More derailing by BigPapa

BigPapa

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Bah. What we are talking about here is not seniors generally being bad coaches, it is seniors being bad coaches for people with learning disabilities. You know, in school the best teachers for normal kids are not the best teachers for kids with various learning disabilities or problematic behavior. These are even often separated so that the problematic kids will not destroy the learning environment for the normal kids, which really serves nobody as the curriculum for the normal kids will not be internalized by the problematic kids anyway. You see exactly the same dynamic here.

You are a perfect example of this, you are still bitching about race after being 6 years on this forum and complain about the management and seniors, despite you have been treated very leniently (you are still here and some people still give you advice). Also you argue and complain about lacking respect when people point out the actions you need to do in order to progress.

I think that you are missing out most of what OhPry is saying , but it is fine , it is just you being you again :)

Yes , but when you are focused on building value for such a long time , and already have for some time some sort of a routine that is yielding constant results , it is kinda difficult to pinpoint on your own what exactly is not working :)
Many thanks for helping me to pinpoint what was washy washy @Razorjack
I am sure I could talk about the exact same topics without getting any kind of auto-rejection, in fact I have also funny stories from PU-trips to places like Bulgaria.

This is not about value or talking topics, it is probably more about subcommunications and understanding target demographics.

Such things are hard to debug over written communications, but I believe impro-theatre workshops or acting lessons would remedy it. Also studying what different demographics like and dislike.
@Carousel

You could be right and I could be totally off base, just I recognized a lot of the reactions he was getting from my own experience.

You just need to keep in mind that girls may perceive a totally different vibe from you than him or me, so that you've never experienced the same issues.
It took me the longest time to fix my issues, because no one on mASF could understand how a girl could have sex with you but didn't want a relationship further down the road. Maybe it's a very rare problem, who knows.

Other than that, totally agree that it's very difficult to debug this over written words on a forum, without seeing the interactions in person. Unfortunately that is all we have to go by and we are dependent on the person describing their problems gives us all the relevant detail. It does happen that guys (including myself) unintentionally leave out some vital detail.

Based on this back and forth with one of the most senior member on the board , more sensitive guys could say that you are arguing and saying that he is not right , even though you knew exactly who he was and clearly not showing too much respect & just thrashing the thread .

The truth is that RJ left because the forum became polarized and toxic , mainly due to some senior members going Al Qaida when people were not agreeing with their views.

Also do not forget that the whole "new school" vs "old school" debate started because some senior members were knifing other senior members over semantics . Let's never forget that ever ! :)

Demographics will always play a role in communication.

However, your tone of voice, pausing, pace of speech, energy levels and enthusiasm. . . have remarkably strong effects on communication. You can vary each of these behaviors I've listed here. . . while saying the exact same things. And get vastly different effects and results when seducing women.

Learn the fundamentals of delivery which I mentioned above. Calibrate by making subtle or large tweaks in your language and topic choices. . . based on the frames you want to set and various demographics. Then you will be well on your way towards using verbal game to create compliance.

You replied this to one the lower ranks member when he was saying that he does not get the same results as you when using your verbal game .

Which is a super smart explanation , and totally agree with it . But now we also have the example of verbal game used by Hector in the article written by Chase about RJ leaving the forum ( hopefully it will not be permanent ) where basically he was saying in the first few lines that he wants to bang the girl and that it works .


It means that Hectors verbal game is better than yours , the same , worst ?

Well the truth is that communication is mainly non verbal , only 7% of the communication represents actually spoken words , while 93 % is about body language , voice & tone.

So to some extent you can say whatever you want to say (spoken words) , and guess what you will get the same results :)

My opinion is that verbal game (what you say) is quite a personal thing and a reflection of ones personality , and that it does not really matter what you actually say as long as your non verbal communication is rock solid :)

Now , coming back to OhPry , my personal opinion is that you do not really relate with what he said , because mainly you never really experienced what he is talking about , and of course is difficult to communicate with someone that you do not really relate to .

I also hope that you understand that I am trying to be super diplomat , and said only 20 % of what I am thinking so we do not derail the thread again .

Would kindly appreciate if you would not develop my post further , unless I am missing something ( but kinda fail to see what that would be though )
 

flatron

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Well the truth is that communication is mainly non verbal , only 7% of the communication represents actually spoken words , while 93 % is about body language , voice & tone.

So to some extent you can say whatever you want to say (spoken words) , and guess what you will get the same results :)

Chase has it right:

Chase:
''Attraction is not about what you say. It's about who you are and how you come across''

I think somewhere along the line, people have started to associate 'advanced game' with lots of odd sounding verbals (in an attempt to brainwash the girl into being attracted) that kind of does more harm than good. If you got her her in bed, she was likely attracted the second she saw you. If what you are saying makes you cringe, it's probably not good game. And yes, too a certain point, that's determined by ones personality
 

BigPapa

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Chase has it right:

Chase:
''Attraction is not about what you say. It's about who you are and how you come across''

I think somewhere along the line, people have started to associate 'advanced game' with lots of odd sounding verbals (in an attempt to brainwash the girl into being attracted) that kind of does more harm than good. If you got her her in bed, she was likely attracted the second she saw you. If what you are saying makes you cringe, it's probably not good game. And yes, too a certain point, that's determined by ones personality

As you can see , 1 of the mods and some of the elders would rather move my post from the initial thread so they can cover up and maintain their aura of advanced seducers :)

Dunno , you look kinda weak & not really knowing what you are talking about when you start censoring people like they do in North Korea , when people are just pinpointing the truth as it is actually .

Long live the Communist Party !
 

ZacAdam

Cro-Magnon Man
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BigPapa,

Can you convince me that you won't introduce another analogy without an objective if you get hit another roadblock?

Then I can chip in what I think.

Because Carousel noted this in the previous post. I have also noted this when I responded and you introduce another analogy.

Life doesn't work that way man. You want respect? You have to earn it. Don't care about respect but want truth?

The thing is truth is universal. It doesn't shy from the argument even if it doesn't fit. It can work with any argument. See my conversations with Chase from 2012 all the way till now. The conversation never shys away from the very essence of 2 conflicting point of view from 2 different person from different walks of life.

And I ask him all the hardest questions on Girlschase.

The thing is when I point you your problem, you ignore it. You introduce another variable.

Why waste time responding to your post.

I have other great people who won't shy away completely and won't hide behind an analogy while trying to still maintain that frame for no reason other than ego.
 

Velasco

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So to some extent you can say whatever you want to say (spoken words) , and guess what you will get the same results :)

My opinion is that verbal game (what you say) is quite a personal thing and a reflection of ones personality , and that it does not really matter what you actually say as long as your non verbal communication is rock solid
You can lose girls through your personal views (field experience.. lol). Say if you talk shit about gay people in front of her on the first night you meet her, and shes one of those pro-gay chicks she will get offended and reject you for that (if your views come out later in the relationship (after like 2 bangs) then she will be more willing to look past your views because shes already invested in the relationship (field experience as I say quite racist things to girls that aren't racist).
 
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BigPapa

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You can lose girls through your personal views (field experience.. lol). Say if you talk shit about gay people in front of her on the first night you meet her, and shes one of those pro-gay chicks she will get offended and reject you for that (if your views come out later in the relationship (after like 2 bangs) then she will be more willing to look past your views because shes already invested in the relationship (field experience as I say quite racist things to girls aren't racist).

Yes , totally agree . It is better to be politically correct , and not say things that might trigger negative emotions at first .

Actually in general I think is better not to talk about things were people are quite invested in their opinions like : politics , militating for gay rights , things that the state should do or not , etc . It is very unlikely they will let go of their views no matter how much people are invested in you ( girls , friends , coworkers, etc ) :)
 

Teevster

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It means that Hectors verbal game is better than yours , the same , worst ?

Knowing Hector personally, and knowing Bacchus too, comparing them is just weird. Hector and Bacchus (and Hector and I for that matter) are using totally different methods.
 

Teevster

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Well the truth is that communication is mainly non verbal , only 7% of the communication represents actually spoken words , while 93 % is about body language , voice & tone.

So to some extent you can say whatever you want to say (spoken words) , and guess what you will get the same results

Verbal content matters MUCH more than 7%. That's an obvious fact. That 7/93 thing is probably one of the most fucked up theories in modern social psychology. It is questionable, and the research behind it too. It has been critized quite a bit, but for some reason, this statement have been overly popularized.
 

Teevster

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Chase has it right:

Chase:
''Attraction is not about what you say. It's about who you are and how you come across''

I think somewhere along the line, people have started to associate 'advanced game' with lots of odd sounding verbals (in an attempt to brainwash the girl into being attracted) that kind of does more harm than good. If you got her her in bed, she was likely attracted the second she saw you. If what you are saying makes you cringe, it's probably not good game. And yes, too a certain point, that's determined by ones personality

Now that's a very good way to misinterpret and put what Chase said totally out of context....
 

BigPapa

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Verbal content matters MUCH more than 7%. That's an obvious fact. That 7/93 thing is probably one of the most fucked up theories in modern social psychology. It is questionable, and the research behind it too. It has been critized quite a bit, but for some reason, this statement have been overly popularized.

"The formula was created for a specific context—when the nonverbal channel and the verbal channel are incongruent (not matching). As he writes in his book Nonverbal Communication: "When there are inconsistencies between attitudes communicated verbally and posturally, the postural component should dominate in determining the total attitude that is inferred."


So should you still quote the 55/38/7 percentage at the next dinner party to show your nonverbal communication knowledge? Should you include an asterisk? Well, when I mention the 55/38/7 numbers, I clearly state that this applies to certain situations and, more importantly, should not be used as a deciding factor to try and understand the situation. A proper analysis needs to occur to fully grasp what the person's current emotions are at that moment."

The truth is that everyone agrees that non verbal communication is weighted more than the verbal one . And more or less it is in line with what people here are saying too. If it is only 7 , or 10 or 15 in that particular case , it does not really matter , non verbal communication is still king :)
 

Teevster

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"The formula was created for a specific context—when the nonverbal channel and the verbal channel are incongruent (not matching). As he writes in his book Nonverbal Communication: "When there are inconsistencies between attitudes communicated verbally and posturally, the postural component should dominate in determining the total attitude that is inferred."

I am aware of that. When incongruence occurs, non-verbal signals matters more than verbal content. I can buy that.. However, how they came to their number (7 and 93%) is methodlogically just off.



The truth is that everyone agrees that non verbal communication is weighted more than the verbal one . And more or less it is in line with what people here are saying too. If it is only 7 , or 10 or 15 in that particular case , it does not really matter , non verbal communication is still king

No, they don't.

---

I for instance believe verbal content matters more, that if the content is actually means to involve something - i.e. not just fluff.

Deliver content-less words with good delivery is less powerful than tons of content delivered with poor delivery (to a certain extent).

However, in suspicion of incongruence, I would agree that non-verbal communication would matter more, just as mentioned above.


I wonder what a linguist would say or react to a guy saying verbal content does not matter (not saying you did, but many guys on forums have advocated that "what you say does not matter").
 

BigPapa

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I am aware of that. When incongruence occurs, non-verbal signals matters more than verbal content. I can buy that.. However, how they came to their number (7 and 93%) is methodlogically just off.





No, they don't.

---

I for instance believe verbal content matters more, that if the content is actually means to involve something - i.e. not just fluff.

Deliver content-less words with good delivery is less powerful than tons of content delivered with poor delivery (to a certain extent).

However, in suspicion of incongruence, I would agree that non-verbal communication would matter more, just as mentioned above.


I wonder what a linguist would say or react to a guy saying verbal content does not matter (not saying you did, but many guys on forums have advocated that "what you say does not matter").

We agree again then as I mentioned that it does not really matter what you say till some extent :)

To by some extent , I meant that it still has to be relevant , not some crazy things coming off your ass ;)
 

Velasco

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Flatron is talking about "verbals" in the context of attraction. As in you cant create attraction with verbals if it's not there. Cause that's all based on fundamentals/nonverbals (looks, vibe, style).

It doesnt matter what you open with if she digs your looks, vibe and style. "Sup guys?" Vs "sup guys" coming from a less attractive man, with bad vibe/style.

However beyond that, what you communicate verbally is crucial towards increasing the % of you getting what you want out of the interaction (Frames/reframes vs no frames (if you find a certain poster's way of setting a sexual frame cringe as fuck then dont set the frame his way. Simple :) Doesnt mean you shouldn't talk about sex because verbals matter so very little into getting what you want). So that 7% number is extremely inaccurate :)
 
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BigPapa

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Also tell your boy carousel to move (and rename it to something more relevant) this thread to another part of the forum , as the discussion is kinda epic and I am sure that this will help other members of the forum :)
 

BigPapa

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Flatron is talking about "verbals" in the context of attraction. As in you cant create attraction with verbals if it's not there. Cause that's all based on fundamentals/nonverbals (looks, vibe, style).

It doesnt matter what you open with if she digs your looks, vibe and style. "Sup guys?" Vs "sup guys" coming from a less attractive man, with bad vibe/style.

However beyond that, what you communicate verbally is crucial towards increasing the % of you getting what you want out of the interaction (Frames/reframes vs no frames). So that 7% number is extremely inaccurate :)

I do not know if framing / reframing/ no framing etc is actually part of the verbal game itself , from my point of view is more a tactic / strategy to achieve your objective . More or less the delivery of the tactic/strategy itself I consider as verbal game.

When I am referring to verbal game is more about what you say that goes hand in hand with the tactic or strategy .

Like for example , communicating in a simpler manner like "hey I think you are cute" or communicating in a more pretentions manner let's say like " when i look at you , i remember my first crush in kindergarten and she had the same blue eyes like you do , and it felt like the sea is reflecting in her eyes " .

Dunno if you understand what I am referring to ...
 

Skills

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I was part of the none verbal, don't talk, over 5 years preaching that, the reason why in my case verbals was hurting due to a strong latin accent so women could not understand me and i would lose them, so adapted to my handicap and seduced none verbally and with texting...

As my accent became human through the years, i incorporated verbals, and i am here to tell you verbals are extremely important if done right, (specially the second generation verbals)

Again the key word is if done right cause it gives you more CONTROL OF THE INTERACTION....


Those studies are not base on verbal communication done right, they are base of common verbal communication.... if done right i would say more than 50% cause again gives more control over the interaction...
 

Velasco

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More or less the delivery of the tactic/strategy itself I consider as verbal game.

Yes they work in tandem.

Say if a girl says, "everyone here is so fucking annoying here. I fucked one guy and now everybody thinks I'm a slut. I hate it"

You say "they are just fucking jealous. Why do you care what jealous people think? All they do is judge anyone who doesnt fit into the socially conditioned role of how you are supposed to act. Or they secretly envy you for doing the thing they dont have the courage to do themselves"

Vs you say, "who'd you fuck? I thought you said you weren't going to fuck anybody from work?"

What are the frames I am communicating verbally+non verbally behind both those statements. Can you still tell me verbal is only 7% important?
 

Skills

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That is the smartest thing you said since you joined the board , at least you will not be able to move posts & threads based on your liking :)

this shows ^ lack of calibration and disrespect... This is why people give you shit! Even if you were right, total lack of calibration, which is one of the issues you are having according to you and your examples in some seductions...
 
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