Low vs High Body Count - What's Ideal? cont.

[Spike]

so are high body count MEN high or low value?

Irrelevant to this discussion

 

[Teevster]

Irrelevant to this discussion

Isnt it unfair how women get slutshamed, devalued for acting in accordance with their nature, their sexuality, whereas we men can do whatever, without judgement?

To be continued...

 

[TomInHo]

I find the body count discussion hilarious

Here we are a bunch of guys that make it a hobby to add +1 to girls body counts with no intention of ever marrying them

Then later start arguing about if low body counts are more valuable... lol

I guess that's why guys say "My wife is my better half" because maybe the low body count obsessed guys really are looking for a woman that's better than them

Looking to find their "Better Half"

 

[KJ Francis]

Value is so subjective too. The price of any good is determined by the market equilibrium of the supply/demand curve. And the curves are made up of many individual data points of different individuals' willingness to pay or sell at a certain price. And it's all moment in time.

Your own abundance level will play into how valuable a girl is at any given time. And your individual needs determine a lot. Right now a stripper girlfriend would be a valuable addition to my life. If I was wife searching at the moment, then maybe not so much. This doesn't change a girl's inherent value. Just her value to me, which differs to a different guy.

Personally the main factor is just infidelity risk for me. And even then, only if we are in an actual cohabitating relationship. Most guys don't want to be used financially or settled for after she couldn't lock down her actual preference. Otherwise I am in agreement with the unfairness gambit.

 

[Will_V]

I look at the overall picture, not just bodycount. Everyone is a product of a set of genes and an environment that together produce a person with certain characteristics and tendencies, which more or less function well within a certain relationship environment.

You want to avoid fighting her deeply ingrained habits, and you definitely do not want to be fighting her nature. As soon as you start thinking "I'll train XYZ out of her" you're already on shaky ground. Because as soon as she stops being in love or the relationship hits trouble, she stops adapting to you, and her habits and her nature come rushing back in to fill the void you left behind.

The problem of choosing a high quality woman is the same one that women have with men: trying to get everything you want in one package. There are characteristics of headstrong, high sex drive, sexually awakened women I enjoy and characteristics of sweet, naive, pliable women I enjoy. The only time problems arise is when you try to get her to be both at the same time. One of them will end up being an illusion, and eventually she'll tire of trying to fit into your fantasy.

This could be easily solved by having multiple women in different roles, which used to be a situation that could be relatively stable, but nowadays is pretty difficult to manage. This is very unfortunate.

For me the really big warning signs are lying and emotional instability, because these are signs of psychological pathology. Everything else isn't so much a problem on its own, but may indicate positive or negative characteristics, together with the rest of my knowledge of her, in terms of what role I want her to have.

 

[Spike]

I look at the overall picture, not just bodycount.

The point yes

You want to avoid fighting her deeply ingrained habits, and you definitely do not want to be fighting her nature

yes

This could be easily solved by having multiple women in different roles

+1

 

[Skills]

I look at the overall picture, not just bodycount. Everyone is a product of a set of genes and an environment that together produce a person with certain characteristics and tendencies, which more or less function well within a certain relationship environment.

You want to avoid fighting her deeply ingrained habits, and you definitely do not want to be fighting her nature. As soon as you start thinking "I'll train XYZ out of her" you're already on shaky ground. Because as soon as she stops being in love or the relationship hits trouble, she stops adapting to you, and her habits and her nature come rushing back in to fill the void you left behind.

The problem of choosing a high quality woman is the same one that women have with men: trying to get everything you want in one package. There are characteristics of headstrong, high sex drive, sexually awakened women I enjoy and characteristics of sweet, naive, pliable women I enjoy. The only time problems arise is when you try to get her to be both at the same time. One of them will end up being an illusion, and eventually she'll tire of trying to fit into your fantasy.

This could be easily solved by having multiple women in different roles, which used to be a situation that could be relatively stable, but nowadays is pretty difficult to manage. This is very unfortunate.

For me the really big warning signs are lying and emotional instability, because these are signs of psychological pathology. Everything else isn't so much a problem on its own, but may indicate positive or negative characteristics, together with the rest of my knowledge of her, in terms of what role I want her to have.

This, but i think they were talking of mother of kids context in the comments, and having a family... The other caviat we are looking at women through men lenses...

Men are pretty much the same dude through life, just minor micro changes vs big changes...

Also dating multiple at times achieves diminishing returns at some points like i explained rotations are overrated post somewhere...

Then we have to always feed the beast that also becomes unsustainable at times..

Women make big changes every 3 to 5 years... Most puas don't experience this cause they can't hold a relationship for 2 seconds, a lot of them by choice...

Some of the changes is hormonal and brain shit, the stage of life changes also are drastic..

So is like every 3 to 5 years you are dating the same girl but a different version of her...

I experience this one too you meet a church girl you corrupt her open her sexually and brain washed her do all types of crazy shit for a while then it crashes she goes back to pretty much normal/ prude...

 

[Spike]

Here we are a bunch of guys that make it a hobby to add +1 to girls body counts with no intention of ever marrying them

Then later start arguing about if low body counts are more valuable... lol

These two things aren’t mutually exclusive. You can sleep with girls that are not relationship material (fuckbuddies) and girls that are relationship material (can drop the other girls and make that one your main).

Men are pretty much the same dude through life, just minor micro changes vs big changes...

Dunno. When I was in my 20s I never thought about marriage and kids. Now in my 30s I’ve given it some thought. Which is why I suddenly care a lot about getting to the top position of my field. As head chef of an established restaurant. Whereas previously I didn’t care. Because I knew girls didn’t care about what I did for a living if I had no intentions of settling down. And I would discard that after I got bored of them.

Women make big changes every 3 to 5 years

So a girl who you’ve been seeing for 2 years that doesn’t lie or isn’t emotionally unstable will suddenly become a liar and emotionally unstable after year 3? If she’s a liar and emotionally unstable from day 1. She will always be a liar and emotionally unstable. That will not change. That’s her nature. And you’ll have no one to blame but yourself for overlooking that trait

For me the really big warning signs are lying and emotional instability, because these are signs of psychological pathology.

 

[Skills]

These two things aren’t mutually exclusive. You can sleep with girls that are not relationship material (fuckbuddies) and girls that are relationship material (can drop the other girls and make that one your main).

correct this is my style........

Dunno. When I was in my 20s I never thought about marriage and kids. Now in my 30s I’ve given it some thought. Which is why I suddenly care a lot about getting to the top position of my field. As head chef of an established restaurant. Whereas previously I didn’t care. Because I knew girls didn’t care about what I did for a living if I had no intentions of settling down. And I would discard that after I got bored of them.

dude i am talking in the core drastic inner presonality changes, you are the same dude since you were 20 and now in your personality, core, stuff like that.... You just maturing and finding what you are wanting, i am talking about core inner changes...Lol i known you forever you are the same dude, i know teevester since he was 16, he is the same dude, just a bit of changes...

So a girl who you’ve been seeing for 2 years that doesn’t lie or isn’t emotionally unstable will suddenly become a liar and emotionally unstable after year 3? If she’s a liar and emotionally unstable from day 1. She will always be a liar and emotionally unstable. That will not change. That’s her nature. And you’ll have no one to blame but yourself for overlooking that trait

correct, which is my emphasis on hoc for ltr goal..... Bro i read a book that matches a bit of what i experience in the longer term relationships over 3 years and some changes i saw, is a book from a yale neuroscientist called the female brain here is from the ai summary for context:

The book "The Female Brain" by Louann Brizendine, published in 2006, explores the differences between male and female brains, focusing on how hormones and other biological factors influence women's behavior, emotions, and cognitive processes. It delves into how these factors shape various aspects of a woman's life, from childhood to menopause, including her relationships, communication styles, and responses to stress.

Here's a more detailed look at the book's key aspects:

• Hormonal Influence:
  The book emphasizes the significant role of hormones like estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone in shaping the female brain and its functions throughout a woman's life.
  
  
• Life Stages:
  Brizendine discusses how the female brain changes and adapts during different life stages, including infancy, puberty, pregnancy, motherhood, and menopause.
  
  
• Behavioral Differences:
  It explores how hormonal and structural differences in the brain contribute to observed differences between men and women in areas like communication, emotional expression, and relationship dynamics.
  
  
• Accessibility:
  While based on scientific research, the book is written in an accessible style for a broad audience, making it easier for women to understand their own brains and for men to gain insights into the female experience.

 

[S.S Can]

Whether it's right or better in a woman isn't the discussion that's being had; the question that was originally asked was what constitutes "value" in a woman. Society at large still typically views a woman's chastity as important, and the concept of supply and demand dictates that value is determined by how much demand there is for something, contrasted with how easy it is to get. This is the entire basis for the luxury goods market.

Although the entire notion of assigning values to people reeks of capitalism, the system that we exist within views women as something to be obtained, and it drives the majority of consumer marketing targeted towards men.

I don't think it can be argued against that having a low body count objectively gives a woman higher value. If you live in the west, your country is founded on Judeo-Christian values that dictate that a woman should be VIRGINAL, forget racking up a couple hundred bodies.

If you're a society guy you might want to tell Mensa Reject that it doesn't matter, but more likely than not, she's going to lock down a guy who's not, and is very concerned with her body count. Asking womanizers is obviously going to skew the opinion towards being more favorable towards promiscuous behavior.

 

[James D]

Just skimmed the thread.

There’s a lot of generalizing followed by mischaracterizations of others’ generalizations.

Holy generalizations, Batman!


ARE HIGH BODY COUNT OR LOW BODY COUNT WOMEN CRAZIER?

Here are some important points IMO:

• Some women with high body counts are disordered.
• Not all women with high body counts are disordered.
• Some women with low body counts are disordered.
• Not all women with high body counts are disordered.

Example of a high body count woman who is disordered:

A girl with borderline personality disorder who jumps from man to man to man. She can’t hold down a job and her friendships and relationships are like revolving doors laced with TNT.

Example of a high body count woman who is not disordered:

A high-testosterone girl who is naturally high in sensation seeking. She holds down a stable job and has healthy friendships; however, she simply just LOVES cock!

Example of a low body count woman who is disordered:

Anal-retentive paranoid girl who finds sex icky and fears the feeling of losing control she has around sex. To her, sex is something to be avoided as much as possible, and rigidly controlled when not able to be avoided.

Example of a low body count woman who is not disordered:

A girl with an average sex drive who has not undergone a sexual awakening and never got into party/hookup culture. She’s had a couple of boyfriends but both were middling in bed. For her, sex is kind of nice but not really something to get too excited about; she’s yet to have a great sexual experience or unlock any orgasms other than clitoral.


BUT ARE MORE HIGH OR LOW BODY COUNT DISORDERED?

Is the % of very high count women who are disordered higher than the % of very low count women who are disordered? I don’t know. I’m not certain anyone’s done that research. But also, does it matter?

Let’s say we have two guys vetting for a long-term girlfriend / potential future wife.

• Guy A strongly prefers to marry a low count wife. He prefers lower risks of infidelity/divorce and a higher certainty of paternity for his future offspring. An average, ordinary sex life is fine for him.
  
  
• Guy B strongly prefers to marry a high count wife. He prefers a very active, open sex life and a “live and let live” attitude toward extramarital sex. He is not overly concerned about divorce or paternity.

Assuming that both Guy A and Guy B have abundance with women and the ability to vet, is there any reason Guy A would choose to marry a disordered low count girl, instead of rejecting her and finding a sane low count girl, or that Guy B would choose to marry a disordered high count girl, instead of rejecting her and finding a sane high count girl?

Neither of these is likely.

Either a man has abundance, in which case he is not going to accept a woman who has traits that are major handicaps for him, or he does not have abundance, in which case he’ll take anything (then justify it to himself).

If we are talking anything other than marriage / committed relationships, then body count is irrelevant, except as a fetish thing: “Man, I love taking girls’ virginity!” vs. “Nothing better than a girl who can work her pussy like a third hand.” (body count also has some importance in assessing STD risks)


AVERAGE PARTNER COUNT NUMBERS

Also, since everyone is talking statistics here, we ran a poll of American women in December 2022.

Here are the stats (for women who are straight, bi, pansexual, or demisexual; left out the lesbians, asexuals, etc.):

• 18-20 y/o:
  • Mean partner count: 2.
  • Median partner count: 1.
  • 62% have 1 or fewer.
  • 24% have 2-3.
  • 8% have 4-5.
  • One girl said 8 and another girl said 24.
• 25 y/o:
  • Mean partner count: 3.3.
  • Median partner count: 1.
  • 53% have 1 or fewer.
  • 25% have 2-3.
  • 9% have 4-7.
  • 6% have 10+.
  • Of the high rankers, two girls had 10, two had 25, two had 26, two had 27, one had 28, one had 39, one had 42, and one had 50.

Our poll was an anonymous self-report. One study found that:

• College women asked face-to-face reported their body counts as 2.6 (men said 3.7)
• College women asked in anonymous self reports claimed 3.4 bodies (men said 4.2)
• College women hooked up to lie detectors claimed 4.4 bodies (men said 4.0)

So if you want to run the numbers from our stats through the “What would it be if it was a lie detector instead of an anonymous report?” just bump the numbers up +29% (which is the difference between anonymous self-reports and lie detectors).

(why are the average numbers a bit different in the university paper vs. our poll? Probably because the university sampled women enrolled in an Introductory Psychology course in 2003, where ours was a national survey in 2022. College girls have more sex, and people were having more sex in 2003 than they have been in recent years, and if my experience counts for anything girls who take psychology tend to have more sex as well )

…

So there ya go.

Now it’s not just opinions anymore

Ciao,
Chase

Thank you for this refreshingly balanced argument.

The amount of ego present in some of the arguments in this thread is draining.

High quality girl = whatever the man decides is high quality.

To each man his own preference. As long as he's happy with his choice.

 

[StrayDog]

Whether it's right or better in a woman isn't the discussion that's being had; the question that was originally asked was what constitutes "value" in a woman. Society at large still typically views a woman's chastity as important, and the concept of supply and demand dictates that value is determined by how much demand there is for something, contrasted with how easy it is to get. This is the entire basis for the luxury goods market.

Although the entire notion of assigning values to people reeks of capitalism, the system that we exist within views women as something to be obtained, and it drives the majority of consumer marketing targeted towards men.

I don't think it can be argued that having a low body count objectively gives a woman higher value. If you live in the west, your country is founded on Judeo-Christian values that dictate that a woman should be VIRGINAL, forget racking up a couple hundred bodies.

If you're a society guy you might want to tell Mensa Reject that it doesn't matter, but more likely than not, she's going to lock down a guy who's not, and is very concerned with her body count. Asking womanizers is obviously going to skew the opinion towards being more favorable towards promiscuous behavior.

is there any society (current or historical) that generally or entirely values women with loose sexual morals above those that are chaste, In an open and mainstream manner?
not of course considering the hypocrisy of society and how it's often values many of the things it purports to disdain (as in the society SAYs it values chaste women, but covertly values it's sluts I.E. millions of pornhub views daily) I am not aware of one.

 

[Chase]

Thank you for this refreshingly balanced argument.

The amount of ego present in some of the arguments in this thread is draining.

High quality girl = whatever the man decides is high quality.

To each man his own preference. As long as he's happy with his choice.

These kinds of convos often go off the rails because guys start unconsciously defending the value of their chosen women against attacks against the value of their chosen women.

Attacks against the value of chosen women = attacks against your own value ("Haha, you choose low value women. I guess you must have something wrong with you!").

Anyway, if you like muscular girls with short hair and some dude comes along saying muscular girls with short hair are low value, you are going to feel personally attacked, then probably start listing out reasons why muscular girls with short hair are higher value than slim girls with long hair...

Which is going to make the guys who are into slim girls with long hair feel personally attacked and need to retaliate by talking about how actually their girls are the ones higher value than the muscular short-hair girls...

So now you need to clap back again...

Ad infinitum!

Conversations about values and opinions nearly always play out this way.

As soon as people start talking about how their values are the better values, the whole conversation's cooked.

No amount of debating has ever made anyone switch his values to someone else's.

(imagine: "Ah, I see. How could I have thought low/high body count girls were more/less valuable? I was completely mistaken!")



Chase

 

[StrayDog]

These kinds of convos often go off the rails because guys start unconsciously defending the value of their chosen women against attacks against the value of their chosen women.

Attacks against the value of chosen women = attacks against your own value ("Haha, you choose low value women. I guess you must have something wrong with you!").

Anyway, if you like muscular girls with short hair and some dude comes along saying muscular girls with short hair are low value, you are going to feel personally attacked, then probably start listing out reasons why muscular girls with short hair are higher value than slim girls with long hair...

Which is going to make the guys who are into slim girls with long hair feel personally attacked and need to retaliate by talking about how actually their girls are the ones higher value than the muscular short-hair girls...

So now you need to clap back again...

Ad infinitum!

Conversations about values and opinions nearly always play out this way.

As soon as people start talking about how their values are the better values, the whole conversation's cooked.

No amount of debating has ever made anyone switch his values to someone else's.

(imagine: "Ah, I see. How could I have thought low/high body count girls were more/less valuable? I was completely mistaken!")



Chase

it's fascinating, honestly.

like even someone can say they don't value a woman who is a liar. But if the other dude is some crime lord he might go "now wait a minute, I like a woman who is good at lying. She helps me keep my empire in order".

 

[Chase]

it's fascinating, honestly.

like even someone can say they don't value a woman who is a liar. But if the other dude is some crime lord he might go "now wait a minute, I like a woman who is good at lying. She helps me keep my empire in order".

 

[S.S Can]

is there any society (current or historical) that generally or entirely values women with loose sexual morals above those that are chaste, In an open and mainstream manner?
not of course considering the hypocrisy of society and how it's often values many of the things it purports to disdain (as in the society SAYs it values chaste women, but covertly values it's sluts I.E. millions of pornhub views daily) I am not aware of one.

Some african/indigenous tribes view it as a sign of vitality/fertility, but I think for the most part, chaste women are more valued universally.

 

[StrayDog]

great song and also a perfect example of how people want things that you'd think they wouldn't.

I may just be somewhat cynical about human nature but I don't think that what we value is always so cut and dry. We say we want a thing, but our behavior points to another. Or then there's the fact that people can HIGHLY value things that aren't exactly in their self interest.

I think we often operate from some sort of unconscious strata, and what ends up defining the shape of our relationships isn't entirely in our conscious control.

There is always a bit of a gamble to life and what we invest ourselves in, and we are often shooting in the dark a bit. Flying by the seat of our pants.

This isn't to say that we can't strive towards some ideal. Or that we are entirely without reason. But I do think that it dictates that there isn't exactly a perfect template for what constitutes a well functioning relationship that spans decades and continues to be balanced and engaging. Which honestly is quite rare in and of itself.

For every example of a slut who goes on to cheat in a long term relationship, there's one of a slut that just settles down (not mentioning how simple/challenging fidelity becomes for her). And so on for any other value/characteristic one might have.

One person in relating to another will bring out qualities that someone else entirely would never even dream of bringing out in them.

Obviously there are some patterns you can look out for when navigating these sort of things. But the map isn't always the terrain. Especially when it comes to human beings.

 

[Spike]

I think for the most part, chaste women are more valued universally.

As it should be. Imagine living in a society where every girl you sleep with carries a high risk of catching an STD. And each girl your with that does end up getting pregnant, becomes a “cross
your fingers, hope that kid is mine”gamble because you’re only just one of the 12 guys that came inside her that month. That’s what a no slut shaming society would devolve into.

 

[Atlas IV]

As it should be. Imagine living in a society where every girl you sleep with carries a high risk of catching an STD. And each girl your with that does end up getting pregnant, becomes a “cross
your fingers, hope that kid is mine”gamble because you’re only just one of the 12 guys that came inside her that month. That’s what a no slut shaming society would devolve into.

Contraception?

Also there's no need to imagine it, there are places you can go if you want to see what that world looks like. Just look for a town that was built around a sex industry (I can think of several). There's no slut shaming because the entire place lives and breathes sex.

In my experience, most of the girls there are actually pretty sensible and practicing safe sex. They know the risks of unsafe sex better than most girls. Towns like that just disproportionally attract girls with high sex drive, who enjoy living for sensual pleasure and somewhere that they can do what they want without being judged.

 

[Spike]

Contraception?

I don’t use condoms with the girls I sleep with. In that society I would catch a million diseases in no time Vs the current one where girls are more picky (due to slut shaming among other reasons) about who they let inside them.