How to reverse TERRIBLE negative social proof

Kaida

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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This experience really helped me put into perspective that peoples perceptions of you is almost 100% dependent on frames.

In some places I’m THE man and this taught me perceptions can make me a loser. I’m taking peoples perceptions of me a lot less personal after this

————————————————————

Im on a week-long trip with my high school track team and the negative social proof for me has been building up quite a bit. This trip has taught me that while I do have my moments, I actually lack some basic social skills. Im now realizing that basic “social charisma” is what I should be focusing on first before “sexual charisma”

I have good “looks-based” fundamentals like posture and attractiveness, so I’m usually taken well or at least neutrally in most social circles, but I must have fucked up big time here.


Long story short, I’m now in a place where girls as a group think I’m rude, lame, or weak and its incredibly hard to provide actual value to counter it (the guys are cool mostly but I look weaker in front of them now. I’ve been getting disrespected more).

This is likely due to me being too “pick-up” oriented in a social circle environment, teasing the girls in possibly rude ways, and messing up when trying to provide value.

I was previously neutral or even high value before, and now it has just dropped hard.

Theres a fairly charismatic individual on the team that everybody likes because his emotions are hella infectious

(he could say something so normal like “I’m NOT doing that” but the emotion and emphasis behind it just makes everyone laugh).

And so when trying to emulate the stuff he does - and some of it worked a little - but most of the time it keeps getting framed in a value taking way.

Normally I would just restart somewhere else or something but this is a social circle I’m going to be in for a while, and cant just eject (though we’re not going to see each other for a few months, which may help “forget” their perception of me).


This negative social proof loop is fucking me, I put myself in quite the situation here. How do I counter it?
 
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trashKENNUT

Cro-Magnon Man
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Long story short, I’m now in a place where girls as a group think I’m rude, lame, or weak and its incredibly hard to provide actual value to counter it (the guys are cool mostly but I look weaker in front of them now. I’ve been getting disrespected more).

Let me get back to you in a week or less.
I been on both sides of aisle. And I have seen how females control the narrative, and destroy my schoolmate.

TLDR: You can't recover immediately..

but there's ways to destroy the momentum while you steer the ship in your direction.


p.s: Now, I have to take a cautious tone to this topic when I respond because this is a pickup forum. It has so many other variables that is not from pickup, that it is difficult for me to elaborate this without being viewed as evil/negative/dark.

z@c+
 

Calibration

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Though it doesn't help for this situation, I'd strongly suggest to not try pickup techniques in your social circles. I've got burnt in a lot of social circles cos of this and had to learn it the hard way. There are a lot of simps in social circles and they'll cancel you with every opportunity they get. So, try it only after you've mastered it through cold-approach.

Anyway, regarding this situation, your good bet would be to find allies. They should stand by you when others try to pull you down. It's better if they're girls but doesn't really matter. You need to have at least a few of them. Just one or two won't work since they don't want to risk their reputation trying to help you. You can go silent for a few days and notice who are the key members of the group and try to meet them outside. Be overly friendly with them. Even if you have to simp a bit, do it. This is just to show that you're normal. Most girls are used to simps and they see anyone who's not, as abnormal unless you're a Chad. Good luck mate.
 

Chase

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@Kaiderman,

The good news is you’re on summer vacation, so you’ve got an excuse for a reset.

There are two things you need to do this summer:

  1. Get a complete image (superficial) makeover

  2. COMPLETELY revamp the way you deal with people

Ideally you will spend the entire summer in heavy socialization, with as many cool people as possible, totally focused on both a.) charisma in general (I would suggest you pick a role model from my charisma breakdown series and try to turn yourself into him this summer) and b.) the Law of Least Effort in particular, becoming a cool, likable, value-giving guy. You are going to need to do heavy socializing for that, because you’re very rough, and needs lots of practice to figure out how you need to behave to make yourself likable while still being able to be more assertive / outgoing.

The image makeover is necessary because when you show back up to school with a completely different hairdo, different clothes, a different presentation, the initial reaction from everyone will be “Wow, Kaiderman COMPLETELY transformed over the summer!”

At which point they are going to go into reassessment mode to see if you really are different, or if it’s only skin deep. That is where the massive social experience and refinement from the summer comes in.

If you are successful in patching up your social problems over summer, the rebrand will hold. If not, after a few weeks or months people will get used to the new Kaiderman, realizing he is the same as the old Kaiderman, just with different outer packaging.

I did a rebrand myself in high school, going from sophomore to junior year. I even built buzz for it beforehand so it would not look sudden, telling people I would be “Chase Amante 2000” (it was the summer of 1999). People were openly speculating on how my personality would be different come fall. There was a big expectation I’d be a completely different person.

I did pull off some change, but not quite as much as I’d hoped. Though my appearance was completely different, and there was a period for several weeks where everyone was checking to see if I really was very different (and actually some debate among kids, where I overheard some kids saying I was still the same, and others saying no, Chase has changed this or that about his behavior). If I had to go back and do it over, I would’ve spent the whole summer going way hard on non-stop socializing, with as many different groups of people as possible, working out all the kinks so I could present as a genuinely new-and-improved me that fall semester… well, as much as is possible in three months.

You won’t be able to fix everything. But if you can fix enough to show you’re not as lame as you’d been acting before, and you couple that with a dramatic makeover, people will give you a chance to reset your reputation.

Chase
 

Kaida

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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This is amazing, thanks so much @Chase sincerely. This experience was really a wakeup call because I’ve almost never been treated this much like a loser in my life

The image makeover is necessary because when you show back up to school with a completely different hairdo, different clothes, a different presentation, the initial reaction from everyone will be “Wow, Kaiderman COMPLETELY transformed over the summer!”

I understand the hairdo and clothes part of the appearance makeover, but what exactly makes up your “presentation”? That seems like the most important part.


Ideally you will spend the entire summer in heavy socialization, with as many cool people as possible, totally focused on both a.) charisma in general (I would suggest you pick a role model from my charisma breakdown series and try to turn yourself into him this summer) and b.) the Law of Least Effort in particular, becoming a cool, likable, value-giving guy.

What modification to this heavy socialization plan would you suggest to someone who can’t go out many parties + cant really stay out late like that?

I can drive, just parties in particular are limited to maybe one every 2 weeks and it cant even be the really lit ones because I cant stay out late. (I would sneak out but parents got cameras)
 
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Chase

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@Kaiderman,

This is amazing, thanks so much @Chase sincerely. This experience was really a wakeup call because I’ve almost never been treated this much like a loser in my life

Don't mention it.

Treat school as a place to just practice being as cool and well-liked as possible. It's not a place to pick up.

If you end up with parties and can make out with a girl there, cool. Keep your teases light otherwise though; just be cool but fly under the radar.

This is the "play it safe" route. There's always the "risk it big and bold" route, but it seems like you tried that already and aren't thrilled with the results... so I'd do "play it safe & be cool."

I understand the hairdo and clothes part of the appearance makeover, but what exactly makes up your “presentation”? That seems like the most important part.

Just some examples:

  • The way you walk
  • The way you look at people
  • The deliberateness with which you move
  • How you smile / other expressions you use
  • Your basic mannerisms
  • Little flourishes, like how you take a seat
  • Your posture (erectness, comfortableness)
  • How you respond to social challenges (relaxed, in control)

Hair and clothes are the most obvious signals. All the other stuff supports it though, and backs it up with, "Wow, he really does seem to have changed, even at the deeper superficial level."

What modification to this heavy socialization plan would you suggest to someone who can’t go out many parties + cant really stay out late like that?

I can drive, just parties in particular are limited to maybe one every 2 weeks and it cant even be the really lit ones because I cant stay out late. (I would sneak out but parents got cameras)

You need to refine the way you act with other people:

  • How cool you are
  • The way you use humor / teases
  • When to lead vs. when to hang back
  • What types of stories to tell
  • What sorts of things to propose
  • Etc.

For that you really just need as much socializing as possible with as many people as possible.

Not sure if you're in the suburbs or how you get around without driving, but just a few recommendations:

  • Be outside every day with people, preferably your own age
  • Do activities and find a way to get there (have your folks drive you, carpool with others, etc.)
  • Go around your neighborhood doing outdoors stuff and invite neighbors your age to join you

Examples of activities you might need to get a ride to go do that aren't parties / late at night:

  • Bowling
  • Tennis
  • Swimming
  • Hiking
  • Ceramics
  • Dance class
  • Summer school
  • Snowboarding / skiing
  • Lake or ocean sports (surfing, wakeboarding, boating... heck, even building sand castles)

Stuff you can probably do right in your neighborhood and keep an eye out for age-peers and invite them to join you when you see them:

  • Basketball
  • Skateboarding
  • Jogging
  • Biking
  • Swimming (river / lake)

Just be meeting people, approaching them, inviting them, or chatting them up if nearby as much as possible.

Be outside, around people, finding people, having fun, and try to build relationships everywhere you go.

If you do that for a summer, and you really put the effort into it, you'll have a notable boost in social skills come fall semester.

(you'll have to hustle though. Slouch & you'll be the same old Kaiderman come fall!)

Chase
 

Kaida

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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@Chase

Okay, so I’ve already started socializing a good amount (as much as I can anyway. I can really only go to the gym and walmart as often as I want ;( ) and I’m about to get a job around teenagers so thats another plus. I can already feel positive changes, heavy thanks.

I’m about a 6.5/10 in socializing 1 on 1 when I’m feeling average. It’s the group conversations that really bring out my ineptitude. I think people cut you a lot less slack when you misfire in groups

As a kid I remember shying away from group conversations on purpose, and I still kind of do. They somewhat scare me.

So I don’t embarrass myself, do you have any tips I for joining and conversing in groups where you are the only real outsider / new guy? (I understand some embarrassment is a necessary but still)
 

Chase

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@Chase

Okay, so I’ve already started socializing a good amount (as much as I can anyway. I can really only go to the gym and walmart as often as I want ;( ) and I’m about to get a job around teenagers so thats another plus. I can already feel positive changes, heavy thanks.

Awesome! Do that all summer, and keep hustling for opportunities to socialize and pushing your comfort zone on social skills and you'll have a very productive couple of months.

I’m about a 6.5/10 in socializing 1 on 1 when I’m feeling average. It’s the group conversations that really bring out my ineptitude. I think people cut you a lot less slack when you misfire in groups

As a kid I remember shying away from group conversations on purpose, and I still kind of do. They somewhat scare me.

So I don’t embarrass myself, do you have any tips I for joining and conversing in groups where you are the only real outsider / new guy? (I understand some embarrassment is a necessary but still)

I don't think I have an article on it (maybe I should get one up), but here are some of the rules I personally follow:

  1. When new, when you're the only outsider in an already cohesive group, mostly keep your mouth closed and just go along with what the other folks are doing (unless it's something you super object to, like drugs, etc.). Don't worry about making yourself 'known' or anything... just worry about learning the lay of the land within the group

  2. Slowly build relationships one-on-one with people within the group. Target different people, get them one-on-one when you can, and build relationships. This helps you understand people within the group better, and makes them more sympathetic to you even if you commit a faux pas

  3. Start slowly, carefully experimenting with activity within the group. Don't try seizing the lead... just make a few funny remarks, or interject with an opinion or a story here and there, then go back to being quiet and gauge your reception. If it was lukewarm or worse, recalibrate. If it was good, that's good, but that doesn't mean you can jump all over dominating the group overeager-like just yet. Warm or not, you still need to ease your way into the group

  4. Most importantly, keep in mind that the group has an established way of doing things, and that they will welcome you if you are open to learning that, and not trying to rock the boat. If instead you are trying to take the group over, or coming in guns blazing, no group ever likes that, and they will work together to push back against you... so don't do that

  5. Slow and steady wins the race, in essence

Maybe other guys have different ways of dealing with already-established groups.

That's my way of tackling them, however. At least in my case, I find it keeps me liked, let's me avoid turning myself into a jackass before I know who's who and what the group likes and dislikes, and generally by a couple of months in I'm pretty well established as a part of the group, know the rules and norms of that group, and am accepted as "one of them", with all the intragroup freedoms and privileges that comes with.

Chase
 

trashKENNUT

Cro-Magnon Man
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Kaiderman,

Chase responses to this thread, might help.





 

Kaida

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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@Chase

Update:

School starts for me in 2 days (It’s not the club track team I was talking about earlier, but the improvements still apply) and I’ve done pretty much everything as much as I could:

- I organized my wardrobe and went out on a $350+ shopping spree buying cool, tight fitting clothes that grab hella attention without making it too tryhard - kind of unavoidable thi imo.

- I been growing out my hair all summer so now I got a new twist hairstyle that looks great

- I found it pretty hard to fix my “presentation” in general, but one thing I did was start speaking a lot louder and with more enthusiasm and creating “spotlights”. Before, I was scared of other people listening in and judging my conversations so I spoke low.


One thing that wasn’t too accurate was the socializing part. I wasn’t able to get a varied group of people to socialize with. But I’ve been socializing heavy with my football team every single day except Sunday (100+ person team) and church friends. My football friends tease hard and sometimes test your dominance so I feel like that toughened my skin well and made me more of an asshole.

One of the things that gave me 70+% of my gains in my opinion was your “What I want vs What you want” article. That perspective was all I needed to finally get myself to focus on a few fundamentals instead of trying to do it all like previously. It made me realize that I was avoiding bringing attention to myself because I was too “you want” focused.

Now, I’m focusing on gaining as much attention as possible and creating spotlights that other people want to step into while still keeping the law of least effort in mind.


Overall I’m super excited to see how this shit goes. Thanks a lot

(I’m probably going to work on facial expressions next after I get “Be loud, strong, and attention grabbing” down pat)
 
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Terms

Space Monkey
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One quick thing I picked up reading this. It sounds like you practiced game on girls in your social circle. Its a good idea to play it safe with social circles, and find ways to practice the riskier stuff in a consequence-free setting with girls you're not likely to see again.

I think you already get that now, but felt it worth noting.
 

Kaida

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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One quick thing I picked up reading this. It sounds like you practiced game on girls in your social circle. Its a good idea to play it safe with social circles, and find ways to practice the riskier stuff in a consequence-free setting with girls you're not likely to see again.

I think you already get that now, but felt it worth noting.

Yeah, it’s just that not making any moves in the place I’m spending more time in than I am at home feels like im castrated. And I’d hate to have to talk for months on end to one girl for a chance to just kiss like all these other guys do

How do you approach social circle game as a beginner without being super inefficient
 

Terms

Space Monkey
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Yeah, it’s just that not making any moves in the place I’m spending more time in than I am at home feels like im castrated. And I’d hate to have to talk for months on end to one girl for a chance to just kiss like all these other guys do

How do you approach social circle game as a beginner without being super inefficient
With social circles your game has to include guarding social reputation, if you lose this you lose every girl, and the guys, and other fun and social opportunities.

My approach to social circles is to be a cool, chill, high value, value-giving guy. Which it sounds like you were before you tried gaming too hard, you say you were seen somewhere between neutral and high value. That's a good slot.

You'll notice in social circles that girls will take turns crushing on different guys over time, each crush can last from a week or so to a few months (with the occasional lifelong crush). Acting in the manner above will maximize the amount that girls will crush on you.

When you know that they are, you move quickly but doesn't have to be super-fast or too eager either. Doesn't have to be very gamey, its more about showing them a bit of interest, isolating them and escalating.

Think of it more as fishing. You can't go hunt a fish, you have to be still, attract them with a lure, wait till they hook, and then reel them in.

If you want to practice the fast-game stuff, try going to the mall to cold approach, or something similar, where the clock matters and you're not likely to see them again.
 

Kaida

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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With social circles your game has to include guarding social reputation, if you lose this you lose every girl, and the guys, and other fun and social opportunities.

My approach to social circles is to be a cool, chill, high value, value-giving guy. Which it sounds like you were before you tried gaming too hard, you say you were seen somewhere between neutral and high value. That's a good slot.

You'll notice in social circles that girls will take turns crushing on different guys over time, each crush can last from a week or so to a few months (with the occasional lifelong crush). Acting in the manner above will maximize the amount that girls will crush on you.

When you know that they are, you move quickly but doesn't have to be super-fast or too eager either. Doesn't have to be very gamey, its more about showing them a bit of interest, isolating them and escalating.

Think of it more as fishing. You can't go hunt a fish, you have to be still, attract them with a lure, wait till they hook, and then reel them in.

If you want to practice the fast-game stuff, try going to the mall to cold approach, or something similar, where the clock matters and you're not likely to see them again.

I like the fish analogy, very helpful. Thanks!
 

Kaida

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Alright so the season started up again. Some really cute new girls joined.

First day was cool. I’m much better at my basic social skills like making conversation, adding value and especially the law of least effort thanks to @Chase. I’m less reactive and more chill and I think people are noticing.

Most people are treating me neutrally/slightly positively despite the bad effects of last season 4 months ago. The people who are still treating me negatively are the people who really got off on giving me a hard time. I think some of them even started talking to the new cute girls about me unfortunately.


Last season, I wasn’t defending my reputation strongly and kind of just rolled over when they took shots at me / challenged me. Made for a very bad downward spiral. Now, I plan to defend my reputation in a strong but savvy way.


So, in preparation I’ve been trying to brainstorm some responses to certain situations that popped up repeatedly last year and may happen again.

I would heavily appreciate it if yall could help come up with some


  • Little kid with very witty mouth taking shots at me and everyone laughs

  • I say something normal like an opinion or some addition and somebody dismisses it (“who cares about that?”)

  • Group of 4+ girls gossiping about something benign I’m doing while sneaking looks at me (Most of the time i cant hear exactly what they’re saying). Sometimes they wont look at me but i can hear my name in there.

  • 2-3 girls in a group coming up and busting my balls for no reason (“Ur so ugly yaddah yaddah” Same girls that let me feel up their ass for half an hour lol)

  • Saying something seriously / Just doing something and people laugh at it for no reason.

This stuff almost never happens in other circles I’m in, so its not like I’m actually being super weird. (maybe sometimes I do something a tad unusual, but due to my reputation they nitpick and blow it out of proportion)


Any responses/frameworks I can use for these? All help is appreciated!
 
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Kaida

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Group of 4+ girls gossiping about something benign I’m doing while sneaking looks at me (Most of the time i cant hear exactly what they’re saying). Sometimes they wont look at me but i can hear my name in there.

Possible response I came up with:

Go meta and assume moral authority:

“You guys need to do better. If it wasn’t me whoever you’re gossiping about would be hurt. Grow up.” (Disappointed face / Voice tone)

If these were strangers doing this stuff, I wouldn’t bother with a comeback. But this is a social circle I’m more or less locked into, with cute girls on the outside viewing the interaction. I have to demand respect here with an appropriate comeback.

Any feedback would be appreciated!
 
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