Plow or eject on a date?

[West_Indian_Archie]

Hey, although reading your first line didn't make me feel good, I must admit that I agree with whatever you said and there is a lot of wisdom in what you said. Reason I say this is, you got to the root of the issue which I think is a brilliant diagnosis of me and my game, just from a small post I posted.

I see what you mean and I agree that sad/bad emotions are far better than no emotions. I'll get to this shortly.

Believe it or not, I've had many discussions with my wing just about this topic. I know that good seducers can induce a range of emotions making the chic, ride those emotions like on a rollercoaster ride.

Sometimes it happens automatically when stars align and I just attribute it to "chance". But if I have to induce that process again consciously, it goes against my strongly held beliefs.

To put it in simple words, if I have to induce emotions, which is basically "manipulating her" perception of me/my thoughts/my feelings/ actions etc I feel a strong cognitive dissonance.

If you want to label pick up as manipulation, that's your decision. (just remember that most art and most communication is also manipulation. In fact, my even responding to your dilemma is an attempt by me to modify your behavior. Even me pointing this out, is manipulation.)

If that's how you want to label those events in your life, that's fine. I don't have a problem with that. You can always rewrite that narrative at a later time. I'm not a therapist, I'm just a guy who talks to girls at bars and night clubs.

So if running proper game* (proper game imo!) makes you feel bad, then it is what it is. Don't do things that harm you.

You just have to recognize that your method of "just being honest" or "just being yourself" is turning a lot of people away.
You have to recognize that there's something in you that does not care who you offend - and that trait of yours is inherently anti-social.

Cool. Accept it. Embrace it. 10x it!

If you want better results, Increase the volume of girls you want to talk to.

That's it.

WIA

 

[Calibration]

You just have to recognize that your method of "just being honest" or "just being yourself" is turning a lot of people away.
You have to recognize that there's something in you that does not care who you offend - and that trait of yours is inherently anti-social.

Thanks for this, it makes me think of it in a different light. I'll sit with this thought for sometime.

Just to dig this a bit deeper, I've had many instances when I was caught up in dilemmas when dealing with chics. I'll give you a simple example and let me know what would've gone in your mind:

I met a hot french chic few years ago when I didn't know much about game (natural game - shooting in the dark lol). She was new in my city and wanted to see places. She was a hardcore feminist and told me she hated masculinity. We hung out all day long, me showing her places etc.

After spending a lot of time together, I pulled her in to kiss and she resisted and in fact she got a bit angry that I did that without a proper date "wining and dining" lol. I behaved like nothing happened and left it at that.
In the evening, we went to "see stars" from a mountain and it was a romantic setup. Although I was a bit hesitant, I pulled her in and kissed again. She enjoyed making out and said I'm a very good kisser.

Just after a couple of mins after this, she got super upset and started creating a huge drama and started accusing me of manipulating her by bringing her to that place and she gave in. I actually laughed at her then saying "you liked kissing. Didn't you?". She gave me a long lecture of not doing this again with any chic etc.

Although I brushed it off then, something was unsettling in me and even to this day, I don't know what that is. This has happened with a few different chics in different contexts.
What kind of thoughts would've gone through your mind? I just want to hear a different perspective.

 

[Chase]

Just to +1 what @West_Indian_Archie said here a little bit...

Do you want to express yourself?

Or do you want to seduce women?

Right now you are doing the former, then scratching your head when it does not accomplish the latter.

I should've just shut up and listened to what she had to say but I gave my view of how life is so beautiful when you live in the present moment and not too caught up in the rat race etc. She said "don't try to cut my wings" and didn't like it obviously. Energy dropped instantly and saw her facial expression and body language change.

Yesterday I took a chic on Instant date and she was very bubbly throughout the date for almost an hour, then she asked me something and she didn't like what I said.
Her energy dropped immediately and I continued talking normally but I noticed it was not the same.

Just after a couple of mins after this, she got super upset and started creating a huge drama and started accusing me of manipulating her by bringing her to that place and she gave in. I actually laughed at her then saying "you liked kissing. Didn't you?". She gave me a long lecture of not doing this again with any chic etc.

Women, when they talk to you, are just "going with the flow." They're just "waiting to see if something happens." If it does, then it "just happened." If it doesn't, then it "wasn't meant to be."

As a man, you can also just "go with the flow", "take the conversation as it comes", "wait to see if something happens", "see if it was meant to be or not", etc. If you do, then you and the woman will be doing the same thing, and unless it's total magic between you, nothing will ever happen. You will spend a long time wondering why "nothing is meant to be."

You are in these conversations with women, and your conversation is quite obviously undirected. You are simply responding without any thought or feeling about "How does this move forward the seduction?" Instead you are just saying whatever comes to mind, like you're talking to some dude you're just hanging out with shooting the breeze, just "expressing yourself." That's fine with a dude you're just hanging out with shooting the breeze with, because you aren't trying to bang him. With a woman, you are trying to seduce her. You can't just "say whatever." You are not seducing.

Here's how it should be going:

HER: [talking about how driven she is]​

​

YOU: [thinking to self: "How can I use this to help the seduction?"] You know what I love about a driven woman? There's just way less BS. She knows what she wants. It's a pretty attractive trait.​

Or:

HER: [asks you something]​

​

YOU: [thinking to self: "How can I use this to help the seduction?"] [answers in a way that you think will move the seduction forward]​

Or:

HER: [gets upset after you kiss her and accuses you of manipulating her]​

​

YOU: [thinking to self: "How can I use this to help the seduction?"] You're right, I brought you here because I'm attracted to you and I didn't want to keep sitting around in some annoying public place where we couldn't be closer. So here's a question: a moment ago you were telling me I'm a very good kisser. But it seems like your own reaction scared you. So what it is you're afraid of, exactly? I'm not going to bite you. I mean, unless you want.​

You don't have to always get it right, and in fact when you start thinking this way you will probably get it wrong a lot and make many dumb mistakes.

But so long as your response is "just say whatever I feel" you are going to continually run into walls with girls because YOUR FEELINGS are obviously NOT ALIGNED with seducing women.

If your FEELINGS were "I love women... I want to seduce women... everything women say is silly and cute... I just want to get women into bed, I know they're happiest when with me... but I have to find out if this girl is cool, too... I need to make sure this chick is worthy to be with me... which means she needs to jump through a few hoops I set up for her to show me she has the kind of seductive qualities I am looking for... I don't want to make it too hard for her, of course, but I can't make it too easy... it's my job to lead her through things; I'm the ring master..." -- if your feelings were that, then you could just say whatever you felt and what you said would seduce, because your feelings are in alignment with what you're supposed to be doing.

The stuff in this thread happens because your feelings are not in alignment with seduction, but you are saying what you feel, so the things you say take you farther away from seduction instead of closer and closer to it.

You are going to need to go through a period where, SINCE YOUR FEELINGS ARE OUT OF ALIGNMENT WITH YOUR OBJECT, you ask yourself how you SHOULD respond, then try to respond that way.

Over time, as you test responses, and stumble on ones that work, and get good feedback from those, and accrue more and more very positive experiences with women, your feelings will start to align more and more with the nature of seduction, and you can more often just say whatever you feel like, because what you feel is increasingly in alignment with what you aim to do (i.e., get this woman naked into bed).

Until then, you need to stop saying stuff that blows up your sets and start asking yourself what would move things forward, rather than "how can I be true to myself the same way I would with a guy I wasn't trying to bang?"

Girls you want to seduce are not guys you don't want to bang. They are girls you want to seduce. You need to treat your conversations with them not as vehicles for self-expression but as vehicles for seduction -- at least until your internal state when you are with women gets so aligned with what seduces women than you can just say whatever and it turns girls on, that is.

At that point, you will be free to express yourself to your heart's content, and girls will climb all over you because of it.

Until then: look for stuff to move things forward, not for "being true to yourself."

Also, read this article:

Just Be Yourself: The Worst Dating Advice Known to Man

About a day ago, we had a commentator on the post on how to become romantic who weighed in to let me know that it's silly to try and get better with people, and that most people have better things to do, and that in fact you really should just be yourself, and anyone who doesn't realize how...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

 

[Calibration]

Just to +1 what @West_Indian_Archie said here a little bit...

Do you want to express yourself?

Or do you want to seduce women?

Right now you are doing the former, then scratching your head when it does not accomplish the latter.





Women, when they talk to you, are just "going with the flow." They're just "waiting to see if something happens." If it does, then it "just happened." If it doesn't, then it "wasn't meant to be."

As a man, you can also just "go with the flow", "take the conversation as it comes", "wait to see if something happens", "see if it was meant to be or not", etc. If you do, then you and the woman will be doing the same thing, and unless it's total magic between you, nothing will ever happen. You will spend a long time wondering why "nothing is meant to be."

You are in these conversations with women, and your conversation is quite obviously undirected. You are simply responding without any thought or feeling about "How does this move forward the seduction?" Instead you are just saying whatever comes to mind, like you're talking to some dude you're just hanging out with shooting the breeze, just "expressing yourself." That's fine with a dude you're just hanging out with shooting the breeze with, because you aren't trying to bang him. With a woman, you are trying to seduce her. You can't just "say whatever." You are not seducing.

Here's how it should be going:

HER: [talking about how driven she is]​

​

YOU: [thinking to self: "How can I use this to help the seduction?"] You know what I love about a driven woman? There's just way less BS. She knows what she wants. It's a pretty attractive trait.​

Or:

HER: [asks you something]​

​

YOU: [thinking to self: "How can I use this to help the seduction?"] [answers in a way that you think will move the seduction forward]​

Or:

HER: [gets upset after you kiss her and accuses you of manipulating her]​

​

YOU: [thinking to self: "How can I use this to help the seduction?"] You're right, I brought you here because I'm attracted to you and I didn't want to keep sitting around in some annoying public place where we couldn't be closer. So here's a question: a moment ago you were telling me I'm a very good kisser. But it seems like your own reaction scared you. So what it is you're afraid of, exactly? I'm not going to bite you. I mean, unless you want.​

You don't have to always get it right, and in fact when you start thinking this way you will probably get it wrong a lot and make many dumb mistakes.

But so long as your response is "just say whatever I feel" you are going to continually run into walls with girls because YOUR FEELINGS are obviously NOT ALIGNED with seducing women.

If your FEELINGS were "I love women... I want to seduce women... everything women say is silly and cute... I just want to get women into bed, I know they're happiest when with me... but I have to find out if this girl is cool, too... I need to make sure this chick is worthy to be with me... which means she needs to jump through a few hoops I set up for her to show me she has the kind of seductive qualities I am looking for... I don't want to make it too hard for her, of course, but I can't make it too easy... it's my job to lead her through things; I'm the ring master..." -- if your feelings were that, then you could just say whatever you felt and what you said would seduce, because your feelings are in alignment with what you're supposed to be doing.

The stuff in this thread happens because your feelings are not in alignment with seduction, but you are saying what you feel, so the things you say take you farther away from seduction instead of closer and closer to it.

You are going to need to go through a period where, SINCE YOUR FEELINGS ARE OUT OF ALIGNMENT WITH YOUR OBJECT, you ask yourself how you SHOULD respond, then try to respond that way.

Over time, as you test responses, and stumble on ones that work, and get good feedback from those, and accrue more and more very positive experiences with women, your feelings will start to align more and more with the nature of seduction, and you can more often just say whatever you feel like, because what you feel is increasingly in alignment with what you aim to do (i.e., get this woman naked into bed).

Until then, you need to stop saying stuff that blows up your sets and start asking yourself what would move things forward, rather than "how can I be true to myself the same way I would with a guy I wasn't trying to bang?"

Girls you want to seduce are not guys you don't want to bang. They are girls you want to seduce. You need to treat your conversations with them not as vehicles for self-expression but as vehicles for seduction -- at least until your internal state when you are with women gets so aligned with what seduces women than you can just say whatever and it turns girls on, that is.

At that point, you will be free to express yourself to your heart's content, and girls will climb all over you because of it.

Until then: look for stuff to move things forward, not for "being true to yourself."

Also, read this article:

Just Be Yourself: The Worst Dating Advice Known to Man

About a day ago, we had a commentator on the post on how to become romantic who weighed in to let me know that it's silly to try and get better with people, and that most people have better things to do, and that in fact you really should just be yourself, and anyone who doesn't realize how...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

Main takeaway is, I need to be keeping the goal in mind but I think I get carried away by emotions. How can I be in control of what I say? Does it come with practice? Failing over and over again. Is there a shortcut?
What is the mental model I need to adopt that will benefit me?
I might've had 5% success in the effort I put in for social skills. I approach a lot, I attend a lot of social events, i take every opportunity that comes my way to socialize but overall I feel the results are suboptimal. I know I need to overhaul some of my beliefs but how can I be more result-oriented?
I discovered pickup in mid 2018. It's been nearly 5 years (I know COVID had a huge impact and not sure if I have to count it as 5 years but I was out approaching even during COVID) and if I look back, I don't think I've made huge progress compared to someone who has just started out. Sometimes it makes me just give up. But what next? So I keep on.
I feel tired sometimes... These days I don't even have hopes to begin with when I get a number.. On one hand, I feel she'll flake and on the other hand, I feel I'll fuck it up at some point anyways... Same goes when an approach is going well.. i feel, this is not something that'd last.
Is there anyone here, senior members who succeeded by just keeping at it? I'd like to listen to their stories for inspiration

 

[Chase]

Did you ever read my book, How to Make Girls Chase?

I will quote myself from the introduction of the book:

In all things in life, there are two paths to success:

• Work Hard
• Work Smart

Most people do neither, and have no success.

Some people do one, and have some success.

A few people – a very small minority – do both, and have CRAZY success.

I’m asking you to do both. The Work Smart part of the equation is this book – your guide for the road ahead. Refer to it often, do the things it tells you to do, and make sure you’re implementing everything. It starts with the basics and builds into more involved practices, so you should start at the beginning of the book and work your way through. And when you find you’re hitting a stumbling block – that there’s some obstacle in your way that’s making it difficult for you to proceed – stop, go through this book again, and pinpoint what you’re missing, or what you’re doing now but could be doing better.

The Work Hard part of the equation is you getting out there and doing it. If you want to get good with women, you’ve got to meet women, continuously. No man will become good with women by going out a few times to talk with a couple women and then give up. Meeting women needs to become a habit. You need to get in the habit of going out regularly to meet women. Just like if you want to get in shape, you go to the gym three days a week for an hour and a half and work on different muscles, or if you want to be a good writer, you write a minimum of several thousand words a day. You must work in order to get results. No one can do it for you. You must be the one to do it.

What kind of results can you get? It depends on you: how driven you are, how committed you are to this, and how willing you are to change. I’ve seen men who were socially savvy, confident, and already had their fundamentals who just needed to advance their techniques; and I’ve seen guys who struggled for longer, having limited success here and there, before finally breaking through and achieving true success. Which leads us to one more principle – the men who find true success are the ones who reach the point of surrender, and forge on ahead regardless. That’s how you find the winners in life. The winners say, “Screw it,” and keep swinging until they hit something, no matter how many misses they already have. The winners are the ones who push past all the obstacles on the road to success because they truly want to succeed.

The thing that must be stressed again and again is that there is no magic pill to becoming good with women – just like there isn’t one in body-building, becoming fluent in a new language, or in building a successful business. Becoming a man who gets girls is a learning process – and it’s one that anyone, if he works smart, and he works hard – can succeed at.

Your success is only limited by how willing you are to do the work. It’s on you.

I read this from you:

Main takeaway is, I need to be keeping the goal in mind but I think I get carried away by emotions. How can I be in control of what I say? Does it come with practice? Failing over and over again. Is there a shortcut?
What is the mental model I need to adopt that will benefit me?
I might've had 5% success in the effort I put in for social skills. I approach a lot, I attend a lot of social events, i take every opportunity that comes my way to socialize but overall I feel the results are suboptimal. I know I need to overhaul some of my beliefs but how can I be more result-oriented?
I discovered pickup in mid 2018. It's been nearly 5 years (I know COVID had a huge impact and not sure if I have to count it as 5 years but I was out approaching even during COVID) and if I look back, I don't think I've made huge progress compared to someone who has just started out. Sometimes it makes me just give up. But what next? So I keep on.
I feel tired sometimes... These days I don't even have hopes to begin with when I get a number.. On one hand, I feel she'll flake and on the other hand, I feel I'll fuck it up at some point anyways... Same goes when an approach is going well.. i feel, this is not something that'd last.
Is there anyone here, senior members who succeeded by just keeping at it? I'd like to listen to their stories for inspiration

... and what I hear is, "I've been working really, really hard. But I'm not working all that smart at all."

Your emotions need to work for you and help you toward your goals. You either need to figure out how to get them to serve you, or you need to figure out an approach to seduction that aligns them with your goals (i.e., women falling into your arms/bed).

I studied meditation and did a lot of internal work before I ever got into seduction. So I can't directly comment on how to get your emotions under control if they're running wild and you haven't done that work yet. I might suggest starting with learning simple meditation and visualization, and doing that for a few minutes per day on a consistent basis for N months straight:

How to Do a 10-Minute Meditation that Eliminates Bad Emotions

I've been meditating since I was 18 years old. That's half a lifetime ago for me now. I didn't get into meditation as part of any kind of spiritual belief system. I prayed as a child when I was a Christian. But by the time I started meditating, I was an atheist. I'm more spiritual again now...

www.girlschase.com

5 Steps that Let You Visualize Anything into Reality

If you're the kind of hard-nosed, stubborn-headed realist I am, things like visualization usually sound like some kind of hippie-ish New Age flimflam to you the first 10 or 12 times you hear about them. That's how it was for me anyway, and I'd always laugh a little and shake my head dismissively...

www.girlschase.com

The other alternative is just finding some way to pick up that works with your emotions, instead of constantly dropping you into situations where your emotions play saboteur. e.g., maybe you can't stop yourself from debating girls and being disagreeable in day game, but if you're picking up in loud dance clubs where you run physical game, or you relocate to a tourist hot spot and pick up drunken reveler chicks, you can put your emotions to work as passion and they'll be too drunk to want to debate these things with you anyway so never trigger your "debate her like a man!" instincts.

One more thing I will say is mind that quote from Albert Einstein:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

If you find yourself doing the same thing over and over again, waiting for the result to somehow improve, but they're not, stop being "insane."

Figure out what you need to change. If you can't think of anything, then try doing one thing wildly different than you are right now and see what happens.

That is working smart, in addition to working hard.

Chase

 

[Calibration]

I studied meditation and did a lot of internal work before I ever got into seduction.

Thanks for sharing this article. It was very relatable and scientific. I'm a skeptic and without evidence I find it hard to accept anything. Your articles are just what the doctor prescribed. Looks like I've missed all the good articles that are really important for me, until you point to them.

A couple of questions from the article:
1. That's when you run into the emotional feedback loop. And if you start using this process, you will quickly realize that much of the time, you don't want to change. At least not emotionally. You'll want to change logically; you'll know it's good for you to change and that staying mired in depression and obsessive thought loops is damning yourself to hell. But emotionally, you'll want to stay the same.
This is so true but I want to know why it happens. I couldn't quite get how to overcome this. You suggest to keep at the process and that is what I'm doing. It'd help to know why it happens in the first place so that I can eliminate the root cause.

2. You suggest to enforce positive thoughts while shutting out the negative ones, which I think is a good strategy. You mention, you were starting to cold approach then. How were you shutting out negative thoughts when you faced rejections/failures? This is where my loophole is.

How to Do a 10-Minute Meditation that Eliminates Bad Emotions

I've been meditating since I was 18 years old. That's half a lifetime ago for me now. I didn't get into meditation as part of any kind of spiritual belief system. I prayed as a child when I was a Christian. But by the time I started meditating, I was an atheist. I'm more spiritual again now...

www.girlschase.com

5 Steps that Let You Visualize Anything into Reality

If you're the kind of hard-nosed, stubborn-headed realist I am, things like visualization usually sound like some kind of hippie-ish New Age flimflam to you the first 10 or 12 times you hear about them. That's how it was for me anyway, and I'd always laugh a little and shake my head dismissively...

www.girlschase.com

I'm guilty of this. Having gotten busy with work and socializing, I'm not spending time on self-care, including mediation. I'll get back to this.

The other alternative is just finding some way to pick up that works with your emotions, instead of constantly dropping you into situations where your emotions play saboteur. e.g., maybe you can't stop yourself from debating girls and being disagreeable in day game, but if you're picking up in loud dance clubs where you run physical game, or you relocate to a tourist hot spot and pick up drunken reveler chicks, you can put your emotions to work as passion and they'll be too drunk to want to debate these things with you anyway so never trigger your "debate her like a man!" instincts.

No, I see my mistake clearly now. My mental model is not aligned with my actions causing me to fail. I think I'll fail anywhere I go unless I fix it. I'll start paying attention to it.

One more thing I will say is mind that quote from Albert Einstein:

If you find yourself doing the same thing over and over again, waiting for the result to somehow improve, but they're not, stop being "insane."

I've asked myself this a lot of times. Problem for me to change gears is, I'm not stuck at the beginner stages. Otherwise, I'd have given up long ago I guess. I'm able to go past approach > hook > investment but when it comes to escalation (verbal and physical), I fail. It's mostly verbal, most girls are forgiving of me of what I say since my body language and facial expressions comes across convincing. So, no problem with physical escalation either. I need to work on my verbal + mental model.

If your FEELINGS were "I love women... I want to seduce women... everything women say is silly and cute... I just want to get women into bed, I know they're happiest when with me... but I have to find out if this girl is cool, too... I need to make sure this chick is worthy to be with me... which means she needs to jump through a few hoops I set up for her to show me she has the kind of seductive qualities I am looking for... I don't want to make it too hard for her, of course, but I can't make it too easy... it's my job to lead her through things; I'm the ring master..." -- if your feelings were that, then you could just say whatever you felt and what you said would seduce, because your feelings are in alignment with what you're supposed to be doing.

The stuff in this thread happens because your feelings are not in alignment with seduction, but you are saying what you feel, so the things you say take you farther away from seduction instead of closer and closer to it.

You are going to need to go through a period where, SINCE YOUR FEELINGS ARE OUT OF ALIGNMENT WITH YOUR OBJECT, you ask yourself how you SHOULD respond, then try to respond that way.

I was working earlier when I read this and didn't pay close attention. I asked you a mental model I need to adopt and this sufficiently covers that. I always lacked a sense of purpose of "why I'm talking to her?". Although sex is one aspect, just having that one aspect clouded my whole process and sometimes can come across as needy. This mental model drives my interaction with a purpose.

Thanks again Chase. Really appreciate your help and taking the time to explain.

 

[POB]

I guess I make it a ego battle. I've improved a lot compared to how I was a couple of years ago. Still it shows it's ugly head every now and then.

Yeah, I was like that too.
But as a seducer you have to choose: either you are right and come out on top or you don't give a shit and get laid.

My social media is horrible. I never give out my social media, it basically destroys the value I might've gotten from the interaction.
I say I don't have social media and if the girl insists, I've had times when I've said, it's fine if you don't have WhatsApp, maybe we'll meet in next life, with a wink.

Smart move!

 

[metalbird]

I just want to say, @Calibration, I relate to all of your self-descriptions pretty strongly. It sounds like we have very similar obstacles with women. Also, I'm always impressed with Chase's answers to things.

A couple of things I have noticed about myself: I tend to adopt a weak frame with people I don't know because I know my views are not common. But weak frame is killer to seduction as much as ego is. It feels nigh impossible to strike a balance.

Also, it's not like I just have some random anti-social belief like, "the world is flat", or something that I could reasonably hide in a social interaction. The way I live my life permeates my personality and both intrigues and turns off women.

For example, I don't believe in keeping a lot of material possessions. I've had a lot at times and I've had nothing at times, and I find it very freeing to live a materially simple life, even though I have plenty of money in the bank. I know this view of the world is directly unattractive to most women, so I don't talk about it in an opinionated way. What works for me will not work for most people, and that's okay. But I had a girl back at my place this week who literally told me, stupified, "you're living my nightmare... but you like it..."

So then what can I do to compensate for this? After all, what's really unattractive to women isn't car A vs car B, it's whether or not you demonstrate a certain level of competency at life and social dominance (by having and getting wealth). It's very reasonable for women to look for this quality in mate. So what should I do, print off a copy of my bank statement and give it to them with the zeros highlighted? Obviously not, that would be weird and tryhard.

I also struggle with the desire to be authentic and not hurt women. I've talked to enough people, had enough close female friends, that I'm fairly certain there's another side to this whole seduction picture--the woman's side-- which isn't all just posturing or virtue signaling. Most seduction isn't bad. But there is a small element which the empathetic part of me can't help but feel a little uneasy about. I hate the red pill view that mating is fundamental competitive (rather than cooperative). Part of what I like about this site and its perspective on seduction is that it's highly cooperative between the man and woman when done correctly. When done correctly....

Anyways, I'll be watching your developments with interest, Calibration.

 

[Chase]

Glad it helps, man.

A couple of questions from the article:
1. That's when you run into the emotional feedback loop. And if you start using this process, you will quickly realize that much of the time, you don't want to change. At least not emotionally. You'll want to change logically; you'll know it's good for you to change and that staying mired in depression and obsessive thought loops is damning yourself to hell. But emotionally, you'll want to stay the same.
This is so true but I want to know why it happens. I couldn't quite get how to overcome this. You suggest to keep at the process and that is what I'm doing. It'd help to know why it happens in the first place so that I can eliminate the root cause.

You know your body is a bunch of individual living cells, right? Each one is technically its own organism. They just all work together more or less in unison... most of the time.

Every neuron in your brain is also an individual living thing, and each has its own thing its doing. Then you get clusters of neurons that work together. Then you have bigger clusters. It's almost like having different cliques in a high school. Everyone's part of the same school but they also have their groups.

The cerebral cortex plays a role of inhibitor, deciding which part of the brain is the "winner" in the competition for which gets to be in charge, and which parts get inhibited. The reason you need an inhibitor is because different parts of your brain do not agree. Part A says "We should do this! while Part B says "No way we should do that!" while Part C says "Hey guys, who's up for a little relaxation?" and so on and so forth.

When you are in a current emotional state, that means the part of your brain that is running that state (the group of neurons generating those impulses) is uninhibited, while other parts are suppressed. So, emotionally, even if you say logically, "I should do X," that is still being run through the emotional perspective of the currently uninhibited part of your brain, which is going to disagree with your logic if X goes against what that part of your brain emotionally wants. With some discipline, you can switch which part of your emotional brain is disinhibited and thus currently running the shots vs. which others are inhibited.

In other words... when you are depressed, your "Depression Neuron Cluster" has the rubber stamp from your cerebral cortex to determine the brain's emotional policy for things right now. If you logically suggest, "Hey, how about we not feel depressed?" that thought gets passed to the Depression Neuron Cluster first, which pans the idea. However, if you persist enough to inhibit the Depression Neuron Cluster and call up the Motivator Neuron Cluster instead, suddenly your emotions flip, Motivator is running the show, and this set of neurons says, "Whew! We're finally out of the trunk. Good riddance to those Depression guys; they're a real drag! Hey dude, how about we get this show on the road now?" and you feel like a different person.

It's not that you're actually a different person. It's just that a different cluster of neurons is now running the show as your emotional perspective-makers, while the ones that were in charge a moment ago are inhibited (the depressed neurons are still feeling depressed, but they're cordoned off in the brain again with their hands off the steering wheel).

If you want to understand this more intuitively, here are a few things you can observe:

• Do mind-clearing meditation and focus on identifying and releasing your thoughts. You will probably find about 8-10 different thoughts running through your head at the same time that you were not even consciously aware were there. You will also almost certainly find a song playing in your head you did not realize was playing. How were so many different thoughts all occurring at the same time? Different clusters of neurons within your brain were all focused on thinking different thoughts. You were only consciously aware of one or two of them, because the rest of them were largely suppressed, just running in the background.
  
  
• If you ever experience panic, you will have this feeling of panic coming over you -- but if you have presence of mind you may also have your logical brain objecting to what the panicking part of the brain is saying or doing, even finding its emotions/behavior ridiculous. That raises another question: as you observe your logical mind and panicking mind struggling for control of your faculties, who is doing the observation? That must be yet another group of neurons in your head. You have at least three different neuronal clusters highly active at that time: logic, emotion, and that third party observer, whatever part of the brain that is.

The brain is pretty wild. It's filled with a bunch of chaotic, competing systems of neurons, and they compete all the way down to the level of individual dendrites (extensions from brain cells) up to entire regions of the brain. "You" are really just a collection of squabbling, often-out-of-agreement brain regions held together by temporary truces and sometimes-cooperation.

That's why so much of meditation is about 'taming the mind' -- what that really means is getting all these squabbling, arguing parts of the brain to work together as a more cohesive whole toward a commonly shared objective, instead of always competing with each other and trying to move in opposite directions all the time.

2. You suggest to enforce positive thoughts while shutting out the negative ones, which I think is a good strategy. You mention, you were starting to cold approach then. How were you shutting out negative thoughts when you faced rejections/failures? This is where my loophole is.

It's all down to what you define as success or failure.

When I was just starting out, to me it was all just "practice":

Pickup Practice

If you have a little trouble approaching (or sticking with it after the first few approaches), just switch yourself over to “pickup practice mode.” There are three different 'going out modes' a guy can be in when he might meet girls: Just hanging out mode Make something happen mode Pickup...

www.girlschase.com

Getting rejected itself was a success, because it meant I was finally talking to girls! Wow, I actually talked to a girl, we chatted for a few minutes, then she rejected me! How cool is that!

Once I got to a point closer to where you're at, where I'd been at it for a while but the results weren't really coming in yet, I did have a lot of frustration, which I tackled by every so often making radical tweaks. For instance...

1. I went on a string of dates that did not end in sex, so I abandoned dating almost entirely and focused completely on aiming for one-night stands.
   
   
2. Then I had a bunch of conversations in bars that went well for a while but the girl eventually left, got frustrated, and decided I was going to go for fast escalation and rapid make-outs.
   
   
3. Pretty soon I was kissing girls, grabbing their breasts inside their shirts, and fingering them on the dance floor within 10 or 15 minutes of approaching them, but I kept having them agree to leave the venue with me then "come to their senses" and bail on me. Again, very frustrated.
   
   
4. About that time I signed up for a second bootcamp with the pickup coaching company I'd first coached with, told the coach my woes, and he scolded me that I knew better than to be feeling girls up and making out with them in clubs. So, buoyed knowing that I could get girls so into me so fast, I went back to slowing it down a bit, just doing conversation, but focused more on trying to pull girls home with me now before getting too physical. Then I started pulling.

I don't like being stuck on plateaus though, myself. I see guys stuck on them and am always amazed how long guys will stay on them. I think I'm probably just less patient than most guys are. Most guys will get on plateaus then make these subtle little tweaks to their game, seeing if that changes things.

Every time I hit a plateau in anything, there's only one thought in my mind: "I'm not going to get off this plateau with tiny changes. Some MAJOR piece of success is obviously missing from my approach. I need to figure out what I think that major piece might be, then try out adding it and see if that does anything."

The added benefit of adding new major elements to your approach is you are doing something new, that is exciting; you get hopeful that it will work, so your enthusiasm comes back; and when you start seeing results with it, you get to actually experience wins again, doing this thing you wanted to try doing but weren't certain you could do.

So, ultimately that comes back down to goal setting:

Goal Setting

Goal setting is one of those things that isn’t a tactic, isn’t a technique, and isn’t a methodology, per se, for getting girls or having relationships. It isn’t a cool new trick a guy can go out and employ and net himself a cute, sexy new companion right away, or a means of making the girls he...

www.girlschase.com

Choosing goals that will really stretch you from where you are, that challenge you to try to pull off things outside your normal comfort zone, but that are still within reach for where you're at.

Like if I was you... things to try...

• What would happen if when girls started telling me opinions about stuff, instead of debate with them, I just smiled at them in a sensual way and told them, "I think your opinions are really sexy" and then just held strong, sexy eye contact with them until they cracked? What if I did that with 10 girls and saw which girls didn't like it and which girls LOVED it?
  
  
• What would happen if I'm escalating on a girl and she resists and I try XYZ new LMR tactic I've read about but never tried before? There are a lot of LMR tactics; there are probably more than a few you have not tried yet.
  
  
• What would happen if when girls asked me tricky questions, I answered with something a bit silly, a something a bit playful, instead of some logical factual thing that pisses girls off? Like she asks me what I think about XYZ topic, and I give just some really absurd answer? "What do you think about aboriginal feminism?" --> "I think it's clearly what society needs. I'm thinking about becoming an aboriginal feminist myself." Etc.

Gotta test new stuff out. It's how you keep things fresh and continue to have within-reach goals to strive for (then the goal is not just "get the girl" but "see if I can have this affect / achieve this specific smaller outcome with girls" which, in the process of achieving that outcome, also causes you to improve with women overall).

Chase

 

[Calibration]

I just want to say, @Calibration, I relate to all of your self-descriptions pretty strongly. It sounds like we have very similar obstacles with women. Also, I'm always impressed with Chase's answers to things.

A couple of things I have noticed about myself: I tend to adopt a weak frame with people I don't know because I know my views are not common. But weak frame is killer to seduction as much as ego is. It feels nigh impossible to strike a balance.

Also, it's not like I just have some random anti-social belief like, "the world is flat", or something that I could reasonably hide in a social interaction. The way I live my life permeates my personality and both intrigues and turns off women.

For example, I don't believe in keeping a lot of material possessions. I've had a lot at times and I've had nothing at times, and I find it very freeing to live a materially simple life, even though I have plenty of money in the bank. I know this view of the world is directly unattractive to most women, so I don't talk about it in an opinionated way. What works for me will not work for most people, and that's okay. But I had a girl back at my place this week who literally told me, stupified, "you're living my nightmare... but you like it..."

I felt like I was reading my mind out aloud. Specially this
Even I'm a minimalist. I live in a nice luxurious apartment but have just only what I need. So it's hard to justify my lifestyle sometimes.

 

[Calibration]

I read it a few times for all of it to just sink in and also cos I like the way you write. It's scientific, yet easy to follow and relate. Besides, I can sense the passion of what you're wanting to say. If you're so passionate in explaining to some random dude on the internet who you've not met, I can imagine how passionate you'll be when deep-diving chicks. Inspiring!

I watch a lot of animal documentaries, specially lion documentaries and anything from David Attenborough. I didn't reveal that I watch documentaries to chics, thinking it's a bit nerdy. But recently, I was running out of topics and she wasn't giving much and I jumped onto topic of lion documentaries and talked about it passionately, she said "I've never watched any documentaries in my life but listening to you and your passion for it, makes it very interesting to me".

I then realized that just deep-diving won't cut it but doing so passionately does. I've had times when I just deep-dived like an interview if the chic was not very actively participating or was boring. I'd like to know how you deep-dive so passionately. Maybe a topic for another day or for your post on GC. Anyway, I got distracted.

Glad it helps, man.

You know your body is a bunch of individual living cells, right? Each one is technically its own organism. They just all work together more or less in unison... most of the time.

Every neuron in your brain is also an individual living thing, and each has its own thing its doing. Then you get clusters of neurons that work together. Then you have bigger clusters. It's almost like having different cliques in a high school. Everyone's part of the same school but they also have their groups.

The cerebral cortex plays a role of inhibitor, deciding which part of the brain is the "winner" in the competition for which gets to be in charge, and which parts get inhibited. The reason you need an inhibitor is because different parts of your brain do not agree. Part A says "We should do this! while Part B says "No way we should do that!" while Part C says "Hey guys, who's up for a little relaxation?" and so on and so forth.

When you are in a current emotional state, that means the part of your brain that is running that state (the group of neurons generating those impulses) is uninhibited, while other parts are suppressed. So, emotionally, even if you say logically, "I should do X," that is still being run through the emotional perspective of the currently uninhibited part of your brain, which is going to disagree with your logic if X goes against what that part of your brain emotionally wants. With some discipline, you can switch which part of your emotional brain is disinhibited and thus currently running the shots vs. which others are inhibited.

In other words... when you are depressed, your "Depression Neuron Cluster" has the rubber stamp from your cerebral cortex to determine the brain's emotional policy for things right now. If you logically suggest, "Hey, how about we not feel depressed?" that thought gets passed to the Depression Neuron Cluster first, which pans the idea. However, if you persist enough to inhibit the Depression Neuron Cluster and call up the Motivator Neuron Cluster instead, suddenly your emotions flip, Motivator is running the show, and this set of neurons says, "Whew! We're finally out of the trunk. Good riddance to those Depression guys; they're a real drag! Hey dude, how about we get this show on the road now?" and you feel like a different person.

It's not that you're actually a different person. It's just that a different cluster of neurons is now running the show as your emotional perspective-makers, while the ones that were in charge a moment ago are inhibited (the depressed neurons are still feeling depressed, but they're cordoned off in the brain again with their hands off the steering wheel).

After reading all this and from your link to depression post, I realised a very very important thing. More like an epiphany:

Before I knew pick-up, I was still getting laid but the problem was I didn't have a process. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't.
However, my self-esteem was very high.
I didn't care much about rejections cos back then just talking to a chic, flirting with her, make outs here and there etc were equally satisfying as sex. So, my mind registered that as successes, positive results etc forming positive neural pathways. However, due to lack of process and end-goal in mind, it always didn't end up in sex.

After I started pickup I got very good results in the beginning but as time passed, I forgot to enjoy and pay attention to the process and focused only on end results I.e sex (but only metaphorically, unfortunately).

Since I didn't follow the process very well, I didn't end up getting successful results either. This created a feedback loop, causing me to feel more and more frustrated.

In physiological sense, focusing only on sex and not acknowledging tiny wins created a perception of failures causing my brain to perceive it as negative causing negative neural pathways. This forces me to self-sabotage unconsciously when things are not going my way at every step. Since my emotional brain or the "depression neuron cluster" is activated whenever I'm in an interaction with a chic and it forces me to say or do things that causes me to fail. This results in loss of self-esteem and the cycle repeats.

If you want to understand this more intuitively, here are a few things you can observe:

• Do mind-clearing meditation and focus on identifying and releasing your thoughts. You will probably find about 8-10 different thoughts running through your head at the same time that you were not even consciously aware were there. You will also almost certainly find a song playing in your head you did not realize was playing. How were so many different thoughts all occurring at the same time? Different clusters of neurons within your brain were all focused on thinking different thoughts. You were only consciously aware of one or two of them, because the rest of them were largely suppressed, just running in the background.
  
  
• If you ever experience panic, you will have this feeling of panic coming over you -- but if you have presence of mind you may also have your logical brain objecting to what the panicking part of the brain is saying or doing, even finding its emotions/behavior ridiculous. That raises another question: as you observe your logical mind and panicking mind struggling for control of your faculties, who is doing the observation? That must be yet another group of neurons in your head. You have at least three different neuronal clusters highly active at that time: logic, emotion, and that third party observer, whatever part of the brain that is.

The brain is pretty wild. It's filled with a bunch of chaotic, competing systems of neurons, and they compete all the way down to the level of individual dendrites (extensions from brain cells) up to entire regions of the brain. "You" are really just a collection of squabbling, often-out-of-agreement brain regions held together by temporary truces and sometimes-cooperation.

That's why so much of meditation is about 'taming the mind' -- what that really means is getting all these squabbling, arguing parts of the brain to work together as a more cohesive whole toward a commonly shared objective, instead of always competing with each other and trying to move in opposite directions all the time.



It's all down to what you define as success or failure.

When I was just starting out, to me it was all just "practice":

Pickup Practice

If you have a little trouble approaching (or sticking with it after the first few approaches), just switch yourself over to “pickup practice mode.” There are three different 'going out modes' a guy can be in when he might meet girls: Just hanging out mode Make something happen mode Pickup...

www.girlschase.com

Getting rejected itself was a success, because it meant I was finally talking to girls! Wow, I actually talked to a girl, we chatted for a few minutes, then she rejected me! How cool is that!

Once I got to a point closer to where you're at, where I'd been at it for a while but the results weren't really coming in yet, I did have a lot of frustration, which I tackled by every so often making radical tweaks. For instance...

1. I went on a string of dates that did not end in sex, so I abandoned dating almost entirely and focused completely on aiming for one-night stands.
   
   
2. Then I had a bunch of conversations in bars that went well for a while but the girl eventually left, got frustrated, and decided I was going to go for fast escalation and rapid make-outs.
   
   
3. Pretty soon I was kissing girls, grabbing their breasts inside their shirts, and fingering them on the dance floor within 10 or 15 minutes of approaching them, but I kept having them agree to leave the venue with me then "come to their senses" and bail on me. Again, very frustrated.
   
   
4. About that time I signed up for a second bootcamp with the pickup coaching company I'd first coached with, told the coach my woes, and he scolded me that I knew better than to be feeling girls up and making out with them in clubs. So, buoyed knowing that I could get girls so into me so fast, I went back to slowing it down a bit, just doing conversation, but focused more on trying to pull girls home with me now before getting too physical. Then I started pulling.

I don't like being stuck on plateaus though, myself. I see guys stuck on them and am always amazed how long guys will stay on them. I think I'm probably just less patient than most guys are. Most guys will get on plateaus then make these subtle little tweaks to their game, seeing if that changes things.

Every time I hit a plateau in anything, there's only one thought in my mind: "I'm not going to get off this plateau with tiny changes. Some MAJOR piece of success is obviously missing from my approach. I need to figure out what I think that major piece might be, then try out adding it and see if that does anything."

The added benefit of adding new major elements to your approach is you are doing something new, that is exciting; you get hopeful that it will work, so your enthusiasm comes back; and when you start seeing results with it, you get to actually experience wins again, doing this thing you wanted to try doing but weren't certain you could do.

So, ultimately that comes back down to goal setting:

Goal Setting

Goal setting is one of those things that isn’t a tactic, isn’t a technique, and isn’t a methodology, per se, for getting girls or having relationships. It isn’t a cool new trick a guy can go out and employ and net himself a cute, sexy new companion right away, or a means of making the girls he...

www.girlschase.com

Choosing goals that will really stretch you from where you are, that challenge you to try to pull off things outside your normal comfort zone, but that are still within reach for where you're at.

Like if I was you... things to try...

• What would happen if when girls started telling me opinions about stuff, instead of debate with them, I just smiled at them in a sensual way and told them, "I think your opinions are really sexy" and then just held strong, sexy eye contact with them until they cracked? What if I did that with 10 girls and saw which girls didn't like it and which girls LOVED it?
  
  
• What would happen if I'm escalating on a girl and she resists and I try XYZ new LMR tactic I've read about but never tried before? There are a lot of LMR tactics; there are probably more than a few you have not tried yet.
  
  
• What would happen if when girls asked me tricky questions, I answered with something a bit silly, a something a bit playful, instead of some logical factual thing that pisses girls off? Like she asks me what I think about XYZ topic, and I give just some really absurd answer? "What do you think about aboriginal feminism?" --> "I think it's clearly what society needs. I'm thinking about becoming an aboriginal feminist myself." Etc.

Gotta test new stuff out. It's how you keep things fresh and continue to have within-reach goals to strive for (then the goal is not just "get the girl" but "see if I can have this affect / achieve this specific smaller outcome with girls" which, in the process of achieving that outcome, also causes you to improve with women overall).

Chase

So, I need to start doing a number of things:
- I need to start forming positive neural pathways by enjoying every interaction without labelling anything that doesn't end up in bed as failure.
- Be mindful of the process leading up to successful result
- If I'm being mindful of the process, I'll be mindful of every step I take during the whole seduction journey and won't end up blurting out anything or doing things that aren't conducive to seduction.
- In order to accelerate all of this, I need to start meditating to keep myself focused in the present moment - in the process.
- If I'm conscious of the process, it should also enable me to make tweaks continuously to fine tune easily.
- With the new tweaks that I make, I need to experiment them which brings closer to closer to my goal
- I also need to cut some slack with failures and just learn them as experience for the next one instead of falling back on negative thought patterns.
- Constantly check on myself whether what I'm doing is aiding or hurting me.

(I'm just writing this as a note to myself to come back to it regularly)

Anyway, this all felt like a jigsaw puzzle and I wouldn't have been able to decipher it, without your help and others here. Thanks Chase, I can't be more thankful.

 

[Alpha13SC]

It happened twice in a row:

1) I met a chic in the park 2 days ago and we were having a great time. She was an architect. She was very hot and driven in life and overly ambitious. Ambition is good but if someone takes it too far to the extent of feeling sad and depressed when it's not working, I find it repulsive.

I should've just shut up and listened to what she had to say but I gave my view of how life is so beautiful when you live in the present moment and not too caught up in the rat race etc. She said "don't try to cut my wings" and didn't like it obviously. Energy dropped instantly and saw her facial expression and body language change.
After sometime she got up saying she wants to make a phone call and left. How would you recover from it?
In retrospect, firstly I should've just not got into that discussion but I didn't know she wouldn't like it and secondly, I felt I should've just got up and left when the energy dropped.

2) Yesterday I took a chic on Instant date and she was very bubbly throughout the date for almost an hour, then she asked me something and she didn't like what I said.
Her energy dropped immediately and I continued talking normally but I noticed it was not the same. After sometime, she said she wants to leave since she has to make a phone call soon. We paid up quickly and left and she literally was walking at running speed before we parted ways.
In retrospect, after the energy dropped, I felt I should've just said, "Look, something changed, I don't know what. I'm not feeling it anymore. Let's leave".

These are 2 instances but in general, I feel more than what I'm saying, it's about my energy that I project that repulses them.
This happens when I have some strong beliefs which goes against her beliefs OR it could be when I have some limiting beliefs of myself and I feel challenged and I try to overcompensate by trying hard OR it's something that she wasn't expecting and I can't change it (for ex: age, lifestyle etc)

I don't want to come across as try-hard to please her by changing my response or something cos it's already admitted and I don't want to lie. I also don't want to walk away defiant being butt-hurt. What's the best strategy?

So, my question is:
1. What can you do to stop the energy dwindling, when you say something that she doesn't like?
2. If it does happen and the energy changes, is it better to auto-reject or plow by changing subject (which is what I try doing but it doesn't work)

For me, it s more of a matter of prioritizing. Do you value more having near you people who 100% think like you/should have your conclusions/should submit to you or what reason might be who can start a battle frame and screen out everybody who doesn t or the experience between you and them?

Because the 1st one retain fewer people while the latter focus on the congruences, on the vibe between you and them, and how can you go around some differences in order to build what you want to build.

It s appealing to get into a subject and prove them wrong but remember the main goal, which is your dick in her pussy. And at that point she may have have some lunatic dreams and plans, they re irrelevant. Job is done.

Alpha13SC

 

[Calibration]

For me, it s more of a matter of prioritizing. Do you value more having near you people who 100% think like you/should have your conclusions/should submit to you or what reason might be who can start a battle frame and screen out everybody who doesn t or the experience between you and them?

Because the 1st one retain fewer people while the latter focus on the congruences, on the vibe between you and them, and how can you go around some differences in order to build what you want to build.

It s appealing to get into a subject and prove them wrong but remember the main goal, which is your dick in her pussy. And at that point she may have have some lunatic dreams and plans, they re irrelevant. Job is done.

Alpha13SC

With chics, yes I have to start doing this. Are you agreeable only with chics or friends/people in general?