Should I read "The Game" or "Models"

[CharmingPsychopath]

Wow yeah. My mental image of the content of The Game has now got to be recalibrated.

Welcome to the club. I too had to recalibrate my mental image, long ago.

Long ago Mystery had a private, invite-only seduction forum called "Mystery's Lounge". It's mentioned in "The Game" - the very fragment where Katya is called "9.5" is Style quoting Mystery's post from Mystery's Lounge.

(Later Mystery opened new forum under the same name, open to the students of his workshops - these two should not be confused, I'm talking about the initial, supposedly "elite" forum.)

Back then these people were posting pictures of their girls there. I've seen the pictures and they were attractive, but in the 6-7 range.... Not 8+ I was expecting from such a supposedly "elitary" place.

Maybe Mystery is a liar, or maybe he seeing her through the lens of love <3

I guess he might be genuinely delusional as well.

There was a interview relatively recently with him as RSD Tyler and the vibe was really weird they cut things out Mystery doesn’t seem ok.

OMG Tyler. I've met Tyler and Papa. And in my opinion these two are probably the most disguisting people I have ever met in my life. Some people think that perhaps the negative image of them Style wrote is biased, unfair. In my opinion he was TOO GENTLE. I suspect Style was gentle on them because giving the full picture would also put Mystery in bad light.

BTW Are you familiar with former RSD coaches Julien and Todd?

Julien got married to a woman I rate 4/10.

Todd had a child with a woman I rate 4/10.

(I have photos of both, if you or somebody else is interested.)

I find it really hard to understand - how can guys who do pickup settle for 4/10s? I mean even if somebody can't get 8+, there are so many 6s, 7s who aren't hard to get...so why settle with ugly women? ‍

Regardless of reasons, personal results and sexual life of many "seduction gurus" are way worse than many people think.

That's an interesting question, and I don't fully know the answer. I believe it depends on:

- Environmental conditioning
- Early constructions of self-image (reinforced by the environment and social group)
- Innate temperament

I think in my case it was clearly innate temperament. Because they outside situation wasn't very helpful. I had:

1. Narcisstic, abusive father, who was trying to make me feel inferior and turn me into a worshipper of his fake narcisstic "greatness".

2. Low self-esteem mother preaching Catholic "good boy" doctrine and trying to pull me into her submissive, weak behaviors.

Perhaps one good thing was that I grew in the home where my narcisstic father was bossing my mother around, so I grew up in a family model where the man is clearly the dominant partner. But many guys were born in homes with bossy fathers and they grew up "castrated" instead of dominating.

I'm not really into BDSM as a system, I like to experience sex with the same sense of control and dominance, but without the elaborate roleplaying. I'll do some basic stuff like tying her up, blindfolding her, etc but I feel like anything too fancy sort of 'replaces' my mere presence as a source of sexual power, in a way that it should not.

I had similar feelings in the past. I saw BDSD as something artificial, contrived, unnecessaryily complicated, weird- I mean the image of people in latex suits, whips, clamps on nipples, etc.

But now my aproach is that the core of this is "power exchange" - or rather "power polarisation". That is: I'm everything, the woman is nothing. My rule is absolute and she has no rights. And this can be done in a simple, basic manner, but it can also be done in a more elaborate manner - both feel good to me.

I can do it in a non-verbal, "bare hands & dick" manner - grabbing her, touching bit too hard, fucking her in a mannner physically, nonverballby expressing that I treat her as my "property", an "animal", "passive container for my sperm", not as a person with rights. That's the thing I do most often. That's the core", the rest are additions done for entertainment.

I can add verbal play and commands to it. Like "kneel before your MASTER, bitch!". Or I may order the woman to tell me what kind of submissive, horny slut she is, how she has no sense of dignity, and how the sole purpose of her existence is sucking my dick and how it's the biggest honor in her life. Etc etc.

I can play with a horse crop. Even the act of holding the horse crop before the woman somehow feels good to me. Like if she's kneeling before me and I'm standing with a crop in my hand. I might place the tip of the crop on the top of her head, on the cheek or under chin, maybe tap a little (not beat, just tap). I might have her sniff or kiss the crop. Maybe have her meow like a cat. I might order her to beg me for mercy and kiss my feet. Then order her to "doggy style" position with exposed ass and deliver a few blows on her buttocks. Then make her tell me how she's greatly thankful for the discipline she has just received and how she feels it made her better and smarter, etc. Then we can have sex - and the 3-4 minutes of entertainment with the crop ir really an addition, a prelude to the sex.

There's something I want to write about, which you or other people mind find disguisting. But I feel I should write about this - for the sake of discussion and describing certain unsual dynamics... I like to urinate on women. On their faces and into their mouths. It's not any kind of fascination with urine itself - I find it disguisting and try to avoid contact and wash myself, have the woman wash herself. So what's the point? It's about power exchange/polarity, extreme humiliation. Women often swallow, kneel before a man, get slapped in the face, get called "bitch" or call man master/daddy, etc... It's not rare. But if a woman allows herself to be pissed on, drinks a man's urine, then it's a different level of her "lowering hersef". Her "position" is extremely low, she has zero dignity, she's less than a person, even less than an anima l- she's only a "toilet" to me at this moment. It's satisfying to me due to this strong power exchange. And this also positively affects the woman, her atttitude towards me.

My girlfriend is bisexual and was into BDSM and group sex long before she has met me. She was organising group sex in different configurations - only women, women + men or...her + men. The bad side is that she often had sex with several men on a single night - which is not a pleasant thought for me. The good side is that she has a large pool of female friends-lovers who are "ready for anything". We both agree that now I'm her only man, but having group sex with her female friends is a good idea.

BTW Her friends generally have their own relationships, boyfriends or husbands (who usually don't know about anything ), so there are no relationship issues, no dramas. These women aren't stupid or emotionally unstable - my girlfriend selected them wisely. They are all bisexual, hedonistic, smart, hot women - compliant with what my girlfriend like in a woman. The primary recruitment channel is lesbian makeout/sex- so essentially it's a social circle of bisexual women. As for the their boyfriends/husbands, the alibi, the official cover up story is very simple - it's a girl meeting. And that's actually largely true.

My girlfriend is dominant towards other women, but submissive towards me. The rules are that other girls have to do anything she says, but both she and the other girls have to do anything I say. But it's she who manages, organizes the whole thing.

She likes watching as I fuck her friends. She also likes to paricipate. For example she might grab her friend by the hair, put her head near my dick and say something like "suck it, whore!". Or she can grab her friend by the hair and put her head near her own crotch and tell her to "lick your lady, slut!".

This whole group thing works well on many levels and is a win for everybody involved.

I feel having a "royal life", I like this feeling of abundance. Having multiple women in one place, each ready to serve in whatever way I like just feels good. One submissive woman is a great thing, but having several at one place does something good to my brain. It's strangely "soothing" and peaceful, even more than having a single submissive woman. This whole thing, while essentially being a sexual orgy, feels very calm, kind of meditative or like we were on drugs (we aren't) and also has a "family vibe".

I can be taken care of by several women... Like one girl can give me a blowjob or mount me, another is kissing me on the mouth, another is giving me head massage. If more girls are present, there can caress or kiss hands, legs, chest, stomach. The effect is deeply and profoundly calming. All of that care, their warmth and feeling of their hair falling on my skin, their smell, etc... It's a powerful "sedative".

If I'm fucking a girl, I can have several girls watching attentively, with calm, interested, admiring gazes. It feels different from simply fucking a girl one-on-one. I will jokingly call it a "emotional support bitch pack".

The girls can get dominated by two different people, but a man and by a woman - and this variety also affects them differently.

They get dominated with other people witnessing and approving - which both reinforces the effects and soothes it. It's a "the others see I'm a totallly submissive whore and they are approve - it's a perfectly normal thing in this group. I can be a even bigger submissive whore and I will not only get more pleasure from it, but also more approval". So they try to be the biggest whores they can.

I look at how my girlfriend is bossing around, demeaning her friends and I admire her. What a charismatic "alpha bitch". How competentent and capable. And also so caring towards me. She impresses me so much. Having such a glorious bitch as my property, as my woman....it feels so great. I will dominate her totally - for the must know who her master is. And I will do it before the eyes of her friends, so her humiliation is greater. But of course for these slaves, she is still their superior, even while being my submissive bitch. My chosen bitch is nothing next to me, but they are nothing next to her.

My girlfriend gets both to be the "alpha bitch" and boss her friends and experience the humiliation of being dominated by me with them watching.

Is it elaborate? Certainly more than normal sex - as there are multiple people taking part, divided into 3 categories (me/girlfriend/her friends) . But if works very smoothly. And if I want uncomplicated, "primal" sex, I can easily do it - I just choose a bitch and do it.

The real core of BDSM is power exchange/polarisation. Which can be achieved with whatever method work for the given people. The image of latex suits, whips, nipple clamps, etc is misleading and harmful.

That said I like to really ravish a woman in bed and make her feel like I'm doing whatever I want with her - pin her down, drag her around the bed, flip her over, smack her butt (and pussy, gently), put various parts of myself into her various orifices, tell her what to do, dirty talk her.

I like such stuff too.

My experience of sex is a very primal one, where I'm not thinking or planning at all, I'm just immersing myself in all the sensations and in my sense of control and power, letting myself go where my impulses take me, like a sort of sexual beast. And that seems to be what she responds to and orgasms to the most - where she is the subject of my sexual expression, and all she can do is experience it and absorb it. I can lose a couple of hours easily in this state, and time seems to slow down.

My experience is extremely similar if not identical. And it also correlates with experience of my girlfriend and some other highly sexual people - all of whom are (very/extremely) good in bed.

There is an "impulse", an intuition telling the body what to do and it's primal, animalistic. And we do things without planning or really knowing why we do them. It's like some kind of "sexual trance". And we can't teach this to anyone - even if we try.

There is consensus between me, my girlfriend and some other people, that great sex is achieved not through technique, but through instinct/trance. And we think this is inborn and that most people don't have it, only few "lucky ones" do.

For me "complicated" BDSM/group/pagan stuff, that's only an addition. The core for me is having vanilla or rough sex with my girlfriend, one-on-one - because she's by far better in bed than any of her friends. We do the "complicated" stuff for mental/emotional satisfaction, not physical sexual satisfaction. (Though of course the second also happens.)

If I had an archetype, it would probably be the werewolf (with maybe a bit of the pirate mixed in!)

Mine is clearly vampire, but I also have something from a werewolf in me - for example sometimes I enjoy growling and biting in bed.

Growing up, I was always the 'werewolf' in the sense that I felt like I could be myself and express myself very naturally and aggressively when I was alone - which I did mainly by pushing my physical limits with exercise and sport - but I struggled to express myself socially. I couldn't seem to find the balance where I was respected but also welcomed, and so I became somewhat of a loner where I felt most in control. I was never bullied, but also never really accepted.

Sounds kind of similar.

I was somewhat of a loner. Unfortunately I was bullied. And also my narcisstic father abused me.

This "struggled to express myself socially" - me too.

BTW My girlfriend says she was a well behaved and even slightly shy child. She wasn't bullied as a child, but she experienced some short lived, light bullying as a teenager. Untill she beat the other girl with her fists, drawing blood. That day she discovered doing "bad" things can feel good.

This was all partly because I came to believe that some of my tendencies were pathological, I became religious briefly as a way to try and fix it, before realizing that the only way out was to accept everything about myself and learn how to make it work together.

I had something similar - though I also partially felt "defiantly proud" of how I was different. I had strange mixture of low self esteem and feeling superior.

I also tried religion and in the end nothing good came of it.

For me it wasn't about accepting, but about finding a way to make it work.

Once I started having sex, I felt immediately and instinctively comfortable expressing myself in a very primal, instinctive way with her, and sex became one of the ways I learned to really accept and enjoy all the various parts of my nature.

Sounds very much like my experience. I felt immediately and instinctively comfortable with sex and it allowed to me to reap benefits from my "bad", animalistic side.

One of my girlfriends would often breathlessly comment to me (just before we had sex and she came all over my balls) that I look at her like a predator, and to be honest, I kind of feel that way when I am moving to take a woman, and I enjoy it. But I am self-aware enough, of course, to maintain awareness of her experience of me, and adjust accordingly. I can live in those two states at once. And once she realizes that, she feels safe to open herself to what I am.

Exactly the same here. I also feel like a predator, but I'm also "safe". And the "living in two states at once" thing is almost EXACTLY how I have called it throughout the years.

I believe that the female sexual psyche (in general) desires to feel completely overwhelmed, to be the passive subject of an experience, and as a result to be absolved of all responsibility, and in experiencing this she feels fully released from inhibition, and free to explore her own nature.

I COMPLETELY agree.

Whether she wants to feel explicitly demeaned I think depends on the woman.

Yes, but that's often changeable. Many women didn't think they would ever like it, but they were shown otherwise.

I think women have as hard a time as men figuring out who they are and how to live in their true nature,

Oh yes! I've introduced many women to BDSM and they were surprised at how good it feels for them - they had no idea.

My girlfriend introduced many women to lesbian sex/bisexuality, BDSM, group sex. And the women didn't even knew that they are/can be bisexual!

I have noticed that all the 'red pill' women on the internet, who are very actively attempting (ostensibly) to restore the natural order of things between men and woman, are themselves hardly feminine, hardly submissive, and hardly satisfied with themselves. While the women I have been with become truly happy, soft, and carefree. So perhaps it is true that even a woman's opportunity to experience her natural role comes at the hands of a man.

I think I have only watched "Perl". And she feels to me to be a cold, unpleasant, asexual woman. Energy quite like a guy. Both physically and personality-wise not attractive to me.

On the other hand, I've met my girlfriend...on a local Red Pill forum. Not a kind of woman I would expect there, not at all. But she went there during Covid lockdown, when everything was closed, people were afraid to meet and she felt bored. A male friend asked her some questions about her perspective on male-female relationships, told her about Red Pill and she went to see what it's all about.

(I treated the forum as a general issue forum for men, I never was a believer in Red Pill. Often I tried to correct their erroneous beliefs.)

Aside from the huge surprise which was my girlfriend, there were some other attractive women there - not what I would expect. (And of course ugly ones as well.)

But the problem is that many of the women there were mentally, emotionally "damaged goods". For example one had a narcisstic personality disorder + autism + depression. Another had a history of sponsoring/prostitution, but since she came on the forum to find a husband, she created a false image of a perfect, hard-working conservative girl with high moral values.

My girlfriend, while in many ways a literally perfect "high end product", is a highly functioning sociopath with a history of HEAVY emotional, physical and sexual abuse towards many of her former partners. She's a great woman for me, but for a normal guy she can become a "heaven & hell" ticket to lifelong trauma.

In my opinion, Red Pill space attracts many women who do not belong elswhere. And the average level of female personality, emotional and mental health there is lower than average.

I've noticed that there are some really good women available in BDSM circles, fitness/sport circles, in show business and modelling industry. In the case of the last two, I don't simply mean looks, but personality. These women are well treated due to their looks, so on average they have less bitterness and toxicity. And they have to be disciplined in order to stay slim and not get fat, which often comes with good traits.

Lol. No. It's NOT "quite clear" what he meant. It's YOUR assumption of what he meant.

He didn't change his mind. If you even watched his old infields... you would see easily it was NEVER about hitting a girls self esteem. You assumed that's the intention despite him saying otherwise in numerous interviews, books and articles

OMG....

From Mystery's archive - 22 September 1998, Mystery:

"a neg hit is when you 'accidentaly' make her insecure"

October 6th 1998:

"She quickly realises she gets more attention from me by being nice to me - and this gives her the opportunity to get her self-esteem back after the little neg hit put downs."

October 8th 1998:

"A NEG HIT is a qualifier. The girl is FAILING to meet your high expectations".


Plus the previously mentioned: "retaliation tactics" and "negative hits".

Yes, it was about hitting a girl's self-esteem. In a calibrated manner - so that it's not an insult, but instead a "little put down". And the goal is to make the girl insecure - while making it look like it's accidental.

To me, she's definitely not a 7, 8, 9 or 10. But I can say the same about your girls too.

1. There is a very wide consensus she's not 9.5 or even close to it. And putting aside the question if Mystery was lying deliberately or is genuinely delusional, I think the more important question is: how much of the other things he said were real? And how much of it was nonsense like Katya's "9.5" looks?

I've seen many pictures of Mystery with women from that period and I remember I was dissapointed. From what he wrote in his posts it looked like he was sleeping with 8+ women, but the pictures generally indicated 6-7/10.

2. About my girls? Huh? What can you say about girls you haven't seen?

Also... I've seen Mystery with hotter women.

Before or after he got famous (and possible rich)?

The mother of his kids was properly hot when young - that's a point for him certainly. But I think he met her when he was already famous (and possibly rich).

BTW Plese keep in mind it's possible to make a photo with women one does not sleep with. Or with prostitutes. At least some seduction coaches made fake infield videos with hired women.

And I'm willing to bet you have 6s as well on your roster in the past

Sure I have. But I don't lie that these 6s were "9.5".

There are guys who have done well with it. You're erroneously ASSUMING (once again) that everyone seems to have failed with it

Read what I wrote once again. I'm not assuming such a thing. I was wondering - if I know people who went to the workshops led by Mystery, Lovedrop, etc and they still suck, then how many people actually succeed with MM?

Well I don’t want to burst your bubble but..
From what you’ve posted so far you describe yourself as

1. good looking
2. Aristocratic (ie high status)
3. Project a dominant /wicked sexual vibe underneath

so boiled down and in essence you are an old school ‘Cad’ or ‘Rake ‘ archetype of a seducer.

ie a good looking, high status guy that indicates to women hes a sexual Guy and a lil devil in the sack.

Ie - a seducer type.

For sure I can see all of that working .
But it’s definitely 1000% been described before. Like…everywhere. since time.

It’s described in almost every book on pickup and seduction. Including The Game / Mystery Method?

There is no bubble. After the line you quoted ("I haven't seen a description of something like my style anywhere."), there is a second line of: "In my opinion the closest one is Gunwitch because he wrote about the sexual state... But my state is sexual + BDSM/perverse/predatory/"vampiric", not just pure sexual.".

I was refering specifically to the kind of state I'm projecting. And that the most similar style in my opinion is Gunwitch, but the type of state projected is different.

Of course many people have written about impact of looks, projecting high status or sexuality. I was referring to my particular kind of sexuality that I think is very rare in the community.

interesting you say none of the Alpha Male type stuff worked for you.. I guess you have the high status behaviours down already as all the alpha books revolve around projecting High Status behaviours as a core thing.

I have seen other people get bad results with that stuff - generally becoming obnoxious instead of attractive.

I think a lot of the "Alpha Male" stuff is really fantasy, which isn't affecting women in the way authors are suggesting.

Though I think many introvert, shy guys could have gotten improvement from this because it served as "therapy" and countered their problems. Not because they've started to be perceived as "Alpha Males", but because they've stopped being shy and introverted.

are you from a wealthy family background or something?

No, just comfortable middle class.

But I look like a intelligent guy with good manners and good social status.

Take a look at Henry Cavil - he's got this "good, clean, trustworthy guy" vibe. I'm not that good looking of course, but I have a partially similar vibe.

I have some "good, clean, trustworthy guy" vibe and some "dark sexual vibe". But certainly below average amount of visual traits which would indicate somebody from a low status family.

I think Wes Bentley could serve here as a rough example - he has "clean guy" vibe, but certainly looks less "good" than Cavil.

The key takeaway and bit for me from your posts is the good looking and High Status bits. They seem to be the key bits.

My girlfriend says that strictly speaking I'm 7/10, but I also have "sweet" vibe and a "sexual predator" vibe.

The weird thing is that I got rejections from some 6's and strong IOIs from some models and celebrities. (I also got strong IOIs from 6s and rejections from models as well)

Girlfriend says that if a woman likes "primitive", "caveman" men she will not like me, but if a girl likes "classy", "subtle", or "sweet" or "sharply sexual" men she will like me a lot.

She also rolls eyes, shakes head at the idea I ever had trouble getting laid. She says I must've been sabotaging myself back then A LOT.

which is why I prefer MM over Models .
As he puts the emphasis on High Status / Higher Value firstly.

Sure, MM is way better than Models. Models is outright stupid.

I criticize MM and Mystery in certain areas, but some others are ok.

And certainly, plenty of guys are getting laid with high status, getting women they couldn't get otherwise.

Advice from sociopathic girlfriend:

1. Look at how rich guys are dressing and emulate it.
2. Don't go to places with rich people. Go dressed as a rich guy to "decent" places, but not the top places. Because there women will be quite good, but it will be easy to look like the richest guy in the place.
3. Lie you're rich.

 

[Skills]

The community is based on field experience.... If what mystery or _________________ guru gets me laid, i can't care less how the subjective rating feels to me, since ain't my dick.... (the rating stuff has been discuss to death)...

Step 1:

- read whatever material you want and you think can help you.

step 2:

- field test it couple of time 3-5 in my experience is enough (do it exactly how they say to do it without free styling), unless you are already really good were you can freestyle and customize advice giving.

step 3:

- if the style is old and outdated (see how can some of the things be adapted to current times), usually by asking guys that know that specific style and are doing it in present moment.

step 4:

- if you get laid, amazing the style works.... if it does not works drop it.... "oh shit how simple:


I got laid with david d, got my own onitis dream girl, david d girl looks like david d with lipstick.... I don't give a shit if his dick likes himself with lipstick i got laid with my onitis...

Advice from sociopathic girlfriend:

1. Look at how rich guys are dressing and emulate it.
2. Don't go to places with rich people. Go dressed as a rich guy to "decent" places, but not the top places. Because there women will be quite good, but it will be easy to look like the richest guy in the place.
3. Lie you're rich.

^ please please field test this none sense, if it works, i will stop posting in the forum..... and give you a 100 dollars....

How to pick the right seduction method or seducer to follow.

These are the keys in choosing a method or guru to model and follow.

www.theskillsmethod.com

Why women's advice is useless for seduction and/or to get good with women! - The Skills Method

Dudes pay 10k dollars to go to the “Millionaire Matchmaker” Patti Stanger to find love (Bravo Tv dating show, exhibit at the end of the post). Now these are not … Continue Reading →

www.theskillsmethod.com

p.s. i have 2 rich wings the way they dress is totally different, and no girl can tell they are rich by how they dress jesus...

 

[Will_V]

I think in my case it was clearly innate temperament. Because they outside situation wasn't very helpful. I had:

1. Narcisstic, abusive father, who was trying to make me feel inferior and turn me into a worshipper of his fake narcisstic "greatness".

2. Low self-esteem mother preaching Catholic "good boy" doctrine and trying to pull me into her submissive, weak behaviors.

Perhaps one good thing was that I grew in the home where my narcisstic father was bossing my mother around, so I grew up in a family model where the man is clearly the dominant partner. But many guys were born in homes with bossy fathers and they grew up "castrated" instead of dominating.

That's interesting, I too grew up in a home with a very dominant father, and a large age gap between my mother and father. But my father was always even-handed and fundamentally wanted the best for us, even though he was far from perfect.

I consider myself fortunate though - so many men grow up with either no father figure to draw from, or one which is very feeble and does not give them a strong masculine psychological foundation. My father lived a varied and fairly adventurous life, and has always been a source of practical wisdom to me, including about women with whom he had plenty of experience.

The real core of BDSM is power exchange/polarisation. Which can be achieved with whatever method work for the given people. The image of latex suits, whips, nipple clamps, etc is misleading and harmful.

Yes, I just prefer it to be a simple, bare sexual experience, stripped of any unnecessary accessories.

I can't say I've ever really felt the urge to demean a woman. I feel that when she submits to me, when she becomes open and completely vulnerable, physically and psychologically, she becomes something profoundly beautiful to me. The fact that I might treat her in a somewhat rough, beastly way during sex does not change that but enhance it. Her softness absorbs my primal strength without resistance or fear, her whimpers and moans beckoning me deeper, and in that way her uniquely feminine power is on full display.

What I find quite ugly is when a woman responds to my primal expression with profound anxiety or fear, because for me then she has no feminine power, she is a woman in appearance only.

My experience is extremely similar if not identical. And it also correlates with experience of my girlfriend and some other highly sexual people - all of whom are (very/extremely) good in bed.

There is an "impulse", an intuition telling the body what to do and it's primal, animalistic. And we do things without planning or really knowing why we do them. It's like some kind of "sexual trance". And we can't teach this to anyone - even if we try.

There is consensus between me, my girlfriend and some other people, that great sex is achieved not through technique, but through instinct/trance. And we think this is inborn and that most people don't have it, only few "lucky ones" do.

Interesting, I can't say for sure whether I agree that it's inborn. Again, I think a lot of people become profoundly out of touch with their instincts due to environmental and social conditioning. To what extent that plays a part is not clear to me.

I do know that despite having severe social anxiety as a teenager, I never had sexual anxiety, and never had a problem getting it up, keeping it up, and lasting a fairly long time in bed. And I attribute it to being able to move into this state where I am almost unconscious of anything except my impulses and sensations.

Mine is clearly vampire, but I also have something from a werewolf in me - for example sometimes I enjoy growling and biting in bed.

Lol, yes, I like to growl, and I have a particular enjoyment of gently biting her ear as I'm thrusting, it's never failed to drive her wild.

Sounds very much like my experience. I felt immediately and instinctively comfortable with sex and it allowed to me to reap benefits from my "bad", animalistic side.

Exactly the same here. I also feel like a predator, but I'm also "safe". And the "living in two states at once" thing is almost EXACTLY how I have called it throughout the years.

I think for guys who really enjoy sex and seduction, there is some deep element of self-expression in it that's hard to find the opportunity to express anywhere else.

Aside from the huge surprise which was my girlfriend, there were some other attractive women there - not what I would expect. (And of course ugly ones as well.)

I think you are right there, but the crucial difference is that the attractive women are not going there to actively push the red pill agenda, they are orbiting around this movement trying to discover what real masculinity and femininity is, for themselves.

Another had a history of sponsoring/prostitution, but since she came on the forum to find a husband, she created a false image of a perfect, hard-working conservative girl with high moral values.

And probably found her perfect match in some weak dude projecting himself as a dominant alpha male lol.

 

[D. Gately]

It works much better to go where the rich guys are, and out-dress all of them. Then the hot women there will be looking at you. Most rich men have no idea how to dress properly or even wear a suit that [still] fits them correctly. At least this has worked for me the past 12+ years when it comes to picking up hot young women. And if you see a guy who is dressed even better than you, you can learn something from his style or a woman's reaction to it.

Women's 2 main sexual fantasies haven't changed since My Secret Garden was written:
1) Sex with a tall, dark stranger, who might even have to take them forcefully,
2) Group sex.

Will, I think BDSM and role-playing are two different things. You can combine them like you can combine chocolate and peanut butter in a candy bar but you don't have to do so.

B&D, and S&M, are also different as you know but more closely related. A woman who's masochistic is very likely to want/need disciplining. But bondage and sadism are two very different things as well.

A masochistic young woman may not like being tied up at all, she may be all about being paddled, whipped, caned, nipple clamps, electro-stim, choking, slapping, hot wax, etc. She'll probably also be into humiliation/degradation play but not necessarily.

Role-playing is an overlay on the above Venn diagram. All the submissive women I've been with weren't role-playing their submission behind closed doors, that's who they were sexually.

From my personal experience girls who are masochists and into Total Power Exchange or Consensual Non-Consent tend to be more damaged with various traumas or past abuse. Just something I tell myself to keep aware of when I'm in that kind of scene.

 

[Will_V]

Will, I think BDSM and role-playing are two different things. You can combine them like you can combine chocolate and peanut butter in a candy bar but you don't have to do so.

B&D, and S&M, are also different as you know but more closely related. A woman who's masochistic is very likely to want/need disciplining. But bondage and sadism are two very different things as well.

A masochistic young woman may not like being tied up at all, she may be all about being paddled, whipped, caned, nipple clamps, electro-stim, choking, slapping, hot wax, etc. She'll probably also be into humiliation/degradation play but not necessarily.

Role-playing is an overlay on the above Venn diagram. All the submissive women I've been with weren't role-playing their submission behind closed doors, that's who they were sexually.

From my personal experience girls who are masochists and into Total Power Exchange or Consensual Non-Consent tend to be more damaged with various traumas or past abuse. Just something I tell myself to keep aware of when I'm in that kind of scene.

Yeah, there are lots of different psychological aspects to things that are kind of crudely bundled into 'BDSM'.

In my experience and understanding, the baseline that is pretty much universal in women (though often more or less repressed) is this:

I believe that the female sexual psyche (in general) desires to feel completely overwhelmed, to be the passive subject of an experience, and as a result to be absolved of all responsibility, and in experiencing this she feels fully released from inhibition, and free to explore her own nature.

Other things might be seen as an extension of this primary female sexual instinct, but I don't think that's necessarily the right way to look at it. It may instead be a transformation of this instinct into something quite different from the form in which it commonly exists.

The conscious experiences of people, both the good and bad experiences, tend to reshape the expression of the instincts that were there from the very beginning.

 

[CharmingPsychopath]

I consider myself fortunate though - so many men grow up with either no father figure to draw from, or one which is very feeble and does not give them a strong masculine psychological foundation. My father lived a varied and fairly adventurous life, and has always been a source of practical wisdom to me, including about women with whom he had plenty of experience.

Nice! Mine took care of me financially, but was otherwise toxic and abusive.

Interesting, I can't say for sure whether I agree that it's inborn. Again, I think a lot of people become profoundly out of touch with their instincts due to environmental and social conditioning. To what extent that plays a part is not clear to me.

In my case (and in the case of many other people) the result doesn't match the environmental/social conditioning.

I had a let's say 4/10 environmental/social conditioning situation - with a conservative "be a good boy" propaganda, but without direct opression in this context. (I'm not taking abusive narcisstic father in account here - I'm talking about conditioning directly related to sexuality, morality, etc.)

I had a 10/10 sexual functioning from the very beginning.

One doesn't match the other.

So either I had some inborn sexual talent or an inborn ability to resist social conditioning. Or both.

There are many other people who have sexual talent, strong instinct, but were raised in more or less normal families.

My girlfriend had a pretty normal social conditioning. And she's a 10/10 in bed, also likes group sex, violence, drinking blood, etc etc. She says she feels like she's a "wild beast hidden in a skin of a human female".

I have a male friend with opressive, disciplinarian father, dominating the mother completely. Not a narcissist like mine - a "normal" authoritarian tyrant. The friend has mental dominating tendencies, but he's weak in bed - women treat him poorly after starting having sex with him. We've talked about it many times and he simply doesn't understand me when I'm talking about instinctive sex. It's like he's dominating but somehow "dumb sexually". He's liberated sexually - had threesomes, etc, but somehow can't fuck well.

Another friend was raised by a single, but rich mother. Father is an asshole (somehow I see this a lot). His mother was working a lot earning lots of money, so he had a lot of freedom and much cash to spend. But he's not instinctive. Not dominating. He's liberated sexually, but simply doesn't have the "animal" in him. Did someboy surpress the animal in him? The father living in another city or the frequently absent mother busy with her work? I don't think so. I think the animal simply never was there.
.
I know a family in which one brother is a tall, phlegmatic guy who went to college, works in the media, etc... The other brother is short, cunning and opportunistic, became a criminal, joining it with car repair business. Same parents, same environment, drastically different outcomes - even physically.

I do know that despite having severe social anxiety as a teenager, I never had sexual anxiety, and never had a problem getting it up, keeping it up, and lasting a fairly long time in bed.

Same here! I had severe social anxiety, but somehow I was calm in bed.

Lol, yes, I like to growl, and I have a particular enjoyment of gently biting her ear as I'm thrusting, it's never failed to drive her wild.

We are quite similar to each other (of course with differences as well). And there are other people like this - it's a "type" of sexuality. The details can differ, but the most characteristic part is having an impulse, an instinct directing sex.

I know about several people with this "sexuality type" - we are rare, but also not-that-rare among people who sexually very active and open to talk about it. I know some from PUA community, but these groups don't overlap too much - lots of PUA community are people who have instinct below average, not above average. I think there are more such people in sexuality-oriented communites like the BDSM community.

People of this "type" I know of generally come from normal families and have high intelligence. But I don't think these factors create this sexuality type. I suspect that high intelligence simply makes these people able to talk about it, describe the things which are hard to describe. And having more or less normal families could be adding emotional stability, helping in opening up about this.

I think you are right there, but the crucial difference is that the attractive women are not going there to actively push the red pill agenda, they are orbiting around this movement trying to discover what real masculinity and femininity is, for themselves.

Yes, absolutely.

And probably found her perfect match in some weak dude projecting himself as a dominant alpha male lol.

She found some unfortunate guy, but outside the forum. They have a child, but I've heard that he left her.

Other women have found partners on the forum - but the guys weren't the core Red Pill guys - they were the outliers.

One female user wrote openly that the forum attracts "strong women" and "weak men", which makes it not conductive for match-making.

Me and my girlfriend and also some other people have made several observations there. My girlfriend characterised the Red Pill crowd there as "weak material". One female is calling them "weak material", another "weak men". I think the pattern is very clear.

Few things we've noticed:

1. Many of these guys are simply short. Not all, but certainly the average is low.

2. Many have autism or are highly neurotic. Some were alcoholic, with mental problems or showed of homosexuality.

3. Some admitted to things like erection problems before 30 or "being bored with sex", also before 30. I suspect many of them - also those who didn't admit it - simply have low libido. I think their desire for women is largely emotional, social, ego-driven, not really sexual.

4. Some people have presented incredible lack of knowlege about sex. Saying some really bizarre things.

One user around 30 expressed a view that some women like delicate caressing, while others like hard fucking. Like it's a "X OR Y" thing separating women in two separate groups. He seemed unaware that vast majority of women enjoys having delicate foreplay first, hard fucking later.

Another user around 30 expressed a view that sexual skills are a myth, a man can't be better or worse at sex - because the woman's sexual satisfaction is derived solely from how good looking a man is. The same user wrote he's considering buying a sex doll.

A user around 40 expressed a view that there are no better or worse lovers - because it's "all subjective". Of course in reality it's easy to observe that yes, some people are better at sex, others are worse. For example I've noticed that among me and my close friends, each of us tends to get the same kind of post-sex reactions and behaviors from different women.

One user around 40, who admitted to have slept with only 2 women in his entire life, argued sharply with my girlfriend about female bisexuality. A heterosexual guy with very limited experience thinks he "knows better" the topic of female bisexuality than a bisexual female with many years of active bisexual experience.

5. Despite being (on average) losers, these people try to somehow by "Alpha Males" and attempt to lets say "FORCE" the world and women to treating them like they would like to be treated.

BTW I've seen a lot of similar problems, but not so extreme, in the PUA community. Both communites attract many disturbed men with problems.

It works much better to go where the rich guys are, and out-dress all of them. Then the hot women there will be looking at you. Most rich men have no idea how to dress properly or even wear a suit that [still] fits them correctly.

My girlfriend meant imitating the style of those men who look rich. So essentially her advice is to dress to look rich.

Will, I think BDSM and role-playing are two different things. You can combine them like you can combine chocolate and peanut butter in a candy bar but you don't have to do so.

B&D, and S&M, are also different as you know but more closely related. A woman who's masochistic is very likely to want/need disciplining. But bondage and sadism are two very different things as well.

A masochistic young woman may not like being tied up at all, she may be all about being paddled, whipped, caned, nipple clamps, electro-stim, choking, slapping, hot wax, etc. She'll probably also be into humiliation/degradation play but not necessarily.

Yes, there are many different things under the umbrella term of BDSM. And not every "BDSM person" likes every BDSM activity.

A lof of women like being dominated, demeaned, but without much pain and without bondage. So just the "D" of out BDSM.

But if a girl is physically masochistic, then most likely she'll also welcome the domination and verbal demeaning. So for practical purposes, it's kind of like domination and S&M aren't two different sets, but the S&M is the more extreme subset of domination. (Even if there are individual exceptions)

From my personal experience girls who are masochists and into Total Power Exchange or Consensual Non-Consent tend to be more damaged with various traumas or past abuse. Just something I tell myself to keep aware of when I'm in that kind of scene.

Yes, the heavily masochistic girls seem to be damaged by trauma.

 

[Will_V]

In my case (and in the case of many other people) the result doesn't match the environmental/social conditioning.

I had a let's say 4/10 environmental/social conditioning situation - with a conservative "be a good boy" propaganda, but without direct opression in this context. (I'm not taking abusive narcisstic father in account here - I'm talking about conditioning directly related to sexuality, morality, etc.)

I had a 10/10 sexual functioning from the very beginning.

One doesn't match the other.

So either I had some inborn sexual talent or an inborn ability to resist social conditioning. Or both.

There are many other people who have sexual talent, strong instinct, but were raised in more or less normal families.

My girlfriend had a pretty normal social conditioning. And she's a 10/10 in bed, also likes group sex, violence, drinking blood, etc etc. She says she feels like she's a "wild beast hidden in a skin of a human female".

I have a male friend with opressive, disciplinarian father, dominating the mother completely. Not a narcissist like mine - a "normal" authoritarian tyrant. The friend has mental dominating tendencies, but he's weak in bed - women treat him poorly after starting having sex with him. We've talked about it many times and he simply doesn't understand me when I'm talking about instinctive sex. It's like he's dominating but somehow "dumb sexually". He's liberated sexually - had threesomes, etc, but somehow can't fuck well.

Another friend was raised by a single, but rich mother. Father is an asshole (somehow I see this a lot). His mother was working a lot earning lots of money, so he had a lot of freedom and much cash to spend. But he's not instinctive. Not dominating. He's liberated sexually, but simply doesn't have the "animal" in him. Did someboy surpress the animal in him? The father living in another city or the frequently absent mother busy with her work? I don't think so. I think the animal simply never was there.
.
I know a family in which one brother is a tall, phlegmatic guy who went to college, works in the media, etc... The other brother is short, cunning and opportunistic, became a criminal, joining it with car repair business. Same parents, same environment, drastically different outcomes - even physically.

Interesting, the question of how particular traits appear, and how much is environmental vs innate, is fascinating to me. It makes sense that the mind (being a physical thing of course) should experience just the same amount of variation as we see in other characteristics of the body, but it's not easy to be sure what that variation accounts for.

We are quite similar to each other (of course with differences as well). And there are other people like this - it's a "type" of sexuality. The details can differ, but the most characteristic part is having an impulse, an instinct directing sex.

I know about several people with this "sexuality type" - we are rare, but also not-that-rare among people who sexually very active and open to talk about it. I know some from PUA community, but these groups don't overlap too much - lots of PUA community are people who have instinct below average, not above average. I think there are more such people in sexuality-oriented communites like the BDSM community.

People of this "type" I know of generally come from normal families and have high intelligence. But I don't think these factors create this sexuality type. I suspect that high intelligence simply makes these people able to talk about it, describe the things which are hard to describe. And having more or less normal families could be adding emotional stability, helping in opening up about this.

What I find most meaningful about this instinctive, primal nature is the way that it centers and solidifies you. There is really no more powerful freedom from inhibition and anxiety that I have experienced than to fully inhabit it, both in a sexual context and also simply in the way that I experience myself within my circumstances.

There have been times when life seemed so difficult and full of confusion and pain, and just by experiencing my everyday existence through this part of my nature, none of it seemed like it could ever touch me or break my spirit.

I do believe that everyone has this nature to some extent, though perhaps some much more so than others, and that every man should learn to use it to sustain himself when he needs to.

1. Many of these guys are simply short. Not all, but certainly the average is low.

2. Many have autism or are highly neurotic. Some were alcoholic, with mental problems or showed of homosexuality.

3. Some admitted to things like erection problems before 30 or "being bored with sex", also before 30. I suspect many of them - also those who didn't admit it - simply have low libido. I think their desire for women is largely emotional, social, ego-driven, not really sexual.

4. Some people have presented incredible lack of knowlege about sex. Saying some really bizarre things.

One user around 30 expressed a view that some women like delicate caressing, while others like hard fucking. Like it's a "X OR Y" thing separating women in two separate groups. He seemed unaware that vast majority of women enjoys having delicate foreplay first, hard fucking later.

Another user around 30 expressed a view that sexual skills are a myth, a man can't be better or worse at sex - because the woman's sexual satisfaction is derived solely from how good looking a man is. The same user wrote he's considering buying a sex doll.

A user around 40 expressed a view that there are no better or worse lovers - because it's "all subjective". Of course in reality it's easy to observe that yes, some people are better at sex, others are worse. For example I've noticed that among me and my close friends, each of us tends to get the same kind of post-sex reactions and behaviors from different women.

One user around 40, who admitted to have slept with only 2 women in his entire life, argued sharply with my girlfriend about female bisexuality. A heterosexual guy with very limited experience thinks he "knows better" the topic of female bisexuality than a bisexual female with many years of active bisexual experience.

5. Despite being (on average) losers, these people try to somehow by "Alpha Males" and attempt to lets say "FORCE" the world and women to treating them like they would like to be treated.

I've never spent time on a red pill forum, but from what I've seen on yt, it fits.

Probably the worst tendency of RP guys is their needy attempts to make women sympathize with them or commiserate with them in some way (which are typically female behaviors) when the women in front of them are sitting around ready to submit their worldview to anyone with a strong enough frame. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

BTW I've seen a lot of similar problems, but not so extreme, in the PUA community. Both communites attract many disturbed men with problems.

Yeah, I think that's one of the unfortunate things about the PUA community, a lot of guys start off with a weak base, and end up losing their center altogether, swinging from one extreme to the other, trying to find more and more validation either from women or their audience.

That's what attracted me to this place, it's got a more levelheaded, clear-minded way of looking at women, presenting the truth without either sugarcoating or shit-talking female nature. There might be one or two other places I'd be part of, but not many at all.

Very fun convo!

 

[CharmingPsychopath]

Interesting, the question of how particular traits appear, and how much is environmental vs innate, is fascinating to me. It makes sense that the mind (being a physical thing of course) should experience just the same amount of variation as we see in other characteristics of the body, but it's not easy to be sure what that variation accounts for.

Certainly environment can be very influential, but so are the inborn factors. Things like intelligence, libido, inborn personality tendencies... For example my aunt and uncle have divorced, their son was raised by her, having almost no contact with father - and yet when he grew up, he had many personality traits like his father. Obviously these particular personality traits must be genetic, as his father had no opportunity to pass them through the environmental channel.

What I find most meaningful about this instinctive, primal nature is the way that it centers and solidifies you. There is really no more powerful freedom from inhibition and anxiety that I have experienced than to fully inhabit it, both in a sexual context and also simply in the way that I experience myself within my circumstances.

There have been times when life seemed so difficult and full of confusion and pain, and just by experiencing my everyday existence through this part of my nature, none of it seemed like it could ever touch me or break my spirit.

In my case it's different - for me the "primal sex instinct" is a great thing, I love it, I get lots of satisfaction from it, etc etc, but somehow it doesn't affect my whole life and well-being that much. It does to some degree, but not very much. I'm somehow "compartmentalized" into many "areas", bit like different personalities. Like there's "sexual me", "social me" and several other forms of "me".

I do believe that everyone has this nature to some extent, though perhaps some much more so than others, and that every man should learn to use it to sustain himself when he needs to.

I think a lot of people simply "don't have it". Maybe they have it to some small extent, but that doesn't seem strong enough to make a big impact.

Probably the worst tendency of RP guys is their needy attempts to make women sympathize with them or commiserate with them in some way (which are typically female behaviors) when the women in front of them are sitting around ready to submit their worldview to anyone with a strong enough frame. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

I've seen something different - resentment towards women and at the same time desire to be recognized as some kind of "alpha males". They act tough, critical and dismissive, thinking that's the way "real men" act. They seem to think they can somehow make an impression on women, dominate them, somehow "win psychological warfare" or something by - by essentially acting like mean douchebags. They think they understand female psychology, but in reality they don't.

At least that's how it looked like in the individuals I've observed over longer period of time.

Yeah, I think that's one of the unfortunate things about the PUA community, a lot of guys start off with a weak base, and end up losing their center altogether, swinging from one extreme to the other, trying to find more and more validation either from women or their audience.

Oh yes. I remember lots of guys with different emotional and social deficiencies, sometimes autism or even homosexual tendencies (!), believing the motivating, but not very honest message that PUA is the greatest thing ever, looks don't matter and women are waiting hungrily for guys with some "alpha male behaviors" or "demonstrations of higher value".

Very fun convo!

Yes, fun convo.

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Welcome to the club. I too had to recalibrate my mental image, long ago.

Long ago Mystery had a private, invite-only seduction forum called "Mystery's Lounge". It's mentioned in "The Game" - the very fragment where Katya is called "9.5" is Style quoting Mystery's post from Mystery's Lounge.

(Later Mystery opened new forum under the same name, open to the students of his workshops - these two should not be confused, I'm talking about the initial, supposedly "elite" forum.)

Back then these people were posting pictures of their girls there. I've seen the pictures and they were attractive, but in the 6-7 range.... Not 8+ I was expecting from such a supposedly "elitary" place.



I guess he might be genuinely delusional as well.



OMG Tyler. I've met Tyler and Papa. And in my opinion these two are probably the most disguisting people I have ever met in my life. Some people think that perhaps the negative image of them Style wrote is biased, unfair. In my opinion he was TOO GENTLE. I suspect Style was gentle on them because giving the full picture would also put Mystery in bad light.

BTW Are you familiar with former RSD coaches Julien and Todd?

Julien got married to a woman I rate 4/10.

Todd had a child with a woman I rate 4/10.

(I have photos of both, if you or somebody else is interested.)

I find it really hard to understand - how can guys who do pickup settle for 4/10s? I mean even if somebody can't get 8+, there are so many 6s, 7s who aren't hard to get...so why settle with ugly women? ‍

Regardless of reasons, personal results and sexual life of many "seduction gurus" are way worse than many people think.




I think in my case it was clearly innate temperament. Because they outside situation wasn't very helpful. I had:

1. Narcisstic, abusive father, who was trying to make me feel inferior and turn me into a worshipper of his fake narcisstic "greatness".

2. Low self-esteem mother preaching Catholic "good boy" doctrine and trying to pull me into her submissive, weak behaviors.

Perhaps one good thing was that I grew in the home where my narcisstic father was bossing my mother around, so I grew up in a family model where the man is clearly the dominant partner. But many guys were born in homes with bossy fathers and they grew up "castrated" instead of dominating.




I had similar feelings in the past. I saw BDSD as something artificial, contrived, unnecessaryily complicated, weird- I mean the image of people in latex suits, whips, clamps on nipples, etc.

But now my aproach is that the core of this is "power exchange" - or rather "power polarisation". That is: I'm everything, the woman is nothing. My rule is absolute and she has no rights. And this can be done in a simple, basic manner, but it can also be done in a more elaborate manner - both feel good to me.

I can do it in a non-verbal, "bare hands & dick" manner - grabbing her, touching bit too hard, fucking her in a mannner physically, nonverballby expressing that I treat her as my "property", an "animal", "passive container for my sperm", not as a person with rights. That's the thing I do most often. That's the core", the rest are additions done for entertainment.

I can add verbal play and commands to it. Like "kneel before your MASTER, bitch!". Or I may order the woman to tell me what kind of submissive, horny slut she is, how she has no sense of dignity, and how the sole purpose of her existence is sucking my dick and how it's the biggest honor in her life. Etc etc.

I can play with a horse crop. Even the act of holding the horse crop before the woman somehow feels good to me. Like if she's kneeling before me and I'm standing with a crop in my hand. I might place the tip of the crop on the top of her head, on the cheek or under chin, maybe tap a little (not beat, just tap). I might have her sniff or kiss the crop. Maybe have her meow like a cat. I might order her to beg me for mercy and kiss my feet. Then order her to "doggy style" position with exposed ass and deliver a few blows on her buttocks. Then make her tell me how she's greatly thankful for the discipline she has just received and how she feels it made her better and smarter, etc. Then we can have sex - and the 3-4 minutes of entertainment with the crop ir really an addition, a prelude to the sex.

There's something I want to write about, which you or other people mind find disguisting. But I feel I should write about this - for the sake of discussion and describing certain unsual dynamics... I like to urinate on women. On their faces and into their mouths. It's not any kind of fascination with urine itself - I find it disguisting and try to avoid contact and wash myself, have the woman wash herself. So what's the point? It's about power exchange/polarity, extreme humiliation. Women often swallow, kneel before a man, get slapped in the face, get called "bitch" or call man master/daddy, etc... It's not rare. But if a woman allows herself to be pissed on, drinks a man's urine, then it's a different level of her "lowering hersef". Her "position" is extremely low, she has zero dignity, she's less than a person, even less than an anima l- she's only a "toilet" to me at this moment. It's satisfying to me due to this strong power exchange. And this also positively affects the woman, her atttitude towards me.

My girlfriend is bisexual and was into BDSM and group sex long before she has met me. She was organising group sex in different configurations - only women, women + men or...her + men. The bad side is that she often had sex with several men on a single night - which is not a pleasant thought for me. The good side is that she has a large pool of female friends-lovers who are "ready for anything". We both agree that now I'm her only man, but having group sex with her female friends is a good idea.

BTW Her friends generally have their own relationships, boyfriends or husbands (who usually don't know about anything ), so there are no relationship issues, no dramas. These women aren't stupid or emotionally unstable - my girlfriend selected them wisely. They are all bisexual, hedonistic, smart, hot women - compliant with what my girlfriend like in a woman. The primary recruitment channel is lesbian makeout/sex- so essentially it's a social circle of bisexual women. As for the their boyfriends/husbands, the alibi, the official cover up story is very simple - it's a girl meeting. And that's actually largely true.

My girlfriend is dominant towards other women, but submissive towards me. The rules are that other girls have to do anything she says, but both she and the other girls have to do anything I say. But it's she who manages, organizes the whole thing.

She likes watching as I fuck her friends. She also likes to paricipate. For example she might grab her friend by the hair, put her head near my dick and say something like "suck it, whore!". Or she can grab her friend by the hair and put her head near her own crotch and tell her to "lick your lady, slut!".

This whole group thing works well on many levels and is a win for everybody involved.

I feel having a "royal life", I like this feeling of abundance. Having multiple women in one place, each ready to serve in whatever way I like just feels good. One submissive woman is a great thing, but having several at one place does something good to my brain. It's strangely "soothing" and peaceful, even more than having a single submissive woman. This whole thing, while essentially being a sexual orgy, feels very calm, kind of meditative or like we were on drugs (we aren't) and also has a "family vibe".

I can be taken care of by several women... Like one girl can give me a blowjob or mount me, another is kissing me on the mouth, another is giving me head massage. If more girls are present, there can caress or kiss hands, legs, chest, stomach. The effect is deeply and profoundly calming. All of that care, their warmth and feeling of their hair falling on my skin, their smell, etc... It's a powerful "sedative".

If I'm fucking a girl, I can have several girls watching attentively, with calm, interested, admiring gazes. It feels different from simply fucking a girl one-on-one. I will jokingly call it a "emotional support bitch pack".

The girls can get dominated by two different people, but a man and by a woman - and this variety also affects them differently.

They get dominated with other people witnessing and approving - which both reinforces the effects and soothes it. It's a "the others see I'm a totallly submissive whore and they are approve - it's a perfectly normal thing in this group. I can be a even bigger submissive whore and I will not only get more pleasure from it, but also more approval". So they try to be the biggest whores they can.

I look at how my girlfriend is bossing around, demeaning her friends and I admire her. What a charismatic "alpha bitch". How competentent and capable. And also so caring towards me. She impresses me so much. Having such a glorious bitch as my property, as my woman....it feels so great. I will dominate her totally - for the must know who her master is. And I will do it before the eyes of her friends, so her humiliation is greater. But of course for these slaves, she is still their superior, even while being my submissive bitch. My chosen bitch is nothing next to me, but they are nothing next to her.

My girlfriend gets both to be the "alpha bitch" and boss her friends and experience the humiliation of being dominated by me with them watching.

Is it elaborate? Certainly more than normal sex - as there are multiple people taking part, divided into 3 categories (me/girlfriend/her friends) . But if works very smoothly. And if I want uncomplicated, "primal" sex, I can easily do it - I just choose a bitch and do it.

The real core of BDSM is power exchange/polarisation. Which can be achieved with whatever method work for the given people. The image of latex suits, whips, nipple clamps, etc is misleading and harmful.



I like such stuff too.




My experience is extremely similar if not identical. And it also correlates with experience of my girlfriend and some other highly sexual people - all of whom are (very/extremely) good in bed.

There is an "impulse", an intuition telling the body what to do and it's primal, animalistic. And we do things without planning or really knowing why we do them. It's like some kind of "sexual trance". And we can't teach this to anyone - even if we try.

There is consensus between me, my girlfriend and some other people, that great sex is achieved not through technique, but through instinct/trance. And we think this is inborn and that most people don't have it, only few "lucky ones" do.

For me "complicated" BDSM/group/pagan stuff, that's only an addition. The core for me is having vanilla or rough sex with my girlfriend, one-on-one - because she's by far better in bed than any of her friends. We do the "complicated" stuff for mental/emotional satisfaction, not physical sexual satisfaction. (Though of course the second also happens.)




Mine is clearly vampire, but I also have something from a werewolf in me - for example sometimes I enjoy growling and biting in bed.





Sounds kind of similar.

I was somewhat of a loner. Unfortunately I was bullied. And also my narcisstic father abused me.

This "struggled to express myself socially" - me too.

BTW My girlfriend says she was a well behaved and even slightly shy child. She wasn't bullied as a child, but she experienced some short lived, light bullying as a teenager. Untill she beat the other girl with her fists, drawing blood. That day she discovered doing "bad" things can feel good.




I had something similar - though I also partially felt "defiantly proud" of how I was different. I had strange mixture of low self esteem and feeling superior.

I also tried religion and in the end nothing good came of it.

For me it wasn't about accepting, but about finding a way to make it work.





Sounds very much like my experience. I felt immediately and instinctively comfortable with sex and it allowed to me to reap benefits from my "bad", animalistic side.




Exactly the same here. I also feel like a predator, but I'm also "safe". And the "living in two states at once" thing is almost EXACTLY how I have called it throughout the years.



I COMPLETELY agree.



Yes, but that's often changeable. Many women didn't think they would ever like it, but they were shown otherwise.




Oh yes! I've introduced many women to BDSM and they were surprised at how good it feels for them - they had no idea.

My girlfriend introduced many women to lesbian sex/bisexuality, BDSM, group sex. And the women didn't even knew that they are/can be bisexual!




I think I have only watched "Perl". And she feels to me to be a cold, unpleasant, asexual woman. Energy quite like a guy. Both physically and personality-wise not attractive to me.

On the other hand, I've met my girlfriend...on a local Red Pill forum. Not a kind of woman I would expect there, not at all. But she went there during Covid lockdown, when everything was closed, people were afraid to meet and she felt bored. A male friend asked her some questions about her perspective on male-female relationships, told her about Red Pill and she went to see what it's all about.

(I treated the forum as a general issue forum for men, I never was a believer in Red Pill. Often I tried to correct their erroneous beliefs.)

Aside from the huge surprise which was my girlfriend, there were some other attractive women there - not what I would expect. (And of course ugly ones as well.)

But the problem is that many of the women there were mentally, emotionally "damaged goods". For example one had a narcisstic personality disorder + autism + depression. Another had a history of sponsoring/prostitution, but since she came on the forum to find a husband, she created a false image of a perfect, hard-working conservative girl with high moral values.

My girlfriend, while in many ways a literally perfect "high end product", is a highly functioning sociopath with a history of HEAVY emotional, physical and sexual abuse towards many of her former partners. She's a great woman for me, but for a normal guy she can become a "heaven & hell" ticket to lifelong trauma.

In my opinion, Red Pill space attracts many women who do not belong elswhere. And the average level of female personality, emotional and mental health there is lower than average.

I've noticed that there are some really good women available in BDSM circles, fitness/sport circles, in show business and modelling industry. In the case of the last two, I don't simply mean looks, but personality. These women are well treated due to their looks, so on average they have less bitterness and toxicity. And they have to be disciplined in order to stay slim and not get fat, which often comes with good traits.




OMG....

From Mystery's archive - 22 September 1998, Mystery:

"a neg hit is when you 'accidentaly' make her insecure"

October 6th 1998:

"She quickly realises she gets more attention from me by being nice to me - and this gives her the opportunity to get her self-esteem back after the little neg hit put downs."

October 8th 1998:

"A NEG HIT is a qualifier. The girl is FAILING to meet your high expectations".


Plus the previously mentioned: "retaliation tactics" and "negative hits".

Yes, it was about hitting a girl's self-esteem. In a calibrated manner - so that it's not an insult, but instead a "little put down". And the goal is to make the girl insecure - while making it look like it's accidental.

Nah... it was about letting her know you won't put her on a pedestal as he explained in numerous articles and interviews. It's basically teasing/challenging/IODs. I already gave examples

1. There is a very wide consensus she's not 9.5 or even close to it. And putting aside the question if Mystery was lying deliberately or is genuinely delusional, I think the more important question is: how much of the other things he said were real? And how much of it was nonsense like Katya's "9.5" looks?

I've seen many pictures of Mystery with women from that period and I remember I was dissapointed. From what he wrote in his posts it looked like he was sleeping with 8+ women, but the pictures generally indicated 6-7/10.

2. About my girls? Huh? What can you say about girls you haven't seen?

Again, I can guarantee you if other guys saw YOUR girls (including me) they would not be as hot as you claim.

As a rule I've made it a general to take guys opinions on looks with a grain of salt unless they show what they consider hot.

So show me a picture of a random girl or celebrity you consider a 9 or 10.

Before or after he got famous (and possible rich)?

Both.

The mother of his kids was properly hot when young - that's a point for him certainly. But I think he met her when he was already famous (and possibly rich).

BTW Plese keep in mind it's possible to make a photo with women one does not sleep with. Or with prostitutes. At least some seduction coaches made fake infield videos with hired women.

I know he slept with them. So it's not about seeing them in photos

Sure I have. But I don't lie that these 6s were "9.5".

He didn't "lie" lol. Your 9 can be my or anyone's 6.

Read what I wrote once again. I'm not assuming such a thing. I was wondering - if I know people who went to the workshops led by Mystery, Lovedrop, etc and they still suck, then how many people actually succeed with MM?

Most people who go to workshops, take courses or read books dont succeed. If you organized a workshop for 100 guys, most of them will still suck. Nothing you can do about it

It's just how it is. Back then people were posting LRs using MM so how did that happen. And the students that learned from him and became coaches... did they learn it from the sky?

There is no bubble. After the line you quoted ("I haven't seen a description of something like my style anywhere."), there is a second line of: "In my opinion the closest one is Gunwitch because he wrote about the sexual state... But my state is sexual + BDSM/perverse/predatory/"vampiric", not just pure sexual.".

I was refering specifically to the kind of state I'm projecting. And that the most similar style in my opinion is Gunwitch, but the type of state projected is different.

Of course many people have written about impact of looks, projecting high status or sexuality. I was referring to my particular kind of sexuality that I think is very rare in the community.

Lol. What does bdsm/perverse/predatory/vampiric even mean. Smh

I have seen other people get bad results with that stuff - generally becoming obnoxious instead of attractive.

I think a lot of the "Alpha Male" stuff is really fantasy, which isn't affecting women in the way authors are suggesting.

Though I think many introvert, shy guys could have gotten improvement from this because it served as "therapy" and countered their problems. Not because they've started to be perceived as "Alpha Males", but because they've stopped being shy and introverted.



No, just comfortable middle class.

But I look like a intelligent guy with good manners and good social status.

Take a look at Henry Cavil - he's got this "good, clean, trustworthy guy" vibe. I'm not that good looking of course, but I have a partially similar vibe.

I have some "good, clean, trustworthy guy" vibe and some "dark sexual vibe". But certainly below average amount of visual traits which would indicate somebody from a low status family.

I think Wes Bentley could serve here as a rough example - he has "clean guy" vibe, but certainly looks less "good" than Cavil.




My girlfriend says that strictly speaking I'm 7/10, but I also have "sweet" vibe and a "sexual predator" vibe.

The weird thing is that I got rejections from some 6's and strong IOIs from some models and celebrities. (I also got strong IOIs from 6s and rejections from models as well)

Girlfriend says that if a woman likes "primitive", "caveman" men she will not like me, but if a girl likes "classy", "subtle", or "sweet" or "sharply sexual" men she will like me a lot.

She also rolls eyes, shakes head at the idea I ever had trouble getting laid. She says I must've been sabotaging myself back then A LOT.



Sure, MM is way better than Models. Models is outright stupid.

I criticize MM and Mystery in certain areas, but some others are ok.

And certainly, plenty of guys are getting laid with high status, getting women they couldn't get otherwise.

Advice from sociopathic girlfriend:

1. Look at how rich guys are dressing and emulate it.
2. Don't go to places with rich people. Go dressed as a rich guy to "decent" places, but not the top places. Because there women will be quite good, but it will be easy to look like the richest guy in the place.
3. Lie you're rich.

 

[CharmingPsychopath]

Nah... it was about letting her know you won't put her on a pedestal as he explained in numerous articles and interviews. It's basically teasing/challenging/IODs. I already gave examples

Are you one of those people who have a emotional problem with admitting they were wrong?

As shown by the quote in my earlier post, Mystery himself said directly that the point of a neg is to "make her insecure". These are his own words.

As I've said already, since he has changed his message later, there are two options:

1. Mystery genuinely changed his mind.

2. Mystery didn't reallly change his mind, but softened the message to improve his image.

Again, I can guarantee you if other guys saw YOUR girls (including me) they would not be as hot as you claim.

You're delusional. Because you have no way of knowing how would other guys, or even you, perceive my women.

Both.

From what I've seen, there seemed to be a change upwards when Mystery became famous (and possibly rich).

He didn't "lie" lol. Your 9 can be my or anyone's 6.

OMG.

There is a very wide consensus she's not a 9.5 and that rating her so is absurd. Even if Mystery would find her super hot for some bizarre reason, he would know from his friends and random people's reactions that in reality she's not that hot. (Do you think guy concentrated on social dynamics didn't notice the difference between how people react to Katya and to women who are really super hot?).

This was done in order to promote Mystery as the cutting edge, genius pickup artist. Because people imagining Mystery having a 9.5 girlfriend creates a way more attractive image than people imagining Mystery having a 6, max 7 girfriend.

This was marketing, a DHV routine designed to promote Mystery. It was literally gaming the readers.

Lol. What does bdsm/perverse/predatory/vampiric even mean. Smh

Something you will probably never understand. Just like you don't understand many other things.

 

[James Cruse]

1. I HATE "The Models". I find it to be a stupid, irritating book and I get the impression that the author really wasn't getting laid much or not with high quality women. I think it's a trap for naive, weak minded "good guys" - who want to hear that "manipulation doesn't work, honesty works, good honest guys like you are the real winners". Bullshit - lying and manipulation, if done right, work better than honesty. And I've found that guys who have a high level of success with women are almost always "bad people" (liars, exploiters) according to the moral standards, world view of the "good guys". (Me included - I've lied to women a lot with good results and I've "exploited" girls according to moral standards of the "good guys".)

I think "The Models" is a stupid book for stupid people - it's popularity being not a sign of quality, but sign of it matching widespread stupidity. Same like with let's say Red Pill - which is popular not because it's good, but because many people are stupid and misguided enough to believe in it.

I agree and I'm annoyed that Mark Manson even peddled that non-sense.

As I've said elsewhere, the reason Mark Manson wrote Models is:

1. He wanted to use a book about something he specialised in a 'launchpad' into a self-help writing career with publishers.

2. He needed to use the least offensive mainstream advice to establish this

3. He used advice, like referred to above, that would be a place where sexually unsuccessful people could use as a reference for staying exactly the same, being truthful (which usually means emotional, unpleasantly socially tactless and lazy/low effort communication) - and they could use this book as an authority for "See, I knew everyone else was wrong when I was being honest/emotional"


Mark's actual seduction likely look NOTHING like what's written in 'Models' and it's shameful that he's deliberately lied in bad faith.

His other books aren't much better - but the amount of sad women who can't control their emotions and wanted to virtue signal with 'The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck' by posting themselves reading it all over their social media did make me laugh.

But from what I have experienced and seen:

1. Negs don't seem to work as a solution to that problem. Neither for me, neither for other people - including some who attended workshops under Mystery, Lovedrop, etc.

Maybe negs work for Mystery - just like my "dark sexuality" thing which works for me, but my friends can't learn it.

But anyway - from what I have seen, negs seem to achieve nothing with the hottest women they're supposed to be designed for.

2. Mystery's words about how the hottest women MUST be negged are definitively false.

I got laid with very hot women while being nice to them. I sometimes did tease them, but that was made after they were already receptive towards me and it was actually more of a rapport-building, fun-building laugh.

3. A lot of Mystery's fans are delusional people (also true for PUA community in general). They speak at length about how "Mystery Method is designed to get the hottest women", etc etc, but they never actually get anywhere with the hottest women - and they don't see a contradiction between these two things.

These are people with mentality of "I have a GREAT method for sleeping with hottest women! And I haven't slept with any."

Meanwhile the hottest women are having sex - with people who aren't Mystery's followers.

I agree about Negs.

I use Challenging with women all the time - but outright insulting them is not effective, no matter how good looking they are.


I wouldn't continue down this path with Paulie - he genuinely has said and believes that EVERYTHING that everyone in seduction is doing is Mystery Method, no matter what they say.

I don't know what horse he has in the race to think this - but it's hilariously wrong and bizarre. So it's really not worth spending any time on in good faith.

 

[CharmingPsychopath]

Mark's actual seduction likely look NOTHING like what's written in 'Models' and it's shameful that he's deliberately lied in bad faith.

OMG. Then it's worse than I thought. I thought he's just a clueless idiot who believes his own nonsense.

I wouldn't continue down this path with Paulie - he genuinely has said and believes that EVERYTHING that everyone in seduction is doing is Mystery Method, no matter what they say.

I don't know what horse he has in the race to think this - but it's hilariously wrong and bizarre. So it's really not worth spending any time on in good faith.

Yes, I've noticed.

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Are you one of those people who have a emotional problem with admitting they were wrong?

As shown by the quote in my earlier post, Mystery himself said directly that the point of a neg is to "make her insecure". These are his own words.

As I've said already, since he has changed his message later, there are two options:

1. Mystery genuinely changed his mind.

No he didn't "change his mind" his explanations about negs not being an insult or to put her down. Date back to 1998.

Guys like you just WRONGLY assumed the worst in bad faith. Even the report you quoted had him EXPLAINING it's not about insults or putting her down but go on with the cherry picking

2. Mystery didn't reallly change his mind, but softened the message to improve his image.

No he didn't do that to improve his image. Lol. He did it because guys like you MISUNDERSTOOD what he said thinking he was talking about insulting women

You're delusional. Because you have no way of knowing how would other guys, or even you, perceive my women.

Nah. I know for a FACT tastes are different. Why don't you show us what a 9 or 10 looks like

From what I've seen, there seemed to be a change upwards when Mystery became famous (and possibly rich).

Lol

OMG.

There is a very wide consensus she's not a 9.5 and that rating her so is absurd. Even if Mystery would find her super hot for some bizarre reason, he would know from his friends and random people's reactions that in reality she's not that hot. (Do you think guy concentrated on social dynamics didn't notice the difference between how people react to Katya and to women who are really super hot?).

This was done in order to promote Mystery as the cutting edge, genius pickup artist. Because people imagining Mystery having a 9.5 girlfriend creates a way more attractive image than people imagining Mystery having a 6, max 7 girfriend.

This was marketing, a DHV routine designed to promote Mystery. It was literally gaming the readers.

Imagine trying to lecture me on marketing. Laughable.

By your logic... if you post a girl you feel is a 9 and there's a "wide consensus" that she's a 5 then you're lying. What a silly point to make.

Again, kindly let us know what kind of women you consider a 9 or 10.

Something you will probably never understand. Just like you don't understand many other things.

Lol sure