Michael Sartain and Alex Playing with fire different view of seduction

[ulrich]

But you do care about your looks as a pua, right? You want to have good money as well, just for yourself, right? Why is status different?

I agree with you that status maxing can bring otherworldly results in some circles but I also think it’s the most time and resource consuming of the three.

Looks maxing is for the most part not that time consuming (maybe 2 hours a day in the gym + your beauty ritual) and there are always cheap options for supplements and beauty tools. The only way to break the bank that I can think of is surgeries which usually look bad on men.

Money maxing can get pretty time consuming but hey, the whole point is getting money which is a resource itself. And not a situational one like status.

Status maxing on the other hand requires you to throw substantial amounts of your time AND your money on people who might not be worth it in the future.
The kind of socialité circles we are talking about will have you join them for expensive restaurants outings and trips, pay for bottle services, expensive nightclubs, etc… all the while keeping tabs on people who come and go from your circles and dealing with drama and ladder climbing behavior.

I mean, if you want to do it, go for it.

But I don’t think it’s hard to understand that most guys don’t want to spend their hard earned money and time in pleasing people who are not really close friends for a possible future reward.

Also sucking up to people (which happens a lot) is off putting for many.

 

[Zoro]

Let’s not forget a little bit of status can go a long way.

Being in a cool band, having a cool social circle, being an event organizer of a small get together, hosting a party.

Yeah these things take work but not much, and I’ve seen these bring in hot quality girls for myself and other guys.

Side note, I think doing any of those activities with a genuine interest in them is the effective way to do it. You meet cool guys this way as well, which then can expand your social circle even more, open up networking and business opportunities, more fun shit to do, and obviously girls in that social circle.

I think super high status (basically fame) sounds like a chore and unnecessary.

Also location plays a part in this. What’s seen as cool and high status in a smaller city on the east coast might just be par for the course in LA or Miami.

 

[Don Giovanni]

@J Wick explained it well.

lifestyle sacrifices that having status does. Everything comes with its price and its spoils.

What sacrifices are you talking about?

Status maxing on the other hand requires you to throw substantial amounts of your time AND your money on people who might not be worth it in the future.
The kind of socialité circles we are talking about will have you join them for expensive restaurants outings and trips, pay for bottle services, expensive nightclubs, etc…

Not necessary. Just throw a house party, have one of your friends dj or play with a band or do something that is fun for YOU. Do it twice a year and I guarantee you will see results in your circle.

But I don’t think it’s hard to understand that most guys don’t want to spend their hard earned money and time in pleasing people who are not really close friends for a possible future reward.

Also sucking up to people (which happens a lot) is off putting for many.

And guys shouldn’t do this. This is how you become unlikable.

It’s not just millionares on a yacht with IG models and everyone else who is a peasant. In fact I find this cliche designed to brainwash people.

 

[Skills]

I did a video talking how they do this, based on my wing primo

 

[ulrich]

Not necessary. Just throw a house party, have one of your friends dj or play with a band or do something that is fun for YOU. Do it twice a year and I guarantee you will see results in your circle.

Then, we are not talking about maxxxing, are we?

 

[Don Giovanni]

Then, we are not talking about maxxxing, are we?

I never used that word. Glad we’re on the same page

 

[StrayDog]

What sacrifices are you talking about?

There are trade-offs to everything in life. In this case, we are talking about a lifestyle requires a great deal of social circle maintenance and engagement. What that asks of someone varies depending on a number of factors, but it will definitely shape your lifestyle in ways that might not flow as well with other sorts of lifestyle choices (which again comes down to personal value.

Some potential trade off's I see are
-Having a higher profile and needing to manage ones public image VS Being low key and being able to fly under the radar in life (which frees up a lot of energy for other pursuits, and comes with many other benefits both in pick up and otherwise)
-Having a lifestyle that revolves around larger social groups which require a good deal of management VS Having a smaller but more consistent friend group/individual friendships that you can put all the energy into strengthening and deepening. Or for some players, few friends at all (as it might suit their personal lifestyle more)
-Having to deal with all sorts of politics that come with having larger social circles. This can also come with a good deal of drama and time spent resolving conflicts VS Not

There are many other trade-offs I am sure we could all come up with. Again, any trade comes with its advantages and drawbacks. We sacrifice one set of benefits for another, and in turn, have to deal with the challenges that come with those benefits. It is a risk/reward analysis every player must run, based on his set of personal values.

Sure, all of these things exist on a spectrum and are not either-or. We can build dynamic lifestyles and incorporate many different elements and angles. All of these things can be scaled to one degree or another. Like you are saying. You don't have to have these super lavish mansion parties with hundreds of people. You can just have a good ol' fashioned house party (I am actually throwing one of those this weekend, and it is going to be fire). The thing is though, like everything in life, the more you invest in something the more there is a return on your investment (granted you are investing wisely). So, yeah throwing two ragers every year can come with some benefits. But is it really all that better than having not had those parties? Are you going to make some cool new connections and have some solid new leads? Most likely. Are you going to have a flood of new women clamoring to be in your presence? Probably not. That is the thing with these status game dudes. Their Strategy only works at its most optimal when it is scaled up really large. The dam only breaks at a certain level. The benefits when scaled down plateau out pretty hard before the graph jumps up to its peak. This is precisely why the status player must keep pursuing and building status, and why if he loses status the fall is pretty hard (granted the player lacked fundamental game to begin with). Does this mean that status is not worth pursuing unless you are going to go big? Certainly not. There are plenty of reasons to develop that aspect of one's life. Does pursuing a more scaled-down Sartain-styled status game offer a great deal more benefits to the average player than not pursuing that angle? Well, I'd say that all comes down to the player, their skill set, and personal values. In and of it itself though, I wouldn't say that this approach is any more beneficial than other styles of game.

And this here is my gripe with these status guys. They often lay claim (or heavily insinuate) that their lifestyle and values are definitively peak. It is absurd. Do I admire and value aspects of their life. Sure. But hey I also admire and value Sadhus who literally hold their arm up for twelve years straight until it is a lifeless stump, all in the name of Krishna (who they believe to be the highest form of consciousness). Does this mean that I need to emulate them for my life, or that their life is the truest highest expression of living? On the flip side of my admiration, I find elements of their lives to be sad and inscrutable to my sensibilities. Though I am sure for some people the same can be said about my life

 

[YS.]

This guy Michael Sartain is a 'status guy'. He is appealing to a certain niche -- the status-seeking crowd -- and appears to be delivering the goods for that crowd. Good for him and them.

A lot of guys in PUA are not 'status guys'. Pickup is a loner's game; it is going out under cloak of anonymity to use the persona and skills you've developed to pluck a woman out of the life she was living and pull her into yours, with little more than force of personality and attractive characteristics.

For the seducer, there's no need to maintain a heavy social circle, to manage all the relationships and status games / backstabbing / ladder-climbing the status guys deal with, and you aren't stressed out worrying all the time about your public perception. On the downside, you are starting from scratch every time you leave the house, and you will face a lot more rejection than the status guy needs to deal with inside his status bubble of people who know and like (or at least hope to use or ally with) him.

There tend to be clashes when you throw status guys and PUAs into the same setting and make them mix.

These are different kinds of men, seeking different things, at a rather foundational level.



They're looking for different things.

It's like going on a bear hunters' forum and saying, "Everyone knows hunting sharks is the real pro leagues in the hunting world."

You're just looking for trouble & arguments doing that.



I don't want to be mean to these girls.

But all these chicks grew up as flat-chested nobodies in high school, super insecure about their looks, and went overdrive turning themselves into plastic thirst traps as adults, surrounding themselves with huge social media followings of desperate, thirsty, clueless men.

They have one trick, where they try their best to emulate naturally high genetic quality women, taking advantage of makeup, lighting, expressions, surgery, and faux sexual availability signals, that short circuits the brains of thirsty men and causes them to chase.

I don't see a problem with liking them. A lot of guys like them. Status-seeker males in particular adore these types of girls. It's totally fine.

But let's not get carried away painting miss "everyone-ignored-me-until-I-got-these-implants-and-started-showing-them-off-everywhere" as the ultimate embodiment of feminine perfection.

There is an ultimate embodiment of feminine perfection... but these chicks are simulacrums of it.

That said, they are often doing the best they can, and there is something to admire in their striving.



Well, let's see. Jesse Preston. Objective 9, you say?

I wouldn't normally go into detail on one of these (every man's entitled to his opinion), but you say it's not opinion, but objective fact.

In which case, we can happily dive in and see if objective fact agrees.

I'm unfamiliar with Jesse Preston, so let's look her up:

View attachment 273

Hmm. Well, she's got the whole beady eyes, mouse nose, crooked smile thing going on, and her shoulders look like she'd be everyone's first pick for the girl's rugby team in gym class. But her hair's done well, and her eyebrows are plucked. Imagine how she'd look without the heavy makeup though... facially a 6 maybe (unless she's highly similar to your face type, in which case you'll rate her higher)?

In body photos, she's thin at least, though she has no ass, and her tits are fake (anyone can get those; they cost 10 Gs). Pretty much every photo of her is her showing off her big fake tits, trying to activate that "OMG, she wants to mate!" signal men have in their brains.

Also (I feel a little bad for picking on her), how hold is she? This chick looks weathered... let's do a quick search and see if we can figure it out...

... aaaand dotage confirmed: Model Mayhem says she's 35.

So, I don't knock her for trying to do the best she has with what she's got. She's not awful. She's got that mousy Eva Mendes look, which is not a look for everyone, but some guys like it.

You really can't find girls like her (or... better than her) at Wal-Mart though? Hmm...

View attachment 274

There's a whole thread of these photos. Some of whom look very similar to the Jesse Preston chick:

View attachment 275

You really can find them at Wal-Mart!

Not that I would necessarily recommend that as a hunting ground... but, you know... it can work...

View attachment 276



Right, yeah, the whole status thing.

She put a bunch of money into surgery + dresses provocatively so developed a huge following of thirsty dudes who will keep paying her until her wrinkles get too noticeable and her implants sag too low. Meanwhile leverages her status as a thirst trap with loads of thirsty followers to seem popular and get status guys with money to pay top dollar for a night with her (that's how all these chicks rack up their money. It's not from the peanuts their broke thirsty followers toss them. Nor their abortive fashion lines that never get off the ground because thirsty broke men -- their primary audience -- do not buy women's clothing).

But you're into that flashy status stuff, so it's alluring to you.

Which is cool.

We don't want to get crazy though and start thinking these girls have universal appeal, and that anyone who isn't tripping over himself desperate to shag a 35 y/o mouse-looking chick with fake tits and escort money is deep in the cope.



It's not the status seeker game or the flashy simulacrum girls these guys go for that causes the reaction.

It's the whole status-seeker attitude of "my girls are the best and everybody knows it and you all want them too."

That kind of thing will always trigger kneejerk reactions in people.

Status seekers think other people hate on them out of jealousy.

A lot of the time it's simply out of annoyance at the status seeker's typically status seeking ways, which he uses in place of him setting aside status to discuss these topics man to man without all the posturing.

Chase

Damn I got a chase value post. Gonna frame this.

I don't want to go quote by quote but my points of contention:

I don't think social circle guys and cold approach guys are different in the way community makes it so. SC was part of pickup since the beginning of time. Project Entourage, Adam Lyons, Braddock, Luke, Micheal are all old school pickup guys. Hell you could easily argue Project Hollywood was social circle game. Leveraged logistics. Every night a group party situation. Everybody does party pulls, nobody mostly does one on one dates. It's not any different than what Dan bilzerean did in his book the Setup when he figured out all this while cold approaching.

I think to separate "how to be a cool person with a lot of friends women are fighting over" and cold approach is kind of dangerous. I know that's not what you're trying to do but I feel a lot of cold approach people are trying to get laid as much as possible while being able to stay as total losers and see that as a form of achievement.

I think increasing your standing, your optics, your situation, your status should be encouraged at all times instead of being treated like a stupid crutch. I mean I don't see how get friends, have a good life with some standing is that different than caring about fundamentals.

Jesse Preston is hot as fuck. I saw her on Micheals story this week and she was an incredibly popular adult star making 7 figures based off her looks for a decade. That was my point. Not how she looks in a zoomed in picture or how old she is. My point was I have never approached her or had the opportunity. That was my point. I think nitpicking the spesific example is missing the point.

I think categorizing women getting plastic surgery as scorned women who finally have a shot to be beautiful is incredibly reductionist and doesn't match my experience. I see everyone and I mean everyone getting plastic surgery. Some of the coolest and most well raised girls I've met at least all had nose jobs and or fillers.

All of what I'm saying was this. Instead of hating these dudes and like oh my God they have status this and that.

Why not take 9 to 15 cool Instagram pictures. Set up a nice crib, organize some low effort events where you have social power, logistics and leverage. (Plus a much softer close if you're cold approaching). Get some female friends so they can wing you or introduce you to their friends. Or establish yourself in a scene like Latin dancing where there are plenty of women.

I mean... it's all so easily applicable. These dudes are just doing this on a different scale. I don't see how this at all contradicts with pickup or cold approach in the slightest.

 

[topcat]

I think to separate how to be a cool person with a lot of friends women fight over and cold approach is kind of dangerous. I know that's not what you're trying to do but I feel a lot of cold approach people are trying to get laid as much as possible while being able to stay as total losers and see that as a form of achievement.

lmao wow..

A lot of the time it's simply out of annoyance at the status seeker's typically status seeking ways, which he uses in place of him setting aside status to discuss these topics man to man without all the posturing.

indeed.

status bros gon’ status i guess..

 

[Don Giovanni]

There are trade-offs to everything in life. In this case, we are talking about a lifestyle requires a great deal of social circle maintenance and engagement. What that asks of someone varies depending on a number of factors, but it will definitely shape your lifestyle in ways that might not flow as well with other sorts of lifestyle choices (which again comes down to personal value.

Some potential trade off's I see are
-Having a higher profile and needing to manage ones public image VS Being low key and being able to fly under the radar in life (which frees up a lot of energy for other pursuits, and comes with many other benefits both in pick up and otherwise)
-Having a lifestyle that revolves around larger social groups which require a good deal of management VS Having a smaller but more consistent friend group/individual friendships that you can put all the energy into strengthening and deepening. Or for some players, few friends at all (as it might suit their personal lifestyle more)
-Having to deal with all sorts of politics that come with having larger social circles. This can also come with a good deal of drama and time spent resolving conflicts VS Not

There are many other trade-offs I am sure we could all come up with. Again, any trade comes with its advantages and drawbacks. We sacrifice one set of benefits for another, and in turn, have to deal with the challenges that come with those benefits. It is a risk/reward analysis every player must run, based on his set of personal values.

Sure, all of these things exist on a spectrum and are not either-or. We can build dynamic lifestyles and incorporate many different elements and angles. All of these things can be scaled to one degree or another. Like you are saying. You don't have to have these super lavish mansion parties with hundreds of people. You can just have a good ol' fashioned house party (I am actually throwing one of those this weekend, and it is going to be fire). The thing is though, like everything in life, the more you invest in something the more there is a return on your investment (granted you are investing wisely). So, yeah throwing two ragers every year can come with some benefits. But is it really all that better than having not had those parties? Are you going to make some cool new connections and have some solid new leads? Most likely. Are you going to have a flood of new women clamoring to be in your presence? Probably not. That is the thing with these status game dudes. Their Strategy only works at its most optimal when it is scaled up really large. The dam only breaks at a certain level. The benefits when scaled down plateau out pretty hard before the graph jumps up to its peak. This is precisely why the status player must keep pursuing and building status, and why if he loses status the fall is pretty hard (granted the player lacked fundamental game to begin with). Does this mean that status is not worth pursuing unless you are going to go big? Certainly not. There are plenty of reasons to develop that aspect of one's life. Does pursuing a more scaled-down Sartain-styled status game offer a great deal more benefits to the average player than not pursuing that angle? Well, I'd say that all comes down to the player, their skill set, and personal values. In and of it itself though, I wouldn't say that this approach is any more beneficial than other styles of game.

And this here is my gripe with these status guys. They often lay claim (or heavily insinuate) that their lifestyle and values are definitively peak. It is absurd. Do I admire and value aspects of their life. Sure. But hey I also admire and value Sadhus who literally hold their arm up for twelve years straight until it is a lifeless stump, all in the name of Krishna (who they believe to be the highest form of consciousness). Does this mean that I need to emulate them for my life, or that their life is the truest highest expression of living? On the flip side of my admiration, I find elements of their lives to be sad and inscrutable to my sensibilities. Though I am sure for some people the same can be said about my life

Yeah, agree with everything you wrote. And those 2 parties a year opened some doors for me.

 

[Skills]

@Chase exellent article about this:

Status vs. Comfort vs. Genes

There are three types of men: those who want status, those who want comfort, and those who want genes. Which type of woman you prefer depends on which type of man you are.

www.girlschase.com

Chase everything i agree with, but you left out, sexual seekers category of dudes... looking for women sexually open.... but in fairness may be a sub camp

 

[Protean]

I think to separate "how to be a cool person with a lot of friends women are fighting over" and cold approach is kind of dangerous. I know that's not what you're trying to do but I feel a lot of cold approach people are trying to get laid as much as possible while being able to stay as total losers and see that as a form of achievement.

I like how you drop this gem then later on accuse Chase of being reductionist with his take on plastic thirst traps lol

Just don't know why you can't accept that some of us aren't interested in maintaining an Insta, hosting events, and gaining a following as our preferred method of getting women. And you holding up Jesse Preston as the reward for all that effort doesn't exactly help either...

 

[YS.]

I like how you drop this gem then later on accuse Chase of being reductionist with his take on plastic thirst traps lol

Just don't know why you can't accept that some of us aren't interested in maintaining an Insta, hosting events, and gaining a following as our preferred method of getting women. And you holding up Jesse Preston as the reward for all that effort doesn't exactly help either...

You guys are interpreting this so uncharitably... I literally in the sentence you've quoted said "I know that's not what you're trying to".

My goal was not to be contentious or combative in the slightest, I don't understand the defensiveness. We can agree to disagree, you know?

It is my belief that (you see, this is called a qualifier, not wisdom from bible, just what I think) it's not shameful to go to the gym, build a good life, have good friends, interact socially, get a good job, get good clothes, fix your posture, fix your voice, fix your projection. These should be encouraged, not shunned. I don't see how this is so divisive. This is probably the most cookie cutter thing I've ever written on these forums.

I guess I worded it badly but I think that language also cuts through the heart of the issue.

I fully can accept everything you wrote and I do accept some people aren't interested in these things. My original problem was simply how defensive people were getting to people like Mike whenever they come up. If you can't see how emotional people get about it I don't know what to tell you. Read ANY topic about Dan B or Mike. It quickly becomes a hate-fest.

I was just saying instead of hating we can take things to make us better. I thought that was the whole point of all this. If you don't want to do that, cool, but I don't see how it's harmful to suggest some might. Nothing I've written was dogma and I literally qualified every statement I made with "I think" instead of you literally putting words into my mouth and just straw-manning my argument.

To each his own.

lmao wow..

indeed.

status bros gon’ status i guess..

I find it really difficult, (and I'm trying, really am) that people can't differentiate being a total (operative word) loser = having nothing going on in your life is a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT than having status.

When someone doesn't have any friends and you go, "hey man maybe go to some events and make some friends" and then you jump OH NO STATUS BRO FORCING HOW GOOD HE IS, nah man. Nah. You don't get it. You don't.

I told people to get 9-15 nice pictures and maybe join a cool thing, is this what status means to you? Jesus. I'm not saying organize the fucking Maxim party. How is this so controversial?

 

[topcat]

You guys are interpreting this so uncharitably... I literally in the sentence you've quoted said "I know that's not what you're trying to".

My goal was not to be contentious or combative in the slightest, I don't understand the defensiveness. We can agree to disagree, you know?

It is my belief that (you see, this is called a qualifier, not wisdom from bible, just what I think) it's not shameful to go to the gym, build a good life, have good friends, interact socially, get a good job, get good clothes, fix your posture, fix your voice, fix your projection. These should be encouraged, not shunned. I don't see how this is so divisive. This is probably the most cookie cutter thing I've ever written on these forums.

I guess I worded it badly but I think that language also cuts through the heart of the issue.

I fully can accept everything you wrote and I do accept some people aren't interested in these things. My original problem was simply how defensive people were getting to people like Mike whenever they come up. If you can't see how emotional people get about it I don't know what to tell you. Read ANY topic about Dan B or Mike. It quickly becomes a hate-fest.

I was just saying instead of hating we can take things to make us better. I thought that was the whole point of all this. If you don't want to do that, cool, but I don't see how it's harmful to suggest some might. Nothing I've written was dogma and I literally qualified every statement I made with "I think" instead of you literally putting words into my mouth and just straw-manning my argument.

To each his own.

Nah don’t run, you literally said I feel a lot of cold approach people are trying to get laid as much as possible while being able to stay as total losers and see that as a form of achievement.

Said nothing of fundamentals nor alluded to it. Based on the context of all you said before and after that it’s easy to extrapolate that you meant those who reject status games are losers.

I won’t even hold my punches by saying i think those who place status above all else and actively chase it are brainwashed drones..

 

[StrayDog]

It is my belief that (you see, this is called a qualifier, not wisdom from bible, just what I think) it's not shameful to go to the gym, build a good life, have good friends, interact socially, get a good job, get good clothes, fix your posture, fix your voice, fix your projection. These should be encouraged, not shunned. I don't see how this is so divisive. This is probably the most cookie cutter thing I've ever written on these forums.

I don't have a horse in the race and am really just here to discuss ideas around seducing women. Can you help me understand the correlation between everything you outlined here and status-based social circle game that Mickael Sartain is talking about? Is it not possible to have and developed all of those qualities, and meet women other ways than having to develop an outward-facing (image-based) public persona, organize and throw events, manage large social circles, and so on. I know I am relatively new to the boards, but I have not personally witnessed anyone on here shaming or discouraging going to the gym, building a good life, having good friends, interacting socially, getting a good job, getting good clothes, fixing your posture, your voice, your projection. Is it your belief that if a man chooses to forgo a status-based sort of lifestyle he is, in turn, shunning these other qualities you mentioned?

Your post's (to me) seemed to heavily imply the following
1: to chose not to engage with status based game is like turning away from some definitively higher form of game

They are the north star

2: That if one chooses to develop other modes of game instead he is turning away from this beacon of truth (Dan Bilzillionairlion), and in turn has to develop faulty mental models (cope) to deal with his cognitive dissonance. That one who chooses to game another way (other than north star) is mired in defensiveness rather than a difference in values

I don't know why there is so much coping going on whenever Dan B. or Micheal comes up in these forums. Just learn from them there is so much content.

this also implies to me that perhaps you believe that should a man choose to follow a different compass than those that point magnetic north, he very well could be headed in a very bad direction. As evidenced by this

YS. said:
I think to separate how to be a cool person with a lot of friends women fight over and cold approach is kind of dangerous. I know that's not what you're trying to do but I feel a lot of cold approach people are trying to get laid as much as possible while being able to stay as total losers and see that as a form of achievement.

Perhaps you didn't intend to come off this way, but that's definitely how it read to me (and apparently similarly for other guys here). First, let's be clear none of this is personal. Just dudes talking shop and figuring out each our own paths. From your last post, it sounds like you feel similarly. So maybe this is a good moment to offer clarity on these statements that how to lead others to believe that maybe you don't value or respect their approach to the game. I can understand wanting to dismiss their interpretation as nearly defensive, but I am not sure that stance will help others to understand exactly where you are coming from. I understand I am relatively new here and you have been around quite a while longer. I respect that there is a history here I don't fully understand. I just thought I would offer my perspective, as maybe it might help with this whole discussion.

 

[YS.]

Nah don’t run, you literally said I feel a lot of cold approach people are trying to get laid as much as possible while being able to stay as total losers and see that as a form of achievement.

Said nothing of fundamentals nor alluded to it. Based on the context of all you said before and after that it’s easy to extrapolate that you meant those who reject status games are losers.

I won’t even hold my punches by saying i think those who place status above all else and actively chase it are brainwashed drones..

Hey man.

Either you can't read or you just want to fight for no reason when I'm trying to deescalate.

It's LITERALLY in the fucking next paragraph of the post you've quoted I've said:

I mean I don't see how get friends, have a good life with some standing is that different than caring about fundamentals.

Jesus Christ.

Please do learn to read.

And be more respectful.

I really don't enjoy your tone.

Nothing I've said, and I mean FUCKING NOTHING was about status or status game. You can make straw-mans out of things and read into shit however you want. The original posts talks about "social circle" never even once mentions "status".

All I've said was something there guys were doing are working really well and we could learn from it.

That was the point of the OP and all the following post.

This is LITERALLY how I ended it:

Why not take 9 to 15 cool Instagram pictures. Set up a nice crib, organize some low effort events where you have social power, logistics and leverage. (Plus a much softer close if you're cold approaching). Get some female friends so they can wing you or introduce you to their friends. Or establish yourself in a scene like Latin dancing where there are plenty of women.

Is this status to you? Really? Honestly? Get some cool pics, have a decent place, do a dinner party and have some friends. For fucks sake man. No wonder you got offended so much if you think this advice is advocating for status.

I know my intention more than you do. Trust me.

 

[YS.]

I don't have a horse in the race and am really just here to discuss ideas around seducing women. Can you help me understand the correlation between everything you outlined here and status-based social circle game that Mickael Sartain is talking about? Is it not possible to have and developed all of those qualities, and meet women other ways than having to develop an outward-facing (image-based) public persona, organize and throw events, manage large social circles, and so on. I know I am relatively new to the boards, but I have not personally witnessed anyone on here shaming or discouraging going to the gym, building a good life, having good friends, interacting socially, getting a good job, getting good clothes, fixing your posture, your voice, your projection. Is it your belief that if a man chooses to forgo a status-based sort of lifestyle he is, in turn, shunning these other qualities you mentioned?

1: to chose not to engage with status based game is like turning away from some definitively higher form of game

2: That if one chooses to develop other modes of game instead he is turning away from this beacon of truth (Dan Bilzillionairlion), and in turn has to develop faulty mental models (cope) to deal with his cognitive dissonance. That one who chooses to game another way (other than north star) is mired in defensiveness rather than a difference in values

this also implies to me that perhaps you believe that should a man choose to follow a different compass than those that point magnetic north, he very well could be headed in a very bad direction. As evidenced by this


Perhaps you didn't intend to come off this way, but that's definitely how it read to me (and apparently similarly for other guys here). First, let's be clear none of this is personal. Just dudes talking shop and figuring out each our own paths. From your last post, it sounds like you feel similarly. So maybe this is a good moment to offer clarity on these statements that how to lead others to believe that maybe you don't value or respect their approach to the game. I can understand wanting to dismiss their interpretation as nearly defensive, but I am not sure that stance will help others to understand exactly where you are coming from. I understand I am relatively new here and you have been around quite a while longer. I respect that there is a history here I don't fully understand. I just thought I would offer my perspective, as maybe it might help with this whole discussion.

Hey StrayDog, I really liked the post you had above discussing the trade offs. It was fair and good. You also have a good way of communicating.

I'm not Mike, I'm not gonna argue for him. All I was saying was these guys had great results with women and they're crushing harder than anyone I know. (Personal opinion, you can disagree.) and there could be things to learn and implement. Reading the Setup was eye opening for me.

If I were Mike, what I would assume he would say is, (for the reading challenged, please do read this qualifier) all game is status game. How you're conveying status changes. The picture he posts on IG to show his value isn't a different mechanism than you approaching a women with breaking rapport voice, teasing her, not being affected by her, leading her, etc. You're not doing anything different, just your methods of communicating your status to the girl is different. That's what he means by Status is status is status. The status you show on instagram is no different than what the small town girl who you approached was attracted to. He clearly, directly states his position on this on the linked podcast.

I don't know how fully I subscribe to that but that's what I gathered from the listening. There is a lot of bad faith arguments going on here so this is probably gonna be quoted and will be interpreted as something I say, defend and subscribe but yeah... You seem like a good faith guy.

I'm being pigeon holed into defending Micheal or advocating for status game which I've never done. I referred MANY people. Braddock, Adam Lyons, original Project Hollywood, etc. I always used the word social circle. Most of these "build a life" based approaches had nothing to with flashiness and status. In his book The Setup, Dan B. explains how he first started getting crazy results from cold approach was instead of trying to hit a home run or strike out, him and his friends would just invite girls to a house party and actually go for it on their own terms. People who wouldn't get laid in a million years started getting laid easily. I think there are a lot of lessons here to learn and this shit has fucking nothing to do with status. Fuck man, I'm not saying everyone should be Micheal. Just there is value in what they're doing and they're getting great results (in my humble fucking opinion, the frustration is not with you StrayDog).

I believe a lot of people are forgoing how to be human, not status. I have known so many people who have no friends, no job, no hobbies, no life and see this as a virtue. I don't believe having friends is status. The fact that I'm having to defend this is insane. Look at all my advice, hey maybe take 9-15 pics, get some friends, organize a dinner party and join a cool event. WOW BRO THE STATUS. Jesus man...

Fair point on the true north comments. I believe they are, I do, but it is more of an opinion stated as fact when everything else I've written stated as an opinion. My bad. I do believe that, don't get me wrong and I think to divide having a good life and a good IG as a separate form as game like "status game" is nothing short of destructive and toxic. The division is so meaningless. You can have an IG rescuing dogs man, you don't need to post Lambos, I don't understand why this obsessive connection to status coming from.

And connecting all the good things of building the life with all the bad things you hate about these people and what they're doing and mixing them... I mean. I think you can see where I'm going. It's just faulty, self serving logic.

 

[topcat]

Hey man.

Either you can't read or you just want to fight for no reason when I'm trying to deescalate.

It's LITERALLY in the fucking next paragraph of the post you've quoted I've said:

I mean I don't see how get friends, have a good life with some standing is that different than caring about fundamentals.

Jesus Christ.

Please do learn to read.

And be more respectful.

I really don't enjoy your tone.

Nothing I've said, and I mean FUCKING NOTHING was about status or status game. You can make straw-mans out of things and read into shit however you want. The original posts talks about "social circle" never even once mentions "status".

All I've said was something there guys were doing are working really well and we could learn from it.

That was the point of the OP and all the following post.

This is LITERALLY how I ended it:

Why not take 9 to 15 cool Instagram pictures. Set up a nice crib, organize some low effort events where you have social power, logistics and leverage. (Plus a much softer close if you're cold approaching). Get some female friends so they can wing you or introduce you to their friends. Or establish yourself in a scene like Latin dancing where there are plenty of women.

Is this status to you? Really? Honestly? Get some cool pics, have a decent place, do a dinner party and have some friends. For fucks sake man. No wonder you got offended so much if you think this advice is advocating for status.

I know my intention more than you do. Trust me.

Yo i hear you.

Where we clash heads, and where my own extremism shows face is that i feel there’s a segment of seducers (me included) who really don’t give two hoots about socializing or being the best in the group. Fuck a dinner a party, and instagram?? Why would i go out of my way to curate pictures for strangers i don’t care about? Those that know me know me in person. Or maintain a social group for the purpose of getting laid? Totally unnecessary and brings more hassle than it’s worth. Sure it might work for some, i just think it’s disingenuous to prescribe those who choose not to as ‘losers’ who are ‘coping’.

It was the northstar comment that got me heated tbf..

 

[YS.]

Yo i hear you.

Where we clash heads, and where my own extremism shows face is that i feel there’s a segment of seducers (me included) who really don’t give two hoots about socializing or being the best in the group. Fuck a dinner a party, and instagram?? Why would i go out of my way to curate pictures for strangers i don’t care about? Those that know me know me in person. Or maintain a social group for the purpose of getting laid? Totally unnecessary and brings more hassle than it’s worth. Sure it might work for some, i just think it’s disingenuous to prescribe those who choose not to as ‘losers’ who are ‘coping’.

It was the northstar comment that got me heated tbf..

Fair play.

I re-read the post, it was probably the only comment I'm not proud of as I've said to the other guy. I should've framed it as my opinion. I just think their results are self evident and that was what I meant as the north star not their lifestyle or methods or even their choice of women. But yeah...

I think Warren Buffett is the north star of money making, don't want to run an investment firm any time soon or advocating that anyone should. Hope that makes sense.

Again, I think people are making connections where there are none and taking offense when none should be taken.

Initially you were assuming I meant (correct me if I'm wrong), not flashing lambos on ig with models = being a total loser who's coping. Just very uncharitable, in my opinion. I meant; if your breath stinks, if you're fat, if you live with your family, if you don't earn money, if you don't have any friends, if you don't have anything going on, you shouldn't be proud of that. This is different than choosing a loner lifestyle. But I bet as a loner; you're probably not obese, you have some friends, even if they are PU friends, you most likely got some decent logistics, you most likely earn money; ie: NOT A TOTAL LOSER. A loner and a total loser are worlds apart. I was a total loser, many people were, I was just saying there is no virtue in that. Get better.

Literally the advice Neil Strauss gives was to have something going on every day of the week when teaching the fucking Mystery Method. I feel nothing I'm saying is contentious or new.

I think a lot of people have trigger points around this issue.

 

[StrayDog]

Hey StrayDog, I really liked the post you had above discussing the trade offs. It was fair and good. You also have a good way of communicating.

I'm not Mike, I'm not gonna argue for him. All I was saying was these guys had great results with women and they're crushing harder than anyone I know. (Personal opinion, you can disagree.) and there could be things to learn and implement. Reading the Setup was eye opening for me.

If I were Mike, what I would assume he would say is, (for the reading challenged, please do read this qualifier) all game is status game. How you're conveying status changes. The picture he posts on IG to show his value isn't a different mechanism than you approaching a women with breaking rapport voice, teasing her, not being affected by her, leading her, etc. You're not doing anything different, just your methods of communicating your status to the girl is different. That's what he means by Status is status is status. The status you show on instagram is no different than what the small town girl who you approached was attracted to. He clearly, directly states his position on this on the linked podcast.

I don't know how fully I subscribe to that but that's what I gathered from the listening. There is a lot of bad faith arguments going on here so this is probably gonna be quoted and will be interpreted as something I say, defend and subscribe but yeah... You seem like a good faith guy.

I'm being pigeon holed into defending Micheal or advocating for status game which I've never done. I referred MANY people. Braddock, Adam Lyons, original Project Hollywood, etc. I always used the word social circle. Most of these "build a life" based approaches had nothing to with flashiness and status. In his book The Setup, Dan B. explains how he first started getting crazy results from cold approach was instead of trying to hit a home run or strike out, him and his friends would just invite girls to a house party and actually go for it on their own terms. People who wouldn't get laid in a million years started getting laid easily. I think there are a lot of lessons here to learn and this shit has fucking nothing to do with status. Fuck man, I'm not saying everyone should be Micheal. Just there is value in what they're doing and they're getting great results (in my humble fucking opinion, the frustration is not with you StrayDog).

I believe a lot of people are forgoing how to be human, not status. I have known so many people who have no friends, no job, no hobbies, no life and see this as a virtue. I don't believe having friends is status. The fact that I'm having to defend this is insane. Look at all my advice, hey maybe take 9-15 pics, get some friends, organize a dinner party and join a cool event. WOW BRO THE STATUS. Jesus man...

Fair point on the true north comments. I believe they are, I do, but it is more of an opinion stated as fact when everything else I've written stated as an opinion. My bad. I do believe that, don't get me wrong and I think to divide having a good life and a good IG as a separate form as game like "status game" is nothing short of destructive and toxic. The division is so meaningless. You can have an IG rescuing dogs man, you don't need to post Lambos, I don't understand why this obsessive connection to status coming from. I have never ever met anyone who doesn't have an IG other than fucking pickup people. (Only this part will be quoted and replied to, watch.) I think you guys don't realize how weird and unusual it is.

And connecting all the good things of building the life with all the bad things you hate about these people and what they're doing and mixing them... I mean. I think you can see where I'm going. It's just faulty, self serving logic.

I think I have a somewhat clearer sense of where you are coming from on this (though there is definitely a lot to chew on). Your take on Michael offers some strong meta-narratives around status and pick up. I can see the argument that everything is status to a degree, but I am not sure that that necessarily denotes that having the level of status (which I personally find to be bloated. To each their own) that Michael has is the peak of game, as again (I've stated before) It all comes down to what one wants out of life (and game). I do personally tend to see basic social circle game and what Michael is doing as distinctively different (though seemingly similar). It's like saying hardcore industrial music is the same as acoustic folk. It is all music after all. But the approach to producing the music is very different, and the expression embodies an entirely different set of values.

As for losers, I tend to see losers simply as people who have resigned themselves to the mercy of outside forces, failing to strive for a life where their own values match up with the reality of daily living (even if one knows it will never quite be as we imagined it). This is a dynamic sort of interplay that can ultimately only be determined by the individual (Keeping in mind of course that we don't live in a vacuum). I think this is where a lot of guys feel turned off by the culture built around status, is that the image projected from that culture tends to come with a lot of baggage that purports it to be the only game to be played, and that one is not winning at life if they are not playing that game.

That being said, I got to go put some final touches on this banger house party I am having (simply because I enjoy the process). Have a solid weekend, gents