Looking for feedback on a #-close attempt today — is it me or MN?

[archimedes]

I’ve got a theory that Minnesota is uniquely toxic when it comes to male- female dynamics, and if that’s true, most dating advice needs a major rewrite for this environment.

So today, I was leaving my Monday counselor session — I go mostly because insurance covers it, it breaks up the workday, and it's a place to talk about neurodivergent crap or whatever. It’s useful, but not profound. I get the sense that women romanticize therapy — like it’s magical or sacred. For me, it’s just a conversation with a neutral party.

As I was heading out, I saw the same woman, Kelly let’s call her sitting where she usually is. We’d first met a few weeks ago and chatted more extensively last week — turns out she’s in a band, and she has a show coming up. The vibes with her have always felt good vibes as well as with some possible romantic possibility.

So today I did what I’ve seen online on Instagram and so on— casually held out my phone with the number screen open as I passed, no pressure, just confident. Her reaction? Like I’d run over her cat. She gave me this shocked, borderline disgusted look and said, “I’m in therapy,” like I’d broken some sacred rule.

I wasn’t hovering. I wasn’t being intense, one of my feet was literally practically out the door, but once again, I got that "you're evil or clueless" reaction I’ve come to expect. And this is just one example — it happens all the time. I’ll build rapport with a girl over weeks, feel a strong vibe, and when it's cresting will go for an ask... and boom, she goes cold. Dead-face. Like I did something wrong just by expressing interest or bridge venues. I know I might not be doing it the chase amante perfect way but i figure something is better than nothing, natural is better than rehearsed but it's always the same result.

This doesn’t feel normal. In fact it feels deeply undermining and deflating and confusing - maybe not the first time but the 50th.

My question is: Is this universal, or is this Minnesota? Because if it's MN, then the standard playbook doesn’t apply here.

It honestly seems like women here assume men have no sexuality — and if we do, it should be caged and hidden. The fact that my interest registers as shocking or offensive is nuts. I’m not creepy — I’m clear, at least with my body language, but their reactions make me feel like some kind of deviant. It’s like people here are emotionally stuck at age 10, just older bodies walking around on SSRIs and vague shame.

I don’t need the dopamine from being right — I want the dopamine of moving towards something. I want progress, intimacy, connection but I don’t see a path here. I’m starting to plan relocation — tough when you own property, and i have two more under contract lol, but still, a good problem to have. California, Montreal, Europe, Reykjavik, Vilnius, Scotland. I should check out Austin. Chatanooga. I don't know, just ideas. This is why I have to become privately wealthy.

Thank you thank you - you sanity bringers. Sanity is the basis for sovereignty

 

[Spike]

We’d first met a few weeks ago and chatted more extensively last week — turns out she’s in a band, and she has a show coming up. The vibes with her have always felt good vibes as well as with some possible romantic possibility.

So today I did what I’ve seen online on Instagram and so on— casually held out my phone with the number screen open as I passed, no pressure, just confident. Her reaction? Like I’d run over her cat.

Did before, “casually holding your phone in front of her face”, you prerequisite it with something like, “wow no way that’s awesome (to whatever she said). Hey I have to get going but I was wondering if you wanted to hangout sometime?” get her reaction. Then if positive, “cool. what’s your #/ig/snap”?

Or did you just hold your phone in front of her face with the number screen open as you passed her?

Serious question. Sometimes common sense isn’t common sense

 

[Chase]

@archimedes,

Don't do neo-direct. Women loathe it and it doesn't work.

What Is a "Bad" Approach (Neo-Direct)?

A few years back @Teevster (Alek Rolstad) and I came out against a disturbing low- / no-game trend we have been seeing in a lot of newer guys approaching girls. The trend revolves around making generic looks-based direct opener compliments to girls, with basically no push-pull or flirtation...

www.skilledseducer.com

This doesn’t feel normal. In fact it feels deeply undermining and deflating and confusing - maybe not the first time but the 50th.

My question is: Is this universal, or is this Minnesota? Because if it's MN, then the standard playbook doesn’t apply here.

Asking women out with neo-direct is like fishing by throwing bowling balls in the water trying to hit the fish or like trying to build a rocket ship by strapping a chair on top of an oil can and lighting the oil can on fire.

The chance it works is not zero, but it is way, way, WAY lower than actually doing things remotely correctly.

Read this:

How to Get a Phone Number from a Girl Every Time You Ask

One of the most glaring things missing from the content available on the blog here has been an authoritative article on how to get a phone number from a girl. I put up "Natural Number Swapping" sometime back, and that covers the basics; Ricardus has covered phone numbers somewhat in a couple of...

www.girlschase.com

You must make a little conversation and run a little GAME!

Chase

 

[JT Sunshine]

As someone who’s spent a lot of time in the midwest (and MN specifically), it can vary widely by location and what social sub-group she identifies with. Overall it’s kinda meh, but there are some super-hotties hiding in the north loop and western burbs. There are definitely girls who fall into what I call “caribou culture” (if you know, you know) that at worst have a victim mentality and seem to think all men are chauvinistic, and at best are highly skeptical of men. But that’s a *small* minority. I do find in the cold state that the “summer sluts” turn to “winter wives” and become far less promiscuous towards strangers during colder months, often wanting relationships over casual flings. But there are plenty of women who are very open sexually. It’s very liberal there, so keep that in mind. I don’t think that makes it better or worse, just something to be aware of when interacting with people.

I’m assuming you live in Minneapolis or a metro suburb… if not I’ve found Saint Cloud is fun but limited in things to do, Rochester sucks unless you like nurses. I’ve found Minneapolis to be better than Chicago when it comes to women, not sure why. Wouldn’t suggest moving there. I do love Chicago… but not for the girls - although Skokie had some hotties at an arcade bar I went to one night, and Navy Pier isn’t bad for daytime tourists. Still, I’ve found Denver girls are WAY open minded than Minnesota girls, however… the cost of living is higher in Denver. But I absolutely love it. If you don’t want to move somewhere far away, want a similar climate (and have mountains), with women who I find are more sexually open, try Denver. At least take a vacation and see if you like it. Still, nothing hits like coastal SW Florida. Minnesota nice is a joke compared to Florida… at least in my experience.

@Spike makes a good point too. Find a reason to ask for the number first (if you didn’t). I have used this many times with great success: figure out something they like, for example Asian food, then go “omg have you ever been to x restaurant?” If they say yes, say “I’ve never been, let’s go sometime!” if they say no, say “omg it’s so good, let’s go some time!” They will be like “yeah!” and *then* you hand them the phone. No need to ever go to the restaurant either, but it’s a smooth and easy segue into getting the number with minimal chance of rejection.

Feel free to PM me if you want any specific info on MN as I know the cities very well

 

[average_daygamer]

@archimedes,

Don't do neo-direct. Women loathe it and it doesn't work.

What Is a "Bad" Approach (Neo-Direct)?

A few years back @Teevster (Alek Rolstad) and I came out against a disturbing low- / no-game trend we have been seeing in a lot of newer guys approaching girls. The trend revolves around making generic looks-based direct opener compliments to girls, with basically no push-pull or flirtation...

www.skilledseducer.com

Asking women out with neo-direct is like fishing by throwing bowling balls in the water trying to hit the fish or like trying to build a rocket ship by strapping a chair on top of an oil can and lighting the oil can on fire.

The chance it works is not zero, but it is way, way, WAY lower than actually doing things remotely correctly.

Read this:

How to Get a Phone Number from a Girl Every Time You Ask

One of the most glaring things missing from the content available on the blog here has been an authoritative article on how to get a phone number from a girl. I put up "Natural Number Swapping" sometime back, and that covers the basics; Ricardus has covered phone numbers somewhat in a couple of...

www.girlschase.com

You must make a little conversation and run a little GAME!

Chase

May I ask Chase, what is the difference between neo direct and traditional direct?

 

[archimedes]

As someone who’s spent a lot of time in the midwest (and MN specifically), it can vary widely by location and what social sub-group she identifies with. Overall it’s kinda meh, but there are some super-hotties hiding in the north loop and western burbs. There are definitely girls who fall into what I call “caribou culture” (if you know, you know) that at worst have a victim mentality and seem to think all men are chauvinistic, and at best are highly skeptical of men. But that’s a *small* minority. I do find in the cold state that the “summer sluts” turn to “winter wives” and become far less promiscuous towards strangers during colder months, often wanting relationships over casual flings. But there are plenty of women who are very open sexually. It’s very liberal there, so keep that in mind. I don’t think that makes it better or worse, just something to be aware of when interacting with people.

I’m assuming you live in Minneapolis or a metro suburb… if not I’ve found Saint Cloud is fun but limited in things to do, Rochester sucks unless you like nurses. I’ve found Minneapolis to be better than Chicago when it comes to women, not sure why. Wouldn’t suggest moving there. I do love Chicago… but not for the girls - although Skokie had some hotties at an arcade bar I went to one night, and Navy Pier isn’t bad for daytime tourists. Still, I’ve found Denver girls are WAY open minded than Minnesota girls, however… the cost of living is higher in Denver. But I absolutely love it. If you don’t want to move somewhere far away, want a similar climate (and have mountains), with women who I find are more sexually open, try Denver. At least take a vacation and see if you like it. Still, nothing hits like coastal SW Florida. Minnesota nice is a joke compared to Florida… at least in my experience.

@Spike makes a good point too. Find a reason to ask for the number first (if you didn’t). I have used this many times with great success: figure out something they like, for example Asian food, then go “omg have you ever been to x restaurant?” If they say yes, say “I’ve never been, let’s go sometime!” if they say no, say “omg it’s so good, let’s go some time!” They will be like “yeah!” and *then* you hand them the phone. No need to ever go to the restaurant either, but it’s a smooth and easy segue into getting the number with minimal chance of rejection.

Feel free to PM me if you want any specific info on MN as I know the cities very well

thanks- i don't even need love and sex--------- i just want authenticity, to vibe or at least keep the vibe we have going- and not go flat. people just go flat if you go out of their comfort zone- and their comfort zone is very small. Maybe it's a mn thing, maybe it's a 2025 thing maybe it's whatever but that's all I want. i'm not asking for sex and love. yes i want that but .. put it this way i've been rejected before by a few girls who did it in such a way that made me feel better than ever. maybe their faces lit up but they said they have a boyfriend, and they were down to earth. I don't feel entitled to anything on the material front. I'm a ranter, anyway thanks for your take.

 

[archimedes]

@archimedes,

Don't do neo-direct. Women loathe it and it doesn't work.

What Is a "Bad" Approach (Neo-Direct)?

A few years back @Teevster (Alek Rolstad) and I came out against a disturbing low- / no-game trend we have been seeing in a lot of newer guys approaching girls. The trend revolves around making generic looks-based direct opener compliments to girls, with basically no push-pull or flirtation...

www.skilledseducer.com

Asking women out with neo-direct is like fishing by throwing bowling balls in the water trying to hit the fish or like trying to build a rocket ship by strapping a chair on top of an oil can and lighting the oil can on fire.

The chance it works is not zero, but it is way, way, WAY lower than actually doing things remotely correctly.

Read this:

How to Get a Phone Number from a Girl Every Time You Ask

One of the most glaring things missing from the content available on the blog here has been an authoritative article on how to get a phone number from a girl. I put up "Natural Number Swapping" sometime back, and that covers the basics; Ricardus has covered phone numbers somewhat in a couple of...

www.girlschase.com

You must make a little conversation and run a little GAME!

Chase

Will do captain- converse and run game. i don't expect them to be so cold though, and not sure i can do that if time is short. i have to find environments where game is happening-- and i don't know these places are. I don't get enough volume bc i don't know where to go, where it's happening lol!

per your article:

1. Generic looks-based compliment opener ("Excuse me but you're really beautiful/cute")
   1. I never did looks based in decades. I rarely even come remotely close to looks based complimenting, unless i feel i can do it in a special way that will land at the right time
2. Flat, uninspired delivery on the opener/approach (i.e., no energy, enthusiasm, vitality, excitement)
   1. well like i said the second time we had a decent 4 minute convo. this time i just went straight for it- wordlessly, like it was its own thing. i thought having a convo first would make it more lame than just being implicitly confident or whatever and i still kind of think that. Everyone in minesota opens a conversation with "how are you? I'm good how are you? I'm good"- and then they start their real conversation. I deeply desire to be different
3. Goes for the phone number grab in under a minute ("Can I get your number?")
   1. yeah this time but we had a tiny little history. i didn't want to stall out or come out like a friend- it was like an implicit statement of intent they call it- and i didn't want to be her dancing monkey if she had no interest- a thing i've been too much. Everything is such a fine line. it's always like too this or too that and also it feels like they make my offer a moral issue. If anything the man who is a pussy and too scared to talk is immoral or the woman who doesn't meet a person half way ever or doesn't have better manners. I've been rejected by classy women- whose rejection actually felt good- they glowed up as told me they had a bf or whatever, but those types are rare. It's just kind of that everything seems like a contradiction- can't be too much this too much that and i don't feel i did most of the faults in your post, not so blatantly. That makes me wonder if the same ideas that work in St Petersburgh Russia or Montreal or even Chicago or even Wisconsin don't work in Minneapolis.

Oh and I thought this way would be less awkward- not having a dating flirting conversation in the middle of the counselling waiting room lol. This is probably the double empathy problem in full force but i thought i was doing the wisest, most discrete and also pretty smooth confident thing.

They ain't worth my seed, they can get with some lesser man, get f'd by him, keep having to go to therapy. i could probably tantrically open their soul and give them bliss they could never imagine and give them gifts of the mind and make them feel safe and deep seen as fuck

 

[Chase]

@archimedes,

Will do captain- converse and run game. i don't expect them to be so cold though, and not sure i can do that if time is short.

That is the "art" of short approaches. How do you make a strong enough impression to reach a high point in a minute or two where she'll be happy to agree to a date?

i have to find environments where game is happening-- and i don't know these places are. I don't get enough volume bc i don't know where to go, where it's happening lol!

Check these out:

How to Start Picking Up Girls (Beginner Guide)

Who do you have to be to pick up girls? Well, you have to be YOU! But you do need to do things right. Follow these steps to start picking up girls today. Contents 1. What to Understand First 2. How Girls See You Your Look Your Behavior 3. Where to Pick Girls Up At Social Circle Spots Night Game...

www.girlschase.com

How to Meet Girls via Day Game (Beginner Guide)

Day game is the approach a man uses to meet new women during the daytime. This beginner guide tells you all you need to know to start day gaming girls. Contents 1. What Is Day Game? What Is NOT Day Game? 2. Day Game Hurdles Approach Anxiety Spam Approaching Ejecting Too Soon 3. How to Do Day...

www.girlschase.com

I have extensive lists of "places to go" in each of them.

This section of the website is also worth a perusal:

Where to Find Women | Girls Chase

www.girlschase.com

per your article:

1. Generic looks-based compliment opener ("Excuse me but you're really beautiful/cute")
   1. I never did looks based in decades. I rarely even come remotely close to looks based complimenting, unless i feel i can do it in a special way that will land at the right time
2. Flat, uninspired delivery on the opener/approach (i.e., no energy, enthusiasm, vitality, excitement)
   1. well like i said the second time we had a decent 4 minute convo. this time i just went straight for it- wordlessly, like it was its own thing. i thought having a convo first would make it more lame than just being implicitly confident or whatever and i still kind of think that. Everyone in minesota opens a conversation with "how are you? I'm good how are you? I'm good"- and then they start their real conversation. I deeply desire to be different
3. Goes for the phone number grab in under a minute ("Can I get your number?")
   1. yeah this time but we had a tiny little history. i didn't want to stall out or come out like a friend- it was like an implicit statement of intent they call it- and i didn't want to be her dancing monkey if she had no interest- a thing i've been too much. Everything is such a fine line. it's always like too this or too that and also it feels like they make my offer a moral issue. If anything the man who is a pussy and too scared to talk is immoral or the woman who doesn't meet a person half way ever or doesn't have better manners. I've been rejected by classy women- whose rejection actually felt good- they glowed up as told me they had a bf or whatever, but those types are rare. It's just kind of that everything seems like a contradiction- can't be too much this too much that and i don't feel i did most of the faults in your post, not so blatantly. That makes me wonder if the same ideas that work in St Petersburgh Russia or Montreal or even Chicago or even Wisconsin don't work in Minneapolis.

Oh and I thought this way would be less awkward- not having a dating flirting conversation in the middle of the counselling waiting room lol. This is probably the double empathy problem in full force but i thought i was doing the wisest, most discrete and also pretty smooth confident thing.

Re: the compliment -- good!

Re: the "thought just going for it with the phone out would be more confident" -- these things happen. You try something, you think, "Wow, she's REALLY going to think I'm ballsy NOW!" then she just reacts like you're an oafish boor and you go, "Oh. Right. Gotta also have that smoothness and calibration in there. My mistake."

Wordless interactions can work very well, but they're contingent on all the nonverbal communication being in place.

For instance, this likely would have worked:

1. You step out into the waiting room, and catching her glancing at you, then glancing away shyly and smiling to herself
2. You stare at her with a confident smile until she looks back, at which point you slowly broaden your smile
3. She holds eye contact with you and broadens her smile in turn
4. You give her a wink, and she giggles and gives a big smile
5. You take out your phone, flash your eyebrows at her, and point at it, as if to say, "Wanna trade contacts?"
6. She smiles and nods her head in agreement
7. You nod confidently and knowingly, then approach her and hand the phone to her
8. As you're leaving you give her another wink and a little wave on the exit. She giggles again

That works, because you create a high point (her giggling and smiling at your wink) and also get her to agree to the contact exchange.

It all hinges on her emotions in the moment -- what she is feeling with you.

The way things really played out, it's very likely she was seated in the waiting room, thinking about her problems, being annoyed at having to wait, or who knows what other emotional headspace, then a guy she'd had a short but quite probably anything-but-top-of-mind conversation with previously came out and held his phone out to her. To her it comes across as insensitive, tone-deaf, and demanding -- in no way triggering "good feelings", high points, or any kind of desire to do anything with that man.

Courtship is an emotional dance. You can skip the words sometimes, but the COMMUNICATION must still be there (simply done nonverbally, instead of verbally)! Otherwise, the emotions will not arise!

They ain't worth my seed, they can get with some lesser man, get f'd by him, keep having to go to therapy. i could probably tantrically open their soul and give them bliss they could never imagine and give them gifts of the mind and make them feel safe and deep seen as fuck

This is a good core mentality to have. It shows high self-esteem / a high impression of the self.

HOWEVER, it must also always be coupled with the awareness that all these wonderful things you are capable of doing for women are totally invisible to them until they know you well, and that being able to convey even a tenth of that rapidly and up front to hook a woman in takes art and skill.

Ultimately, the fully mature version of this mentality is a bit of sadness for the girl's sake when she rejects you, that sounds something like this, "Ah, that is too bad. I wasn't able to break through to her how amazing of an experience she'd have had with me. This is too sad for her. I must try a little better to communicate this with future girls so not as many fetching women have to miss out."

Keeps you action-oriented and problem-solving without sacrificing that "I am the prize" mentality that is so important!

Chase

 

[archimedes]

[Edited]

Thanks for responding.

I get carried away in my responding sometimes. I'm a deep thinker. ultimately i want to think through the existentiali structures and blockers, so that i can flow and be good. It results in many words. TOO MANY WORDS. Ironically around women i like to be caveman- silent seducer with few words, with body language and erotic core.

Deleting most of my reply. I have always been pretty bad at forum participation. IRL people think im a cool guy

I read/scanned the linked articles chase. there's a lot of good stuff in there. Each time i read i can take away more new things but bottom line- one has to solve the bottlenecks to get real results. Can't just upgrade the tires if a piston is misfiring.

Realistically these bottlenecks are
1. I think i need more volume of meeting women- and in places where my signal is higher- where there is no rush, where there is durable community and where there is a high trust environment- but
2. I ALSO NEED TO GIVE WOMEN EMOTION- to prod them or evoke emotion even if it is not seductive. I used to think banter was a playful dog like tug of war. Now i see it more like you can sting them like a hornet if it gives them emotion. but i'm not the greatest at that, yet




@archimedes,

That is the "art" of short approaches. How do you make a strong enough impression to reach a high point in a minute or two where she'll be happy to agree to a date?



Check these out:

How to Start Picking Up Girls (Beginner Guide)

Who do you have to be to pick up girls? Well, you have to be YOU! But you do need to do things right. Follow these steps to start picking up girls today. Contents 1. What to Understand First 2. How Girls See You Your Look Your Behavior 3. Where to Pick Girls Up At Social Circle Spots Night Game...

www.girlschase.com

Funny. the periphery is what resonates with my experience. Crazy how deterministic and exact things are.

The ‘rough start’ beginner will come into his own eventually – and once he does, he’ll have learned lessons and built a skill set around picking up girls that will never truly leave him.

When lol? Fuck man. I've made 20 goes at this. i've had moments i think i upgraded my self image and confidence but fuck never winning real flow.

How to Meet Girls via Day Game (Beginner Guide)

Day game is the approach a man uses to meet new women during the daytime. This beginner guide tells you all you need to know to start day gaming girls. Contents 1. What Is Day Game? What Is NOT Day Game? 2. Day Game Hurdles Approach Anxiety Spam Approaching Ejecting Too Soon 3. How to Do Day...

www.girlschase.com

1. Opener -> contact grab: going up to a woman and opening her then immediately going for the contact grab is (usually) not day game. For instance, “Hey, I saw you, and this is crazy, but you’re really cute. Can I get your Instagram?” is not day game.

I know this is my biggest risk

1. Courtship is an emotional dance. You can skip the words sometimes, but the COMMUNICATION must still be there (simply done nonverbally, instead of verbally)! Otherwise, the emotions will not arise!

I know. I just didn't know i sucked at it so bad. I mean very badly judging by objective results/numbers.

This is a good core mentality to have. It shows high self-esteem / a high impression of the self.

I see myself as having high self esteem but for whatever reason i am not signalling it. I

HOWEVER, it must also always be coupled with the awareness that all these wonderful things you are capable of doing for women are totally invisible to them until they know you well, and that being able to convey even a tenth of that rapidly and up front to hook a woman in takes art and skill.

yeah.


Lastly- irony and justification.

My place, my state is so based on irony. i heard a group of people chatting- 3 women 2 men. they represented the best of this type for their age- educated, professional class, highly respectible and articulate but i noticed they only laugh at contradictions and hypocrisy or non-ironic people and things. It was very subtle. they spoke in a low voice, all serious. it was very subtle, ChatGPT primed me to grasp this. Dare to be unironic, put yourself out there.

Justification- why does everything have to be justified? That's how it feels. Why can't i just have desire? Everything seems sanded down, locked up. I want to disrupt, demand, show desire. I think nice guys flatten women. women are not made to be flat. men like things smooth- their lives smooth but women resent it, maybe, so be demanding. Maybe grade school was where we started to lose this- i don't know, and i'm high iq so maybe i was sucked in to that world. Greek helps me a lot- they were soldiers and philosophers. Why do I have to justify what i am about but loud blaring speakers don't have to justify? I'm not moralizing but why the double standard or why don't i feel free? Why do i feel bottled? Why don't i feel expansive- capable of breaking things up? Justify getting a girl naked or wanting a girl naked, and using emotions to get her there? This world is not just emotionally judgmental. it has entire systems designed to enforce its moral sensibilities. I was always sensitive to cancel culture, decades ago, before that term arose. I want to pick my battles. the point is not to be angry-- but to expand one's territory through key battles and then live well. i am not living well cause i don't have naked ones. This is a wild world. Am I even moving forward?