Kissing Vs Sexual Frames: Horny Vs Arousal

Velasco

Tribal Elder
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Disclaimer: Imma need y’all to be nonjudgemental. moral guys: any questions wrt the girl in this post will be ignored. thanks

To Kiss or not to kiss.

This is one of those questions that have been discussed endlessly throughout the years. Whether or not to kiss a girl on the first date, or a complete stranger you just met. You’ve heard it all. The pro-don’t kiss her guys will tell you that it'll just trigger ASD/point of no return (if you make out with her on, date 1 without fucking her, she very likely won't come out for day2). She’ll get the kiss, and then fuck off not wanting to take things further. This has been my experience. And the pro-kiss her guys will tell you that it doesn’t matter because they still get the lay anyway. And that for them it doesn’t trigger ASD (sometimes it does, but not always). This has ALSO been my experience.

So whenever you find 2 very contradictory points of view (kissing triggers ASD/kissing does not trigger ASD) you need to explore underlying why. and get down to the diamond core principle.

For that I will need to give you guys some brief background about myself as to how I’ve arrived at my conclusion on this matter.

For a long time my view of seduction came from RSD’s philosophy (sidenote: I do find it funny that as I undo all the things I've learned from RSD, the better seducer I become) that It was like a great movie. Don’t spoil the ending of the movie for her. Don’t make her feel like she knows where all this is going to go or what’s going to happen next.

So having adopted this philosophy, I became very against kissing girls until after I brought them back to the sex location. Because kissing her prior to that, would lead to her “knowing what’s going to happen” next. Getting girls to kiss me, only to then have them not want to take this further, only strengthened this philosophy as confirmation bias. So I became a big fan of kiss denials (I still am to this day). And I would go on to write several field reports, on this powerful weapon I had stolen from this girl that used it on me, early in my journey. I soon discovered that doing this one too many times, does lose its charm (as does everything else in life). So the field, made me reduce it’s usage to only 1-2 times on girls. but I was still very against kissing. And then again, I would pull girls home without kissing. BUT. They most certainly 'felt’ like they knew where this is going to lead (some even pulled me). So it didn’t really matter that I didn’t kiss them. This lead me get rid of my 'no kissing until I reach the sex location' policy. At the end of the day, you kind of WANT girls to know where this is going. This is why you set sexual frames, so that there is no misunderstanding where this is going to lead. Zero LMR.

So at this point, my philosophy is now: set sexual frames, and kiss her if you feel like it. And this worked until I started to get resistance again. I set sexual frames, I can see that she’s “horny”....so why isn’t she going home with me?

The answer to this question finally “clicked” yesterday when I went to see my FB (can skip this part to the next paragraph)

My FB and I have been together for over a year now. And yesterday as I was about to fuck her like usual, she stopped me. and sat me down to tell me very firmly that she will not be having sex with me anymore. I had previous given this girl chlamydia, but now she had revealed to me that I had also given her a yeast infection. 3 times. and she was told that she had a very high chance of getting cancer because of it. So as much as she loves me, and the sex I give her. she can’t put herself at risk like this anymore. It was over between us. So I told her it was fine. We talked, then I suggested we go out to a restaurant together (for the first time lol. usually she'd get delivery for us). Here we talked again. Shared jokes This was our “goodbye” to sex meet. After she paid for the meal (she's very rich...I'm not so rich lol), we walked out hand in hand. my arm around her shoulder, her hand holding my fingers, and her other arm around my waist. Together acting like a newly in love couple. We walked until I reached my subway stop, and I was kissing her goodbye. But then I saw a homeless guy, near us. She glanced at him and he caught her eye. Then buried her head into my chest. For fear that he would follow her home, I told her I’d walk her over to the other block just in case so she felt safe. At the other block.. is where this time, I gave her a very passionate deep slow amazing kiss goodbye. The sort of kiss you give a girl, when you’re in bed together, right before you guys start taking each others clothes off. And its THIS kind of kiss that makes girls horny. Right there, it happened. She got horny. And got angry at me for activating it in her, while I laughed at her. "Damn it why did you do this to me"….she took me back to her apartment, and we had extremely passionate hard sex. No condom. After a couple hours of talking post sex, I managed to change her mind. And we are still fuckbuddies.

I share this because this experience made me realize what kissing does. Passionate kissing that is. It make girls horny. As obvious as that may sounds, it lead me to figure out how girls experience horny. And how she described it to me is that it's this throbbing motion, that has a mind of its own (it doesn't care what her logical mind thinking (which is "don't fuck this guy, he will just give you another infection") says to her, 'I need something inside of me RIGHT NOW. i went online just so that I can have other reference points, to make sure that all girls experience “horny” the same way and not just this one. and yes, they more or less talk about the same feeling. this achy, throbbing desire of needing something in them to grip on and how its uncomfortable that they can’t thinking of anything else until it passes or they get laid.

If you do not have good social frame with the girl you make out with it will trigger FSC (Female State Control) when she experiences herself get horny from your kiss. and she'll run away from you. so knowing this, you want to trigger horny ONLY after you’ve established a social frame.

what social frame entails:
  • Build rapport (she feels like you guys are similar in views/tastes + she’s invested a lot of herself)
  • Social proof (not necessary if the thinks your hot)
  • Have her friends like and accept you (so they won't cockblock when they see her reach that horny state)
  • Make her laugh
  • Decent clothes and grooming
  • A good vibe
  • Excellent posture
  • Good social skills
https://www.girlschase.com/content/female-state-control-fsc-social-frame-and-comfort

Take care of the prerequisites (which I have with my fuckbuddy), it will not trigger FSC when she gets horny from your passionate kiss.

So this answered the kissing part of the equation for me. WHEN and WHY to do it. but I was still puzzled about why setting a sexual frame did not cause her to experience the same level of horniness as kissing does (or more precisely: why wasn’t it as consistent as kissing’s ability to trigger horniness)

So I decided to look that up: is there a fundamental difference between a girl being aroused and a girl being horny?

which lead me to this comment:

"I've always thought that being "horny" and being "aroused" were two completely different things, and I never even thought anyone considered them synonyms until I saw this post. Whenever somebody tells me that they feel "horny," they always mean that they really want to have sex at that moment. I've heard this stated by both men and women, and I've never heard them mean it any other way. I have, personally, been aroused in the past--many times actually--and it was nothing more than a physical reaction that my body had that was entirely outside of my control. Not once during any of these times did I ever feel a desire to have sex, so I have never been "horny" by the definition that I have heard it used in, but I have been aroused".

https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/51889-is-there-a-difference-between-being-aroused-and-horny/?tab=comments#comment-1579430

Is it possible that a girl can be aroused by what your saying to her, but still not want to fuck you despite having a good social frame? Idk, but its happened often enough for me, that I consider it a strong possibility.

So from this, what I’ve concluded is the best way to go about getting laid is:

Social frame (make her feel allowed to have sex with you) -> Sexual frame (make her want to kiss you) -> Deep passionate kiss (to trigger “I want to fuck right now”) -> Pull.
 

Witcher

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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196
Geat post!

I saw the same idea in Maniac_High Pick-Up Guide, one of the oldest PUAs and oldest seduction guides from the community(1999). So this may be first principle we are finding here. As you will see in the quote below and in his fields reports, like you he consides it to be a key concept to get the lay I also got my first lay that way.

C)Ground work...get her ready to fuck.
-Maniac has found that GROUNDWORK is real important (ie. kissing/feeling up
the chick before getting her to your place). If you don't do this, she often
freezes up and freaks out when she gets to your place. Getting to your place
is a REWARD for her letting you kiss her and feel her up.
-After, go for a short walk. When you get outside, offer her your arm a-la
french style, to escort the lady ( more physical action..she gets to feel
your touch more!).
If you did the above talking right in the restaurant, she will be comfortable
with this and take your arm. If she doesn't, then you got a wierdo, or a
paranoid, and you wont get far with her..make it an early night and get rid
of her.
-Try to take her hand (maybe stop at a window of a shop or something and
look at something with her, then when you continue, take her hand). Rub her
hand a bit as you walk too. See if she reciprocates (if she does, it is kiss
time)..
-Go to a safe, but not crowded area, (park/bench on the street), and look at
her eyes, still holding her hand(s), and just say "do you want to kiss me".
Anything but a clear direct NO you say, and move in and kiss her..
-If that doesn't look like it will work, say "okay, lets see", and then
kiss her. Make it short, and end the kiss first, then say "wow, that was
very good, one more..", and go in for more. First soft on the lips, then
later, tongue action, if she starts to open her mouth as you kiss.
-If this is going well, and you can touch her here and there as kissing is
happening, then you want to get her back ASAP [Step "E"].
-If not, goto Step "D" below.
Sources: http://www.pickupguide.com/puguide.htm - http://www.pickupguide.com/

I would also have a question for you. Would you also go for the Kiss/makeout if for any reason you don't plan to fuck the girl on that first date?
 

Velasco

Tribal Elder
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Thanks for the props, @Witcher

Would you also go for the Kiss/makeout if for any reason you don't plan to fuck the girl on that first date?
I've only ever gone for Same Night Lays (and probably always will...lol). So I can't answer your question.
 

cruiser

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I see you kept your cool, stayed true to the sexy man frame and did it unintentionally. You reek of sexual desire boss
 

Fuck This

Cro-Magnon Man
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I found that a woman has to feel comfortable and not feel that she is judged poorly for being a sexual woman.

Just before she texted me her room number, one SNL said "I don't want you to think I am that type of girl"

to which I simply responded:

"Well I am that type of man"

5 seconds later "room 832"
 

Witcher

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
196
I found that a woman has to feel comfortable and not feel that she is judged poorly for being a sexual woman.

Just before she texted me her room number, one SNL said "I don't want you to think I am that type of girl"

to which I simply responded:

"Well I am that type of man"

5 seconds later "room 832"
Now I have a good answer to this classical sentence girls throws Thanx! However, I am still on the lookout for a deliberate way to show girls that I am non-judgemental. Until now I try to find a way to do it during the conversation but sometimes there is no opportunity on which I can ride. Since I live in a semi-conservative country with girls having high ASD, actively framing oneself as discreet and non-judgmental is essential if I want to get the lay otherwise the girl will play full madonna! So any easy gambit that can be pulled out in any date situation?

Thanks for the props, @Witcher

I've only ever gone for Same Night Lays (and probably always will...lol). So I can't answer your question.
One day that will be my answer to a newbie too!
Actually I went deeper into Maniac Guide and the now-defunct TonyLay Guide. It seems that making the girl horny first thought a make out then pulling her home was a key discovery the PUA of that time made which made fast sex. The central argument is that otherwise, the girl will freak out when you suddenly start to escalate at home. One the other hand if you make out and go home both of you know what to expect and there will be less resistance when fully isolated. It also according to these old guides, make the sex easier on the second date since that if she comes she know what to expect and came anyways.

It's very strange to me to see how now we almost have the opposite advice to keep kissing/makeout until full isolation. It's also one of my biggest confusion around game!

Comments and suggestions?
 

Velasco

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Until now I try to find a way to do it during the conversation but sometimes there is no opportunity on which I can ride. Since I live in a semi-conservative country with girls having high ASD, actively framing oneself as discreet and non-judgmental is essential if I want to get the lay otherwise the girl will play full madonna! So any easy gambit that can be pulled out in any date situation?
You can steal mine or use it as inspiration to create your own

Nonjudgemental/discrete is an SNL trait. I use this one AFTER I've already been talking about a shit ton of sexual shit.


I love how I can just talk with you about this stuff so freely and you don’t get uncomfortable or anything (commitment bias). like the other day I was sitting outside at a restaurant talking to these girls about sex fantasies (painting a picture). and they were like all really into it. talking about dick sizes, what they like don’t like. then this random guy just started walking near us to enter the restaurant and then they all got like really quiet. because they didn’t feel comfortable again. it was interesting to see. girls aren’t really allowed to talk about this shit just out in the public so open cause they’ll get judged. and it kinda makes me feel bad for you guys that you have to live a sort of double life. be the fake good girls around certain people and then be your real self (painting bad girl as her true self) around other people. you can never really be yourself 100% of the time.

let her talk...

but at the same time i think its also necessary. because like if every guy knew how much girls loved sex and talking about sex then i think it would create massive chaos. we would have like every guy trying to get sex with girls right away not being smooth at all and then getting angry at chicks for not giving them sex right away. so girls have to kind of lie and be like “I’m not that kinda girl” shit. just to protect themselves from those dangerous loser guys (she can’t use the “i’m not that kinda girl” excuse to me because I expressed that I’m aware of the double standards) thats why i think girls really appreciate guys that are like low key about this shit.
 

Velasco

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The central argument is that otherwise, the girl will freak out when you suddenly start to escalate at home. One the other hand if you make out and go home both of you know what to expect and there will be less resistance when fully isolated.
Its not kissing. Its what kissing DOES to her which is key. You can make a girl horny without kissing her via sexual frames, and the girl won't freak out when you start escalating at home. like in this infield:


Kissing just helps seal the deal for a lack of a better word. But you can do without it.
 
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