It should be okay to be needy and desperate

[Renegade]

In my 10+ years of seduction, I always felt like my neediness is somehow warranted. And now I know I was right.

I grew up in an abusive and neglecting household. No love, no attention. It left me empty and traumatised.

And now, after researching trauma and reading every major book about recovery, the answer seems to be the one I always felt to be true:

To feel complete, we need to be loved by other humans.

We need to actually have someone caring about us and having us as their priority.

And my therapist confirmed this: the best way to heal from relationship-based trauma is via new, healthy relationships.

This gave me massive motivation to actually find someone who will love me. In my 10 years of PUA, I never had a girlfriend.

But it leaves me with a huge question: if being validated by girls will literally save my life, how can I stop being needy around them? I literally need them!

I hate the whole idea of neediness. If we're hungry, we don't have to act like we're not so that we get some food. So why is it any different with love?

Love is a human right, just like water and food. We shouldn't have to play games just to get our basic needs met.

 

[Police dog]

In my 10 years of PUA, I never had a girlfriend

????????

Love is a human right

It is not

We shouldn't have to play games just to get our basic needs met.

So you think it should be like: you walk up to a girl and ask "s-s-sorry could you please... give me a blowjob and also hold my hand and tell me you love me because my parents never did?"

Well, if you dig deeper there are actually people who have some savior complex and they might wanna give you what you need but this whole shit is not healthy.

 

[Chase]

@Renegade,

Why have you never had a girlfriend? Unable to get one or unwilling to accept one?

I'm of several minds on the "I really want something; should I act like I'm different than I am?" question:

1. If the thing you are right now (emotionally needy / clingy / insecure) is something that sends most people running for the hills, and also is something that will change and improve with experience and healthy relationships, better to not have it on display, that way you are not driving women off, and then just heal gradually with girlfriends.
   
   
2. OTOH, as @Police dog says, there are always those savior complex people; in your case, the women who desperately want to fix a broken man. These girls are out there, and while you will repel non-savior women with needy behavior, the only way you're likely to find the savior complex women is with dysfunctional emotions.

A few reasons why I don't think #2 actually works very well:

• Needy people in general tend to drive off people who are not needy themselves, and instead attract OTHER needy people who are needy in some other way. e.g., psychic vampires, abusers, etc., where they end up in destructive codependent relationships. You might get a savior/caretaker; but you're just as likely to get an abuser.
  
  
• People with secure attachment styles (e.g., the healthy relationship women you want to date) tend to screen for other people with secure attachment styles and screen out anxious (i.e., you), avoidant, and disorganized attachers. But relationships with people with secure attachment styles are the best way for people with insecure attachment styles to move toward being secure.

Following the #2 strategy of "just act clingy and attract whoever's attracted to clingy dudes" seems like it's most likely going to get you Machiavellian abuser chicks or other chicks who are anxious like you and you both act clingy and skittish and nervous and possessive and jealous with each other.

Some years back we had a guy on this forum who was good at picking up but had a very anxious attachment style. He would get these girls back to his apartment then start opening up about all his traumas and worries before he even bedded them, and they would lose interest in going to bed with him and just leave. I told him to stop doing that, and he started closing all these girls he was picking up. But then he would end up in relationships, and some of these chicks were just straight up avoidants. Then he would be getting upset because they were playing with his heart strings, and I was like... dude, why are you dating these girls? But because that was his attachment style, he kept being attracted to that sort of thing and ending up in those relationships.

Anyway, just from advising guys with anxious attachment, it seems like "fake it till you make it" that you are confident, secure, etc., is the best strategy. Land a secure girlfriend, learn what a healthy relationship actually looks like, and let your emotions mature over time.

The alternative -- staying in anxious land, attracting the (equally dysfunctional) people who are attracted to anxious men, and having those kinds of relationships -- seems like it mostly just condemns you to remain anxiously attached.

Chase

 

[HumanWhoLearns]

It just boils down to human psychology. Non-needy people have more options and don't care as much so they are more confident. A person with social proof will always be more coveted than somebody without. Humans are a tribal and hierarchical species. If you show a woman that you're just another needy guy then there is no incentive for her to choose you. To illustrate, if you were a business owner and needed to hire someone (for something like marketing), would you go with the guy with no work history who is begging for a chance or would you go for somebody who has been doing it for 10 years and has a portfolio?

I don't think identifying yourself as 'needy' is doing you any favors either. Better to lose that mindset and get a healthier identity. Recently, I lost a job that I was pretty good at. My employer saw an opportunity to get rid of me over some stupid small thing, where I acted how most people would in that situation. So I lost out on easy money. But one thing I've realized in my life is that you can't worry too much about things you can't control (like other people's actions or opinions). I take care of myself and trust that if I take the right actions, things will work out in the end. Caring too much results in much misery.

Yes, people are happier & healthier with quality relationships, but humans can also be very resilient. Embrace your hero's journey and realize that you what you've been through will give you qualities that most people won't have.

 

[Renegade]

@Renegade,

Why have you never had a girlfriend? Unable to get one or unwilling to accept one?

I'm of several minds on the "I really want something; should I act like I'm different than I am?" question:

1. If the thing you are right now (emotionally needy / clingy / insecure) is something that sends most people running for the hills, and also is something that will change and improve with experience and healthy relationships, better to not have it on display, that way you are not driving women off, and then just heal gradually with girlfriends.
   
   
2. OTOH, as @Police dog says, there are always those savior complex people; in your case, the women who desperately want to fix a broken man. These girls are out there, and while you will repel non-savior women with needy behavior, the only way you're likely to find the savior complex women is with dysfunctional emotions.

A few reasons why I don't think #2 actually works very well:

• Needy people in general tend to drive off people who are not needy themselves, and instead attract OTHER needy people who are needy in some other way. e.g., psychic vampires, abusers, etc., where they end up in destructive codependent relationships. You might get a savior/caretaker; but you're just as likely to get an abuser.
  
  
• People with secure attachment styles (e.g., the healthy relationship women you want to date) tend to screen for other people with secure attachment styles and screen out anxious (i.e., you), avoidant, and disorganized attachers. But relationships with people with secure attachment styles are the best way for people with insecure attachment styles to move toward being secure.

Following the #2 strategy of "just act clingy and attract whoever's attracted to clingy dudes" seems like it's most likely going to get you Machiavellian abuser chicks or other chicks who are anxious like you and you both act clingy and skittish and nervous and possessive and jealous with each other.

Some years back we had a guy on this forum who was good at picking up but had a very anxious attachment style. He would get these girls back to his apartment then start opening up about all his traumas and worries before he even bedded them, and they would lose interest in going to bed with him and just leave. I told him to stop doing that, and he started closing all these girls he was picking up. But then he would end up in relationships, and some of these chicks were just straight up avoidants. Then he would be getting upset because they were playing with his heart strings, and I was like... dude, why are you dating these girls? But because that was his attachment style, he kept being attracted to that sort of thing and ending up in those relationships.

Anyway, just from advising guys with anxious attachment, it seems like "fake it till you make it" that you are confident, secure, etc., is the best strategy. Land a secure girlfriend, learn what a healthy relationship actually looks like, and let your emotions mature over time.

The alternative -- staying in anxious land, attracting the (equally dysfunctional) people who are attracted to anxious men, and having those kinds of relationships -- seems like it mostly just condemns you to remain anxiously attached.

Chase

Hey Chase,

thank you for the response. I think there's a big problem in your approach:

You're not realizing that I can't just simply become a healthy individual with unbroken emotions and a secure attachment style.

I already am broken. And any attempt to hide that is an attempt to hide my true self.

I want to be embraced the way I am. I want to be loved as the broken, needy, desperate me. Because apparently I deserve that.

I can't just not stay in the "Anxious land". Trauma and abuse changes your whole identity, even how your brain is physically wired. And I can't fake anything because that just creates more internal conflict.

The world as it is right now is very unfair towards abuse victims. Just because noone taught me how to value myself, I should now spend decades in therapy, or just accept that noone else will love me? No thanks, that's a terrible deal.

And since you're working with how the world is, and not how it should be, you're not doing much to solve the problem.

Everyone deserves secure love, and it's not something we should work for. Especially not those who went through hell already.

 

[Renegade]

????????


It is not


So you think it should be like: you walk up to a girl and ask "s-s-sorry could you please... give me a blowjob and also hold my hand and tell me you love me because my parents never did?"

Well, if you dig deeper there are actually people who have some savior complex and they might wanna give you what you need but this whole shit is not healthy.

You're acting as if it was my fault that I didn't get loved as a child. And that I developed some serious issues because of it.

Of course I know it's not healthy to be treated this way, and to become the result of that. But I went through it and now I am anxious and with no self worth. That's just how it is.

And as many therapsits said (and from my experience), I can't just heal myself on my own. I need healthy, loving relationships. That's the "medicine" I need. Will a person in huge need of pills get them? Of course. Well, I should get love when I need it. It shoudln't be conditional.

There's no point in trying to be something better that you are in order to get a girl. You deserve love just because you exist.

 

[Renegade]

It just boils down to human psychology. Non-needy people have more options and don't care as much so they are more confident. A person with social proof will always be more coveted than somebody without. Humans are a tribal and hierarchical species. If you show a woman that you're just another needy guy then there is no incentive for her to choose you. To illustrate, if you were a business owner and needed to hire someone (for something like marketing), would you go with the guy with no work history who is begging for a chance or would you go for somebody who has been doing it for 10 years and has a portfolio?

I don't think identifying yourself as 'needy' is doing you any favors either. Better to lose that mindset and get a healthier identity. Recently, I lost a job that I was pretty good at. My employer saw an opportunity to get rid of me over some stupid small thing, where I acted how most people would in that situation. So I lost out on easy money. But one thing I've realized in my life is that you can't worry too much about things you can't control (like other people's actions or opinions). I take care of myself and trust that if I take the right actions, things will work out in the end. Caring too much results in much misery.

Yes, people are happier & healthier with quality relationships, but humans can also be very resilient. Embrace your hero's journey and realize that you what you've been through will give you qualities that most people won't have.

Love is not a business transaction. That would be a pretty disgusting world.

Everyone deserves love, just because they exist. It's not a competition to get a partner.

Also, I'm not identifying myself as needy. I am, in comparison to most people, a needy person. And it's important to accept that yes, I do have a huge need for socialisation and love.

We have more control than you think. Maybe if you did something differently you wouldn't have lost your job. It's good to worry about these things, in order to not repeat the same mistakes we did before.

And lastly, "my hero" didn't obtain any good qualitites from going through trauma. That's just toxic positivity. Just like cancer teaches you nothing good, neither does abuse. I am broken from being a victim of trauma, and it's okay to say and accept that. And now I need help and love from others. That's okay too. It's why we have society. To help each other.

 

[gameboy]

The world is not fair. Nature is not fair. The bigger and stronger animals eat the weak ones. Is that fair? No. But it's how the world works.

There is no "right" to receive love from any other person. There may be a "right" to food and some other material things, depending which country I live in. But to love? No.

Finding someone who wants to love you takes work, and above all, courage. If you don't have that courage (and you're not so insanely attractive that the girls will throw themselves at you), then you're in a bad position. But courage is something you can work on.

Unless one goes the spiritual route and believes in infinite love from God, or the universe... but that still won't satisfy any desires for physical closeness.

 

[FAB DRONES]

I think they’re right to scold you, but your title got me thinking. Like needy and desperate is good. Think of it like this. If you’re cold approaching in a not needy way, they’re like why is he even approaching? So just own that neediness and they’ll see it as congruent. Oh he wants a girlfriend so bad that he’s willing to come up to me even tho he’s not that smooth. But again, they’re right in that it might work on just the wrong type of girls.

 

[Renegade]

The world is not fair. Nature is not fair. The bigger and stronger animals eat the weak ones. Is that fair? No. But it's how the world works.

There is no "right" to receive love from any other person. There may be a "right" to food and some other material things, depending which country I live in. But to love? No.

Finding someone who wants to love you takes work, and above all, courage. If you don't have that courage (and you're not so insanely attractive that the girls will throw themselves at you), then you're in a bad position. But courage is something you can work on.

Unless one goes the spiritual route and believes in infinite love from God, or the universe... but that still won't satisfy any desires for physical closeness.

Just because that's the way it is, doesn't mean it's how it should be.

The right to food also wasn't a thing in the past. But we made it a right so that less people would suffer.

It's the same with love, certain people really need it and it would help them immensely to have someone who would love them unconditionally.

We should make love a human right, it's no different than food or water. Just like there is no need for every individual to hunt down his food (thanks to society), there shouldn't be a need to "hunt down" your potential partner.

 

[orkie123]

And since you're working with how the world is, and not how it should be, you're not doing much to solve the problem.

The problem with the way you think the world should be, is that it will most likely never happen as a lot of human nature is involved that will never change.

Or if it does eventually happen, it will not be in your lifetime for sure. The best you are going to get in this lifetime with your current viewpoint is either what Chase said or an unfulfilling AI doll.

You have the right to feel like the world needs to change, but it will not get you closer to what you want.

 

[gameboy]

We should make love a human right, it's no different than food or water. Just like there is no need for every individual to hunt down his food (thanks to society), there shouldn't be a need to "hunt down" your potential partner.

Hmm. Got me thinking.

In some societies (I'm thinking of the Muslim world), people just get assigned a partner by their parents. Is that easier? Probably. But would I want to live that way? ...I don't know. I really don't think so. Though I guess if you're born into it, then it's probably just the way it is and it's okay too.

 

[Conquistador]

Hmm. Got me thinking.

In some societies (I'm thinking of the Muslim world), people just get assigned a partner by their parents. Is that easier? Probably. But would I want to live that way? ...I don't know. I really don't think so. Though I guess if you're born into it, then it's probably just the way it is and it's okay too.

Pretty much all societies, or at the very least agrarian Abrahamic ones, used to have all sorts of mechanisms to get people together, ranging from harvest dances to marry-your-lover imperatives.

The 20th century damaged this system severely for Westerners, but even today in a lot of more conservative houses of worship (not mine really, but I have friends who get this treatment) your older acquaintances will suggest girls to you unprompted or at least nudge you to consider looking.

Arranged marriage is probably not the best system, but it seems to work in most implementations (I think India may be having issues as it urbanizes, but they use jati instead of rough socioeconomic class) and in the big picture it’s fairly efficient at producing assortative pairings.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

And my therapist confirmed this: the best way to heal from relationship-based trauma is via new, healthy relationships.

This gave me massive motivation to actually find someone who will love me. In my 10 years of PUA, I never had a girlfriend.

But it leaves me with a huge question: if being validated by girls will literally save my life, how can I stop being needy around them? I literally need them!

I hate the whole idea of neediness. If we're hungry, we don't have to act like we're not so that we get some food. So why is it any different with love?

What if you think that being validated by girls is not the absolute way to save your life? Your therapist mentioned having new healthy relationships, I doubt he would ever say you have to get validated by girls or by anyone else, though.

And I do feel that it is not any different with love really. You can find love in romantic partners, in family, in friends even in people you interact day by day. I don't think that most people will just reject love itself, they will reject the things that you may want to get through love.

If you simply accept that with some people that you show love towards you will connect through it in various ways, the same way you connect with certain foods more while others create allergies and stomachache, then it won't be needed to get love somehow.

It is there, it is abundant for everyone and also for you. It doesn't need to be a girlfriend to give you some, as it doesn't need to be a catering service to satisfy your hunger. Pick the apple from the tree and enjoy your moments together, connect with a guy at the bar and appreciate the time you spend. And who knows, maybe next time you come across a pork fillet, or a woman that is sexually attracted to you. You will satisfy your hunger and love in different ways.

 

[Zoro]

I disagree. The answer to feeling complete is a spiritual journey and deeply personal.

Other people completing you is a modern idea devoid of wisdom. Yes you get some seratonin and it’s good for you. Well done doc.

But it doesn’t complete you.

As a man, I encourage you to meet your fears and the chaos within. Jung called it the anima, the inner divinity. It’s what’s you’re seeking, and getting familiar with it is a spiritual experience, in other words, it is a feeling of being connected and whole with yourself and the world.