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FR++  "I have a boyfriend" v2.0

jdoc

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Mar 10, 2015
Messages
182
Hey fellas,

Really glad that I seem to be able to pull consistently now. My first pull (ever) was around a month ago, and now I've reached #4. This is huge for me.

I met a German traveller Julia, a couple weeks back. Very cute, with blonde hair, piercing blue eyes, and a slim frame. She's 25. I opened her directly, and it seemed to go pretty well. The chemistry between us was neither electrifying nor boring - it just felt kinda normal and pleasant. We exchanged Facebook details.

Me: Glad to have bumped into you Julia :)
Her: It's awesome how we meet people here in Melbourne. That's why I'm still here and don't wanna go back. how are you? How was the dinner with your friend yesterday?
Seems that I made a good impression! Turns out she lives in the middle of the city - logistics don't get any better than that.

We agreed to meet a week after, but she decided to rain-check. I ended up seeing her 2 weeks later - today.

I meet Julia in a central shopping centre about a 5 minute walk from where she lives. I take her to a bar upstairs, and on the way I throw in a chase frame:
Me: Thanks for dressing up for me by the way! You look great.
[she laughs and seems lost for words]
Me: I like your hat by the way, what's the story behind it?
Her: [laughs] I wear it so I don't need to do my hair!
We arrive at the bar and we grab a seat. I had scouted the place prior to meeting her, to make sure that there was a good spot for us to sit. On my last date with a different gal, I didn't end up using physical touch enough because we were sitting too far away. Julia and I sit down in a dark, secluded spot. I grab us some water, and I mention being good on food for now, but open to the possibility of a beer a little later.

Julia is a very lively gal. She is an extremely free-spirited, and on multiple occasions mentioned that people ought to do whatever they want to do, without being held back. I deep dove her about why she chose to come to Melbourne, her ambitions, dreams, and the type of person she was. All in all, this was probably the most interesting conversation I'd had out of all the dates I'd been on. The energy seemed to flow naturally, and it felt comfortable and playful. Physical touch seemed natural and comfortable. Usually on dates, I lean more towards an intense mysterious vibe, but this time I decided to shake things up a bit... so as to be more playful than intense. I still aimed to sneak in a few pregnant pauses and maintain killer eye contact to generate some sense of sexual tension.

After a couple of minutes of deep diving her:
Her: What about you?
Me: [with a smirk] What about me?
Her: We've been talking about me the whole time! I want to hear about you?
Me: Well what would you like to know?
Her: Well... what do you do?
Me: Can you guess?
Her: Well... you seem creative... are you an artist?
Me: No, but I'd love to be!
Her: Hmm... you're a male model?
Me: What makes you say that!
Her: Well you seem very smooth!
Me: [laughs] You think?
Her: Yes! By the way you talk, your style... and your posture is very good! It's nice!
At some point, we decide to head over to the bar to order food and drinks. At the bar, she leans into me, and we exchange a few playful touches. It feels like it's on. When we sit back down, we talk about dancing. Turns out she's really passionate about dancing.

I seed a thought that will later be useful for the pull.
Me: You know what? There's there's this really awesome video of a dancer that you have to watch. Maybe I'll show you later.
I continue to deep dive and relate topics back to what she finds interesting. Turns out this gal is very free-spirited and like-minded so it's not a difficult task at all. Whenever she wants to flip the switch back on me to find out about me, I evade it and deflect the conversation back to her. It seems to happen really smoothly.

Her: You like to be mysterious I see! I barely know anything about you!
Me: [laughs] What would you like to know?
She then asks me something, which I once again evade and bring the conversation back to her. We begin to talk about music, and I deep dive her about her musical ability. She tells me that she always wanted to be a pianist. I demand compliance and tell her to give me her hand. I caress it a little and tell her she has very delicate hands and that she'd make a good pianist. We continue holding hands a little while and she happily leave hers in mine, and even squeezes it a little at one point.

Eventually the waiter brings out the pizza and spring-rolls (Julia paid for them).
Her: Feel free to have some!
Me: You know what? I had a killer lunch, so I think I'm good.
[Then I think for a split second and reason that I should be accepting and rewarding her investment]
Me: On second thought... I'll have a slice... diabetes here I come!
We then talk about food that's really good to eat whilst stoned.
Me: Oh totally. Everything's so much better when you're stoned. Music sounds amazing. Sex feels awesome. Food tastes great.
Throughout out our dialogue, I wanted to convey that I wasn't judgemental at all about casual sex. At various points, I'd agree with her... such that people should be able to do what they want to do, regardless of what other people might think. At one point she hesitates as she tells me something that would've seemed slightly bitchy about one of her friends. I ensure that I'm not one to judge - "don't worry, this is a no judgement zone!" We get back to our pizza and spring rolls.
Me: Oh this food is sooo good, yet so bad... Julia, you're such a bad influence on me! I've been trying to eat healthy!
Her: [laughs] Yeah, my friends have told me that I'm a bad influence before!
At various points throughout the interaction, Julia would wink at me. At one point:
Me: [playfully] Chica! You keep on winking at me... are you trying to seduce me?
Her: [laughs] Oh it's a little habit of mine!
We continue to vibe and bond for a while longer, yet she still knows very little about me.
Her: You still haven't told me what you did!
Me: [laughs] You still haven't guessed!
Her: You're a... designer!
Me: Think something a little bit more boring.
Her: [laughs] Business..?
Me: Oh god no! Not that boring. [laughs]
Her: Psychology..?
Me: You know what..? [pause] I don't mean to brag... but I'm actually a mind reader!
Her: A mind reader..?!
Me: [enthusiastically] Yep... I know exactly what you're thinking right now.
[killer eye contact]
Her: But... how?
Me: Here, I'll show you. Give me your hands.
[She gives me her hands]
Me: Now turn to face me fully.
[She moves her legs around, and our bodies are now positioned facing straight at each other]
Me: [piercing eye contact, and slowly] You see... the secret to mind-reading is... all about reading the eyes. The eyes are the key to the soul.
We maintain eye contact for a few more seconds, and at some point she begins to laugh and break the tension, saying that it's too intense for her. She calm herself and directs her eyes back to mine shyly. We're still holding hands.
[slowly] Me: You know what..?
Her: What?
Me: You're an interesting gal.
Her: How?
Me: You're just not what I expected.
Her: How do you mean?
Me: Well, I guess I just didn't expect you to be such a bubbly person!
Her: [laughs] Well were you expecting me to be all depressed?
Me: [laughs]
[10 seconds of more dialogue]
Me: [enthusiastically] You know what! I really want to show you this dancing video I was talking about. What say we head back to your pad and kick back for a while?
Her: Okay!
Me: Wait you have speakers right?
Her: Yeah.
Me: Okay, let's go!
[We stand up]
Me: Wait, we gotta finish our beers first!
We clink our glasses and interlock arms as we skull our beers. She winces from drinking too quickly. We walk out of the bar and I put my hand on the small of her back for about 3 seconds, but then pull back for some reason. I think I should've just left it there.

The 5 minute walk back to her place was at around the same energy levels as that in the bar. We both danced around a little in public (creating an us vs. the world mindset) and had a really comfortable conversation. Before we know it, we're back at her place. I tell her to give me a tour, and she leads me straight to her room. At this point the energy changes. I know that I should be kissing her very soon, and my energy kind of recedes and I noticeably quieten. I sit down on her bed. She has a hello kitty doll hung up on the wall and I jump up to observe it.
Her: Oh no, you can sit on my bed!
Me: I just wanna look at your doll! What's the story behind it?
Her: Oh, my boyfriend gave it to me.
Damn it.

I sit back down on the bed, and look for an opportunity to go in for a kiss, but she's sitting too far away. She then proceeds to roll a cigarette and smokes it. I figure that the best time to kiss her would be after she's done smoking. However, at this point, I anticipate that she can sense that the energy has shifted, and that I'm actually just trying to find the right moment kiss her. It's difficult to do so though because she's sitting far away from me, and not leaning into me. I begin to lean in, but she doesn't lean in closer. I realise that I'm chasing. Eventually, she says that she wants me to meet her room mate. I stay sitting on the bed. Eventually, I decide that I need to make a move, even if there's no escalation window or ideal opportunity to kiss her. At this point, I had thought about kissing her (and almost going in for it) two or three times now (at one point, she was wearing a HUGE coat, and I mentioned that I wanted to try it on, and I not-so-smoothly suggested we should put the coat on together, just so that we'd be closer together... it didn't work). I finally decide to go for it (after 15 minutes of being in her room). I grab her hands as she speaks about some boring topic.
Me: Why are you sitting all the way over there! Do I smell or something?
[She moves closer and talks more]
Me: [sly laugh] You're talking a lot right now..!
[I slowly bring my finger to her lips to shush her. She moves back a little bit. I then bring my fingers to her chin and pull her in.
Her: Woah, sorry I have a boyfriend!
[I give her a skeptical look]
Me: I don't care.
Her: But I care!
Me: To be honest, I'm not sure if I'm ready for a threesome with your boyfriend just yet! (BDSC's idea came to mind)
Her: Sorry what? (she doesn't understand the sentence as English isn't her primary language)
Me: [laughs] I'm not ready to have a get together with you and your boyfriend... just yet! [laughs] I'm just being silly. So anyway, you've got these toys in your room. Tell me about them.
We then carry on the conversation as if nothing had happened. At some point her room mate knocks and comes in and asks for some change to buy chips. I warmly exchange a few words before she leaves. Eventually:
Me: [fumbling around with my words a little] You know what? I'm finding it hard to concentrate... I'm just trying to resist kissing you!
Her: [sternly] No, sorry. I have a boyfriend! I thought we were just meeting up as friends!
At this point, it sounds like a hard no, so I stop pushing completely. We talk a while more and she winks at me a few more times.
Me: You're winking at me still. You're trying to seduce me!
Her: [laughs] I'm not! I'll just cover my hands around my eyes.
She cups her hands around her eyes. At this point, I know that's it's game over. We continue to have a light conversation for a little while longer, before she kicks me out to get ready for work. She walks me to the lift and gives me a warm hug.
Her: Today was fun, we have to do it again sometime!
Me: We'll figure something out. Bye Julia!

Final thoughts:
This is my 4th pull within a month, and I'm a little disappointed that I've managed to screw it up every single time. The worst part is not knowing for sure I'm doing wrong. I'm thinking that Julia legitimately thought that we were just hanging out as friends, given the firmness of the no she gave me. I should be screening girls better.

Things to improve on for next time:
1. I think I waited too long to kiss her. There were many times when I was thinking to myself, I really should kiss her right now. Next time I should just kiss her the very moment I feel like doing so.
2. I leaned into her a little too much..? (Although she wasn't leaning much into me, so maybe it was necessary in order to initiate the kiss?)
3. I should leave my hand on the small of her back for longer whilst walking with her.

Thanks for sticking around till now folks, this has been another long one. As always, insight and critique is welcomed and appreciated.

- J
 

HellAtlantic

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jul 1, 2015
Messages
301
I personally don't like the "being mysterious the whole time just for the sake of being mysterious". It's too contrived. If you're high value you should be interesting and as such have interesting things to say about yourself. Just holding back info to keep up a mysterious facade seems silly. If you do it too much you just come off as someone who's uninteresting and boring and trying to make up for it by acting mysterious. I'm not saying that's why she rejected, just saying walk a more balanced line between oversharing info about yourself and holding some back to keep them wondering. But be interesting so you have interesting things to say about yourself. Eventually they'll say "I guess he's not interesting which is why he has nothing to say about himself." Others here might say otherwise but this is my opinion
 

ray_zorse

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
1,982
Being clumsily mysterious is bad. Being smoothly mysterious is good. In this case the mysteriousness was spot on. Note I have found that my level of mysteriousness is strongly correlated to how well my seductions go. I know this b/c on advice of Mark Manson "Models: Attracting women through honesty" and Skype coaching by a Sasha Daygame coach, I stopped being mysterious and started being honest. Results fucking tanked (even though I am an interesting person and engaging conversationalist). I had gotten lazy. Results improved when I returned to my process which is to say "I am a secret agent" when asked what I do, and then make some sort of joke that refers to spy films or novels or MI5 or some such every time she asks about me. Well if I always did this, it would be boring. But I've had some great interactions with hilarious OTT banter. Another possible response is "industrial espionage"... or, when asked what I do "my main occupation is speaking to beautiful women on trains" (or whereever we happen to be)... or "I'm a researcher" "Oh really, what do you research?" "Making women smile" ... (she always smiles here) ... or "At the moment, I'm researching you" ... and quickly turn it back to her. The key I feel is to continue the theme with occasional callback humour "Do you often do this?" "Oh, I am always looking for new research subjects ... preferably beautiful ones". Et cetera... but getting back to jdoc's report, it really sounds like a beautiful seduction except for the points you noted, umm may have missed a window somewhere, or just moved too slow generally. Weird behaviour on her part anyway. But did you express sexual intent? Did you approach direct?? (This is only a very small part of expressing sexual intent, but it does get things off on the right foot). Also, did you escalate the touch throughout the date? This expresses your intent pretty clearly.
Ray
PS I think we discussed previously that I am in Melbourne too. PM me if you would like to meet up. I'm keen to do some more approaching soon, gotten a little lazy lately but I am back in action after r/ship related break. Daygame or nightgame OK ;)
 

Sophisticated Gent

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Aug 5, 2015
Messages
430
jdoc said:
Her: Oh no, you can sit on my bed!
Me: I just wanna look at your doll! What's the story behind it?
Her: Oh, my boyfriend gave it to me.
Damn it.


I looked over the whole thing and I think you got screwed by the doll. She may really have a boyfriend and the doll made her feel guilty she was about to cheat on him. That is where thing seem to fall apart. Other than the energy drop when you got in her room everything looks good. I am curious why your energy drop? I would have been pumped that she led me to her bedroom.

One other thing, I think the way you used the line below it sounded like you where open to a 3 way with her boyfriend in the future.

Me: To be honest, I'm not sure if I'm ready for a threesome with your boyfriend just yet! (BDSC's idea came to mind)

The line should be "I'm not into 3 ways with two guys and one girl so it is just you and me." I know it sounds like semantics but the purpose was to discount the boyfriend. Instead you brought him in more. Also in the case where I suggested it, it was pretty obvious that it was a shit test. In this case I am pretty sure she does have a boyfriend. Making up that the doll was from her boyfriend would have taken a pretty clever person to think of that as a shit test.

Damn good try though. You where pretty much dead in the water at this point anyhow.

Keep up the good work and I think getting with Ray would be an awesome opportunity.

BDSC
 

Teparus

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
168
You're definitely above my level, but:

This is my 4th pull within a month, and I'm a little disappointed that I've managed to screw it up every single time.

A month ago is an eye blink and that's a pretty major hurdle. Seriously, I don't know what your experience with women outside of pickup is, but generally if they're going somewhere totally isolate and alone with you, they like you and are comfortable with you. It's only logic, logistics, etc, getting in the way. You're hitting the right emotional notes most of the time. You're also in the inzone, so fuck yeah, champ. If you can do 4 pulls a month now, in 6 months, you'll probably be getting laid 4x/month -- if you even want to pick up that many randoms. You probably don't need to hear this, but keep on trucking and don't let discouragement slow you down.
 

Ross

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
550
jdoc,

This is my 4th pull within a month, and I'm a little disappointed that I've managed to screw it up every single time. The worst part is not knowing for sure I'm doing wrong. I'm thinking that Julia legitimately thought that we were just hanging out as friends, given the firmness of the no she gave me. I should be screening girls better

You seemed to do everything pretty well. Mysteriousness was spot on, deep diving was spot on, openness to casual relationships, etc. all good. It's the LMR that needs some work.

Things to improve on for next time:
1. I think I waited too long to kiss her. There were many times when I was thinking to myself, I really should kiss her right now. Next time I should just kiss her the very moment I feel like doing so.
2. I leaned into her a little too much..? (Although she wasn't leaning much into me, so maybe it was necessary in order to initiate the kiss?)
3. I should leave my hand on the small of her back for longer whilst walking with her.

I think your technique for all of these was fine. As far as touch goes, you typically want to let it linger long enough to have a desired effect, but not so long as to make things feel awkward, which I think you accomplished because you got back to her room alone.

The important thing for you to realize about LMR is that you began to let her set the frames. She set the frame of the boyfriend, the just friends, etc. and you didn't oppose it with your own frame.

Me: [sly laugh] You're talking a lot right now..!
[I slowly bring my finger to her lips to shush her. She moves back a little bit. I then bring my fingers to her chin and pull her in.
Her: Woah, sorry I have a boyfriend!
[I give her a skeptical look]
Me: I don't care.
Her: But I care!

Case-in-point: instead of setting a frame that her boyfriend wouldn't be an issue of you two sleeping together, you tell her that it doesn't matter to you. When she says it matters to her, you offer no alternative view that would make it alright in her eyes. This trend continues, as you are stuck trying to kiss her even though she still has firmly set the frame that she has a boyfriend, thus she won't kiss you, which ends up being unchallenged.

I have the feeling that you'll see big payoffs soon if you implement better framing. Just remember to set your frames and let them rest - never argue the point with her!
 

jdoc

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Mar 10, 2015
Messages
182
You guys kick ass! Some seriously helpful and eye-opening advice going on here. Thanks for your insights, fellas ;)

HellAtlantic:
HellAtlantic said:
If you're high value you should be interesting and as such have interesting things to say about yourself. Just holding back info to keep up a mysterious facade seems silly. If you do it too much you just come off as someone who's uninteresting and boring and trying to make up for it by acting mysterious.
I guess Ray describes this well - there's mysteriousness done right, and done wrong. I guess if you're doing it right, your fundamentals should make up for the lack of interesting things you have to say about yourself. I've also found that once the gal has to work her way to find out a piece of information about you, the surprise factor is amplified :)

Ray:
Being clumsily mysterious is bad. Being smoothly mysterious is good. In this case the mysteriousness was spot on.
I agree that there's the good, and also the bad. Glad you think my vibe is spot on :)

Another possible response is "industrial espionage"... or, when asked what I do "my main occupation is speaking to beautiful women on trains" (or whereever we happen to be)... or "I'm a researcher" "Oh really, what do you research?" "Making women smile" ... (she always smiles here) ... or "At the moment, I'm researching you" ... and quickly turn it back to her. The key I feel is to continue the theme with occasional callback humour "Do you often do this?" "Oh, I am always looking for new research subjects ... preferably beautiful ones".
Haha this sounds like a lot of fun - throwing a bit of playfulness into the mix as well. I like it!

PS I think we discussed previously that I am in Melbourne too. PM me if you would like to meet up. I'm keen to do some more approaching soon, gotten a little lazy lately but I am back in action after r/ship related break. Daygame or nightgame OK ;)
For sure, I'm all up for it! Would be cool to hang with someone from the boards. Check your PM ;)

BDSC:
I looked over the whole thing and I think you got screwed by the doll. She may really have a boyfriend and the doll made her feel guilty she was about to cheat on him. That is where thing seem to fall apart. Other than the energy drop when you got in her room everything looks good. I am curious why your energy drop? I would have been pumped that she led me to her bedroom.
Yeah, a bummer... ah well. I think the energy drop was on my behalf - the anticipation made me kinda nervous. It wasn't a huge dip in energy, but there was definitely a noticeable drop. I guess I gotta keep practising pulling and eventually I'll become comfortable with being in her room. For now, I guess I'll just focus on keeping the vibe up and quit being in my damn head so much!

One other thing, I think the way you used the line below it sounded like you where open to a 3 way with her boyfriend in the future.
Haha yeah. I realise now I fucked that part up a little bit. At the moment I was pretty lost for words, and funnily enough, your advice was the first to come to mind (even though I misapplied it) ;)

Damn good try though. You where pretty much dead in the water at this point anyhow. Keep up the good work and I think getting with Ray would be an awesome opportunity.
Thanks, bro!

Haraklus:
A month ago is an eye blink and that's a pretty major hurdle. Seriously, I don't know what your experience with women outside of pickup is, but generally if they're going somewhere totally isolate and alone with you, they like you and are comfortable with you. It's only logic, logistics, etc, getting in the way. You're hitting the right emotional notes most of the time. You're also in the inzone, so fuck yeah, champ. If you can do 4 pulls a month now, in 6 months, you'll probably be getting laid 4x/month -- if you even want to pick up that many randoms. You probably don't need to hear this, but keep on trucking and don't let discouragement slow you down.
Always nice to read words of reassurance to let me know that I'm doing at least a couple of things right. Seduction is one of those things in life where it's really easy to run out of steam and lose motivation quickly, especially after repeated unideal outcomes. Thanks for the kind words, bro :)

Mr. Bateman:
You seemed to do everything pretty well. Mysteriousness was spot on, deep diving was spot on, openness to casual relationships, etc. all good. It's the LMR that needs some work.
Glad to hear it! You're right - my next big hurdle is conquering LMR.

I think your technique for all of these was fine. As far as touch goes, you typically want to let it linger long enough to have a desired effect, but not so long as to make things feel awkward, which I think you accomplished because you got back to her room alone.
Awesome, I'll keep it in mind.

The important thing for you to realize about LMR is that you began to let her set the frames. She set the frame of the boyfriend, the just friends, etc. and you didn't oppose it with your own frame.

Case-in-point: instead of setting a frame that her boyfriend wouldn't be an issue of you two sleeping together, you tell her that it doesn't matter to you. When she says it matters to her, you offer no alternative view that would make it alright in her eyes. This trend continues, as you are stuck trying to kiss her even though she still has firmly set the frame that she has a boyfriend, thus she won't kiss you, which ends up being unchallenged.
This makes a whole lot of sense... never really thought of it that way. What are some alternative frames that would effective in this case?

I have the feeling that you'll see big payoffs soon if you implement better framing. Just remember to set your frames and let them rest - never argue the point with her!
Happy to hear it. Will definitely remember this for next time!
 

HellAtlantic

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jul 1, 2015
Messages
301
Here's the thing about mysteriousness. You either have something interesting to keep her wondering about. If you worked in a supermarket, or some dull corporate cubicle job - the payoff is gonna disappoint when or if you finally tell her. She's gonna say "he works in the legal department for his company - what was all the fuss about to make me guess that?!". I you're a fashion photographer, artist or culinary chef - ok, it's cool to make a game out of it. That's what my point is. You want to make sure the end result matches the journey which is why I said "be an actual interesting person, be well rounded", then you'll have interesting things to be mysterious about. If you're going to be mysterious about being a stock boy at department store then it's very contrived. I'm an interesting person with lots of stories and interests so I naturally have things to say about myself when in a conversation - I display high value by sharing the things I like and am passionate about. Again this all my opinion, I'm sure the PU way is closer to what you did.
 

Aquila

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Aug 30, 2015
Messages
19
Obviously a lot of the posters who commented here are a lot more experienced than me, I'm just gonna throw out my opinion and maybe serve as my own learning experience too if others want to comment on this. There are lots of things that cannot be conveyed through writings alone so I could have totally misinterpreted what was actually happening.

I do feel like the whole process seemed a bit too "gamey" and lacked authenticity, and the "mysteriousness" was overplayed. The girl was investing in you (asking what you did several times) but you never rewarded her. Making her guess the first couple times are ok, but eventually you'll have to give her something to keep her investing in you. In Chase's article, he would reveal a little about himself, vaguely and slowly, to keep the girls intrigued. But in this case you didn't even gave her anything, and if she knows nothing about you, there's a lack of emotional connection between the two of you.

Overall, I feel like you seemed to focus too much on technicality and "gaming" her rather than making it a natural, enjoyable experience for her. From personal experience, my frame control is strongest when I focus on being present and authentic, and everything would seem to flow smoothly and naturally, while overemphasizing on being "mysterious" (yes I'd done this a lot in the past) seem to signal a lack of confidence in myself as a man and as an interesting person.
 

HellAtlantic

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jul 1, 2015
Messages
301
Aquila said:
Obviously a lot of the posters who commented here are a lot more experienced than me, I'm just gonna throw out my opinion and maybe serve as my own learning experience too if others want to comment on this. There are lots of things that cannot be conveyed through writings alone so I could have totally misinterpreted what was actually happening.

I do feel like the whole process seemed a bit too "gamey" and lacked authenticity, and the "mysteriousness" was overplayed. The girl was investing in you (asking what you did several times) but you never rewarded her. Making her guess the first couple times are ok, but eventually you'll have to give her something to keep her investing in you. In Chase's article, he would reveal a little about himself, vaguely and slowly, to keep the girls intrigued. But in this case you didn't even gave her anything, and if she knows nothing about you, there's a lack of emotional connection between the two of you.

Overall, I feel like you seemed to focus too much on technicality and "gaming" her rather than making it a natural, enjoyable experience for her. From personal experience, my frame control is strongest when I focus on being present and authentic, and everything would seem to flow smoothly and naturally, while overemphasizing on being "mysterious" (yes I'd done this a lot in the past) seem to signal a lack of confidence in myself as a man and as an interesting person.

Hahaha bro this is *exactly* what I'm saying! I agree. It's very gamey and contrived. Like evade a question once or twice but you wanna show you know how to hold a two way convo by giving info and receiving info. That's just Conversation 101. In getting to know someone it's only natural in time they'll become invested in you and then want to know more about the person they've shared all their info with. Like Aquila said, reward investment. Don't sidestep it.
 

Big Daddy

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
707
@Aquila, HA

I agree with you guys. I'd do it once, maybe twice if they're chasing hard, but when the time to tell give her something comes and I have to tell that I'm an engineering it would be awkward as fuck because that's... just a major. I couldn't find the article/post where Chase or someone else very articulately explained that there's a difference and being a challenge and bantering with the girl and being a weirdo.

That said, I didn't feel that you were weird here, jdoc. Maybe a little overboard, but she lead you to her room, didn't she? So I don't think it played a major role in interest from her part.

This is an issue that I run into sometimes, girl goes out with me, accepts my advances, complies, I pull her back/try to kiss her and she either has a boyfriend and/or thought we were friends. I can't help but think I could have been more aggressive on the date, talk more about sex and how I love fucking girls subtly to set the tone from the very beginning every time it happens.

You're progressing fast dude, keep it up.
 

ray_zorse

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
1,982
I definitely think Aquila made good points here, and I may have just been disagreeing with HellAtlantic for the sake of it, so I apologize for that ;) I guess part of smooth mysteriousness is indeed knowing when to back down, but I think there's also a technique to backing down without it appearing to be a backdown, like she's asked several times what I do and I say... "ohh I'm a secret agent moonlighting as an engineering student"... just an example off the top of my head. Anyway, keep it light and playful.
Ray
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

jdoc

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Mar 10, 2015
Messages
182
Hey fellas,

Some more interesting points were made, thanks for your 2 cents. I've responded to you all collectively, regarding mysteriousness, and individually further down below. :)

Food for thought - this is the text message exchange afterwards:
Me: Was cool to hang out :)
Her: Yes it was. But I think it doesn't work out cause you have different intention... You're a cool guy but it won't work. I wish you all the best.

On mysteriousness:
My take on mysteriousness is that it should be done by not fully answering a question she asks about you, by answering in a different way in order to maintain her intrigue - but not overdone to the point that it seems contrived or strange.
HellAtlantic said:
Here's the thing about mysteriousness. You either have something interesting to keep her wondering about. I you're a fashion photographer, artist or culinary chef - ok, it's cool to make a game out of it. That's what my point is.
I agree with you here. On my behalf, I've got a few things going for me - I've got a somewhat unique job, and my hobbies are somewhat unconventional and exciting, so mysteriousness doesn't usually end anti-climatically.
Aquila said:
There are lots of things that cannot be conveyed through writings alone so I could have totally misinterpreted what was actually happening. I do feel like the whole process seemed a bit too "gamey" and lacked authenticity, and the "mysteriousness" was overplayed. The girl was investing in you (asking what you did several times) but you never rewarded her. Making her guess the first couple times are ok, but eventually you'll have to give her something to keep her investing in you.
The focus on my interaction was not to build mysteriousness for the sake of it. When I type up my reports, I include key interesting points which would have made up my vibe. The vast majority of what I talk about in conversation is nothing flashy - just deep diving and somewhat normal dialogue. I think through my writing I've made it seem that I was overplaying the mysteriousness, but in reality it was received with a few playful sentences from her saying that she didn't know much about me, to which I'd laugh it off, and redirect the focus of conversation back on her. It definitely was not the main theme of the overall interaction.

You make a good point with rewarding her investment in me. The details of the date are a little hazy, but I think I might've used touch and more open body language whenever she invested. Something I haven't been thinking about too much recently, but I think that rewarding investment is crucial. Thanks for the reminder!
Aquila said:
In Chase's article, he would reveal a little about himself, vaguely and slowly, to keep the girls intrigued. But in this case you didn't even gave her anything, and if she knows nothing about you, there's a lack of emotional connection between the two of you.
It would've been perhaps difficult to ascertain this from my writing, but I definitely didn't reveal nothing about myself - I related little things about myself in response to things she said about herself; it didn't come off as explicit rapport-forcing information about myself, but more so something I slipped in naturally throughout the conversation.

radeng said:
A connection needs to be formed and too much "'mystery" will make you unrelatable. You have to answer common questions just answer them in an uncommon way. Not an unrelatable way. You want to look mysterious but you shouldn't look like you're hiding something.
Honestly, I don't feel that I was unrelatable - in many instances, I was sure to relate to personal things she told me about herself. My overall vibe (I think) seemed authentic and warm. Good point about the hiding something part! I'll make sure to be mindful of that in the future, to avoid being too mysterious.

ray_zorse said:
I guess part of smooth mysteriousness is indeed knowing when to back down, but I think there's also a technique to backing down without it appearing to be a backdown, like she's asked several times what I do and I say... "ohh I'm a secret agent moonlighting as an engineering student"... just an example off the top of my head. Anyway, keep it light and playful.
Haha agreed! Good shit, Ray.

Again, from my writing it might've seemed that I was taking the mysteriousness card too far, so as to come off as "gamey" and weird - but I don't think that that was the case in reality - didn't really feel any sense of weird vibes, or anything jarring from it. Mostly my mysteriousness was received with playful banter, which would then recede after I focused on deep diving again. That being said, I'll be sure to be more mindful about mysteriousness in the future - I feel like it's something that's easy to take too far.

Thanks for the heads up, guys! :)

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radeng:
First of all, cheers man!! Getting way better real fast! No worries everything will fall in place for you eventually but your getting your grasp on a huge piece of the puzzle right now!
Thanks bro! I'm staying hopeful and I'm now more motivated than ever :)

Just be natural and plan good ways to word common questions because you need to answer them. you can almost make any answer sound good with a planned idea around it. Mostly I get into how te boring stuff about me feels and how I can relate that back to get them talking about their feelings about things.
Good point! I agree.

Anyway, sounds like this girl was a bit of an oddball. Most girls who bring you back to their room will be open to kissing you. She seems a bit weird on this. You could've reframed it better but this won't be the norm I don't believe.
This particular girl was the flamboyant, lively type. I think that she has a genuine zest for life and love for people, and I think that she might've thought that we were really hanging out with friends - seems plausible given her eccentricity.

Shit like this even very occasionally happens no matter how experienced you get. Just when you're more experienced u just brush it off and immediately forget it because you know you're process is good. When you're learning it may seem like you did something really wrong when you really didn't.
You're right! My boss told me the same thing - sometimes you might have the perfect pitch, and handle objections perfectly, but every now and then... no dice. I guess it's a case of getting more reference points and sticking to a good process. Thanks for the heads up :)

Big Daddy:
This is an issue that I run into sometimes, girl goes out with me, accepts my advances, complies, I pull her back/try to kiss her and she either has a boyfriend and/or thought we were friends. I can't help but think I could have been more aggressive on the date, talk more about sex and how I love fucking girls subtly to set the tone from the very beginning every time it happens.
I'm thinking that I might've been a little too friendly on the date and didn't display enough of a sexual vibe from the vibe. There was physical touch involved, but I think it'll be helpful and fun to experiment to really amping up the heat at some points. Something I'll try out!

Drexel:
I think you got cockteased. If she really had a boyfriend, she knew this from the very first moment, and perhaps you were her entertainment so she gave you flirty signals to keep it coming.
Haha, I have no idea. Maybe! What's your reasoning behind it? I'm thinking that my vibe was good at the bar, and pushed her buttons right, but as soon as I got to her apartment, my nervous and hesitation kicked in, which dulled the vibe a little which changed her energy. As soon as this happened, the goose was cooked. That's my theory, anyway.

which is why I generally do it early on to avoid wasted time. Lots of touching usually reveals the truth.
How early do you mean? For me, I usually touch the shoulder, belly, thigh (closer toward the knees) and hands... I think it works well... ish. What sort of touching do you usually use?

Good job on the 4 pulls though, keep it up. Practice will bring wisdom and improvement.
Thanks bro! Prior to the date, I was reading your book for some inspiration, seemed to help out. Do you have any pointers for pulling girls to their places? I tried to isolate myself in this instance by saying that I was gonna get us some water, to give her some alone time... but she ended up following me to the kitchen.
 
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