentals, and can properly lead them and escalate on them.

If you are a guy who understands the basics of leading and escalation, are approaching and not getting laid, I tell you: focus on your fundamentals. The answer is not in better kino, better negs, better frame control, the answer is in your fundamentals.



This simple truth, by the way, is the a predicate truth for the success of my "retard game", which I think we might have discussed, Skills. All it is, is relying on attraction being totally handled by fundamentals (and a dash of cocky-funny), and brainlessly pushing through the process, escalating on autopilot. The only "game" is fundamentals (which generates the attraction), and escalation (to turn the attraction into a lay). There is nothing at all smooth, or at all difficult about this. It is all done completely without thinking, because no thinking is required to get these low hanging fruit dtf girls. They will fuck you just because you have fundamentals, if you just escalate on them.

There are enough low hanging fruit dtf girls in the world to get laid consistently, without any other game necessary. If you're not getting laid consistently, you don't have the fundamentals. Retard game is the proof of this.

 

[Skills]

We seem to have very different ideas of what fundamentals are.

and then you repeat the same shit i said, re read...

I consider the fundamentals to be all the things that communicate value besides the meaning of your verbals, and besides other communicators of value like a Ferrari or a model on your arm. That is, all the things about you and the vibe you give off by yourself that are immediately perceptible, regardless of what you're saying or doing, comprising of
- Vocal tonality - emotiveness
- Default bodylanguage, posture
- Eye contact, facial expressions - emotiveness
- Rhythm of speech
- Style, including grooming, hair, fashion, etc.
- other things which I am certainly forgetting.

I said that...

Honestly, if you think you have all these down and you're not getting laid, you're either
- Not approaching enough,
- or you don't actually have your fundamentals down.

this, i disagree... Read @JT Sunshine answer... about logistics for example..

If you have fundamentals and you talk to girls, supposing you don't have drastically bad game, you will get laid. Girls will be attracted to you, and some of these girls will just be dtf easily.

This is the first 10% of game which brings 80% of the results. If you are in a position where you are approaching, and only getting laid very little or not at all, I almost guarantee that your fundamentals are lacking, because if they weren't, you would be getting laid.

i disagree, but again is your opinion...

I see some PUAs who have been active for a long time, and approaching a lot, and they're not getting laid a lot. The reason why is always a lack of fundamentals. One good friend of mine smiles too much, with lots of upward inflection in his speech. Both together make him come off very niceguy and approval seeking. Otherwise, his game is pretty good. But his success remains low, and will always remain low, until he solves this fundamental issue. The only thing he needs to do is sort his fundamentals out.

I talk about this ^ in the fallacy of the seduction success...

Again, if you show me any guy who is approaching and not getting laid, I will show you a guy who does not have his fundamentals down.

brah! i totally disagree...

In the cases you, Skills, mention, about bitch shields, family members, etc, yes of course, you need more than fundamentals to lay these girls. But a good number of girls will fuck you if you just have good fundamentals. An even better number will fuck you if you have good fundamentals, and can properly lead them and escalate on them.

^ i was giving examples for illustration purposes i had lay girls, in those situations i mention of course, but i also mention boyfriend/husband there (thought even with husband there i fucked girls, cuckhold dude) but again i was making for example/illustration purposes, no literally...

If you are a guy who understands the basics of leading and escalation, are approaching and not getting laid, I tell you: focus on your fundamentals. The answer is not in better kino, better negs, better frame control, the answer is in your fundamentals.

Again i totally disagree...

This simple truth, by the way, is the a predicate truth for the success of my "retard game", which I think we might have discussed, Skills. All it is, is relying on attraction being totally handled by fundamentals (and a dash of cocky-funny), and brainlessly pushing through the process, escalating on autopilot. The only "game" is fundamentals (which generates the attraction), and escalation (to turn the attraction into a lay). There is nothing at all smooth, or at all difficult about this. It is all done completely without thinking, because no thinking is required to get these low hanging fruit dtf girls. They will fuck you just because you have fundamentals, if you just escalate on them.

Yeah in 2010 good luck doing this today...

There are enough low hanging fruit dtf girls in the world to get laid consistently, without any other game necessary. If you're not getting laid consistently, you don't have the fundamentals. Retard game is the proof of this.

I will disagree....

tryst we agree on a lot, but this is not 2010 i will 100% agree not in 2025, totally disagree....

 

[Will_V]

I thought i do a quick post and actually i want people to participate and give their opinion on when to know is your fundamentals....


now my definition of fundamentals i think is different or may not from the definition of the community.... For me fundamentals are the external factors we can control such as (hygiene, facial hair, style/accessories, body language, fitness level, voice tonality)....Notice that Race, height are things that are out of your control...

Now i will use gunwitch 3 keys for illustration purposes (but my own view maybe bastardized but who cares, is not my thing i use it for illustration to talk to community guys):

Social: for me is the Fundamentals, pretty much your presentation and how their groups perceive externally...

emotional: are you a boring guy

sexual: are you verbally, physical and with subcommunitions/vibe showing that you can fuck and you are lover not a platonic friendzone faggot...


^ again this my bastardization, you can go into chase blog and look at gunwith original article.... .


So recently we had a dude, that was about to give up to work on fundamentals.....


I saw right away that it was not the fundamentals, because he was not getting negative kneejerk reactions from the opening, and he was just having a typical club night in 2025 which is more brutal than any other period in my opinion for factors that are out of our control tbh...

He was convinced it was the fundamentals in the post and pm i explain to him what i am saying here... Cause i did not want to go in circles fighting and shit! so i just pm dude...(others like @Chase and @Atlas IV and @Will_V , said similar)

He listened and laid a 9 (i thought for a second he may have been making up the lay out of embarrassment) i never told the dude this, i just did detective work indirectly and i yes, it was 100% true story, i saw the texting etc...


So this my own opinion on the way that you can know if is fundamentals, instead of other factors such ass:

- she in not available, she has a boyfriend.

- The bitch shield is super high cause is a club full of dick horrible ratios of 20 guys per girl (when this happens a girl will be extremely uncomfortable and annoyed, she is getting hit up and she does not know is cause of you like her or she is the only thing in the club available to 50 dicks)

- she is in a rush in day game and is running late

- family members are there

- guy she is on a date with and she likes is there

- a bachelorette or birthday girl (were they may pact no to go home with anyone and they will all cockblock each other)

etc... i mean i can go on and on, but she sometimes i don't care how much game you have a girl is not rejecting you for you (she does not know you), she is rejecting for external factors out of the open, though a guy with good social skills never really gets blown out even from the open (well barely ever)... And of course the whole of point of these is for us to bipass all that shit and to get higher odds based on field testing other peoples' success right...

I don't think newer guys or guys coming from seduction break periods should conclude is the fundamentals..... Unless they know for sure they are correctly opening (no neo direct), and she is not getting bored during post hook point...

however, if you are opening decently and getting weird reactions constantly or blow outs from opening.... lets say you try to open 10 girls and 10 girls don't even let you finish the opening.... i think you could explore if is actually the fundamentals...

For example i hated the "baggy style" but i notice that i was not getting in the club the reactions i am used to getting after years of experience from the opening.... so i work a bit more on my fundies and then the stuff when back to the reactions i was getting and i even improve my ratios.... Same happened to me when teevester and name we can not mention told me to do skinny jeans and chelsea with the milleneals 6 or 7 years ago...

now here is some weird stuff on the fights of fundamental borderline black pilers vs traditional seducers.... ( i will make the argument for both, so when in the future we have these stupid ass discussions i can send them here):

Lets go back to the 3 keys (this is not me kj i am TALKING EXPERIENCE)

- A person can have some amazing fundamentals, so by having those amazing fundamentals the girls can PROJECT, the 2 missing keys which are the "emotional" not being boring and the "Sexual" based on the fundamentals she is PROJECTING THE 2 KEYS...

- A person can have amazing game(emotional) that he can by pass the fundamentals, but if he does not do sexual, he will be friendzone or ghosted most of the time.... IF you notice there are couple of posters complaining that they could no switch to sexual, losing women... i think it was @James D that mention this in the last report (though james have good fundamentals, i am mentioning for illustration purposes)

- now here one that is strange, you can have bad fundies, and even bad emotional and sex game trumps a lot of it, please don't ask me why, but this is a point made in the book sex god by ross.... For example you can be a massage therapist fat ugly, bolding... now this 10 is on your massage table, and you are massaging her, she i relaxed, you keep massaging and micro turning her on... now she is sexually aroused, and you skip the 2 other keys... (i have also been able to do this with my dancing)

- another strange thing i can at times bypass somewhat the fundies and get her projecting a lot with texting (emotional and sexual)....



So here is the problem a lot of guys or even poster or even people responding to post, will not be able to 100% know what the fuck it is, SPECIALLY NEWER GUYS.... Coaching, teacher, books, field play a role, but then there is another problem how do you know if the diagnosis is correct?? how do you know if they are not misdiagnosing (seen these a million times), how do you know if is a marking job (rsd used to do this at times)...


^ a newer guy or a guy new to community (easily influenced), a guy with not a lot field experience or lays, and even ADVANCE sometimes don't know what the problem is (i talk in the interview with chase how post high lay count i got onitis and making mistakes then i mention how after high lay count and clubbed changed with millennials when tinder came out i went through slump)...

So in conclusion, and my honest opinion... You should always always always, try to improve your fundamentals not matter what ... You should always try to improve your other emotional key (social dynamics, game constantly that is what the forum is for), and you should try to improve your sex game (again with field experience, forum, books, field testing, supplements, toys etc...)...

What is not a solution is totally take breaks "work on fundamentals" that is cope... I don't even believe in breaks to "work on business" unless your business is getting you soo much $ to pay for sugar baby or escort (cause you need to get laid right?) or better yet maybe get a fb or gf while work on biz....

That monk mode shit is a nono (unless you are really coming out of a harsh break up and even then i am not 100% sure on that opinion myself even if i advocate it and not long term either couple of months)...

Again, if you have a definite practical no kj way to know when you can 100% know the issue is the fundamentals please post... By the way, here we go again, i have never seen in the community a teacher not advocating fundamentals other then rsd in the blueprint (and even tyler took it back and explain the reasoning and the context)

If I understood correctly, the idea is that if you are getting immediate negative/uninterested reactions, then it's your fundamentals, if not, then it's your skills?

I can agree with that. I'd say the easiest way to know if my fundamentals are on point when I'm daygaming is to smile at or just make eye contact with a few girls and see how they react. If I'm in a great mood and generally well presented, she'll usually smile or at least look for a moment or two with an open, friendly expression.

When my fundamentals are bad (especially body language, but also to some extent if I'm just presented poorly) girls will start looking away stony faced. Body language and facial expression has by far the biggest impact - even if I'm dressed and styled really well if my vibe is slack, it won't help. If my vibe is great but I'm dressed like shit, it's give and take, some girls will still be interested, but others especially the more socially conscious/status oriented ones will try and make a point.

If my fundamentals are great but my game is bad (like if it's been a while), the initial contact is usually great but the conversation will die out or get awkward as she realizes I don't know wtf I'm doing, she might start dithering between walking off and staying around, or she'll come up with some reason to wrap things up - she has to go, she's got a boyfriend, her friends are waiting, etc. It's basically 'thanks for the compliment from a guy I enjoy getting complimented by, but you're not getting to round two'.

PS and yes, the whole 'take a break to do X' is complete bs. Every good thing in my life came from iterating in the arena. You get out there, you get feedback, you absorb the pain, you adjust and do better. Bootstrap your way to the top, feedback and correction, feedback and correction, ad infinitum. Taking a break to work on something in the basement is just a sign that someone is psychologically scared of the world telling him what he really needs to become.

I just did my first jiu jitsu competition today (came second out of three guys), even though I've only been training a couple times a week for a few months. Did I feel ready? Hell no! But I wanted to throw myself into the place that tells me in no uncertain terms along what path I need to evolve, even if the way I get that news isn't that fun. I can deal with that, just give me the news, something to work on, and another opportunity down the line, and I'm good. That's my philosophy on every endeavor, it's how I began with game. I hate 'working on myself', by nature I'm a lazy guy, but I like winning. So just give me an opportunity and I'll use it to get closer to what I want.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

I've been thinking about this too, and what I feel is that the vibe fundamentals are the most important. The mood you are in, how positive, proud, sexual you feel. This will correct a lot of the voice tone and body language by itself too.

I can agree with that. I'd say the easiest way to know if my fundamentals are on point when I'm daygaming is to smile at or just make eye contact with a few girls and see how they react. If I'm in a great mood and generally well presented, she'll usually smile or at least look for a moment or two with an open, friendly expression.

When my fundamentals are bad (especially body language, but also to some extent if I'm just presented poorly) girls will start looking away stony faced. Body language and facial expression has by far the biggest impact - even if I'm dressed and styled really well if my vibe is slack, it won't help. If my vibe is great but I'm dressed like shit, it's give and take, some girls will still be interested, but others especially the more socially conscious/status oriented ones will try and make a point.

This is more or less what I have also felt. It is very difficult to get negative reactions right away when your vibe is on point. I do also feel that some very well made up girls that are more status oriented will be reserved if you don't look the part, that said I've had very good interactions even when not looking the part much.

What I do feel about the non vibe fundamentals, for example body, fashion, hair/facial hair is that they can make the girl feel instantly more allowed to open up. It's surely better if you fit her and the place's narrative. And yeah if these get extremely bad maybe even with the best vibe you won't get any good reactions.

I surely wouldn't stop approaching either to fix them though. One reason is the obvious that no matter how you look or feel one day, you may just stumble upon a girl that is interested, and it's always better to be ready for the opportunity than saying for some reason that no right now I am not approaching/flirting/escalating.

The other reason is that you lose the experience needed to realise what fundamentals to change and what works. You are building the fundamentals anyway to be more effective for the opposite sex, so it makes sense to see how the girls respond to you as you make changes.

 

[Will_V]

I've been thinking about this too, and what I feel is that the vibe fundamentals are the most important. The mood you are in, how positive, proud, sexual you feel. This will correct a lot of the voice tone and body language by itself too.

That's a great point. When you feel like a winner, a lot of unconscious markers of body language improve outside of your awareness, and vice versa. The way you hold your head, the level of your eyes, to name a couple.

In my opinion a lot of fundamentals can be improved simply by being generally successful at life and meditating. The first gives you good impulses as to body language, and the second makes you aware of yourself so that you can better keep bad impulses out when temporary setbacks occur. It seems to me a lot of guys who aren't getting results are both not happy with and not aware of themselves.

This is more or less what I have also felt. It is very difficult to get negative reactions right away when your vibe is on point. I do also feel that some very well made up girls that are more status oriented will be reserved if you don't look the part, that said I've had very good interactions even when not looking the part much.

In my experience makeup isn't so much of a factor of whether a girl is status oriented. The most status oriented girls are the ones that come over from the third world and struggle to feel equal, or they are just average looking and see themselves as below everyone else, so markers of social class such as clothes matter a lot to them.

When I approach a beautiful girl who's dressed to the nines, outside an event for example, and I'm dressed down, I almost never get a bad reaction. These girls have spent all night watching dudes who are also dressed to the nines being too afraid to approach them.

What I do feel about the non vibe fundamentals, for example body, fashion, hair/facial hair is that they can make the girl feel instantly more allowed to open up. It's surely better if you fit her and the place's narrative. And yeah if these get extremely bad maybe even with the best vibe you won't get any good reactions.

I doubt you would ever get a bad instant reaction from a girl with a good personality if your vibe is on point. Would it be hard to get her on the date if your clothing is absolutely horrible? Sure. Impossible? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

The thing is that virtually no one with horrible clothing has a charming demeanor and the courage to approach, and if they do, it's a curiosity for her.

You are building the fundamentals anyway to be more effective for the opposite sex, so it makes sense to see how the girls respond to you as you make changes.

Exactly. You can't improve at anything without actually doing it.

 

[Tryst]

and then you repeat the same shit i said, re read...

I said that...
this, i disagree... Read @JT Sunshine answer... about logistics for example..

Okay we agree on the definition of what fundamentals are, but disagree on whether fundamentals alone are enough.

I was writing at 03:30 and my mind was fried from 1960s soviet papers on physics, so I'll revise my position now.

Fundamentals are mostly responsible for attraction. A lot of girls will be attracted to you just because you have good fundamentals, and you need just a tiny bit of game to properly show these fundamentals off.

Of the girls who are attracted to you, some of them will just be dtf. You only need a tiny bit of game to get these girls to bed.

Of these girls who are dtf, some will be logistically possible, and so you get laid.

When I say fundamentals are enough to get laid consistently, I mean fundamentals combined with a tiny bit of game, i.e., you need both fundamentals and game which isn't drastically bad.

You know what I mean right? Sometimes you meet a girl, and she just likes you, she's up for it, and you can do it as long as you just escalate on her. Then there are also the girls who might not normally be super dtf, but she's attracted to you and you just have good chemistry with her without really needing to consciously think about game.

I'm saying that these two sorts of girls are common enough that fundamentals and a minimum of game are enough to get laid consistently. Yes, with overall weak game, you will be missing out on a massive amount of girls whom you could have laid had you had better game, but there are still enough girls that will sleep with you without good game.

I might have overstated my initial "fundamentals-only" position because I was thinking about the student campus, where comfort and logistics are pretty much already handled by the fact that you live on the same campus, but still, there are enough girls just walking around in the clubs and bars who will fuck you just for fundamentals. They are just dtf easy girls who don't need to be gamed, they just want to fuck a guy they're attracted to.

Of course logistics are gonna cut another portion of these girls out, but do we really have to write on every post, "You must have logistics in place to get laid for this to work!"?

Honestly if you're going out regularly and you're not meeting girls who just want to fuck you without you having to game them, you need to take a serious look at your style and probably fundamentals. This is typical "good-looking guy" game, which anyone can emulate if they have proper fundies.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

In my experience makeup isn't so much of a factor of whether a girl is status oriented. The most status oriented girls are the ones that come over from the third world and struggle to feel equal, or they are just average looking and see themselves as below everyone else, so markers of social class such as clothes matter a lot to them.

When I approach a beautiful girl who's are dressed to the nines, outside an event for example, and I'm dressed down, I almost never get a bad reaction. These girls have spent all night watching dudes who are also dressed to the nines being too afraid to approach them.

Yeah I didn't use the term madeup correctly. I wanted to say generally taking a lot of care of their clothes and appearance, not specifically of the face makeup.

And the rest is also true, I feel my worst rejections have been with girls that were particularly fake in some way. Too much makeup, too provocative clothing, too much plastic surgery. I suspect they are not very secure with themselves either.

I doubt you would ever get a bad instant reaction from a girl with a good personality if your vibe is on point. Would it be hard to get her on the date if your clothing is absolutely horrible? Sure. Impossible? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

The thing is that virtually no one with horrible clothing has a charming demeanor and the courage to approach, and if they do, it's a curiosity for her.

Yeah the impossible is taking it a bit far, I was thinking of really terrible fundamentals, but if you have a place to sleep, take some baths and put on some functioning clothes you can't really go immensely bad.

It is also a matter of how the way you present yourself affects your mind,attitude and vibe. If you don't feel well with what you wear or how your hair looks you will show it, and it can be a self-fulling prophecy thinking that everyone dislikes you because of how you look.

I think it's really important when you are outside to totally forget about all the things on you that cannot be changed and enjoy yourself like you are the most god-blessed guy in the world.

I don't see anything good coming out of going around thinking your fundamentals are bad and how will you even get girls like that.

 

[Skills]

If I understood correctly, the idea is that if you are getting immediate negative/uninterested reactions, then it's your fundamentals, if not, then it's your skills?

Majority of the time specially night game.... However, of course i seen guys with super bad fun damentals and amazing fun vibe that are able to open but it goes nowhere (i know a 40 plus year old with a cowboy hat comes to mind), but this guy is also an outlier but he nevers get pass opening and a bit of hook, gen z girls very friendly so they would take his cowboy hat, and dance wearing cowboy hat and he would be a cheerleader for example but in night game, yeah the op in question remember was doing night game /inside club context....

I can agree with that. I'd say the easiest way to know if my fundamentals are on point when I'm daygaming is to smile at or just make eye contact with a few girls and see how they react. If I'm in a great mood and generally well presented, she'll usually smile or at least look for a moment or two with an open, friendly expression.

When my fundamentals are bad (especially body language, but also to some extent if I'm just presented poorly) girls will start looking away stony faced. Body language and facial expression has by far the biggest impact - even if I'm dressed and styled really well if my vibe is slack, it won't help. If my vibe is great but I'm dressed like shit, it's give and take, some girls will still be interested, but others especially the more socially conscious/status oriented ones will try and make a point.

If my fundamentals are great but my game is bad (like if it's been a while), the initial contact is usually great but the conversation will die out or get awkward as she realizes I don't know wtf I'm doing, she might start dithering between walking off and staying around, or she'll come up with some reason to wrap things up - she has to go, she's got a boyfriend, her friends are waiting, etc. It's basically 'thanks for the compliment from a guy I enjoy getting complimented by, but you're not getting to round two'.

PS and yes, the whole 'take a break to do X' is complete bs. Every good thing in my life came from iterating in the arena. You get out there, you get feedback, you absorb the pain, you adjust and do better. Bootstrap your way to the top, feedback and correction, feedback and correction, ad infinitum. Taking a break to work on something in the basement is just a sign that someone is psychologically scared of the world telling him what he really needs to become.

I just did my first jiu jitsu competition today (came second out of three guys), even though I've only been training a couple times a week for a few months. Did I feel ready? Hell no! But I wanted to throw myself into the place that tells me in no uncertain terms along what path I need to evolve, even if the way I get that news isn't that fun. I can deal with that, just give me the news, something to work on, and another opportunity down the line, and I'm good. That's my philosophy on every endeavor, it's how I began with game. I hate 'working on myself', by nature I'm a lazy guy, but I like winning. So just give me an opportunity and I'll use it to get closer to what I want.

^100%

 

[Skills]

That's a great point. When you feel like a winner, a lot of unconscious markers of body language improve outside of your awareness, and vice versa. The way you hold your head, the level of your eyes, to name a couple.

In my opinion a lot of fundamentals can be improved simply by being generally successful at life and meditating. The first gives you good impulses as to body language, and the second makes you aware of yourself so that you can better keep bad impulses out when temporary setbacks occur. It seems to me a lot of guys who aren't getting results are both not happy with and not aware of themselves.



In my experience makeup isn't so much of a factor of whether a girl is status oriented. The most status oriented girls are the ones that come over from the third world and struggle to feel equal, or they are just average looking and see themselves as below everyone else, so markers of social class such as clothes matter a lot to them.

When I approach a beautiful girl who's dressed to the nines, outside an event for example, and I'm dressed down, I almost never get a bad reaction. These girls have spent all night watching dudes who are also dressed to the nines being too afraid to approach them.



I doubt you would ever get a bad instant reaction from a girl with a good personality if your vibe is on point. Would it be hard to get her on the date if your clothing is absolutely horrible? Sure. Impossible? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

The thing is that virtually no one with horrible clothing has a charming demeanor and the courage to approach, and if they do, it's a curiosity for her.



Exactly. You can't improve at anything without actually doing it.

they only nitpick is that in nightgame with certain demos there are mix groups context, even if you posses does things you mention your odds are going to be really low... I gave my wing example he posesses everything you say, but his ratios went to shit, i know is the fundies (outdated/bad style)

 

[Spike]

If I understood correctly, the idea is that if you are getting immediate negative/uninterested reactions, then it's your fundamentals, if not, then it's your skills?

I do not agree with this for exactly the reason Skills just talked about

i seen guys with super bad fun damentals and amazing fun vibe that are able to open but it goes nowhere

Sometimes girls will hook with zero intention of fucking you. If you think it’s not your fundamentals, you’ll conclude “oh I just need to come on with an even MORE amazing vibe” or search for forum for stronger hooks. When really it doesn’t matter how strong the hook. It was never going to go anywhere.

 

[Skills]

Okay we agree on the definition of what fundamentals are, but disagree on whether fundamentals alone are enough.

yes

I was writing at 03:30 and my mind was fried from 1960s soviet papers on physics, so I'll revise my position now.

i can't even spell physics, good luck brother...

Fundamentals are mostly responsible for attraction. A lot of girls will be attracted to you just because you have good fundamentals, and you need just a tiny bit of game to properly show these fundamentals off.

of course

Of the girls who are attracted to you, some of them will just be dtf. You only need a tiny bit of game to get these girls to bed.

and here is the problem what i was telling you "this is not 2010" those dtf girls are online now, they are not at the club in the same QUANTITY, that there used to be..... You will have them in special events, and halloween.... as i said many times, if you relly in dtf you will fucked.... Yes you can travel, college party, halloween etc... but i am talkng in general.... My book and posts back in mpua and for a while in nexasf was all about what you are talking about.... is not anymore a reliable way to get vagina, yes you can do this but is not the same....most lays will look like fluxcapacitator last report for night game, now a days.... The days of going to club looking and targeting dtf are gone (thought every once in a blue moon we get tease of flashback, but due to the way clubs are now a days totally an unreliable way for consistant pussy in clubs)... online yah, not clubs...

Of these girls who are dtf, some will be logistically possible, and so you get laid.

When I say fundamentals are enough to get laid consistently, I mean fundamentals combined with a tiny bit of game, i.e., you need both fundamentals and game which isn't drastically bad.

You know what I mean right? Sometimes you meet a girl, and she just likes you, she's up for it, and you can do it as long as you just escalate on her. Then there are also the girls who might not normally be super dtf, but she's attracted to you and you just have good chemistry with her without really needing to consciously think about game.

I'm saying that these two sorts of girls are common enough that fundamentals and a minimum of game are enough to get laid consistently. Yes, with overall weak game, you will be missing out on a massive amount of girls whom you could have laid had you had better game, but there are still enough girls that will sleep with you without good game.

Correct, but unfortunately in this environment is not really like that... to be able to be consistant, those girls have more to online, also you need to be able to deal with groups of people

I might have overstated my initial "fundamentals-only" position because I was thinking about the student campus, where comfort and logistics are pretty much already handled by the fact that you live on the same campus, but still, there are enough girls just walking around in the clubs and bars who will fuck you just for fundamentals. They are just dtf easy girls who don't need to be gamed, they just want to fuck a guy they're attracted to.

well i totally disagree with the "enough girls" as i said this was true back in 2010s i don't see that dynamic you are talking about today and i ma not even projecting, is what is see on the field.....Is your location usa? I seen dozens of guys pming me from the forum (most guys in these forum are actually fundamentally decent) yes, they usually a bit of outdated styles but not enough to be able to do what you described and yet they are not doing it...

Of course logistics are gonna cut another portion of these girls out, but do we really have to write on every post, "You must have logistics in place to get laid for this to work!"?

that was in reference of the context were i was saying certain situations were the girls may not be able to be pull and the NEWER GUY wrongly concluding is the fundamentals context.... this op is not for the PROS is more aimed to easily influence newer guys to the community or to pick up that think is "I AM NOT FUCKING UP MY GAME IS MY FUNDIES" totally erroneous conclusions, seen this a lot lately in the forum..... The same when i join the forum were every other dude was saying "is not my game she just autorejection" and i was like brah! as you notice and is factual the op issue was not the fundamentals, he stuck his dick in her vagina.... when he was thinking it was his fundies... context...

Honestly if you're going out regularly and you're not meeting girls who just want to fuck you without you having to game them, you need to take a serious look at your style and probably fundamentals. This is typical "good-looking guy" game, which anyone can emulate if they have proper fundies.

And yet i go out to clubs regularly and i dont see ^ the above in the clubs, i don't see guys pulllin meeting those requirements at all consistently...

These is what i am seeing in 2025 or maybe the clubs gods playing tricks on me:

- a bunch female big groups (typically bachelorette parties)
- a bunch of mix groups that know each other
- a bunch of groups that know each other to put money together to get vip tables
- dtf women i see them every once in blue moon, usually special holidays, events such as halloween
- a bunch of guys going home alone (good looking guys with decent game), most of them even stop coming out or went online/traveling..
- inconsistent ratios (good weeks, even months follow by shit weeks, months)... I call these women coming out...

Again i am all for fundamental maxing, nobody writes more post and videos about fundamentals than i do... but the idea that fundies, plus looking for dtf with minimal game

^ great i have a bunch of post talking about 2010 is back i call natural and physical game... Totally agree what is not back is those women that you are talking about CONSISTANTLY out on the clubs... Which makes you have to actually game a lot of women that are actually not dtf i called them yellow, were good fundamental and minimal game won't be enough and you are dealing with groups...




-

 

[Skills]

Sometimes girls will hook with zero intention of fucking you. If you think it’s not your fundamentals, you’ll conclude “oh I just need to come on with an even MORE amazing vibe” or search for forum for stronger hooks. When really it doesn’t matter how strong the hook. It was never going to go anywhere.

^ and show me where you seen this??? What i seen is guys making clear mistakes based on what they describe and people mentioning better ways....

 

[Will_V]

they only nitpick is that in nightgame with certain demos there are mix groups context, even if you posses does things you mention your odds are going to be really low... I gave my wing example he posesses everything you say, but his ratios went to shit, i know is the fundies (outdated/bad style)

I'll hand it over to you for night/club game, I basically only daygame right now and have for ages. Maybe if I get into night game at any point I'll have more of an opinion, but what you say makes sense.

Sometimes girls will hook with zero intention of fucking you. If you think it’s not your fundamentals, you’ll conclude “oh I just need to come on with an even MORE amazing vibe” or search for forum for stronger hooks. When really it doesn’t matter how strong the hook. It was never going to go anywhere.

No, you are assuming it would never have gone anywhere, but maybe your context is wrong. Maybe she's down to bang a hobo in the backseat of his car that night, but you went and got her instagram, failed to lead, or her experience of you just wasn't that exciting.

One of the problems with having dogmatic ideas about womens preferences is that you don't take into account that they can want different things from different guys.

Generally speaking of course it's great to have a honed in style that looks great, be fit, etc, but to assume that this is some kind of on/off switch is just not correct.

 

[Skills]

I'll hand it over to you for night/club game, I basically only daygame right now and have for ages. Maybe if I get into night game at any point I'll have more of an opinion, but what you say makes sense.

^ yeah will i know, is not me posturing is me just for context... Which is why i said "nitpick"

No, you are assuming it would never have gone anywhere, but maybe your context is wrong. Maybe she's down to bang a hobo in the backseat of his car that night, but you went and got her instagram, failed to lead, or her experience of you just wasn't that exciting.

One of the problems with having dogmatic ideas about womens preferences is that you don't take into account that they can want different things from different guys.

Generally speaking of course it's great to have a honed in style that looks great, be fit, etc, but to assume that this is some kind of on/off switch is just not correct.

Yes this Is what i was trying to convey, perfect job will... that is the op post is not to assume conclusions based on erroneous diagnosis, SPECIALLY NEWER GUYS JOINING THE COMMUNITY... Bingo! you sumarized my post in the above...

 

[Spike]

^ and show me where you seen this???

You literally just posted an example that I quoted lol

 

[Spike]

No, you are assuming it would never have gone anywhere, but maybe your context is wrong. Maybe she's down to bang a hobo in the backseat of his car that night, but you went and got her instagram, failed to lead, or her experience of you just wasn't that exciting

No. That’s a case where she was dtf and you failed to recognize that and didn’t strike when the iron was hot. Different context from what I’m talking about

 

[Skills]

No. That’s a case where she was dtf and you failed to recognize that and didn’t strike when the iron was hot. Different context from what I’m talking about

yes i miss that, good point, i think he is talking in the context of missdiagnosin, and the dude concludes is the fundies..... context

 

[James Cruse]

Now i will use gunwitch 3 keys for illustration purposes (but my own view maybe bastardized but who cares, is not my thing i use it for illustration to talk to community guys):

Social: for me is the Fundamentals, pretty much your presentation and how their groups perceive externally...

This is part of the reason I moved away from using Seduction MMA for daygame:

The Social Key wasn’t really ever needed.
I completely missed it due to forgetfulness, time or I simply escalated past the point where I didn’t need it - so many times and still pulled.

The only “Social Key” I think is useful is Passive:
Body Language, Tone, clothing and just not being a potential threat (which is fundamentals to me)

The biggest reasons for having great fundamentals is simply having passive value while not being a threat.

But I don’t think it’s necessary to ACTIVELY tell stories or spend any time setting social frames for the “Social Key” - it’s already taken care of (passively) with your body language.

The only reason you would need to actively establish a “Social Frame” is if you had poor fundamentals/body langauge.

But even when I had poorer body langauge when I was younger - I was still pulling from cold approach, and without any “social key” or rapport or any comfort.

I now believe that it’s best to aim for having the best and most relaxed body language in any place or venue you’re in, that’s been my goal for years now and it’s been very successful.

I think guys in seduction have unique insight into Body Language and fundamentals that allows us to outcompete normie guys who are far behind the 8 ball and those guys aren’t even aware why.