FU Lukewarm simple drinks date

[raiden]

Backstory:
we connected on an online dating system some months ago. We weren't really in contact much, mostly because I was on a break from dates after some life stuff and losing out on another girl I liked due to other circumstances.

I contacted her recently and she suggested that we have a phone call before meeting. We had the call and it was good but I think that I let it go on too long. She has a lot to say and is pretty interesting so I just let her talk and the call went on and on. I was pretty surprised that she said yes to a date and more surprised that the date didn't get canceled.

The date :
I have poor fundamentals and I thought that she was just showing up to close the chapter on our multiple month interaction so I just thought to sit down with her for a beverage and get myself home. Plus, she's my height or a little taller, and I've often been rejected for height. I got it totally wrong. She greeted me warmly and I did the old hand clasp greeting. When we got to the saloon, she paid for both of our drinks. I had a bit of trouble finding good seating and we ended up across from each other, so that limited the touching possibilities.

During the date, it seemed to me that she was really enjoying me and was giving me compliments and possibly escalation windows. Whatever it was, she didn't seem like she was just about to gulp down her drink and say goodbye as fast as possible.

Some highlights of the date :
-She asked early on if I live nearby.
-She frequently told me about how I'm a good fit for her because of our shared cultural fit etc. Even when I tried to suggest otherwise she explained why I was a good fit. Seemed a lot like qualifying and screening from her.
-she's had plenty of relationships in the past (way more than I have) and is very sociable. Pretty much opposite to me. So she may have been enjoying the interaction just on the level of socialising rather than being interested in me.
-she's a bit of a clean freak. The only logistics I have involve a slightly messy area that's being renovated/cleaned so I gave up on seeding the pull or trying to pull because I've had women change their minds when seeing the mess.
-we touched a few times to compare muscle strength (she has a new year fitness goal) and I softly teased her when she showed me the fat that she wanted to lose. That was fun and she found it funny too. But then she asked if I have a preferred body type and I may have disqualified her with my wishy washy answer (more qualification and screening from her...). She's super sexy to me but it has never gone well for me to tell women that. Like the date that I wrote up around 3 weeks ago, she seemed totally comfortable with my touch.
-Knowing that the pull was off, I wanted to end the date after around 90 minutes. But she's so good at talking that we didn't end until around 130 minutes and she said that she had to get going before I did.
-She played with her hair a lot and adjusted her clothing. I don't know if this is just incidental or some kind of escalation window stuff. That's beyond the scope of my knowledge.
-we hugged goodbye and I thanked her again for paying for the drinks.

Closing thoughts
-I really think that she didn't have much bad to say about my fundamentals and that's good.
-this girl is charming and very easy to talk to because she always has something to say or talk about. She's sociable and talkative. I don't know if these characteristics are really good for the seducer or can make it easier for him to fail to direct the conversation.
-When I get rejected, I won't know if it's a rejection (poor game, poor fundamentals) or auto rejection (poor attainability).
-overall, I feel like both of us enjoyed the date but it wasn't strong enough from me. It reminds me of many of my past platonic, vanilla coffee dates, though there was certainly more teasing and joking in this date.

 

[gameboy]

I'm pretty sure your problem is not your fundamentals which you seem to keep complaining about in every post, but your negative self talk. Like:

"Lukewarm"​

"I think that I let it go on too long"
"I thought that she was just showing up to close the chapter on our multiple month interaction"
"I've often been rejected for height"

...etc.

Her playing with her hair is her flirting with you. That's a great sign!

Never mind some mess around your place. If a woman is into you that is the last thing she will be bothered by. Just invite her home next time, and see what happens. If she likes you you should use that to escalate. If you wait too long she may auto-reject at some point.

You really should do something about theses negative thoughts though, because they're not doing you any good. Maybe meditation can help. If not, you may want to consider doing some therapy with a professional.

 

[raiden]

I'm pretty sure your problem is not your fundamentals which you seem to keep complaining about in every post, but your negative self talk. Like:

"Lukewarm"​

"I think that I let it go on too long"
"I thought that she was just showing up to close the chapter on our multiple month interaction"
"I've often been rejected for height"

...etc.

Her playing with her hair is her flirting with you. That's a great sign!

Never mind some mess around your place. If a woman is into you that is the last thing she will be bothered by. Just invite her home next time, and see what happens. If she likes you you should use that to escalate. If you wait too long she may auto-reject at some point.

You really should do something about theses negative thoughts though, because they're not doing you any good. Maybe meditation can help. If not, you may want to consider doing some therapy with a professional.

I've had years of dating failures and I'm a multi year incel. The thoughts will go away when that changes. Therapists couldn't get it out from me last time I went.

This woman said on the date that messiness gives her the ick and that's why she likes to clean up. In the past I've brought women back, who didn't even give me a warning like that, who started feeling uncomfortable before I even sat down next to them, ostensibly due to the messiness or state of disrepair. This woman today explicitly warned me so I didn't have the heart to even consider the pull.

 

[TomInHo]

Uhmmm @raiden

Why didn’t you attempt to pull this girl home with all the signals she displayed ?

Also I’m very curious. Why would you go on a date while your place is messy?

 

[StrayDog]

I see you doing a lot right on this date, while at the same time not doing what it actually takes to make things happen.

You seem to he second guessing your self a lot at every turn. But you also seem to have a decent ability to read signals and at least run a basic analysis on how things went down.

You over all are very passive. In this instance it still worked out because she was into you on a basic level, and sort of moving things along. But when it came time to actually make big moves you got gun shy. Next time aim to be one step ahead of the frame, and instead of having her hit on all the important points first, try to lead the girl to them yourself.

I understand how the renovations at your place can feel like an impediment, and the mess does count for something to be certain, but if you have established some really juicy lover frames, given her plausible deniability, and have at least some portion of your pad where the two of you can be comfortable, this shouldn't matter all that much.
Get your place as in order as you can (or screen to see if you can pull to hers) and next time the opportunity is there pull. No excuses. Just do it.

I mean for real, you get a women really hurting for the d and you can even get her planning with you what the next move should be. Like "we this is incredibly refreshing. I think we should go somewhere we can just relax and keep spending time, but my place is no good". Shit, she wants it bad enough you could even suggest a hotel or something. So stop looking for these external excuses.

You basically failed to make a move when it counted, and let the interaction run on way too long until it ran out of steam.

Your question at the end there about weather you are being rejected or if she is auto rejecting is valid. As it can sometimes be tricky to know. Given the way this interaction went, where she was investing a lot, and qualifying herself, I wouldn't be surprised that she auto rejected. Basically got tired of the fact that you weren't picking up what she was throwing down, so she bounced.

In fact, you might be getting this more than you are aware of. Because you are too concerned with fucking up and fail to make meaningful moves when the opportunity is there. Especially when a gal is keen on you like this.

In many ways it seems like you already know what you need to do, but instead take the more passive approach.

Next time a girl is keen on you like this, get infront of the frame. Ratchet up the tension a bit more by adding in some light sex talk. Seed the pull. Then when she is clearly bought in pull to yours. Remain chill when you arrive at yours, and aim to stick the landing.

This isn't rocket science @raiden you are just so deep in the rabbit hole of psyching yourself out that you have forgotten what you already instinctually know. So even when you have a good opportunity, you kind of freeze up.

I mean for fucks sake man, the amount of women you even manage to get on dates. You must be doing something right. So maybe just do the rest of it right from now on.

You see an escalation window, take it. If it doesn't quite land, remain chill and keep your head in the game. No biggie, just calibrate and move form there. But you gotta start making more moves, being more daring. Testing where the line is at. It is the only way you will learn to succeed.

P.S this kind of point by point field report is way more helpful than the other threads you were posting where you were more or less just venting. Way more practical info here to work with.

 

[raiden]

Well, I've been ghosted. Looking back, it was overall a bad date. I suggested we cook together for a second date and it seems like she said that it sounded good. But we couldn't organize this because both of our places are unsuitable. That's when the ghosting started. I wanted to organize another public date but I'm ghosted now.

Assume that I would have always weaseled out of trying to pull her. What could I have done, if anything, to make this a successful date? More attainability (compliment and qualify her well)? Better conversational control from me (conversation isn't a big deal so I expect that this wouldn't have changed anything)? Plan and agree to a second date during the first date? Venue switch?

Mystery, in the 90s, used to do 6-8 contact hours before the seduction phase. Many of my friends did weeks or months of dates with their respective girlfriends before getting there. If I've screwed up this date by not moving fast enough then I'm pretty annoyed that I didn't get the benefit that these guys did. It could just be my fundamentals that failed me though. Women can be having a good time with me but when they reflect on it, maybe my fundamentals really make it difficult for them to be enthusiastic about me.

 

[StrayDog]

dude, you didn't move fast enough with her on the first date when she was showing tons of interest. Then for a second date you suggest date you suggest cooking together, but have no game plan for her on how that will happen (cause apparently you cant host her?). She has no sense of where this is actually headed. Her only experience with you is that if things are going well and you two are hitting it off, the date will just drag on and go no where. What incentive does she have to believe the second date will be any different. Especially if you can't even follow through with the date idea you yourself suggested. Not surprising she would not be in touch at this point.

 

[StrayDog]

also, you keep saying "my fundamentals are poor" but I am not sure what you mean by fundamentals, and how you think they are poor.

Also if they are so poor, why don't you improve them

 

[TomInHo]

Well, I've been ghosted. Looking back, it was overall a bad date. I suggested we cook together for a second date and it seems like she said that it sounded good. But we couldn't organize this because both of our places are unsuitable. That's when the ghosting started. I wanted to organize another public date but I'm ghosted now.

Assume that I would have always weaseled out of trying to pull her. What could I have done, if anything, to make this a successful date? More attainability (compliment and qualify her well)? Better conversational control from me (conversation isn't a big deal so I expect that this wouldn't have changed anything)? Plan and agree to a second date during the first date? Venue switch?

Mystery, in the 90s, used to do 6-8 contact hours before the seduction phase. Many of my friends did weeks or months of dates with their respective girlfriends before getting there. If I've screwed up this date by not moving fast enough then I'm pretty annoyed that I didn't get the benefit that these guys did. It could just be my fundamentals that failed me though. Women can be having a good time with me but when they reflect on it, maybe my fundamentals really make it difficult for them to be enthusiastic about me.

You’re focused on all the wrong things

She ghosted you because you move too slow and probably found someone else that reads her signals better

And please shut up about your fundamentals. Fix them if you’re insecure about it because your whining is annoying

Women seem unenthusiastic about you because they want to date a man and not a woman. You constantly complaining, crying and not taking risks is extremely passive, feminine and unattractive

They want to get fucked but you don’t act like a man that can get the job done

Just my observation but I know you won’t listen but will stay passive and wonder why you still get no success

 

[gameboy]

I have a feeling the girls ghost you because of your negative self image. It oozes out of every post of yours here, and I'm sure girls can feel that too.

You are meeting most of these girls online, right? You seem to be able to maintain a good impression over text, because you are going on a lot of dates.

But in person, sooner or later the girls notice that on some level you are resisting. Btw, have you tried following Chase's step by step kino guide that I think he wrote in response to one of your posts?

 

[raiden]

I accept the criticisms here but I'm just saying that there are guys who have long drawn out seductions and do OK. I know guys who had lots of dates before the seduction and ended up with a girlfriend. If we accept that I'm always going to weasel out and not move fast enough, what can I change to make my seductions more like those of these guys? In other words, why do I seem to experience women being much less forgiving of moving slowly than my friends do?

My God given fundamentals are poor. It's my height and ethnicity and my looks. I can get by with what I have on the date but when a woman goes home and checks the online menu again, she'll see that I don't compare favorably. Are my fundamentals and this exact phenomenon causing my issues having a slow seduction?

In addition to my hang ups about moving fast, I don't have good or any logistics. I don't have my own place where we won't be disturbed. The place where I want to go is another place, used and owned by a family member, that's currently getting cleaned up.

 

[raiden]

I have a feeling the girls ghost you because of your negative self image. It oozes out of every post of yours here, and I'm sure girls can feel that too.

You are meeting most of these girls online, right? You seem to be able to maintain a good impression over text, because you are going on a lot of dates.

But in person, sooner or later the girls notice that on some level you are resisting. Btw, have you tried following Chase's step by step kino guide that I think he wrote in response to one of your posts?

The guide went out the window as soon as we went to a saloon and sat opposite each other. I think that I hit two or three touches in the first 10 minutes but then it was like 3 touches over 2 hours, while Chase's guide recommends touching frequently, say once every 10 minutes. Should I just move the furniture in the venue if possible so that we can sit at right angles?

 

[TomInHo]

I accept the criticisms here but I'm just saying that there are guys who have long drawn out seductions and do OK. I know guys who had lots of dates before the seduction and ended up with a girlfriend. If we accept that I'm always going to weasel out and not move fast enough, what can I change to make my seductions more like those of these guys? In other words, why do I seem to experience women being much less forgiving of moving slowly than my friends do?

My God given fundamentals are poor. It's my height and ethnicity and my looks. I can get by with what I have on the date but when a woman goes home and checks the online menu again, she'll see that I don't compare favorably. Are my fundamentals and this exact phenomenon causing my issues having a slow seduction?

In addition to my hang ups about moving fast, I don't have good or any logistics. I don't have my own place where we won't be disturbed. The place where I want to go is another place, used and owned by a family member, that's currently getting cleaned up.

You came to a site about seducing girls fast to learn how to seduce them slow?

That makes zero sense and I can see right through your BS

You want to take it slow because you’re scared of rejection. It has nothing to do with preference of style or what your friends are doing

If going slow works for you then by all means do it. But look at your past results and you’ll see that it clearly doesn’t work

Tbh I don’t think you even want sex. But want women for attention and validation.

So if you’re unwilling to improve yourself to become more sexually attractive with your behavior maybe you should consider another approach.

Like making some money and getting sugar babies since your fundies are so horrible and you’re so resistant to changing your seduction style. And save us the headache of reading your whining self deprecating posts

 

[StrayDog]

I accept the criticisms here but I'm just saying that there are guys who have long drawn out seductions and do OK. I know guys who had lots of dates before the seduction and ended up with a girlfriend. If we accept that I'm always going to weasel out and not move fast enough, what can I change to make my seductions more like those of these guys? In other words, why do I seem to experience women being much less forgiving of moving slowly than my friends do?

why don't you ask your friends?

Aside from your poor pacing (even if you took a more "traditional" approach to dating, you still need to consider pacing). You have bad framing, and a lack of leading. Way too passive. No matter how many dates you want to draw the whole thing out over. So fix all that maybe. Maybe if you where this super dominant dude who lead things with gusto, and built tension and intrigue, set the right frames, and called the shots. Maybe you could get these women out over a number of dates. But I wouldn't recommend drawing things out so long. Especially since you are underdeveloped in all those areas

Look man, you have to strike while the iron is hot. That's life. Your best opportunity is in the moment. Not the future.


Why do you want to draw things out so long any way? My theory is that the idea is appealing because it allows you to be passive.

My God given fundamentals are poor. It's my height and ethnicity and my looks. I can get by with what I have on the date but when a woman goes home and checks the online menu again, she'll see that I don't compare favorably. Are my fundamentals and this exact phenomenon causing my issues having a slow seduction?

Your god given looks are not your fundamentals

Your fundamentals are the things you can change/work on

Your presence
Your Voice
The way you style yourself
The way you cary yourself

You can't change your good given looks, so you have to find a way to get over it and be confident in yourself any way.

In addition to my hang ups about moving fast, I don't have good or any logistics. I don't have my own place where we won't be disturbed. The place where I want to go is another place, used and owned by a family member, that's currently getting cleaned up.

Excuses, excuses

 

[gameboy]

Should I just move the furniture in the venue if possible so that we can sit at right angles?

Yes, that would actually be a bold move that would be sure to impress the girl. I would also tell her "This table is in the way, I want to have you closer" while you do it.

Alternatively, if moving furniture isn't an option, go to a better venue in the first place. Or move her after 10 minutes.

It's not like these things are rocket science...

 

[gameboy]

As for your friends who took it slow: Did they also meet those girls on apps? Or where did they meet them?

When you meet someone on an app, I believe it is implied that you are going to have sex relatively quickly. As opposed to social circle, meeting someone at work and the like.

 

[StrayDog]

Tbh I don’t think you even want sex. But want women for attention and validation.

Not even just for sex, but companionship or anything other than validating himself. Or maybe its that he wants them around rejecting him to reinforce his negative view of himself. In which case, mission accomplished.

 

[TomInHo]

Or maybe its that he wants them around rejecting him to reinforce his negative view of himself. In which case, mission accomplished.

Bingo

OP has very low self esteem and self sabotages to reinforce to himself that he’s not good enough to receive good things

 

[Skills]

I accept the criticisms here but I'm just saying that there are guys who have long drawn out seductions and do OK. I know guys who had lots of dates before the seduction and ended up with a girlfriend. If we accept that I'm always going to weasel out and not move fast enough, what can I change to make my seductions more like those of these guys? In other words, why do I seem to experience women being much less forgiving of moving slowly than my friends do?

My God given fundamentals are poor. It's my height and ethnicity and my looks. I can get by with what I have on the date but when a woman goes home and checks the online menu again, she'll see that I don't compare favorably. Are my fundamentals and this exact phenomenon causing my issues having a slow seduction?

In addition to my hang ups about moving fast, I don't have good or any logistics. I don't have my own place where we won't be disturbed. The place where I want to go is another place, used and owned by a family member, that's currently getting cleaned up.

you need to work on your self image issues, if you don't believe in yourself why would a girl believe in you....

there is a pua term saying she will feel what you feel.... Get the book psycho cybernetics the one with maxwell

 

[gameboy]

Plus, if you ever DO get a girl that is looking for a guy with low self esteem, she's likely to be a narcissist that is going to make your life hell.

Seriously, I'm not saying this to criticize you and/or put you down. Even though it may feel that way. We're trying to help.