She gets COMPETITIVE after I disqualify myself as a boyfriend

[Jan]

It happened to me several times that a woman gets FRAME COMPETITIVE after I disqualify myself as a boyfriend.

Usually she frames the situation as a date leading to a relationship, while I try to frame it as something leading to sex or FWB.

I want to make it a COOPERATIVE situation for both of us, so we both can benefit. However, usually after I disqualify myself (leading to her disappointment) she builds a massive emotional or intellectual wall at this point. And from now on its either "my way or no way." If I let her happen her way, usually we would have sex once or twice then I would stop contacting her and she would be unhappy (as her expectations of our a relationship didn't play out as expected). So basically this is ok for me, but as I said I would rather make win-win for both us. Win-win as I see it - do not go into a relationship path and save her from disappointment later, instead have sex now with everything being clear from the get go.

I thought that the problem is poor communication of SEXUAL VALUE. So I tried few times to get into sexual topics early (before disqualifying myself), but it leads to nowhere because she REJECTS my lead to sexual vibe (still in the boyfriend zone I guess). I guess I'm CREEPY if I get sexual at this point.

What would you guys suggest?

 

[StrayDog]

How exactly are you disqualifying your self as a boyfriend and framing yourself as a lover? Are you doing this very directly or on the sly? This makes a big difference. If you just outright state these things you are pretty much asking for a frame battle.
Also you mention bringing up sexual conversation. How are you framing these conversations? How are you leading into them? Calibration is key here.

Setting frames is like planting seeds. You can't expect to pluck the fruit right away. Sometimes you can just go big and bold with a women, granted she is giving strong signals and your game is strong to match, but most of the time you have to start small and subtly water the seed. Dropping subcommunications, changing the subject fractionating, coming back to the subject and adding more to it. You end up painting a pretty clear picture with out outright saying it. This gives her the chance to buy into the frame one small moment at a time. Since you are calibrating the frame to her as an individual then she has the opportunity to invest in it one step at a time. She is a part of the process and has essentially collaborated on the frame with you. Since you are fractionating she has already bought in to a smaller precedence by the time you reach a bigger escalation. When you do it this way, any friction you get when laying a frame allows you to gather information about how she sees the world and calibrate to that. For example If you say something like
"Sponaiety is the spice of life"
and she says
"I personally always like structure"
you have a small frame battle. Spontaneity is generally more conducive to casually flings, where as structure is more typically associated with long term relationships. So now you gather more info by asking questions and exploring ideas with her. Things like
"What do you find most satisfying about routine?"
"Have you ever had a more exploratory phase of life?"

and so on. Once you have a enough info can start planting seeds that are conducive to her world view
"It makes sense you are more structured now. Sounds like you really valued that exploratory phase in life. Its cool that you are still making artwork. It sounds like you are finding ways to ballance the spontaeus with the routine"
Then she is like "yeah, totally!"

Now you have her invested in a mall frame that is more conducive to a spontaneous sexual relationship. You then can slowly grow the frame from there.

This approach holds true for disqualifying yourself as a boyfriend as well as bringing up sex. All of which you should be juggling throughout the interaction. Brigning them in and out of focus. Building on each one. "I am not looking for a relationship" usually comes after knocking boots, when It is already pretty much understood what kind of guy you are. Subtle,build, subtle, build, less subtle, build, and so on. It is a balance of what is implied and what is said explicitly. Implication goes a very long way

Everything is about context and precedence. There might not be enough ground work laid out before you even go on a date. So the lover frames are not quite strong enough to just go for it. Some first dates are betting used as a quick meet and greet as a means of laying some solid ground work to go on. All depending on your initial approach she might not even be expecting the fuck boy of her wildest dreams. So she is not even in that frame. You gotta warm up the oven before you can bake a cake. It's different wit each I individual scenario.

Some guys are pretty good at coming in strong with a solid frame and just sparring with the gal. This can get you some pretty quick pulls, but it is high risk high reward and you have to be firing on all cylinders.

Also, I am curious why you are just straight up planning to sleep with her for about two or three times than bounce? I mean, it can be reasonable to assume that might end up happening, but having such a clear agenda could potentially get in the way for navigating things. I mean what if she is a great fwb and you can be fucking on and off for years to come. I say this because, from my experience, a lot of women are dtf and don't really need some deeper thing, but they also want to feel like they are not just being used for some dudes personal agenda. They want to feel like they are a part of the negotiation each step of the way. Even if that means you are not available after one go at it. Women can often sense this subtle difference in how they are approached and are more open to arrangments they might not be open to otherwise. Or you just screen for ONS and women who are clearly down.

 

[TomInHo]

Depends on how you disqualify yourself as a boyfriend.

If you do it overtly like saying... "I'm not a fan of relationships and I don't want anything serious" most girls will not go for that and will feel like you are disrespecting them. She will think why does this A-hole not think I'm good enough for a relationship.

Instead you do it covertly by doing or saying things that make her see you as a Bad BF Candidate. That way she will not feel insulted and will place you in the Lover Zone using her own judgment...

Examples of BF Disqualifying Actions

Pre Date
- Not texting her everyday (Why isn't he showering me with attention like my last BF?)
- Not doing too many things for her (Why isn't he super compliant like my last BF?)

Date
- Going somewhere very cheap... (Why did we come to this cheap place? is he poor or stingy?)
- Dressing sexy but casual.... (Damn he looks good, but his clothes are not that expensive... he probably makes average income)
- Showing up 5 mins late.... (He's not super considerate like my last BF)
- Talking only about fun emotional topics, and avoiding boring logical topics like career.... (This guy seems like he only wants a good time)
- Mentioning you're currently in transition with your career and uncertain of what the future may hold.... (He's not stable)
- Talking about how you're all over the place and constantly moving or travel... (He's not stable)
- Splitting the bill on the date.... (He's more stingy than my last BF)

Setting Sexual Frames
- Beginning Physical Escalation Early
- Alternating between social & sexual frames... (Gives mixed signals and reduces resistance)


Pretty much when disqualifying yourself as a BF you still need to maintain some rapport and mystery. You want her to be thinking....

"Damn, this guy is sexy but the way he is acting, he would probably make a horrible boyfriend. Oh well I'm turned on right now and we are having a great time together. I'll just have sex with him and continue my boyfriend search somewhere else"

 

[StrayDog]

Depends on how you disqualify yourself as a boyfriend.

If you do it overtly like saying... "I'm not a fan of relationships and I don't want anything serious" most girls will not go for that and will feel like you are disrespecting them. She will think why does this A-hole not think I'm good enough for a relationship.

Instead if you do it covertly by doing or saying things that make you not a good BF candidate. That way she will not feel insulted and will place you in the Lover Zone using her own judgment...

Examples of BF Disqualifying Actions

Pre Date
- Not texting her everyday (Why isn't he showering me with attention like my last BF?)
- Not doing too many things for her (Why isn't he super compliant like my last BF?)

Date
- Going somewhere very cheap
- Dressing sexy but casual
- Showing up 5 mins late.... (He's not super considerate like my last BF)
- Talking only about fun emotional topics, and avoiding boring logical topics like career.... (This guy seems like he only wants a good time)
- Mentioning you're currently in transition with your career and uncertain of what the future may hold.... (He's not stable)
- Talking about how you're all over the place and constantly moving or travel... (He's not stable)
- Splitting the bill on the date.... (He's more stingy than my last BF)

Setting Sexual Frames
- Beginning Physical Escalation Early
- Alternating between social & sexual frames... (Gives mixed signals and reduces resistance)


Pretty much when disqualifying yourself as a BF you still need to maintain some rapport and mystery. You want her to be thinking....

"Damn, this guy is sexy but the way he is acting, he would probably make a horrible boyfriend. Oh well I'm turned on right now and we are having a great time together. I'll just have sex with him and continue my boyfriend search somewhere else"

@TomInHo with a masterclass on how implicit can go a lot further than explicit

 

[Chase]

That's an awesome post from @TomInHo!

@Jan, two things I'll point out:

1. As @StrayDog and @TomInHo point out, you're almost certainly being too overt about it. People resist frames others impose on them that clash with their original frames
   
   
2. The fact that she is even setting relationship frames in the first place says you are coming across boyfriend-y from the get-go, then trying to Band-Aid that by boyfriend-disqualifying yourself, which is going to get her all messed up

Like if you meet a sexy girl and she immediately behaves very flirtatious toward you, and you start thinking, "Damn, this girl really wants me! Oh yeah!" and then at some point she says, "I'm not dating right now... I'm only interested in being your friend. But I'll introduce you to my hot girlfriends," you are going to experience some pretty massive cognitive dissonance, and probably instinctively start trying to "change her mind" since you're already invested in this idea of bedding her.

On the other hand, if you meet a sexy girl but she treats you platonically from the beginning and says you seem like you'd make a really cool friend and she wants to introduce you to her friend group of hot girls, you're a lot more likely to go along with that, because you never had the chance to get it that far into your head that what you wanted with this girl was to shag.

While you're learning to do that though, not making it overt will fix a lot of your issues.

Instead, just let her conclude on her own that, "Well, I thought he might be a boyfriend, but he doesn't behave like a good boyfriend at all... however, he still is sexy... maybe we could..."

Chase

 

[Jan]

How exactly are you disqualifying your self as a boyfriend and framing yourself as a lover? Are you doing this very directly or on the sly? This makes a big difference. If you just outright state these things you are pretty much asking for a frame battle.
Also you mention bringing up sexual conversation. How are you framing these conversations? How are you leading into them? Calibration is key here.

Setting frames is like planting seeds. You can't expect to pluck the fruit right away. Sometimes you can just go big and bold with a women, granted she is giving strong signals and your game is strong to match, but most of the time you have to start small and subtly water the seed. Dropping subcommunications, changing the subject fractionating, coming back to the subject and adding more to it. You end up painting a pretty clear picture with out outright saying it. This gives her the chance to buy into the frame one small moment at a time. Since you are calibrating the frame to her as an individual then she has the opportunity to invest in it one step at a time. She is a part of the process and has essentially collaborated on the frame with you. Since you are fractionating she has already bought in to a smaller precedence by the time you reach a bigger escalation. When you do it this way, any friction you get when laying a frame allows you to gather information about how she sees the world and calibrate to that. For example If you say something like
"Sponaiety is the spice of life"
and she says
"I personally always like structure"
you have a small frame battle. Spontaneity is generally more conducive to casually flings, where as structure is more typically associated with long term relationships. So now you gather more info by asking questions and exploring ideas with her. Things like
"What do you find most satisfying about routine?"
"Have you ever had a more exploratory phase of life?"

and so on. Once you have a enough info can start planting seeds that are conducive to her world view
"It makes sense you are more structured now. Sounds like you really valued that exploratory phase in life. Its cool that you are still making artwork. It sounds like you are finding ways to ballance the spontaeus with the routine"
Then she is like "yeah, totally!"

Now you have her invested in a mall frame that is more conducive to a spontaneous sexual relationship. You then can slowly grow the frame from there.

This approach holds true for disqualifying yourself as a boyfriend as well as bringing up sex. All of which you should be juggling throughout the interaction. Brigning them in and out of focus. Building on each one. "I am not looking for a relationship" usually comes after knocking boots, when It is already pretty much understood what kind of guy you are. Subtle,build, subtle, build, less subtle, build, and so on. It is a balance of what is implied and what is said explicitly. Implication goes a very long way

Everything is about context and precedence. There might not be enough ground work laid out before you even go on a date. So the lover frames are not quite strong enough to just go for it. Some first dates are betting used as a quick meet and greet as a means of laying some solid ground work to go on. All depending on your initial approach she might not even be expecting the fuck boy of her wildest dreams. So she is not even in that frame. You gotta warm up the oven before you can bake a cake. It's different wit each I individual scenario.

Some guys are pretty good at coming in strong with a solid frame and just sparring with the gal. This can get you some pretty quick pulls, but it is high risk high reward and you have to be firing on all cylinders.

Also, I am curious why you are just straight up planning to sleep with her for about two or three times than bounce? I mean, it can be reasonable to assume that might end up happening, but having such a clear agenda could potentially get in the way for navigating things. I mean what if she is a great fwb and you can be fucking on and off for years to come. I say this because, from my experience, a lot of women are dtf and don't really need some deeper thing, but they also want to feel like they are not just being used for some dudes personal agenda. They want to feel like they are a part of the negotiation each step of the way. Even if that means you are not available after one go at it. Women can often sense this subtle difference in how they are approached and are more open to arrangments they might not be open to otherwise. Or you just screen for ONS and women who are clearly down.

Thank you for your comment, you are absolutely right about the direct/implicit distinction, calibration and taking it step-by-step. All of these are my weaknesses here and in other areas.

I did indeed disqualify myself directly:

This is example texting:

[We were discussing seeing each other at my place with implicit proposal of having sex. She said she can't make it this time because she has some family event this weekend. So she declined the invitation and proposed that we can see each other another time for some nature strolling]

HER: "Can't make it today, but let's go and spend some time in the nature together if you are willing to invite me."
ME: "OK"
ME: "Listen, I'm up for taking you outdoors but I'm not sure if I was clear enough last time, so I'd rather communiate this directly. I'm not looking for a relationship right now and I'm not in a competition to be your boyfriend."

Regarding ONS/FWB expectations, I'm not really planning to make this one off situation, I'm totally ok to make this happen few or several times. I just don't want this to roll into a relationship direction. Also, I already have two running FWBs and I don't really have more time for more. At the same time, I still want to continue developing my seduction skills.

 

[Jan]

Depends on how you disqualify yourself as a boyfriend.

If you do it overtly like saying... "I'm not a fan of relationships and I don't want anything serious" most girls will not go for that and will feel like you are disrespecting them. She will think why does this A-hole not think I'm good enough for a relationship.

Instead you do it covertly by doing or saying things that make her see you as a Bad BF Candidate. That way she will not feel insulted and will place you in the Lover Zone using her own judgment...

Examples of BF Disqualifying Actions

Pre Date
- Not texting her everyday (Why isn't he showering me with attention like my last BF?)
- Not doing too many things for her (Why isn't he super compliant like my last BF?)

Date
- Going somewhere very cheap... (Why did we come to this cheap place? is he poor or stingy?)
- Dressing sexy but casual.... (Damn he looks good, but his clothes are not that expensive... he probably makes average income)
- Showing up 5 mins late.... (He's not super considerate like my last BF)
- Talking only about fun emotional topics, and avoiding boring logical topics like career.... (This guy seems like he only wants a good time)
- Mentioning you're currently in transition with your career and uncertain of what the future may hold.... (He's not stable)
- Talking about how you're all over the place and constantly moving or travel... (He's not stable)
- Splitting the bill on the date.... (He's more stingy than my last BF)

Setting Sexual Frames
- Beginning Physical Escalation Early
- Alternating between social & sexual frames... (Gives mixed signals and reduces resistance)


Pretty much when disqualifying yourself as a BF you still need to maintain some rapport and mystery. You want her to be thinking....

"Damn, this guy is sexy but the way he is acting, he would probably make a horrible boyfriend. Oh well I'm turned on right now and we are having a great time together. I'll just have sex with him and continue my boyfriend search somewhere else"

Thank you for your comment. Lots of very good points.

The most important realisation for me is that I made a mistake of "disqualify her as a potential girlfriend", instead of "disqualifying myself as a potential boyfriend.". You are right that she may feel disrespected or combative in response to this.

One question regarding "Begining Physical Escalation Early". Can you please elaborate on this? I used to do this before, where I would touch her or kiss her on a date. The result was lots of LMR. When I stopped doing this, and only touched her/kissed her when we were in an isolated environment, it lowered LMR big time. So what do you mean exactly by "Early" physical escalation?

 

[Jan]

That's an awesome post from @TomInHo!

@Jan, two things I'll point out:

1. As @StrayDog and @TomInHo point out, you're almost certainly being too overt about it. People resist frames others impose on them that clash with their original frames
   
   
2. The fact that she is even setting relationship frames in the first place says you are coming across boyfriend-y from the get-go, then trying to Band-Aid that by boyfriend-disqualifying yourself, which is going to get her all messed up

Like if you meet a sexy girl and she immediately behaves very flirtatious toward you, and you start thinking, "Damn, this girl really wants me! Oh yeah!" and then at some point she says, "I'm not dating right now... I'm only interested in being your friend. But I'll introduce you to my hot girlfriends," you are going to experience some pretty massive cognitive dissonance, and probably instinctively start trying to "change her mind" since you're already invested in this idea of bedding her.

On the other hand, if you meet a sexy girl but she treats you platonically from the beginning and says you seem like you'd make a really cool friend and she wants to introduce you to her friend group of hot girls, you're a lot more likely to go along with that, because you never had the chance to get it that far into your head that what you wanted with this girl was to shag.

While you're learning to do that though, not making it overt will fix a lot of your issues.

Instead, just let her conclude on her own that, "Well, I thought he might be a boyfriend, but he doesn't behave like a good boyfriend at all... however, he still is sexy... maybe we could..."

Chase

Thank you for your comments.

Indeed, I CONFUSE HER by mixing lover/boyfriend signals. I'm going to enlist all the ways I send her "boyfriend" signals and try to eliminate them one by one, in order to "purify" my lover vibe and see what happens.