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Poor fundamentals and getting attractive women. Does this actually happen?

raiden

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
128
Okay: so height and race you cannot change, so it's better to own it than to feel that these are terrible. Regarding height, the impact this is actually having will depend how extreme this is. You know, if you're 5 foot 4, or 6 foot 6, then sure, it's on the uncommonly short or tall side for a man, but ultimately no biggie at all if you have confidence and charisma, etc. But if you're 4 foot 9, or 7 foot, then you have probably got a more limited pool of women who'll be receptive.

Regarding race and this being also something that seems to matter in your town, I'd be wondering if you even want to be making long-term plans in that kind of town. I know lots of people who've not only changed towns but also countries.

There are no fixed phases. I'm pretty sure there are people dating in their 80s and good for them.

Who says you 'should' be in a relationship and maybe family planning? I'm not saying these things are wrong; they're goals a lot of people have. And if you want that, then great. But a lot of that's just cultural baggage that gets dumped on us. It's also okay to enjoy having freedom.

The idea is that confidence and charisma can overcome deficient height but my experiences seem to indicate that I was dismissed before I could even express any confidence or charisma. For me, I have bills to pay and family (siblings, parents etc.) to support here. I wouldn't realistically be able to move town or country. For reference, I actually live in a big city and that's probably why there are many events like this on almost every week.

I say that I should be in that stage because I want to have a family. I want to have a child or children. I'm planning to get my fertility assessed and freeze my sperm if applicable, but that's not the point. The point is that I don't want to be 45 or 50 with my first kid because then I'll be 55 or 60 when that kid is around 10 with less physical energy to keep up with him/her. I also have extended family and friends starting their family or with multiple kids.

First of all, fundamentals are not just height and race. Posture, eye contact, smile, voice tonality, etc can completely eclipse those immediate visual characteristics within a couple of seconds. Women often gauge men intuitively and very quickly based on these things. If you are walking around looking like you're feeling like shit, expect women to reject you immediately. But when you have those dialed in, women usually give you a few seconds of curiosity time to see what you are about, and that's often more than enough.

What also matters a LOT is how you react to a lukewarm or cold response. Some women believe that guys of certain characteristics are weak/clingy/needy/whatever, and will immediately put out a response that is basically designed to elicit the reaction she expects, or defend against it. If you are being emotionally reactive to her initial barrier, that's going to put you in to 'no' bucket right away. You have to make her realize in a few seconds 'oh this guy is different from what I expected'.

These two things matter way more than your height and race, but it can be hard to separate the effects when you go in anxious with the expectation of being rejected for the things you can't change.



If a woman really dislikes your 'fundamentals' (by which I assume you mean your height and race) then it's unlikely things will pan out. Usually a woman is at least ambivalent about you at first sight. The rest of the fundamentals I mentioned (which you can change) can move things from 'ambivalent' all the way to 'very interested' in a short time.

I don't believe these women are disqualifying you immediately for your height and race. I believe they're reacting to your vibe which is broadcasting 'I'm walking into a defeat here and there's nothing I can do'. Any sort of vibe like that is absolute poison for seduction.

Or, if not that, then your changeable fundamentals are probably a lot more out of shape than you think, and their first impression of you is not good enough.

I probably do have that vibe but my motto is to stay in the set no matter how uncomfortable it seems to be. I must only get rejected but never reject myself. That's why you see that the women bailed on me rather than me ejecting. That's how it went for the one woman who said yes to a date. I had been having a bad day up until that point but I just stuck in set and then asked her to sit down, and then things went well. But, ostensibly due to my fundamentals, that routine wouldn't work on the other women.

I used to do vocal coaching and my coach (professional speech therapist) said that I do not need coaching any more after just 2 sessions. I have stopped doing the vocal exercises but I could go back. Posture is easily addressed by doing a mobility routine before entering the event. My lousy genetics and advanced age stop me from getting into better shape than I'm in. What other stuff do I need to work on or dial in before the next event? I can prepare a few canned openers and conversational gambits such as Chase's "show me your hands" routine.
 
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Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,130
Dude I have been on this journey for like 8 years at this point, reading GC (not necessarily following it) and trying to go on dates with the aim of getting a girlfriend. I'm a sick SOB. It also feels unnatural for a middle aged guy like me to still be in the dating phase of my life. It feels like I should have moved on from struggling with the dating game to struggling with relationship game, if not doing stuff like family planning.

If I have crappy vibes or energy then I can accept that and work on it. But I still want to determine whether it's that or my fundamentals. What complicates things a little is that my usual vibe, energy and opener worked well on one woman.

My fundamentals suck because I'm deficient in height and race, and these seem to matter here in my town. Dating coaches in the past have approved my clothing, hair style, beard style and body shape.
Height and race is no fundamentals... fundamentals is things you can control...i seen plenty of short guys and ethnic getting laid...

Teevester us short
James d is ethnic

I am ethnic and old i mean this is an easy way to cope... If your fundamentals suck. Max them out and shut the fuck uo...plenty of post of maxing out fundies
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

raiden

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
128
Height and race is no fundamentals... fundamentals is things you can control...i seen plenty of short guys and ethnic getting laid...

Teevester us short
James d is ethnic

I am ethnic and old i mean this is an easy way to cope... If your fundamentals suck. Max them out and shut the fuck uo...plenty of post of maxing out fundies

Wouldn't we define fundamentals as "anything that can get you approach invitations"? If we did, height and race might be important fundamentals.

Anyway, how do I max out my fundamentals? And also, isn't there a risk that with maxed out fundamentals, I still can't get the results that I want? I really need to become like the fat or ugly guys who get women i.e. learn sans fundamentals game. The reason why I'm thinking this way is because I feel like I just have a few years left to achieve what I want to, so I have to do the thing that has the best chance of success. If my fundamentals need to be written off and I need to learn a different style of game e.g. heavily routine based, I should start now.
 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
2,237
I used to do vocal coaching and my coach (professional speech therapist) said that I do not need coaching any more after just 2 sessions. I have stopped doing the vocal exercises but I could go back. Posture is easily addressed by doing a mobility routine before entering the event. My lousy genetics and advanced age stop me from getting into better shape than I'm in. What other stuff do I need to work on or dial in before the next event? I can prepare a few canned openers and conversational gambits such as Chase's "show me your hands" routine.

Creating a great first impression with your voice is more than just going to a speech therapist for a few sessions. Was this coach coaching you on seduction? Most people do not need speech therapy as such, but that doesn't mean their voices are seductive or particularly engaging.

Posture is not 'easily addressed' by doing some mobility routine, the characteristics of someone's posture are learned (and unlearned) based on years of experience of moving around in the world and the reactions they get. Your posture is a reflection of how you see yourself, not simply a question of good or bad mobility. Your momentary emotions, your fleeting thoughts, and your unconscious reactions live in the contours of your back and the tension in your limbs.

Much, much more important (and no less of a task to change) is the expression on your face, which again is a reflection of how you see yourself reflected in your environment, in your mind's eye, and in the eyes of others. Many people, especially those who are depressed or anxious, become blind to the woodenness, the painful tensions, and the fleeting negative expressions that cris-cross their faces, so accustomed are they to seeing it that they no longer know what warmth and beauty their face was once capable of showing. I was one of them.

An easy, graceful posture, a spontaneously warm and inviting smile, a soft gaze, and a resonant, engaging voice, are not a product of some routine but a conscious day to day experience of life. They are things that require careful and constant growth and regrowth, and vigilant protection from resentment, bitterness, and desperation, small amounts of which can utterly destroy them.

When you are someone who is, has been, or perceives themselves to be in great difficulty in life, you have no choice but to learn to live with your circumstances with the same grace and self-assured confidence as someone who has none of your problems, if you want to have the same effect and impression on the world around you.

I would never say it's an easy task, but I can't think of a more important one.
 

Atlas IV

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
May 21, 2023
Messages
576
Creating a great first impression with your voice is more than just going to a speech therapist for a few sessions. Was this coach coaching you on seduction? Most people do not need speech therapy as such, but that doesn't mean their voices are seductive or particularly engaging.

Posture is not 'easily addressed' by doing some mobility routine, the characteristics of someone's posture are learned (and unlearned) based on years of experience of moving around in the world and the reactions they get. Your posture is a reflection of how you see yourself, not simply a question of good or bad mobility. Your momentary emotions, your fleeting thoughts, and your unconscious reactions live in the contours of your back and the tension in your limbs.

Much, much more important (and no less of a task to change) is the expression on your face, which again is a reflection of how you see yourself reflected in your environment, in your mind's eye, and in the eyes of others. Many people, especially those who are depressed or anxious, become blind to the woodenness, the painful tensions, and the fleeting negative expressions that cris-cross their faces, so accustomed are they to seeing it that they no longer know what warmth and beauty their face was once capable of showing. I was one of them.

An easy, graceful posture, a spontaneously warm and inviting smile, a soft gaze, and a resonant, engaging voice, are not a product of some routine but a conscious day to day experience of life. They are things that require careful and constant growth and regrowth, and vigilant protection from resentment, bitterness, and desperation, small amounts of which can utterly destroy them.

When you are someone who is, has been, or perceives themselves to be in great difficulty in life, you have no choice but to learn to live with your circumstances with the same grace and self-assured confidence as someone who has none of your problems, if you want to have the same effect and impression on the world around you.

I would never say it's an easy task, but I can't think of a more important one.
Best response of the thread.
 

Chase

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,562
If I have crappy vibes or energy then I can accept that and work on it. But I still want to determine whether it's that or my fundamentals. What complicates things a little is that my usual vibe, energy and opener worked well on one woman.

My fundamentals suck because I'm deficient in height and race, and these seem to matter here in my town. Dating coaches in the past have approved my clothing, hair style, beard style and body shape.

Arguably the most important (and overlooked) category of fundamental is your social fundamentals.

That is stuff like:

  • How adept a conversationalist you are
  • How good you are at getting people to like you
  • How charming and charismatic you are
  • Your sense of humor
  • Your positivity / energy / vibe
  • How skilled you are at holding frame
  • How socially aware you are (able to read & respond to signals)
  • Your degree of social calibration

Etc. etc.

I have known short, ugly, minority guys who cleaned up with girls because they had ridiculous social fundamentals.

Some of them had beer bellies, average guy fashion senses, etc.

Though I am pretty sure all the ones I've known had great posture, eye contact, smiling, etc.

(I did know a player with poor posture who got laid a lot, but he was a good-looking guy with master-level social skills, so he could afford to slack off in a few places.)

If your social fundamentals are bad, it is pretty hard to learn exceptional technical game. Technical game requires calibration, and calibration relies on social awareness and social skills (i.e., social fundamentals).

What you will typically see with the guys who cannot improve their social fundamentals (e.g., autistic men, etc.) is that they often pair up with atypical women of some sort or another... usually women that seek out them.

For a guy like this I would usually recommend focusing on building social status in ways that women will be exposed to. Manager at work with a team under him, public speaker, teacher/trainer, etc. Generally these will also force you to improve your social fundamentals, so then you are tackling it from more than one angle. This way, you are visible and offsetting some of the social skills quirks with an attractive social status, at least. There are some women who highly value social status, to the point that they are willing to overlook quirkiness to a degree. Girls who go for the quirky, cranky professor, for instance.

Chase
 

Ratata

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Sep 14, 2024
Messages
42
Which one of your fundamentals suck? Can you please expand upon the fundamentals that you suck at? Makes it easier to help you when you are specific.

At the first event I went to, I said hi to lots of women but most of them had to get going to the bathroom or something. I tried to ask one out but I got dismissed with a suggestion to follow on Instagram. I even remember saying hi to a woman and having her say hi and then turn and walk right away.

This is telling. It tells me that you have zero presence, and that you probably enter with a begging mindset (a needy mindset, seeking approval, taking value). I.e. you really want to impress her, or hope that she likes you.

Stop it!

During the talk, she mentioned that she noticed me and hoped that I might talk to her. That disappointed me because it meant that this was a missed approach invitation, and that I didn't get the date because of my social skills etc but just because of my fundamentals.

Dude, do you not see the irony here? You complain about some "lacking fundementals", yet here you are, actually talking to her, having her in your lap as it were! Why on earth would you complain about "fundamentals" when you already got her? I mean, she even confessed that she hoped you'd talk to her! Wtf?

I was using the same indirect opener throughout the night. One woman hooked and we agreed a date. Everything else was a blow out.

In other words, you had success, yet somehow you feel the need to continue focussing on the negative?

Here's a really simple solution for you: Stop focussing on lacking fundamentals. Start focussing on every positive interaction like that. Focus on everything that goes right. Be thankful for it. Bask in the moment of it. Write journals, nay, write songs about it!

After finishing with that woman I tried to chat with more women around the room and I got basically the same reception as I did at the first event with women saying that they were on their way out when I said hi to them or needing to leave the area to look for somebody elsewhere in the bar.

You basically continued taking value.

Next time you go to a singles event, I want you to use this strategy. It's not new. It's called Being The Mayor, and it was originally coined by Brent Smith, the lifestyle coach not the musician.

PART ONE

Say hello to everyone. And I mean that literally. When you're done you should have greeted everyone in the room. Cheer everyone. Look into their glassy, soulless eyes, and then smile, toast, or do a greeting gesture. Then say these magical words: "What's up!"

If they don't respond, then you could work on your projection and energy. But equally, you could also work on simply getting their non-verbal attention before speaking; stuff like getting eye contact first, or tapping them gently on the shoulder, and so on (notice that you aren't bound to vocal projection here, tho it helps). Only then do you speak. Best of all, then you don't even need projection because you've already got their attention.

This is merely the first part of the strategy, but the one you need to master the soonest, because without it, people will continue acting disinterested in you no matter how cool your Strawberry routine is, or no matter how you've perfected the line "Who lies more; men or women?"

PART DEUX

Have a short conversation with them. Make sure it's not longer than two minutes. (!!!!) 😳 (I'll get back to why later.) If it goes on for longer than two minutes, cut it off like the butcher cuts off the chicken's neck. (The exception is ofc if a hot girl is really into you, hawks your attention, keeps holding your hand, and throws herself around your neck. Then obviously bring her somewhere private, make out with her and take her home. I thought I just mention that in case you're retarded.)

Problem: How do you freaking have a short conversation with random people? Omg, that's scary and uncomfortable shit when you don't know how!

Well, here comes a skill that's super important in impersonal spaces: Mingling. You have to master the art of meaningless small-talk. I can understand it if you have something against this quite frankly horrible social practise, but for now I want you to absolutely fall in love with small talk. Live and breathe small talk. Your entire life turns around the ability to say meaningless pleasantries in the most artful, charming and seductive way. Your goal now is to become James Bond, the Casanova of cocktail parties, the Don Juan of pointless bus stop conversations. But only for two minutes, mkay.

So, what do you say? Well, the most common idea is to make some sort of observation about them. Say after me: "Make an observation!" Preferably a positive one. But it's kind of situational. Like if you went "My god you look smart today. Look at that dress!" that would posit that the person actually has a cool dress on them.

If you don't notice something particular, just make some general remark (you can invent more of these, write them down, and have a short list in your back-pocket or on your phone if this makes you really nervous): "What's up. You look like the party tonight!" If they look kinda bored you can even ask a general question: "What's up. Where's the party at?" Or default to an observation: "My god you look like you're bored out of your mind!" Um, no, don't say that... Say only positive things. So instead say "What's up. You look like the coolest / chillest gang in here." There, much better! Point being, you're either making some low key observation (task: invent more of them and then memorize so you're not stumped when you're in the thick of it), or you're asking a really general question that makes their brains want to help you out a little.

Equally, there's a also bunch of things you're not doing. You're not trying to impress them. You're just being social, sharing some moments, and trying to spread some positive and even fun vibes. That's it! They're probably bored out of their mind anyway, so you don't have to be this comedian. It's enough that you make a positive observation about them. Be creative here. Tough fair warning, never comment body physique. (I mean, you can try, but I'm sure you'll see the fallout of doing that really quick, hope you're good at martial arts...) Instead, clothes, what their drinking, their general mood (chill, rowdy, calm, laughing, sad, etc), is something to make a positive observation about. That's usually enough to spark a very short conversation. And here's the best part: Since it's short, you never have to worry much about what to say. In fact, if a conversation ever goes stale, just tell them "Well, nice talking to ya." and then bounce.

So, why are you going around spouting pleasantries and subjecting yourself to the torture of small talk anyway? Well, to get on their radar as a social and normal dude. You're no longer a threat. You're no longer a beggar. You're simply that guy who seems a bit interested in people. Moreover, they can see you talking to all the others as well, so they will conclude that you are socially savvy, and that you perhaps even have some social value in the venue. This will make opening those really hot girls a lot easier later on. Moreover, you don't want to be caught up in a longer conversation - especially not with a bunch of male nerds - because your deeper goal for the night is to get on the radar of hot girls. (A-haaa!) See, this is why you have to cut off the head of that turkey and move on to the next set within two minutes. Which brings us to the next part.

PART THREE

Axing it. How?

Here's how: "Well, it was really nice chatting with you guys! But I should really tend to my friends (hint at the next table). Tho if you wanna chat more, then I'll be at the bar later!" Then simply leave. Move to the next set. Rinse and repeat.

Ofc respect them if they're mid-sentence. But when they shut up, then politely end the conversation. Use the excuse that you need to socialize a bit with your "friends." It doesn't even matter if it's true or not, it'll continue the impression that you're a cool and normal social guy - someone who's neither begging, nor a threat to them, but even someone they might like to talk to later.

Btw. at this stage, if it goes well, don't be surprised if some of the guys you meet wants to buy you drinks or even present you to the single girls in their group. If so, just accept it and be thankful. If you're not drinking, simply give the drink to someone else later lol. How's that about offering value!

Why do you get so much for free when you act like this? Well, because you're not begging. As I mentioned before, you're not there to impress anyone, but simply to be social, meet people and add to the fun. And when you actually do that, instead of trying to impress anyone - and least of all that hot girl - then you instantly become the prize and people want to get to know you.

This even gives you the moral high ground if someone for whatever reason should be cranky or mean. Then simply go "Sorry, I didn't mean to impose myself. I was just trying to be social." Then leave. Do not try to change their mind. Simply chase the good vibes in the room. More often than not, people will understand that they made an ass out of themselves when they see you socializing and having fun with other people. If so, don't even be surprised of they come and apologize to you later. That's how powerful this socialization strategy is. If you take this seriously, it will literally make you the most popular guy in the room.

Part four of this strategy is noticing the proximity of hot girls, IOIs (which you should check for continuously), and when warm sets with hot girls present themselves. And they will do so the entire night. Later on, when you're chilling at the bar, don't be surprised if girls give you a lot of proximity. Then capitalize on it, and speak to the ones that you like. Moreover, it makes it really simple to take them home (see other posts about compliance, isolation, escalation and the art of taking her for some "fresh air" or "food").

Anyway, this should fix all lacking fundamentals in the social department. I hope the next things you complain about are about LMR, how much viagra you should use when with a girl, or how to train your tongue to give her maximum clitoral pleasure.
 

gameboy

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 7, 2023
Messages
1,229
I'm still wondering what was wrong with the girl who did like you. Was she fat? Crazy? If not, why not date her and start a family with her?
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,130
Wouldn't we define fundamentals as "anything that can get you approach invitations"? If we did, height and race might be important fundamentals.

Anyway, how do I max out my fundamentals? And also, isn't there a risk that with maxed out fundamentals, I still can't get the results that I want? I really need to become like the fat or ugly guys who get women i.e. learn sans fundamentals game. The reason why I'm thinking this way is because I feel like I just have a few years left to achieve what I want to, so I have to do the thing that has the best chance of success. If my fundamentals need to be written off and I need to learn a different style of game e.g. heavily routine based, I should start now.
Here is by chase;

 
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