Naturals vs. PUAs: Is Laughter the Biggest Difference?

Chase

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I like how this thread has developed! A lot of very interesting remarks and anecdotes.

From @Bacchus:

They did not use humor to seduce girls though. While cracking jokes with guys was very common. The female giggle fits I saw, came as these guys flirted, or demanded compliance. Using warm but almost condescending tones. Very cocky statements. Telling girls to sit on their laps. Etc.

Such giggling often preceded compliance. Certain girls would behave dramatically first. Others would mirror this communication style.

That's how it went down in Africa
I have seen African guys gaming in this same way. A lot of strong invitations, "Come over here, and have a seat!" -- he is kind of smiling, you can tell he's being flirty with her, but it's not humorous. Though yes, she's still giggling (because she knows it's flirtation).

Typically they are this way with men they're being friendly with as well: they'll come up, put their arm around your shoulders, tell you, "Come on, my friend, let's go to the bar and get a drink!" and sort of drag/push you along with them. Smiling as they do it, speaking as a friendly authority figure almost.

Very different tone to how they run their game, it is true.

Because back in the days when I still used a decent amount of humor. I saw that without the cushion provided by tight social frame, these emotional spikes could suddenly shift her perception of me. . . towards court jester or entertainer realms. I would also run head first. . . into female state control. What's more is I noticed using high points to change venues, wasn't as consistently effective, if these girls were currently on-the-fence instead of warm.
Yes, that's certainly true. Get her laughing too hard at the wrong time and she calms down and, "Well, it's been GREAT talking to you... haha... now I have to go." Easy for humor to backfire if you're going too hard with it and the timing's imperfect.


From @Skills:

Bacchus, you beat me to it. The reason most girls seem giggling is cause they are already attracted. So yeah the premise of natural game different than pua due to humor is incorrect, here is a good example this dude in minute 16.47...
Yes, there is, "She is attracted to you, so anything you say with even a hint of a smile will set her off giggling."

There is also, "You are actually using humor as an emotional driver." Humor here being a tool you use to create emotions, the same way we use rapport building, rapport breaks, screening, qualifying, deep dives, sex talk/stories, cold reads, NLP, personality routines, other routines/gambits, etc.

Humor obviously works on people who are not attracted to you. Otherwise you wouldn't laugh at Chris Rock's jokes unless you wanted to bang him. However, I'd bet you 10 bucks there are nevertheless a bunch of women in the audience at any given Chris Rock show who arrived thinking, "That guy is gangly and unattractive," and walked out an hour later thinking, "I'd let that man shag my brains out!"

While a lot of laughter is attributable to the girl already liking you (just like a lot of how a girl responds to your screens, qualifications, cold reads, routines, gambits, stories, deep dives, sex talks, NLP, compliance tests... anything you do, really... is attributable to her already liking you), humor still seems to be a tool, that can be used, like these other things, and it does affect the seduction.


From @Teevster

Naturals are just average Joe's with a few extra lays under their belts. I have never met anyone who could beat an mPUA or even come close. Hence, in my dictionary, the world "natural" is a totally useless word.
Yeah, might be a geographical thing, as @Skills said.

I have seen a lot of guys claim as 'naturals' guys they know who were 'average Joes with a few extra lays under their belts', sure.

I can tell you my natural buddy Chip was at around 220 or 230 lays when he wifed a girl up (I think about age 28). He was a cold approach natural, we would go out to bars and pick girls up then take them back to his apartment where he had a half bar. Nick and Jared were also cold approach naturals, with similar success rates (Nick was closer to 300 lays IIRC; the best PUA I have known well and picked up with somewhat often got out of the game at around 400).

Lifeguard from mASF claimed 50 lays in a 3-month period while working at the beach. Zan from mASF claimed his best year was an 80-lay year. @Hector Papi Castillo worked with a natural at a bar who claimed 1,000 lifetime lays IIRC... Hector was very impressed with the guy's game.

There are good naturals out there, with more than a small number of extra lays under their belts.

I've only ever had one mPUA I was able to go out with even semi-regularly to use as a base of comparison (I don't want to compare based on guys I've gone out with a handful of times, or read about online) -- that said, if we are talking winging, I would rather wing with an mPUA than with a natural. If we're talking a head-to-head between an mPUA and a highly skilled/experienced natural (say, my natural buddy Chip, vs. my retired mPUA pal), I'd expect that to play out the exact same way as with an mPUA vs. another mPUA... it is largely going to be down to the girl and her tastes in men, and which of those guys appeals to her more.

Ideally you are not going to have a head-to-head, and everyone can find his own girl, however ;)


From @West_Indian_Archie

1) Have you known a natural whose game was NOT humor-based?

Yes, most of them.

3) How big a part of your own game is based around humor?

Probably 40%, because that's about 40% of my personality. I'm forever analyzing.

2) If so, how did his game work?

In light of #3, that I'm forever analyzing i'll describe naturals I've met over the years.

The Producer - He made beats for rappers and singers. His job was selling himself to get people into the studio and record. So I was interested in how he did that. Black dude 5'7", not fat but not built. Good BMI. Groomed well enough. I'm not a great judge of how attractive men can be to women, but he didn't look like Idris Elba or anything like that. He's not an obvious pretty boy (feminine looks). Nor is there that "rugged" charm (masculine looks). He just looks like a dude you'd see at the barbershop.

Within this crew, he was a known pussy hound. 5 kids, 3 mothers, and always on the make. True sex addict. He'd sweet talk or pay for it, didn't matter, had to get his dick wet.

Me and the squad took a trip. During an afternoon meal, he snuck off to go chat up the hostess. 5 at best. Looking for ol boy, I catch him spitting his rap to the chick.

It's literally the most saccharine vomit inducing night guy stuff I've ever heard. It's literally everything you're not supposed to do when it comes to a good seduction. The chick is eating it up though. She's really really digging it. He had at least 10 years on her, so maybe there is some arbitrage there, but I'm watching her face and she's lighting up and giving him the anime eyes.

He had something the next guy had.

The Doberman - Tall skinny brother, favoring a Doberman Pinscher. He had neither the body nor the face. Not in my crew or squad, but occasionally we would do some business. He was annoying to do business with. (this is key) Both of us were heavy in the club scene. He would routinely bring some of the hottest chicks I've ever met to venues that we would both go to. He was the epitome of "Where you find her at?" (the implication being she was rare and his looks didn't warrant the match).

In any night club scene, even if there are 50 clubs, the people that go out all the time quasi-know each other. We ended up being Eskimo Brothers with this Emo Chick. She told me that he was really into feet and footwear. My burning question was, what did you see in him?

"He had an answer for everything I said, a comeback to whatever I came up with."

He was annoying in business and that got him good deals. He was antagonizing and prickly with women, and that's literally how he got them into bed.

So I'm starting to put together a theory.

The Bulldog aka the only time i've been AMOG'd - It's only in the last year that I got my Asian flags. I've been doing this for more than 15 years, actively doing night life for 10, now running social circle and occasional night life as my career has moved on.

The Bull Dog was somewhat funny. He was built and did some modeling. He had a lot going for him in terms of tools to work with. But a lot of guys have that in the night life. They built "it", but no females ever came.

I had basically speared the "big fish" at some point, a chick that he always wanted. My dime piece was mine for maybe 3 years before it fell apart. But after the break up, I'm back on the make. And I run into him. At the venue, doing my thing, meet a nice Asian chick. At this point, my game wasn't solid, but this was only the second Asian chick that i'd really interacted with and got some traction with. I was running the typical funny/jokey, high energy, let's go dance, have you been to such and such diner...blah blah blah. She's eating it up.

We're literally about to leave and dude AMOGs me. For the life of me, I can't remember what he said or did, but she looked at me and look at him and looked at me - and then somehow I left.

What the hell just happened?

Fucked with me for weeks. Again, in another Eskimo brothers situation, I hook up with some other chick that banged him. She said he was cocky and persistent. He also had a hidden artistic side. Given his modeling, that should have been assumed, but believe me this dude was a bro. (on top of being a brother I mean)

The hidden artistic side was a huge contrast to the rest of his image, and that drew the girl in for the bang.

None of these guys were funny, but all of them, on a unconscious level, were homing in on the girl's unmet/unconscious needs.

With the Producer - this cute girl isn't getting the sweet attention that she deserves.
With the Doberman - this suicide chick isn't getting the sort of dominance and antagonism that she responds to
With the Bulldog - this chick needed to "discover" something from him - he basically tapped into her "nosy" gene.

I know their basic MO is to look good and go out and then be persistent. But what hooks these girls is something that's not in the basic manual. All of these dudes are in someway kind of messed up in ways that aren't necessarily obvious - but it's a lot like the James Wood character in Casino - sometimes those flaws will kick in a girl's nurturing mode - and when she nurtures she invests.

I'm still friends with the Bulldog and the Producer - and they're still living their lives. The Doberman? I imagine he's a wholesale liquor salesman or something.

That said, the lesson I have taken from all these different naturals, all the various PUA schools of thought, and more broadly all the persuasion/social science stuff - is that tapping into unconscious needs, stirring up emotions - is the key to getting girls/people to do things that they otherwise might pass up. That's sort of a "duh" moment, but to a large extent I don't think pickup/seduction really focuses on that sort of thing anymore.

WIA
Those are some fascinating experiences, WIA.

I like the meditations on these guys meeting that unmet need.

That is something to mull over a bit. Because you can look at any guy's type of game and, if he is good, he is meeting some type of unmet need in the women he meets.

It's an interesting prism to put things through.


From @Hue

I guess it depends on the type of "natural".

I know plenty of different types who get laid alot, but now that I've seen past the superficial levels I think only a few of them actually "get women".

The guys who simply get laid a lot, use plenty of humor. It's usually looks + humor + physique + leading / confidence. They make moves on girls when most guys wouldn't, they can handle a rejection or two, and their timing as to when to pull / when to go for the kiss is pretty damn good.


The only guy I know who "gets women", gets laid all the time, and doesn't use humor, I'm beginning to think actually isn't a natural, but this is a very recent observation. Once at a bar he was telling this guy all about women, then drunkedly grabbed me and goes "this man knows! talk to him too!" then went back to talking to his friend. So maybe he picked up that I study the same stuff, but didn't want to overtly tell me about it. Then, I could have SWORN he was doing day game a few weeks ago.

Touchy thing to just ask a man though... I'll have to think of a way to fish for information.

His style seems closest to Bacchus' from what I've read / listened to over podcast. Slow, deliberate movements. Doesn't hand out eye contact often. A natural aura of charm and charisma about him. Frankly, a seductive vibe. Only guy I know who has it down so well... making me think it's "unnatural".


I think generally speaking though, Chase's initial post is surely a fair observation. Guys that intuitively understand all this stuff and act on it effectively are even rarer than one's who simply have high lay counts / fuck a lot of hot girls. Most guys, even if they know what things work with women, will still never fully understand women either :p
Well that's interesting.

I wonder if there is a geographical relationship with the style of game local naturals develop to pursue local girls.

My natural buddies -- all American, picking up American girls, all using humor. Various American naturals from seduction forums, using humor. Velasco, based in NYC, using humor. Hue, American, in America, his natural buddies using humor.

Bacchus's African natural buddies, in Africa, picking up African girls, use commanding/flirtatious dominance, not humor. Move them to Europe, gaming European girls, they switch from commanding dominance to deadpan humor. Grand Master, in Europe, using humor.

West Indian Archie in... the West Indies? Natural buddies use sweetness, dominance, or nosiness, all wrapped up in persistence -- but not humor.

I don't know if these patterns held up if we looked at / talked to more guys who knew other actually prolific / higher end naturals in different geographies.

But it's interesting the... potential adaptations going on here.


One thing we can conclude: use of humor is not by any means a universal 'biggest difference' between naturals and PUAs.

It seems like it might be, locally, at least in America, a big difference. Maybe. Again, more data points required.

It certainly is not universally, though. West Indian Archie is in a reverse situation -- he, the PUA, uses more humor than his natural friends do. In Africa they are apparently not using it at all (at least not the guys Bacchus knew).

Thanks for contributing, fellas.

Chase
 

Richard

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Early GC basically taught me that it was okay to be a guy that enjoys women and I consider a lot of my game to be more "natural" than "learned." As a result, I use sexual humor a ton and I think sexual humor is the easiest avenue to get girls interested because it accomplishes so much:

1) Creates a sense of comfort and unguarded-ness
2) Injects elements of sexuality into the mix

The majority of "naturals" I know don't really understand women; they might be able to sleep with women but they don't understand women so in the long run most of the naturals I know have still ended up in the same position as "average Joes;" domesticated by a chick, just the chick is hotter than "average." PUAs/Naturals who have read PUA understand women though and I think that gives them a definitive edge in the long run. Better relationship management, better drama management, better at dealing with female game, etc.

So, really, the biggest difference I see is the levels to which naturals vs. PUAs actually understand women opposed to just being able to bed women :)

-Richard
 

POB

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I like how this thread has developed! A lot of very interesting remarks and anecdotes.

From @Bacchus:
I have seen African guys gaming in this same way. A lot of strong invitations, "Come over here, and have a seat!" -- he is kind of smiling, you can tell he's being flirty with her, but it's not humorous. Though yes, she's still giggling (because she knows it's flirtation).

Typically they are this way with men they're being friendly with as well: they'll come up, put their arm around your shoulders, tell you, "Come on, my friend, let's go to the bar and get a drink!" and sort of drag/push you along with them. Smiling as they do it, speaking as a friendly authority figure almost.

Very different tone to how they run their game, it is true.
There's a state in Brazil called Bahia where you'll find the biggest concentration of black dudes (strong African heritage, guys there are almost pure African breed).

This is EXACTLY how they behave over there, just like @Bacchus described.
If you are a guy tourist, they forcibly "befriend" you to try to get something of value out of it (not necessarily money).
If you react with anger or even rage to brush them of, they start to mock you non-stop, making you look like a fool in front of every chick.

If you are a chick, they will over extend every type of aggressive "friendly" flirtation, leading these girls exactly how they want it (almost like a dominant sex doll who talks out of character). They crack one or two jokes, but them become very serious about leading to sex as fast as possible without losing that fake "friendly" tone.

Lots and lots of European chicks bang those dudes non-stop when they go there....some even bring them back home in hopes of getting a serious relationship LOL! Southern Brazilian chicks go there as well for a "sex escape" - if they have a break up or long dry spell.

Also almost all of those guys are lousy at making money, and feed from this constant stream of sex and gifts to keep that lazy beach lifestyle going. I consider them naturals, although my guess is they only get success in that very specific setting
(some naturals fail miserably when you take them out of their comfort zone....good PUAs don't have that issue).
 
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K__

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Humor from a natural attracts attention to him and takes the frame. The girl is somewhat emotionally stimulated then the effect dies off quickly. There's better tech so advanced guys don't harp on it.
 

Skills

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Humor from a natural attracts attention to him and takes the frame. The girl is somewhat emotionally stimulated then the effect dies off quickly. There's better tech so advanced guys don't harp on it.
 
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