How We Judge Others is How We Judge Ourselves

[The Emerald Archer]

I came across this interesting article from Mark Manson about judging other people. I know Mark has gone mainstream with a lot of his writing and opinions, but I find he has some good gems here and there, and this is one of them.

This particular section of the article stuck out to me:

I once knew a guy who was a loser. He was socially awkward and nobody liked him. He saw the world as a popularity contest, a contest that he was perpetually losing. Everything from how much he earned at work, to the poor service he got at restaurants, to the people who didn’t laugh at his jokes.

If someone was rude to him it was because they realized how much cooler they were than him. If someone was kind to him it was because they saw how much of a loser he was and took pity on him. Or perhaps they were just bigger losers than he was.

He measured himself through his social status. And naturally he measured the world and the people in it through social status.

I instantly thought of some of the posters on here who are obsessed with wanting to be the guy who fist bumps "alpha" dudes when they walk into a room or the guy who shows up to a bar/club with hot girls on his arm to make other people jealous.

It makes perfect sense, if they were socially awkward back in high school/college then that's the yardstick they use to measure themselves now in adulthood. That's why "just game and pickup" doesn't seem to be enough for these folks, or why they see someone in a happy relationship living out in the 'burbs as a "loser."

There's a couple of other examples, like the poor kid who is obsessed with becoming rich, or the born-again Christian who judges everyone around them who hasn't "found Jesus" and whatnot. You guys should take a gander at the article.

But the part about the social status stuck out to me right away since there's been a lot (gazillion maybe?) of posts revolving around social status and popularity going on in the forums these past 4-5 months or so and this excerpt does a good job of understanding some of the "why".

 

[Train]

I noticed a similar pattern in my life. I thought I was ugly in school. So I spent years obsessed about my and others' looks.

I would seek compliments from people close to me all the time.

I think the "ultimate" self-help advice, if any, is self-awareness. Examining our values and assessing how our thoughts and actions effectively align with these.

Example:

Why did I value looks? Because I felt ugly. I thought looks was king in attraction. Why did I care? Because I wanted romantic relationships. Intimacy.

And then comes adjusting thoughts and actions. I value intimacy. The "looks = attraction' thought is a limiting belief. Discard this thought since it doesn't help. Take the action to approach women. And so on.

 

[The Emerald Archer]

@Train I can relate to the looks thing a lot, not necessarily in terms of fashion or facial features, but muscles and physique. I used to be very insecure about being chubby growing up and not having had abs or being shredded while I was in high school. A huge part of that reason too was getting girls. I thought that having muscles and being shredded was the king of attraction and that I wasn't getting chicks because my physique "wasn't quite there yet" and needed more improvement. Talk about limiting beliefs haha smh

So because I didn't have abs and wasn't very lean, I valued being strong and being able to perform physically (and I still value that to this day), but I would judge others harshly who were leaner and more cut than me as being weak and soft, and that they were lean because they didn't value primal strength and that they weren't training and moving the way we were designed to. That they were superficial and shallow for valuing looks over function and primal strength. There is scientific evidence behind why training for strength is actually better for you than training bodyparts like a bodybuilder though (a conversation for another post).

I used to love getting compliments about how muscular I was (and I have gotten A LOT over the years) or how big and string my muscles were, even though deep down I always felt like I could look better or that I didn't really look that good, despite all the validation and compliments from others.

It's amazing how much of an impact the insecurities of our formative years can have on our psyches as adults, even in subtle and unconscious ways that go undetected until you start practicing self-awareness and journaling and reflecting. Nice point you made about this Train.

 

[Train]

Great self-reflection there! Good to see how aware you are of your motives and beliefs. I got into lifting for similar reasons. I wanted to look and be powerful.

It's funny how we get our goals (looking muscular, fit) and don't see it. Even to this day, I still think I'm not quite there as well. Interesting how our thoughts can make two separate people see the same thing differently.

 

[YS.]

Isn't that a realization?

I used to judge girls all the time based on their sexuality (read: sluttiness) and judge them badly. And guess what? It was so fucking hard for me to be sexual and engage in that activity because every time I judged them I reinforced that shit as negative and not part of me. The moment, I could see a thong in a girl and not judge her but be like good for her. was the moment I could sense a great tension relieving and me being congruent in that space.

Another anecdote. I run a service business and I've been trying to make it online for almost 4 years. (LOL) By creating infoproducts. Guess what? I used JUDGE the shit out of infoproducts that I didn't even pay for (read: torrented) and I was such a stuck up retarded asshole like oh I don't like the angle he's talking about this issue for a product this guy probably killed himself for. AND GUESS FUCKING WHAT? When I started to create my own product, it was HELL on earth. Because I judged everything so much, nothing was good enough and I couldn't even start for 2.5 years because of the massive resistant, judgement value and expectations I've had.

Judgement is death. We should strive to eliminate it from out lives at all cost. People do not realize fucking someone over (or being negative to them in our instance) hurts you much more than it hurts them, and this is not some hippy shit but rather a sacred universal truth of life, because it puts you on that train track and oh boy, that is not a train track of success or action; but of duality, scarcity and fear.

 

[Lover]

Thanks for sharing, @The Emerald Archer. It made me think of my own judgement towards others. And boy, I might have judged a bit more than I thought. And my judgement comes from feeling superior.

1. When I decided I didn't want to see life as a popularity contest anymore, I saw it as something people "beneath" me did. Why would anyone try to live up to the expectations of others and not be "real" instead? I judged those who lived life that way. That was until I met some guys that was actually cool because they played the status game with each other and other people that wanted to play it, but they didn't with guys like me who didn't play. We went to class together in high school, and despite not hanging out with them every weekend, I felt they were cool and included me when I was around. I stopped judging people playing status game after that.

2. This is kind of like the new-born Christian that Mark mentions: I tend to judge people with low level of ambition in their lives because I myself have more ambition than the average person. And I would be all about making people find their call in life and whatnot when I sensed they weren't happy with their life, and I figured "it must be because they don't have something to work for". My dad made sure I found something to work for at a young age. When people didn't want to find their calling (and most don't), I would feel weird about such a person. How can you not try to find your call in life? What's so amazing about just staying where you are?

These days, I can accept that most people are not and will not become ambitious about anything in the near future. But I have a hard time letting such people get too close to me. It's okay as long as I don't judge them. They can live their lives as they desire.

It comes with a problem of only talking about ambitions though: you can't connect with most people. Hector's series on dumbing down helped me out a lot with this particular issue! Even the most ambitious people need to get a break and probably only talk about their ambitions when they are working on it or getting paid for it. This was a hard lesson for me.

Perhaps I have always judged people the way I judge myself - being less than "ambitious" is not enough. And trying to become the most popular to impress others? Why would you do that?

But it is nothing more than another way of comparing yourself to others.

Everybody is just living the lives they are comfortable living. It's really as simple as that. Different shades of grey.

 

[The Emerald Archer]

It's funny how we get our goals (looking muscular, fit) and don't see it. Even to this day, I still think I'm not quite there as well. Interesting how our thoughts can make two separate people see the same thing differently.

Yeah, for some reason it takes our brain a while to catch up with our new reality. Other people can usually see your success before you do. Think of an anorexic girl who thinks she's fat when it's obvious to everyone else around her that in fact she's thin, probably too thin. Just goes to show the power our beliefs can hold over us.

Judgement is death. We should strive to eliminate it from out lives at all cost. People do not realize fucking someone over (or being negative to them in our instance) hurts you much more than it hurts them, and this is not some hippy shit but rather a sacred universal truth of life, because it puts you on that train track and oh boy, that is not a train track of success or action; but of duality, scarcity and fear.

Yeah, I think it's important to still be selective and have standards. For instance, you probably don't want to spend too much time hanging around people with drug abuse problems or folks who let money burn a hole in their pockets because their behavior WILL influence you and it will happen subconsciously too

It sounds harsh, but if you want to become the strongest version of yourself (going all Elliott Hulse here haha) then you do have to discriminate lest you be dragged down to their level.

The difference between harsh negative judgment and being cautious/selective about who you let into your inner circle and let influence you, is that negative judgment is disgust, and usually comes from a place of fear.

Like your example about judging women for being slutty (which a lot of men judge women harshly for). An experienced girl can make such a man feel insecure because he doesn't know how to handle her or maintain his frame with these types of gals, etc. In other words, he's afraid of getting hurt/not feeling dominant and in control.

So, to compensate, this man just dismisses them as inferior people who are somehow "beneath" him vs. having empathy and trying to understand that they probably have higher testosterone than the average gal and behave more like men, or are way more open to new experiences and novelty-seeking than the average girl or had an unstable upbringing (say, parents that divorced) so she slept around to make herself feel better, etc. You get the point.

Another one. Ever notice people who harshly judge other men for being gay/homoerotic? I mean really judge them harshly, like a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim. Again, fear. Could be fear of upsetting God, fear of developing homoerotic urges or normalizing homoeroticism if they spend too much time around gay folks, etc. So, they pass judgment and say it's wrong, disgusting, sinful, shameful, etc. instead of seeing them as another human being with goals, values, virtues like everyone else.

@Lover

Your example of social status reminds me of something similar. There was a period of time ~5 years go where I left my group of "friends" and jumped ship into a new circle when I joined my fraternity. I never got super close with my fraternity brothers, like I did my first social circle and there were times when I would see them on Snapchat partying and drinking and I would find myself judging them as being unproductive, not thinking big picture with their lives, being too comfortable and complacent, etc.

Whereas when I was out partying with them I wouldn't be thinking those things, only if I wasn't invited. A defense mechanism is all it was for me, to not make me feel like I was missing out, but that I was being "better". There's a fine line though, I do think that too many young people go out and get drunk way too often and end up living more mediocre lives as a result.

There's nothing wrong with having fun or going out and partying/drinking (and this is coming from someone who was in the party scene HARD), but when it's guys who just go out and get wasted, eat shitty food after a night out, wake up hungover and watch tv/Netflix all day, don't work out don't have a skill or hobby they're getting better at, etc. (in other words, men who aren't improvement-oriented and are too busy being comfortable), it becomes difficult not to have a chip on your shoulder when you yourself are improvement-oriented.

These days, I can accept that most people are not and will not become ambitious about anything in the near future. But I have a hard time letting such people get too close to me. It's okay as long as I don't judge them. They can live their lives as they desire.

Exactly! That's my take on this too. They can live their lives how they please, but I will take caution not to spend too much time around them to prevent their worldview or bad habits or limiting beliefs that hold me down. Also, if they try to judge me for my choices (like judging me as irresponsible for wanting to be an entrepreneur vs. getting a "real" job or wanting to travel down an unconventional path in life that goes against social programming (like traveling to exotic countries and partying/meeting girls) then I will judge them for their choices. But I think it's justified in that case haha.

 

[Mr.Rob]

There is a truly amazing aspect of learning pickup that can propel you into self actualization and wake you up and in a weird spiritual way let you access higher levels of consciousness. (All by learning to bang chicks lol)

You understand people and the world better and are able to see that being high social status isn't even real but a paper tiger.

You realize were all one and some people are awake and others aren't.

You seek win win relationships and look to build others status and not your own because you have so much value that your "cup runneth over". This paradoxically makes you ultra high status by being high consciousness.

I personally think Chase, RSD Tyler, Sasha daygame, and James Marshall are all great pickup teachers in this regard as they teach you how to get your lower ego needs met but also transcend the petty and self actualize into someone who serves the world.

This is the real beauty of the pickup journey but only a tiny tiny percentage realize the opportunity and stay stuck in lower consciousness "fuck chicks and be the coolest guy ever"

But everyone is on the journey they need to experience for them.

 

[Chrance]

This happens for me in field, in the club, when I see a pua approach and have success. Even when it isn’t a girl I wanted, still, it forces me to look inward to see how I compare. The emotional effects range from (a) feeling motivated to go very hard to (b) jealousy and paralysis, where the only way to get myself moving is to restart at a different club.

As time goes on though, I’ve grown to not care or notice as much, but it is deffinitely one of those potential AA-inducing threats

 

[Carousel]

Manson is writing his usual crap for the mainstream, backed by some half-truths and a shitload of undocumented claims.

In this case, he is rationalizing mediocrity. Because the majority of people will never excel or even be advanced at something, by pure statistics. Therefore, you earn more money by assuring them that they should be content with this, rather than striving to be the best they can be.

I did not have to read further than here to see this in action:

"In that article, I wrote that it’s important to measure ourselves by our own internal metrics as much as possible. The more external our metrics for our own value and self-worth, the more we screw everything up for ourselves."

Taken to the extreme, this just creates delusional people who have no idea about what the BASELINE achievement is. I know he is talking about "value and self-worth", however the examples he uses are not limited to that.

For example, what SHOULD an average male bench press if he lifts 3x/week for 5 years?
What SHOULD you earn after spending 5 years on a degree?
What SHOULD you master if you work on PU skills for 5 years?

Especially the first is a well defined standard and if you perform worse than it, you should conclude that you are doing something wrong and change it to the better. If you notoriously underperform on various areas in life, you should conclude that you have a more GENERAL defect like lack of discipline or refusal to take advice and then you SHOULD NOT think that everything is OK until you have fixed that.

If you can't define a baseline achievement, you can't evaluate your progress or whether you are even on the right track. This is true regardless whether your goal is to become the Everyman or the Expert.

People who think everything is OK or worse, awesome, when they underperform are just narcissists who argue on an equal basis with those who achieved baseline achievement or master the topic. Just go to a "wantepreneur" forum to see this in action. Lots of people who can't hold a normal job, but who still knows better than the average man.

I never perform worse than when I go out and "Not care" at all about the outcome. For all this chatter about "outcome dependence", this is not as well known because the more numerous inexperienced guys all care too much - but the reverse will at some point start to bite you in the ass, as strange that it may sound. I see the same with people who are too content in other areas of life - you need SOME kind of drive to succeed in business, scientific research, sports etc.

Yes, some of these drives may be unhealthy, like an enormous ego or endless greed, but Manson is just implicitly using the fallacy that all sorts of drive is unhealthy.

This crap has much deeper roots than scam writers. such as Manson. While their therapeutic methods are great, Eastern religions like Buddism seem to imply a certain sort of denialism in the sense that the real world is suffering and that the ego should be totally extinguished. These are often hailed as some sort of superior philosophy in the Western world. Christianity is also a world-denying religion, "the last shall become the first" and justice shall be served in the Afterlife. This is useful propaganda for greedy and abusive elites to keep their subordinates in check.

Personally I reject all of this. My worldview is based on a non-theistic form of Indo-European Paganism of which Norse Paganism is a subset. This worldview cares little about any afterlife and is rather focused on striving for excellence in the real world, or at least for doing the best you can, but striking a balance towards that you should never become too cocky or greedy.

 

[Chrance]

You actually kinda summed up how I felt about that article @Carousel. It was very platitudinal.

Just think. If you don’t have standards for yourself and judge yourself compared to others you will not get far with anything. Naturally, we see other people accomplish things we want, which is proof that what we want can be obtained, so we set a higher bar for ourselves, meaning no excuses, which can potentially make ourselves feel subpar, but this is needed to improve.

Example: If senior members here can get laid weekly, why can’t I? It must mean there’s something I’m not doing, so my standards are raised

I sense with a lot of judgement free views, there is more fear in being judged than actually judging - like the fear of people throwing rocks at your possibly glass house (too scared of your glass house breaking, so won’t throw rocks yourself).

Although this question - What SHOULD you master if you work on PU skills for 5 years? - definitely deserves a thread and more elaboration. I do not know the answer to this

 

[Carousel]

I sense with a lot of judgement free views, there is more fear in being judged than actually judging - like the fear of people throwing rocks at your possibly glass house (too scared of your glass house breaking, so won’t throw rocks yourself).

There is a detail here that a I should point out. One thing is to "judge" in the emotional way, that may be toxic if done too much/often.

However to OBSERVE the level of achievement of others, OBSERVE their past behavior, or CATEGORIZE in a non-emotional way is definitely crucial. Both for seeing who is worth listening to and how you stack up against others in a pure improvement oriented perspective. Also you will really taste the consequences of not doing this in any sort of future professional or personal relations.

Chase elaborates on this and various stuff I have not talked about here:

Stop Being So Judgmental: It's All Actor-Observer Bias

I've been wanting and meaning to write an article on how to be non-judgmental on here for some time. However, I simply hadn't had quite the right angle to come at the piece with... hadn't, that was, until I did some digging into the depths of social psychology and came up with a gem. Lots of...

www.girlschase.com

Although this question - What SHOULD you master if you work on PU skills for 5 years? - definitely deserves a thread and more elaboration. I do not know the answer to this

That could be an interesting thread. It will be somewhat related to the person's starting point, natural abilities, effort, mentors etc. But still something that can be defined.

 

[YS.]

You guys can't differentiate the difference between having standards of conduct vs judging people?

A Religious Guy who Condones Sexual Expression of Women Could Go:

1) Oh she sucks, what a slut. She'll burn in hell. Fuck her. What a whore.
or...
2) Oh wow. I don't think that is the best path for her. But everyone is on their path and I hope she reaches her one day.

The energy is different. There is a difference between, "God it's a shame bro. I wish you were disciplined and I hope you figure it out." VS "You are an undisciplined POS thus you are a bad person and I'm better than you."

It's a pretty obvious nuance to see in my opinion.

The most successful people don't go around judging people lesser than them. They might not associate with them and hope they become better but they won't judge them. Judgement is reserved for the bitter, the insecure and the weak.

I have never felt the need to judge people when I'm on top of the world. I always felt the need to judge them when I felt shitty or thought they are better than me in some way. It's like a ego/reality defense mechanism for the weak.

 

[Chrance]

if your son was a pedophile would you judge him? Would you want others to not judge him?

(NB: If you think “harming someone” is a factor, keep in mind that to harm someone means to go against or prevent what they want, so hurting someone’s feelings also constitutes harm <== simply putting this here just in case the “but that’s harming someone so pedophiles don’t count!” idea slips in)

 

[YS.]

if your son was a pedophile would you judge him? Would you want others to not judge him?

(NB: If you think “harming someone” is a factor, keep in mind that to harm someone means to go against or prevent what they want, so hurting someone’s feelings also constitutes harm <== simply putting this here just in case the “but that’s harming someone so pedophiles don’t count!” idea slips in)

I would feel sorry for him and I would hope he finds peace. If you ever read/listened to anything with families of murdered people; you will constantly hear the only way to move forward without hate is to forgive the murderer and release the bad energies. Why do you think it's such a common theme?

I'm not saying nobody ever not judges anybody. I'm just saying they shouldn't. FOR THEMSELVES, not for the person they're judging. Bro, judgement is very energy based, it's really hard to describe with words but when you're on top of the world it's almost impossible to go to that dark place. You can't really logic your way out of things but have to experience it.

I think people misunderstand non-judgement and take it to hippie places. I'm not saying not have standards and enforce them. Or see certain people for who they are. But then just say, they are in their journey in life. The energy of your "categorisation" is different. It's not bitter, dark or corrupted. It's very logical and matter-of-fact, which is OK. I wouldn't even call that judgement, but assessment.

(PS: Why the fuck do you even give this horrible of an example in a very mundane thing in the first place?)

 

[Chrance]

@YS. Using obvious or extreme cases is needed to clearly show that a theory has an issue. That’s why. I get what you mean btw

You feeling sorry is you judging him.

It’s a good example in showing the necessity of judging others

Also, for pedophiles fucking kids is finding peace, so you wouldn’t want him to find peace lol, you’d want him to change, to not be who he is

 

[YS.]

@YS. Using obvious or extreme cases is needed to clearly show that a theory has an issue. That’s why. I get what you mean btw

You feeling sorry is you judging him.

It’s a good example in showing the necessity of judging others

Also, for pedophiles fucking kids is finding peace, so you wouldn’t want him to find peace lol, you’d want him to change, to not be who he is

I'm happy if you understood where I'm coming from. I clarified my point more with edits.

I don't think the extremes apply to the norm all that much nor peace or compulsive pleasure is one and the same. (Don't be semantic or twisted about this please, I think you know what I mean by he finds his peace.)

I just think we have different definitions of judgement.

 

[Chrance]

I'm happy if you understood where I'm coming from. I clarified my point more with edits.

I don't think the extremes apply to the norm all that much nor peace or compulsive pleasure is one and the same. (Don't be semantic or twisted about this please, I think you know what I mean by he finds his peace.)

I just think we have different definitions of judgement.

Yeah our definitions are probably different. I was just thinking about that lol

People being shitty in some way is the norm, which is why we execute people and have laws and police officers. People lie and steal all the time. People kill when they feel it’s “right” to do; happens all the time in certain neighborhoods. I’m not innocent of any of these problems btw. But when I feel tempted to lie, me not lying isn’t about self judgement, but that being a liar is for bottom tier humans - hence why there is guilt for lying, and also why I judge people who are liars - They are partaking in something shitty humans do while pretending they are as good as everyone else, so they deserve to be pointed at

There are so many examples of people deserving to be hated for their crap behavior. You can’t have a civil country without harsh judgement. Women themselves are (not always) beautiful specifically because men in the past judged ugly women harshly. Men are the way they are today for the same reason. So many things man! The species could not continue!

Holding loved ones (like your own gf) to a higher standard makes perfect sense and is inevitable. If it makes sense for them, why not other people?

(FYI don’t want to come off like I’m coming at you @YS. Your take on the energy side of judging is interesting. I’m just unloading what’s in my head right now)

 

[Indian Race Troll (IRT)]

I think it really is a matter of being naive versus having seeing it all. The kids who peaked early, were good looking, and had it very easy in life growing up see the world as fairies and rainbows. Anything is possible, anything can be done, and the world is full of good people. I find that this is why so many of the old money kids or those who were genetically blessed are often kind and laid back, they never really had to work for their respect and won people over growing up due to what they were gifted with.

Robert Greene talks about this in his book Laws of Human Nature in the chapter about envy. You have people with so many gifts and they are not even aware about those that envy them until it is too late for some.

Now you take the late bloomers and people who kind of saw the nastier side of the world early, for them, they have seen too much of real life.

For them, they realize that there really is a war out there. You have to be cautious about people you trust and who you affiliate yourself with. Not everyone has good intentions and people will turn on you fast, you have to guard yourself.

You have to be weary of situations you put yourself into because that impacts how efficient and effective you can be.

But there is a balance though.

If you become too paranoid and cautious, now it is rubbing off on people in a bad way. You turn on people who would have otherwise helped you. The vibe you spread is often toxic and you close yourself off to some of the best experiences that could have been.

I use myself as an example here of when I first moved to NYC. When I first moved here, I was still holding on to my bad college experience at my school. Now there was a cool guy in line at a club trying to be social and I was immediately rude to him, reminded me too much of the frat bro archetype, the same type of crowd that ruined my college experience. A week later I run into the guy again and he is friendly but cautious, I could tell I kind of made him paranoid a bit....

I was nicer to him but I know that I jeopardized a friendship due to past traumas.

It's hard to be kind and loving when life dealt you a shitty youth where you were exposed to the worst of humanity in your formative years.

 

[Indian Race Troll (IRT)]

This happens for me in field, in the club, when I see a pua approach and have success. Even when it isn’t a girl I wanted, still, it forces me to look inward to see how I compare. The emotional effects range from (a) feeling motivated to go very hard to (b) jealousy and paralysis, where the only way to get myself moving is to restart at a different club.

As time goes on though, I’ve grown to not care or notice as much, but it is deffinitely one of those potential AA-inducing threats

See, that is what I was actually trying to get at as someone who has been in your fucking shoes years ago man. I used to also feel that way and was all in my head too. Now I get it, you're a smart and well-read guy and that pays off in many ways. The problem here is that when you go out in those environments, especially a nightclub, it is often the aggressive more forward guys who can keep it simple that get the girl.

I used to go out for nights on end and not do a single approach. At times, I'd eye down a girl I was super into but not approach, only to find that minutes later some douche with huge biceps approached her and was making out with her in under an hour.

What could help you a lot is either:

1. Changing yourself to be more simple and dumbing it down in those environments. Women love silly, dumb, and forward in those scenarios. They want guys who can tease them in simple words and have that normal person conversation.

or

2. Changing your environment to be more of a coffee shop or spaces that value intellectual approaches and mindsets. Even there, you will eventually need to be more forward.

Sex at the end is primitive as fuck....