Overcoming someone’s else guardedness

uriel

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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So, I was reading @Chase ’s article about the differences between old fashion and modern sex symbols and he makes an interesting point about how it’s very noticeable that men are becoming more and more guarded over the years.
(https://www.girlschase.com/content/old-fashioned-sex-symbols-vs-modern-male-stars-what-s-difference)

This made me have a good look at myself and realize that it could be a big limiting force in my life.
While I have had some decent success with women... it constantly haunts me how some of the best women I have met, I wasn’t able to keep around.

Some of my ex-GFs have told me that while I am very caring, it can feel like I am cold and calculating... which makes sense in a way... I am very rational.
Also, I grew without a father and the closest man to be a father figure to me, my stepdad, despite being a great guy is a rather distant person.

In retrospective, I can think of many girls I maybe could have salvaged, had I been more emotional (willingness to emote, maybe?).

Adding to that, I have a coaching business that was going very well before the pandemic started and it’s about to close down for a similar reason... I struggle making potential clients let go their own barriers.

So I wonder if we could talk a little about removing one’s guardedness and removing it on others.
Or perhaps an article about that.

It would be very thankful for some insights.
 
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Regal Tiger

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Yo! As for removing your own barriers one thing that I've found that helps me is to just relate to what people tell you. When someone tells you about something hard going on in their own lives just try to think up something similar.

If you don't have anything similar then you can even lead with that:
"I hear ya, that sucks. I don't think I've ever been directly in your shoes but I remember feeling *similar to what they just said, sad, angry, disappointed or whatever* when this thing happened to me".


As for getting other people to lower their own boundaries, here's how I do it:
1: state control and project as calm an energy as you can muster
2: nonjudgmental attitude about things in general (there are ways to project this as well, most involve talking about a bunch of different subjects or even expressing some lightly controversial thoughts/opinions. Then you can also just swear a lot, which is what I do naturally lol)
3: reveal something about yourself first

Number 3 makes it to they feel comfortable opening up to you and it also kicks the 'reciprocity effect' into action. After that, it's Cognitive Dissonance/Benjamin Franklin Effect/Backwards Rationalization that come into play as well as emotional investment.



As a side note, I can relate to what you said about being guarded because I'm EXTREMELY guarded in my own life and I have a lotta barriers up. And yet I don't have any problems getting other people to lower their own barriers because of how I approach people in general.

It took me some time to think about it, but those are the main things that I believe make other people open up to me even though I'm guarded myself. And this is something that people who are even close to me talk about, and yet they also say they feel so comfortable, calm and open around me.

Lastly, if you notice someone being a little guarded/apprehensive/sad/whatever emotion you can bring it up. I find the Chris Voss Labeling Technique works better than anything else. Here's how it works:
Use phrases like
1. You seem like that makes you kinda sad
2. Sounds/Looks like you're a little apprehensive to talk about that

And then just allow them to open up or even shut it down as they see fit. Because even though I'm really good at getting people to open up even I can't get people to talk about things that are kind of 'too much' for them, if that makes sense. Or things that are too fresh I've noticed I get shut down on as well.

If you do get shut down, just say that it's alright and that you understand. But if they need to talk about it then know that you have the freedom to reach out. Something like that :)

Hope that helps, I'm in a bit of a hurry so feel free to ask any follow-up questions :)
 

Will_V

Space Monkey
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157
So, I was reading @Chase ’s article about the differences between old fashion and modern sex symbols and he makes an interesting point about how it’s very noticeable that men are becoming more and more guarded over the years.
(https://www.girlschase.com/content/old-fashioned-sex-symbols-vs-modern-male-stars-what-s-difference)

This made me have a good look at myself and realize that it could be a big limiting force in my life.
While I have had some decent success with women... it constantly haunts me how some of the best women I have met, I wasn’t able to keep around.

Some of my ex-GFs have told me that while I am very caring, it can feel like I am cold and calculating... which makes sense in a way... I am very rational.
Also, I grew without a father and the closest man to be a father figure to me, my stepdad, despite being a great guy is a rather distant person.

In retrospective, I can think of many girls I maybe could have salvaged, had I been more emotional (willingness to emote, maybe?).

Adding to that, I have a coaching business that was going very well before the pandemic started and it’s about to close down for a similar reason... I struggle making potential clients let go their own barriers.

So I wonder if we could talk a little about removing one’s guardedness and removing it on others.
Or perhaps an article about that.

It would be very thankful for some insights.

Deep diving, asking questions and relating. My last SNL a couple of weeks ago was basically an hour of her talking to me about herself and her life followed by my suggestion that we have a drink at my place.

For a business type setting, this video might interest you, Chris Voss is a very knowledgeable guy on this sort of thing.

 

Regal Tiger

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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444
I'd add that Chris Voss's Labeling is a great way to avoid 'interview mode' where you're constantly asking question after question after question. Which was one of my big stumbling blocks because I'm so curious about other people's lives.
 

uriel

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Messages
387
Thanks guys!!
Sorry for waiting a couple of weeks to reply. Life has been a little hectic.

@Regal Tiger
Thanks, man.
So I am pretty good to relate with what people tell me already but the process you mention to lower barriers sounds new to me. I will give it a try.

Basically, it would be: be calm, be nonjudgmental, say something controversial (break pattern) and share something personal. Right?

What would you say it’s your hit rate with these techniques?
I can easily get people talking honestly about their barriers... helping them overcome them, not so much.

@Will_V
Thanks, man.
I’m glad to see mirroring and labeling is something I already do naturally.

So how would you go about convincing someone to do something or change the way they think?
 

Regal Tiger

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Thanks guys!!
Sorry for waiting a couple of weeks to reply. Life has been a little hectic.
All good! I just got a few new jobs and might be adding a third so I understand getting busy lol.
@Regal Tiger
Thanks, man.
So I am pretty good to relate with what people tell me already but the process you mention to lower barriers sounds new to me. I will give it a try.
Definitely do! It works wonders for me, personally.
Basically, it would be: be calm, be nonjudgmental, say something controversial (break pattern) and share something personal. Right?

It's not something that's a system, but more of a general way of being (the exception is the energy/state control which must always be a constant that I can go over how to get if you'd like).

So, whenever someone says something controversial it's not about saying something controversial just for saying something controversial. It's expressing a piece of who you are that's important. What's more, it will polarize in a way to attract like-minded people to you.

Here's an example; I'm working at a few restaurants right now and one thing they do is that they tear off and throw away the white pieces of lettuce when making stuff (it's bitter in taste). When I heard this, at both places I made the joke "Oh, so you get rid of the white pieces, just like CNN". That can be considered offensive by some, but it's had a good hit rate so far.

But what does this do for people besides make them laugh?

Take a moment to really, truly think about it. Why would this stupid joke make people lower their guards around me?


...



It's because they know that I don't give a shit about being PC and they can, in turn, relax around me. One of the guys even started making some jokes at feminists expense after that because he correctly assumed that I'm not going to be one of those SJW's who will complain about it later. All within a half hour of meeting him because of that single joke. He felt safe/comfortable enough to make that joke around me because I went there first (and I could tell it was a safety issue because he's kind of quiet but only whispered the joke to me even though there was another guy there who probably would have laughed his ass off about it).


Likewise, when talking about controversial subjects another way to think about it is like this:
Say you have a problem with a girlfriend that's not quite PC. Say... you have to have anal in your relationship for whatever reason, or a threesome from time to time or whatever. Who are you going to feel more comfortable and safe to open up to?
A) the Christian priest who talks about sex out of wedlock is damning for your soul?
B) or the party guy who you see with a different woman every night of the week?

That's an extreme difference to highlight what I'm trying to say. You're more comfortable talking to people about certain things once you've gauged them to be on the same wavelength. Likewise with that same example as above, who would you be more comfortable talking about religion with?

__

So whenever I say to say something controversial, or swear a lot or whatever, it's more about not being afraid to put yourself out there and allow like-minded people to come to you. This tells people that it's okay to open up to you and to relax around you because you just don't give a shit.

Those are some ways to project a nonjudgmental attitude.

But here's another way to think about it:

Who do you think is going to be more judgmental in general?
A) The guy who talks about how his child made a non-PC joke and he was ashamed of that joke
B) The guy who talks about how his child made a non-PC joke and laughed his ass off

Or, would you feel like the guy who mentions, but doesn't really go into detail about how one time he met a girl from Tinder at 2:30 in the morning and got caught with his pants around his ankles by the girls sister (happened to me lol) is probably not going to judge you for wanting to talk to that cute chick over there?

But it's also more than just sharing that quick tidbit, it's also about how you share it. If I were to share that while looking kind of embarrassed you wouldn't feel as comfortable expressing your own sexual desires around me. But, here's a different scenario, say you talk about some embarrassing dream you had and then, with a big smile on my face mention how I got caught with my pants around my ankles by a girls sister that I'd just met one time. You would feel more relaxed and open around me to share something similar.


So when I say to say controversial things, I more mean to realize that it's okay to share stuff that others might take offence to.

But, on the other hand, I'm not saying to just launch into stuff. You always have to gauge where other people are at as well. For example, here's the full notes version about that 2:30AM Tinder girl (and then I'll give a few ways to share this story, each new version going into more detail):

1) Woke up to get a drink of water with a text on my screen asking "what are you up to?"
2) Text back, and then find myself driving a half hour to go meet her
3) Get to her place, which is a little townhome/duplex/apartment like area with one resident in the downstairs and hers being the upstairs
4) She comes downstairs and we start making out
5) She doesn't want to let me upstairs so we go to my car
6) Things start happening and then I get overheated
7) Open the car door and she walks out trying to lead me to behind the house/townhome building thing
8) Sister walks up shining a flashlight at me, with my pants literally around my ankles
9) She yells at us
10) Then my new friends sister leaves and my new friend pulls me to the back to finish up

So, here's a way I can mention the story to someone new to kind of see where they're at:
1) Oh yeah, that reminds me of the time I got caught with my pants around my ankles by the girls sister! That was interesting

Short, sweet and not many people are going to launch into a tirade about me being some piece of shit or whatever. But it's a great way for me to see if people are going to be comfortable with those kinds of stories or not. Furthermore, it leaves out a lot of details: was it a girlfriend or a hook-up, nobody knows...

2) Oh yeah, that reminds me of the time that I met a girl from Tinder at 2:30 in the morning. Drove a half hour to meet her and I ended up getting caught with my pants around my ankles by her sister

So I've gauged that somebody will be comfortable with some taboo subjects and then the opportunity comes up for this story, so I go into a little more detail

Then there's the third version where I've met somebody and they seem cool as fuck so I just tell them the whole story.

There's a kind of evolution that happens whenever you go into stuff like this. And you can do this for all sorts of subjects, this is just the easy one since we're on a forum for men about getting better with women.

You can do this for all sorts of things, and I recommend this way of doing it.

__

But, whenever you say something just pay attention to how someone reacts. Then, if they react well or even neutrally, then you can go a little bit further next time. If they react poorly then mark that person in your mind as someone you don't want to let out too much with (so for me, I'd stop with version 1 of my story above rather than 2 or 3). Then, whenever someone has an issue with Tinder or whatever they'll be more comfortable opening up to me about it.

Furthermore, because I'm clearly not going to judge them for being on Tinder or hooking up or whatever, there's an extremely high chance that I'm not going to judge them for anything else either. Because it's just a part of who I am. Though, nothing's ever guaranteed. Even the party guy hooking up with someone different every night can still hold some weird womanly views when it comes to relationships for example. It's just less likely is all.
What would you say it’s your hit rate with these techniques?
I can easily get people talking honestly about their barriers... helping them overcome them, not so much.

I wouldn't say much about my hit rate, just because it's more about finding people's wavelengths as I would call it.

Once I find out their wavelength, given enough time I can get anyone to open up about anything.

Here's what I mean about wavelengths:
1) at the restaurant where I work there's a guy there who's super chill and cool. We're on the same wavelength right away and just like to have fun, but can be serious when we need to be. I can mostly be whatever I feel like around him
2) Another guy who is more serious in nature, so I meet him at that wavelength
3) Same with an older lady, I'm more serious in nature but I still put forward good energy towards them
4) Another guy who is a bit awkward but super positive, I push tons of positivity towards him and that's all he needs
5) Another dude who I never met who jokingly told me to shut up as the first thing he said to me: all I did was beam a smile at him and say "I'll put the fear into you" and just kinda laughed


Once I get any of these people into a one on one scenario, all I have to do is start deep-diving them. Chase has a great article about deep-diving, but there's another way to do it with newer people that helps me visualize it by David Snyder. Chase's deep-diving methods are geared more towards people you kind of already know a bit, in my opinion.

Start off in the shallow end with your deep-dives and pay attention to when there's more of a story there than people let on. Especially about hardships. Just point out that you noticed there seems to be more to it than that. Then, if they're comfortable enough they'll open up.

Again, if it's about something that's too fresh, or something truly big, even I get nowhere at first. But given more time and more experience with that person, they'll let their barriers down for it too. The key, is to just respect those barriers whenever they come up.



_______

And lastly, about sharing something personal yourself:

That's more about going down the rabbit hole first so that the other person feels safe and comfortable enough to talk to you about something potentially hard. Which, is partially what the being controversial part is about; just taking stabs in the dark until you hit something if you want to think about it that way.

Here's an example of what I mean with that: say you notice someone checking out a girl but being kind of awkward and not approaching her, even though you can tell he wants to.

What's likely going through that guys head at this particular moment?

...

Approach anxiety, he's nervous. So, noticing that he's nervous you just walk up and start talking about how you were just reminded of the time when blank. Here's an example of mine:
My first ever date I'd ever gone on. I was so fucking nervous that I accidentally yelled my compliment at her... oops lmao
Then the second date I'd ever gone on was with an older lady who literally tried to get me to buy into her ponzi scheme

Now, sometimes you won't always get it right and that's okay. If you got it right it's extremely rare for people to question why you were just reminded of that story. But, just point out why you were reminded of it and if you're right then if they asked or not they'll feel safe and comfortable enough to launch into what they're going through because you've started that thread already. It's only natural to follow the thread.

If you're wrong then there's usually no harm no foul as long as you point out why you thought what ya did. Sometimes this can even lead a new thread about making bone head mistakes.



____


As for helping them overcome their barriers, most of the time all you'll be able to give them is positive energy or even a hypothetical what-you-would-do. As long as you're careful in how you do it (and they've asked you about it) then it'll be well received.

But if you've actually had similar experiences then just talk about what you did, what the results were and anything you'd do differently now that you know.
@Will_V
Thanks, man.
I’m glad to see mirroring and labeling is something I already do naturally.

So how would you go about convincing someone to do something or change the way they think?

Socrates method is a great way to do it. Just ask questions (at least, off the top of my head I think that's what it's called).

Another way is something I got from Charisma on Command: if you're in an argument, start with where you agree and then go into where you disagree. Being careful to stick to facts about the situation rather than about the person.

If you're not in an argument, but rather just sharing, then it's a bit trickier and kind of depends on the situation. But mostly I stick to rewards that I know that person wants.

For example, if I know someone highly values their image, then I'll talk about the respect that blank decision will get them. How people will look up to them once they've done blank.

If someone wants women, then think about all the hot babes that'll be drooling for his cock afterwards.

I'm exaggerating a little bit for effect, but basically just talk about the rewards and try to make it real for them in their heads by describing it.


EDIT: It's a long answer and I hope I didn't overwhelm you, but I wanted to try and answer everything as fully as I could. I've probably left stuff out here and there, but I hope that helps :)

Feel free to ask any follow-up questions you may have or anything. Can't promise speed, but I will get back to ya if you quote me so I get the notification alert thing.
 
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uriel

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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@Regal Tiger, man I was reading all your post and it got me real excited because most of the things you mention I have them already internalized.
Perhaps I am more influential than I thought and Injust need to be confident about that.

I really liked how you mentioned that given infinite time you can have anyone you know eventually follow you.
I’ll try to adopt this mindset.

I also liked when you said about offering what they wanted the most.

Definitely a long answer but one I will read a couple of times to internalize even more.

Overall I feel very confident now. Thanks for all this.
 

Zanardi

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I can relate to you in almost every way you mentioned in the first post. I didn't have a distant relative, but two lonely parents who trusted nobody and raised me in the authoritarian way (the way children were raised in the 80s Romania), where their only reactions were 25% indifference and 75% punishment. When I had my first real relationship, mom yelled at me for 1.5 years to dump her and to focus only on school, as an example.

Needless to say that I lost all trust in them. I kept communication to a bare minimum, hiding from them, telling them vague things and everything they wanted to hear, as often as I could. I couldn't show my emotions because I would be called up on it and gaslighted that I have no reason, nor right to feel that way, although most of the time my parents were the cause of my emotions, but were too proud/afraid to admit wrong. So, basically I had to suppress my emotions, to become a small emotionless robot. Or, at least, not to show in front of them. To them, I mustn't have any problems, everything is jolly and pink.

I kept wanting to have a girlfriend. Long story short, I discovered pick-up and began doing daygame with some success. Meanwhile, I learned freedom from outcome which helped me during the pick-up phase but, unbeknownst to me, was fueled by the emotional unavailability I had learned.

When I got a relationship from daygame, I felt completely nothing and kept daygaming. Part was because I didn't like the girl too much but I kept the relationship going to gain experience. 8 months later, she noticed my "lack of emotional attachment" and left me. "No harm, no foul", I first thought but some things began not to click:
  1. If I keep up like this, does this mean that I will never be in a relationship where I have feelings for somebody? I know @Chase explained in an article the mechanisms of falling in love, but because I know why do people fall in love doesn't exclude me falling in love. Knowing the ins and outs of a video game doesn't make me less fond of playing it. On the contrary: it make me like it even more, because I know that I am getting better;
  2. I am fully convinced that pick-up is a very powerful weapon (including in daygame). It's very relaxing to know that, after I finish this post, I can dress up, go out and try to meet girls. Then why don't I fully commit into a relationship and daygame meanwhile?
  3. How much is "I really don't like the girl" and how much is "I am emotionally unavailable or guarded"?
What's more ironic is this:
As a side note, I can relate to what you said about being guarded because I'm EXTREMELY guarded in my own life and I have a lotta barriers up. And yet I don't have any problems getting other people to lower their own barriers because of how I approach people in general.

I agree 100%. I'd add that the less available and the more distant you are, the more people tend to like you and search for your companionship. In a way, it's a good thing because I have the control and call the shots, but I am not so sure that feeling flat lines 365 days in a year is the optimum solution.

I guess I need to start to open up to my parents, first. It seems they started it.
 

Will_V

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@Will_V
Thanks, man.
I’m glad to see mirroring and labeling is something I already do naturally.

So how would you go about convincing someone to do something or change the way they think?
Missed your question, sorry.

I think @Regal Tiger has a lot of great points. What I would say is the right mindset for convincing anyone of anything, is to do it by never asking or telling them directly. The idea is to make them want it first, or to like the idea of it first, and then you offhandedly present to them the next step (something fairly small, not directly asking for everything you want).

The last SNL I had was a beginning-to-end deep dive. It basically went:

1. Talk for 40 minutes where I met her.
2. [Small step] Suggest drink at bar.
3. Talk at bar for half an hour.
4. [Small step] Suggest drink at my place nearby.
5. Talk for twenty minutes walking to my place.
6. [Small step] Kiss.
7. OK well things went pretty fast from here, but by then she was hot and ready and on my bed.

Thing is, each part of the conversation was more and more focused on my goal, somewhat 2 steps forward and 1 back (it basically went from emotional (low key) to erotic (high key) to relationships (warm key) to escalation in bedroom (hot key)), and each step she took was small enough that it was basically "Might as well, the connection is still good". The conversation was also about 90% her talking and me listening and steering a bit.

To translate that to a client setting, I would figure out how to break down what you want them to sign up for into a series of steps that are reasonably low investment. I've not done more than a little bit of sales, but that seems to me to be a good way to do it.

Get them to talk to you about their problem, then mention a little thing about your product/service that perfectly addresses that as if in passing, then get them talking some more, then offer to show them something that might interest them, then get them talking more, etc.

After they agree to one step, you reconnect a bit, qualify a bit, and then start building up to the next one.

Of course, you need to recognize a client that's ready to sign up, just like a woman that's climbing the walls to get laid, by moving through the steps faster or skipping some that are unnecessary.

Hope this helps.
 

Regal Tiger

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I agree 100%. I'd add that the less available and the more distant you are, the more people tend to like you and search for your companionship. In a way, it's a good thing because I have the control and call the shots, but I am not so sure that feeling flat lines 365 days in a year is the optimum solution.

I guess I need to start to open up to my parents, first. It seems they started it.

Yeah I've definitely noticed that people seem to want to help me out doing things more now than when I actually needed help growing up. It's weird. Could just be a confirmation bias though, not sure.
 

uriel

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Thanks, @Will_V
OK, so break it down into smaller forms of compliance.
And two steps forward, one back. Got it.
 
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