My genuine and extreme sadness of guys going over red pill movements

[Skills]

I just came from the gym and i heard sooo much cringe that i decided to go ahead and make this post. First, i am going to start by saying that i follow and will still follow guys like rollo tomassi, and Dan campbell etc... aka the so call red pill movement guys... But skills why are you such a hypocrite? good question, well i can follow and take the somewhat entertainment, lifestyle advice and the every once in blue moon insight and be ok with it since not only do i have tons of life experiences, but i also possess tons of critical thinking..... So what is my beef and complain.... Well if i am objective and not looking at this from a veterans' eyes, but from a lost person looking for guidance, their advice is excrement when it comes to seduction and will set back guys sooo much when it comes to seduction, that they make Justin wayne look like a god in comparison (of course i am being sarcastic)....

The thing is not only are they popular and taking over what once was our market of dudes that used to be in the community. They look, act and say things with certainty, in a way they seem legit and in a way that seems that they know what they are talking about... However, most of the seudoscience, nitpicking, and fox news like stereotyping of the women for being women is just ridiculous, counter productive and tons of kj, FROM GUYS THAT ARE NOT IN THE FIELD,. I really don't understand why a dude that has been married for 20 years, had less than 50 lay count is such an authority on seduction (believe it or not i still do recommend his first book, just to be aware of things like getting zero out etc.. it is helpful).... With that being said they are just going too far. Plus, I am one of the believe that it does not matter if you lay 8,000 women like fidel castro did, if you are not seducing at the present time or going out seducing, you have 0 business giving seduction advice. See this is why i respect a guy like pure evil, when he is in a relationship and not out in the field, he pretty much, refrain from giving advise.

Basically some of the advice revolves around "be the best man you can be" crap.... Or ridiculous backward rationalizations of women worst tendencies towards guys that allow it to happen, not because women are so evil, but the reason is guys are so lame. I have said this for years women will treat you how you allow them to treat you, and don't we all do that...

here are some of the most ridiculous retarded shit i heard backward rationalizing:

-why she did not post a pic with you on instagram
- open relationship is for cucks
-she stop fucking you in the ass cause now she is losing attraction and she does not want to submit
-why are you worry about women, worry about being the best you can be.
-if you happen to get a vasectomy you are cuck.

it is a cringe paranoia central.

it goes on and on and on and on and on...

This video summarizes the best, what is the biggest problem:

I just hope we grab that audience and somewhat and at least bring them here before it is too late. They can still get stuff from them but also get seducers points of view of things... if not most of those dudes will be fucked beyond repair.... In the former nextasf couple of those dudes pop up every once in a blue moon, most guys could see they were fucked in some cases too far gone to the deep end... The saddest part is former seducers now jumping on the bandwagon peddling that crap with a straight face, not to mention any names.

 

[Carousel]

Thanks a lot for the video! I have formulated this myself recently, but I did not know that it had a name.

 

[trashKENNUT]

The key is to be as honest and nuance as possible.

We don't win people over by calling them "sick", or " weird".

That shit doesn't work anymore. Like literally. It works at surface level but if one provides value, it's common to see Jesus gets thrown out of the window.

Every group of people wants their problem solve. And surely this group of people want something too.

 

[Tank]

Some of the general life advice is valuable and important, such as focusing on your mission and priorities above women, making sure to keep your overall life success at a high level, and never getting married.

The main two problems I see are:
1) touting personal right wing ideology as advice. This find a 1950s low partner count housewife is such cringy bullshit it's a shame it's mixed up with self improvement
2) there is very little in the way of actual game advice. On the contrary there is some vague philosophy about game and always holding frame that gives the impression that seduction is combat, which is clearly counterproductive. Even if some the specific content isn't wrong just vacuous the tone will give the wrong impression of what pick up is supposed to feel like

 

[Zanardi]

I feel you, Skills. I went through a period in which I was consuming this red pill material and all it did was to hold me back and instill some fears that had no real basis.

One of them was that every (or most) Facebook friend request or IG follow is a subtle offer for cock. In theory it may be so, but it breaks down in practice. Why? Because friends and coworkers can also send Facebook requests and in real life, most girls keep in touch, via Facebook, WhatsApp or Insta with very few people. Sure, they may have 3000 Facebook friends, but they almost always go to their personal orbiter collection.

 

[Carousel]

This was inevitable. Anything that goes mainstream or lacks moderation and screening will become quickly almost useless. The signal to noise ratio becomes very high when everybody is entitled to have an opinion and this will cause people who actually know something to run away because they will be constantly shouted down by KJs, trolls etc. Most people just like to whine and complain about things rather than try to do something constructive with their lives. it is much easier to be destructive or inactive rather than constructive. This is true in any pursuit. Just join a training forum or business forum with no screening or merit-based moderation. 99% of the content will be awful, lots of complaining without action, fakes are gurus etc.

The masses will never learn much seduction and that is just good. Let them mind their own business, go to work, pay taxes, get married, get divorced or whatever. In that sense, guys like Rollo are probably exactly who they should listen to. He has some level of game understanding, is a father and appears to be mentally healthy. Not does he seem to be very whiny either. He can learn them to become a little bit better and avoid the most horrible mistakes, like wifing up a cluster B without a prenup or whatever. That is what the average guy should aim for. And nothing more. Ordinary people who try to be extraordinary just crash and become delusional, depressed or crazy.

We on the other side have the opportunity to create a place where a small number of experts and dedicated people can improve themselves and innovate new stuff. The fewer people who do this the less society will mind, and the less power will any sort of "BAD FOR SOCIETY" argument hold.

 

[Space]

The masses will never learn much seduction and that is just good. Let them mind their own business, go to work, pay taxes, get married, get divorced or whatever. In that sense, guys like Rollo are probably exactly who they should listen to.

We on the other side have the opportunity to create a place where a small number of experts and dedicated people can improve themselves and innovate new stuff. The fewer people who do this the less society will mind, and the less power will any sort of "BAD FOR SOCIETY" argument hold.

Guys, I seriously don't have the slightest clue where you are coming from with this "seduction is so underground" mindset. Go to YouTube and check out Based Zeus. This is his very first video from 3 years ago.

I unsubscribed to all the other dating advice channels, because they waste my time with their 20 mins video that doesn't get to the point. you get to the point. can you make one on how to deal with rejection?

He has 1.3 million subscribers. That's a lot. He is popular on quite a different scale to what you are talking about here here. Our aspiring YouTube star @nad_bigger may be interested.

You can argue with the advice given in the video and be more nuanced but in general I say he gives good advice. Quite good advice for being such a young person.

If you care to figure out who the person is behind the animation it's easy to find out. His texting advice is especially good. But my point to this thread is that it is used by everybody.

 

[Skills]

Finally guys the voice of reason(he probably read this post, lol:

in this video he call rollo paranoid lol, finally:

 

[Tony D]

Red pill was a deep rabbit hole of necessity, toxicity, and anger. I came out of it pissed off and politicized. I learned a lot of interesting things, and I'm glad I went there. But I'm not gonna live in that place.

 

[Hue]

Red pill was a deep rabbit hole of necessity, toxicity, and anger. I came out of it pissed off and politicized. I learned a lot of interesting things, and I'm glad I went there. But I'm not gonna live in that place.

I think Chase put it well once (I think when he was describing an email conversation with another seduction blogger, if I remember correctly):

You have to first eat the red pill, go through it's effects, learn the change in perspective (get red pilled) and then let it digest. Once you have accepted some of the harsh truths and dropped some of the bitterness that so many men carry with them (and consistently refuel in the echo-chamber of plenty of red pill communities), you can continue to enjoy and live your life having gained much more insight and hopefully skillset than your average man.

That stuck with me. At some points over the last few years this seduction journey had me at some dark internal moments and employing a couple fucked up mindsets on people in general for a little while. But hey, those moments are now reference points that helped me grow


Some great points made above. Helpful post.


Hue


EDIT: Didn't want to misquote Chase in the post. Found the exact quote, which comes close to / implies what I say above,
"So I brushed the guy off – but not without including a little zinger about our place being the place guys end up after they’ve swallowed the red pill and have gotten over all the indigestion the manosphere red pill guys are dealing with...

"Yeah, you’ll realize [whatever you’re talking about] once you’re done with the red pill and have learned all you need to learn there and gotten all the anger out.”

“I understand, sexism/racism/homophobia/xenophobia/etc. is what you talk about when you’re still wrestling with the world and trying to understand why there are differences. It’s mentally expedient to dismiss them as the result of some kind of ‘oppressor’ or something.”

" from Tactic Tuesdays: How to Dismantle Anyone Who Condescends to You

 

[FunGuy]

While I found some of their advice to be useful, their attitude towards women and their paranoia was extremely out of control. That alone made it a recipe for disaster, I feel like the intentions were good but the energy channeled was very toxic. We all know a handful of women who have had one horrible experience with one guy and have condemned the entire male population as being "good for nothings", the red pill was like the male version/manifestation of that.

Working on your career, getting shredded, and being aloof seemed to be their main ideology, but at the end of the day those 3 things are adjacent to seduction and not a direct component. Nevertheless, I wish that they had a positive outlook, instead it felt like it was a community more geared towards fueling bitterness towards women.

I really hope that all the men out there who hold bitterness towards women can find a healthy way to overcome those feelings. Holding in bitterness will cause people to be miserable.

 

[Carousel]

While I found some of their advice to be useful, their attitude towards women and their paranoia was extremely out of control. That alone made it a recipe for disaster, I feel like the intentions were good but the energy channeled was very toxic. We all know a handful of women who have had one horrible experience with one guy and have condemned the entire male population as being "good for nothings", the red pill was like the male version/manifestation of that.

There is an unfortunate tendency that burned individuals venting or paranoid people are considered to be "red pilled" or somehow worth taking seriously in the case of radical Feminism, which is more or less the equivalent of toxic redpill guys.

These people have just gone to the opposite extreme. The true "red pill" may be somewhere in the middle and it may be inaccessible to such people until they cool down a bit.

 

[Mr.Rob]

I think one aspect why red pill has been so successful is it caters to the "everybody is a victim" mentality that the West currently spues.

Gives a camp for white straight men to hang out in that don't have a more mainstream victim camp to hang out in.

Not that is all bad and sure I can see a benefit to going through that for a period but the guys that get stuck there... Idk it always seemed like a loser philosophy that doesn't really help you much.

It's just a consolation prize of fellow losers that got burned and can't get accept or understand female nature.

 

[Skills]

putting the history here, just to have it when i redirect to people to this post from @West_Indian_Archie :

Quick history lesson

Red Pill 1.0

- The Original PUAs borrowed the idea the Red Pill/Blue Pill metaphor from The Matrix. All the stuff that's been taught by religion, Hollywood, etc was not sufficient for a man to get the kind of girls that he wants, the type of lifestyle that he wants. There was this "hidden" code of what actually made girls attractive.

Keep in mind this is the mid-to late 90s, early 00's.

Meeting and talking strangers was NORMAL.
The way to meet a girl was to say that you like her, try to take her out, buy her a drink, and then take her on months of dates before you "got lucky"

This was the Blue Pill. This is how most people met.

But there were guys that were able to meet girls, meet hot girls, and get some "action" on the same night.

These were outliers. These were people at the tail end of the Gaussian Distribution.

To explain why Average Jamal had to get a job, work out, and pray for a nice girl, while Darnell could just wink....

These players were either Handsome, Athletes, Rich, or Famous or Infamous (bad boys). There was some fixed EXTERNAL quality about them that explained why they got girls. There had to be. There's always an explanation of why that guy is getting the girls.

And then there were naturals. He didn't necessarily have any of these traits, he was just a natural with women.

Taking the Red Pill 1.0 was discovering this "naturals" secrets. Suddenly girls weren't complicated. The long story short was most of the traditional approaches were boring.

You would take the red pill, discover the secrets, see that this world, these arbitrary rules on how to attract and sleep with an attractive woman, just like Neo did - and suddenly could stop bullets.

So making more money, trying to from 15% body fat to 9% body fat, etc - all that stuff was put by the wayside. The conventional methods got you conventional results.

Turns out an average man could merely change his personality and behavior and make those connections with women. It wasn't the external stuff that was the real "clincher" but how he used the interaction.

The real funny thing is, you could use a formula with canned lines and memorized scripts to get these amazing reactions with girls. I personally remember using 3's and 7's and getting this dynamite reaction that ended up in a SNL.

You didn't drastically change your looks, or suddenly become a billionaire, you just changed your mindset and then your actions.

You didn't even need to come up with anything.

It's still amazing to think about it. And one could update a lot of the routines, personalize them a bit, and get better results today, because girls are not as used to offline approaches.

Red Pill 2.0 - Roosh, Roissy (Chateau Heartiste), and Rollo from the Manosphere (Dalrock and those guys - many of whom are traditional conservatives - American/Christian)

I think DC Bachelor started in 2006? Roosh was a student of Mystery. He was fairly successful. He wrote his stripped down version of MM, called Bang. He also started his blog. One of the commenters on his Blog, Roissy would have these social insights into why pick up worked.

But Roissy had a problem. He asked himself, why do I have to do all of this to get with a girl. Roosh noticed it too.

If you've ever gamed in DC, you know that the "market" is women in their mid to late 20's, very educated, and very into things like Yoga and Veganism. Not out of any sort of deeply held respect for Indian culture, it's just the cool thing to do for someone in her tax bracket/social class. It used to be Yoga, and now it's Soul Cycle and "Trap Yoga"

Roissy , at Roosh's urging, started his own blog, and he focused on the social issues with women, but he really meant women in DC.

Pick Up is a cure for a sick society. After years of successful pick up, he comes to the conclusion that women should not be like this. And he leans heavily into Evo Psych for his foundation.

Roosh, unhappy with what he saw as pampered and entitled Type A school girls, set off around the world to meet girls. He'd later start a forum.

Roissy gets doxxed and rebrands as Chateau Heartiste. He's never the same, imo.

Roosh does his series of "love tourist" books, where he talks about how to get laid in Latin America and Europe. He makes a mistake when he criticizes some European country. He tries to ride the wave of notoriety, but he becomes a persona non grata. He's never the same, imo.

At some point Gamer Gate happens, and he goes pretty hard in the paint against "SJW's" and "Liberals". Return of Kings (his other blog) and his Gamer Gate blog just feeds into this new scene that has nothing to do with pick up lines and ASD.

As Roosh gets caught in this Rage Against the Machine, the manosphere is coming together - with Roissy being a major voice. Let's just say some of what Roissy advocates leans into "biological determinism" and that is something discussed in those circles.

In my view, this nexus and 4Chan types, basically creates the Alt Right. But that's another discussion.

Rollo - is not a pickup artist, but he takes up the social aspects of increasing Feminism. He coins things like The Feminine Imperative and the thing I hate the most, "Sexual Market Value". Not because he's wrong, but because guys are literal mouth breathers, and they can't understand an argument/idea.

His first book is eye opening for guys that aren't successful at meeting women. And putting the political framework on the effects of Feminism, as well as the cultural framework - they bring in a whole lot of guys that don't care about going to bars/clubs and actually meeting and interacting with women.

Red Pill 3.0 - Rollo, Roosh, and Roissy - arguably the founders of the "movement" are not important anymore. It's guys like Entrepreneurs with Cars or Turd Flinging Monkey.

A lot of these guys have interesting things to say, they aren't all charlatans.

But They've taken the Evo-Psych arguments as gospel. Have vaulted direct approach, day game, and lifting as the holy trinity to get girls - but paradoxically, getting girls is not the point of The Red Pill. It's not supposed to be, but a good chunk of all of their discussions is about getting women.

The Red Pill Says - Getting bulk, stacking chips, being important in society is the key to getting girls. If you raise your SMV, the chick falls in line. If she gives you a shit test, agree and amplify. Easy, Peasy, Lemon Squeeezy.

These are the very things that PUA figured out were not sufficient to get girls. They aren't particularly efficient either. Instead of following the blue pill recipe, you had to change your mindset and learn new behaviors.

The Red Pill ideology goes further.

In a relationship, you must induce dread in order to keep her underground control. But if she cheats on you, remember AWALT. All Women Are Like That. She's not yours, it's just your turn.

Where I would argue that traditional pick up is about being flexible and reframing things, The Red Pill is about "holding frame" - i.e. being stubborn - not looking for things to change the girl's mood/perspective.

My way or the highway.
__________

So to answer the question, traditional pick up did consider Evo Psych. Things like pair bonds and dual sexual strategies were discussed, but not obsessed upon. Classic PUA didn't really care too much about "feminism". We cared as much as Al Bundy from Married with Children cared. She could believe that Santa Claus was real, she still wants to fuck.

As PUA got bigger, the industry leaders started to focus on the "social programming" aspects, because they had to systematically deprogram students in order to get them to adopt new behaviors. (and we see where that lead) That's the sort of issue you run into when you have a business that tries to convert people from A to B.

But now, the camps are firmly divided, and the Red Pill people keep spawning these horrible offshoots. Incels, Blackcels, Braincels, MGTOW, etc. All of them are basically trapped in their own mental prisons because of self limiting beliefs.

_______________

As for how the Red Pill can make your game better, it can...if you already understand pickup AND you have a solid world view.

AWALT - If she's gonna cheat, no matter how good you are to her, no matter how good you become - GREAT. You don't have to put a lot into the relationship. And if you're the type of guy that values CONTROL of a relationship, the person who leasts cares is the one in control.

Hypergamy - If she's always trading up for bigger and better, looking for the lover and not the provider - 1) be bigger and better, 2) don't be the provider. Problem solved.

I could go on and on about what could be useful from the current mockery of what the Red Pill was - but you're not going to learn that from their community.

They want to keep you scared.

There isn't much money being made, but as any veteran PUA knows - people get paid in psychic rewards. Convincing a guy to dump his GF because she liked a Celeb's photo on Instagram is a WIN for them.

The whole movement used to attract relatively solid guys and basically covered the downside of women better than the commercial side of PUA has.

But now? It attracts guys in high school and college, who haven't had much success with women, in a time when it's harder to connect with women.

You need to decide what sort of life you want. What kind of world view you want to have.

Do you want to be constantly looking over your shoulder, trying to find some Ukrainian Virgin, and live your life according to God's Plan?

Or do you want to live in reality?

Good luck rookie

"I could go on and on about what could be useful from the current mockery of what the Red Pill was"??? i would love to hear, i have some ideas.... such as getting zeroed out, i find that useful...

 

[Skills]

@Chase put the final nail on the coffin, rip red pills delusional movements (i got some teary eye reading this):

Why Men Lose Women: It's Not Hypergamy – It's Something Else

Many men think women leave them for a Bigger, Better Deal: a richer guy, a better-looking guy, a higher status guy. But hypergamy is not why men lose women. Instead, it's something else. The other day, a friend shared a YouTube video with me from a guy on a channel called Entrepreneurs with...

www.girlschase.com

 

[Train]

That article was a great read.

At first I got bummed about the idea of having to always keep your frame control constantly. Else the girl leaves. But I would consider leaving too if the girl got very fat. So it's only fair and natural.

 

[Skills]

That article was a great read.

At first I got bummed about the idea of having to always keep your frame control constantly. Else the girl leaves. But I would consider leaving too if the girl got very fat. So it's only fair and natural.

You do not have to do that "constantly", let me tell you a story, when i was with my 10 year ex, i would lose a client, or have a bad biz quater, and i would get soooooooooooo needy, and i wanted her to hold me and cherissh me and tell me "everything is going to be ok", I could see her getting "disgusted", then i would snap out and win in biz, and she would be "attracted" again, i called her out on it, and since she was basically trained by me in seduction, she told me "has nothing to do with a money, you were behaving sooo needy and weird, it turn me off" i was like "oh shit is true, i get it"....

don't go paranoia with that article on "frame control" you are taking it out of context...

 

[immy3482]

Yeah it's not even about "having to always keep your frame control constantly". It's about not letting yourself go to complete shit - just like we wouldn't stick with a girl who gained 100lbs and refused to lose it.

 

[Bismarck]

in this video he call rollo paranoid lol, finally:

In 1:11:52 you can clearly see Rollo admitting that ultimately his approach is one of making excuses for guys as opposed to seeking to remedy what's wrong in each particular case.

He's a sort of source of "waaaaaah! the world is unfair and everything's not my fault!" for guys going through tough periods in their lives.

His hypergamy lens is unactionable and whatever value it has to a theoretical understanding of evolutionary biology its application to real life leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[immy3482]

Rollo's shit is valuable - it just isn't a fix. He's like a stepping stone to sites like this one and other "taking action" blogs.

Rollo's more of a philosopher; I don't think his intention was ever to give advice. He talks about "what is", rather than "what you should do". That isn't even a bad thing; it just means you can't go to his website expecting it to fix you.