Starting out.... Dating coaches, therapists, wings, mentors etc.

[raiden]

Hi GC community. I'm an incel and I want to finally break free of it. I've had many sad or bad experiences in the past and so I'd say that I don't have the most positive attitude. I could probably be described as bitter or resentful or at least miserable.

I think that I definitely need the help of somebody professional or more experienced. Should I start with a dating coach or a therapist or some other kind of professional? I know that many dating coaches are shysters and even those that aren't may not have the expertise to help somebody in my position.

Background on me. Nb this is just the way that I see things ; others may disagree and I may be wrong. I've tried the usual crap of getting in shape, doing a bit of daygame and online dating systems. I have done around 40 approaches in life, all years ago, and quickly concluded that street stops were a waste of time. I typically get shut down in the first 20 seconds because I don't have the looks required to get the attraction which, according to what I have read here, is there or isn't from the outset. Online I have used professional photoshoots and photos designed by my friends, all tested on photo testing websites. if I'm lucky I can get one date every 2 months and it always goes badly. Usually the woman wants to get out of there ASAP. Most recently I tried to completely restrict my conversation and it happened even worse. Sometimes a date will be enjoyable but nobody wants to go on more dates ever. I believe that i am a lost cause but I just want to feel like I'm doing something before I get too old. My goal is to date cisgender women who aren't more overweight than I am and not too old compared with myself. Originally I really wanted the marriage children family but I think now that this would be aiming too high.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Hey Raiden.

I've tried the usual crap of getting in shape, doing a bit of daygame and online dating systems.

Did you actually get in shape? I mean did you go through with it to the end where you had a nice sixpack and good definition or even some mass?

About the two styles of game you tried, it's no surprise that you failing. They both seem deceptively simple but in reality they're both very difficult.

1. I mentioned this in other posts, which you may have seen if you were lurking: Direct street stops are NOT for beginners. It's absolutely ludicrous that daygame coaches run around teaching newbies to stop the hottest girls they see in the street and open with a compliment. That's gonna have a low success rate at best and will only lead to hundreds of rejections and a battered self esteem at worst. So - don't beat yourself up if street stops haven't been working for you.

2. And online game, read this (click), it should put your mind at ease about your failures in that area also. Not your fault.

I don't have much time for the forum at the moment, but I saw your thread as I was replying to a private message and I want to help you. I see a lot of pain on these boards lately and I believe it can be solved. Because I believe much of it comes from how culture and technology have messed with people's heads (that word "cisgender" you used is a great example of how confused people are).

If you're serious, tell me a bit about your social life outside of pickup. Real world only, no online friends or interactions... how often do you socialize per week? With what kind of people? Describe anything you think relevant. I'm guessing you probably have deficiencies in these areas and you gotta learn to walk before you can run.

 

[Starboy]

@raiden in my experience if ur on the street it's not neccesary to stop the girl it depends on the context. U can walk with girls too if ur in a metropolitan environment where ur on a tight and compact sidewalk and there's people around she'll feel uncomfortable to stop right there. If u compliment a girl and she hooks or responds positively as ur walking u can have a convo with her as long as u naturally look like ur walking in the same direction and she's open to having a conversation. If she's acts very visibly uncomfortable and she doesn't even try to talk to you then u can just eject.

If you reach the end of the block then u can try and stop her then and say "hey let's stop to talk here for a minute" and if she's not in a rush or if she's willing to be compliant with you then u can chat and find out what she's up to,build some rapport,flirt and if u can't instadate her there then get her #.

I think the community is too rigid about the need to stop girls if u open her. Also front stops are very jarring I would avoid at the start only try it when u get more relaxed and ur in a empty chill laidback environment. If she's talking back with you and enjoying the conversation that's what matters. If you wanna see a visual example of what walking and talking would look like watch some clips of ag hayden on youtube.

I will say that it's easier to stop girls at the park. Idk if u have big parks where u live where u can meet women consistently,but relaxed chill environments are always easier to stop and have a conversation with women.

Idk what kind of trauma u have from early on in your life and what sort of experiences lead you to have low self worth. I have a similiar background,but the first step is to accept that you had a negative upbringing and are at a disadvantage compared to others. It's unfortunate that people are in a position like this,but the good news is that you're not a lost cause! You can change your life and the narrative around it if you're willing to put in a lot of effort, try new things and trust and believe in the process.

There are coaches that can help you even if you have bad inner game and limiting beliefs. There definetly are guys who are scammers. You'd wanna find coaches who can relate somewhat to being at low points as a lot of other coaches who were good with women from a young age can't relate very well and offer good instruction. For me Tony is one i'd recommend from here ,but I don't know how active he is now. From outside gc I think Austen Summers and Coach Kyle are very good and Karisma King as well. These are my suggestions if you wanted to know of a coach.

Anyways man 40 daygame approaches is more than men will try in their life so props on that,but if you really want tangible results you have to multiple that exponentially. Maximize your looks,improve your fundamentals,and see what works. Don't think you have to copy and follow what you read from here and do things exactly as someone says to do it. I made that mistake a lot with being too mechanical and rigid trying to follow pickup "rules". This is not a science this is a art and there's multiple ways to get the job done.

 

[raiden]

Hey Raiden.

Did you actually get in shape? I mean did you go through with it to the end where you had a nice sixpack and good definition or even some mass?

About the two styles of game you tried, it's no surprise that you failing. They both seem deceptively simple but in reality they're both very difficult.

1. I mentioned this in other posts, which you may have seen if you were lurking: Direct street stops are NOT for beginners. It's absolutely ludicrous that daygame coaches run around teaching newbies to stop the hottest girls they see in the street and open with a compliment. That's gonna have a low success rate at best and will only lead to hundreds of rejections and a battered self esteem at worst. So - don't beat yourself up if street stops haven't been working for you.

2. And online game, read this (click), it should put your mind at ease about your failures in that area also. Not your fault.

I don't have much time for the forum at the moment, but I saw your thread as I was replying to a private message and I want to help you. I see a lot of pain on these boards lately and I believe it can be solved. Because I believe much of it comes from how culture and technology have messed with people's heads (that word "cisgender" you used is a great example of how confused people are).

If you're serious, tell me a bit about your social life outside of pickup. Real world only, no online friends or interactions... how often do you socialize per week? With what kind of people? Describe anything you think relevant. I'm guessing you probably have deficiencies in these areas and you gotta learn to walk before you can run.

I was already in shape from the start. I mean that I have been in shape since I started all of this pickup stuff. Fitness was always my hobby. I have more of a Brock Lesnar physique and less of a Ryan Gosling physique. But anyway, I learned that being in shape is totally irrelevant to your results so I just keep this up for my own enjoyment and pleasure.

1. I definitely know that. I found that on the streets - especially the busy ones - people are in general very sceptical of strangers who approach them, worrying that they might be trying to sell something or scam them. That is going to make the pickup guy's work (which is already very difficult on the streets where you and the person you are approaching don't belong to the same 'group' like you may do in a college club party) even more difficult. Plus, the actual physical part of moving into position, getting a moving person to stop and talk to you adds extra difficulty. But there doesn't seem to be any alternative besides signing into the dating services. Bars and/or clubs are too loud and require drinking and/or staying up which I dislike and which I would also dislike in people that I date (actually irrelevant because I'd never in a million years score a date in such a venue anyway...). But many people who I've found on this same path here seem to be all about doing their 20-40 approaches per week, putting their 2-4 hours in on the street every week. I see some guys do this and get no dates after 6 months. I don't want to judge these guys negatively but seeing stuff like this gave me extra motivation to give up.

2. Yes but what is the alternative? Back 5 or so years ago, online was less competitive and I could get a date or two. They all went quite badly but I'd give a lot to just go back to that state now. Now I can not get a date at all.

I have perhaps 5 friends who I might hang out with and are not just online buddies. 5 might seem like a small number but remember what Muhammad Ali said about friends.... I hang out maybe once per month with friends and the rest of the time I enjoy my time alone. I actually made one of these friends by warm/cold approach!

 

[Railer]

I believe that i am a lost cause

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

I learned that being in shape is totally irrelevant to your results so I just keep this up for my own enjoyment and pleasure.

Interesting. In my experience, being in shape helped. A few comments on that though.

1. The sweet spot is "fitness model". A little mass but not that much and quite lean. A lot of guys go overboard and get too big for girls' tastes.
2. Girls definitely like sixpacks. When I had one, I found just lifting my shirt in the bedroom and letting her see/feel it accelerated things. Also good for beach pickup.
3. High muscle mass means more base level testosterone, which should help with X-Factor (see my signature). As far as I read, muscle is an endocrine organ and changes your hormonal profile. Helps with pheromones, too
4. Low bodyfat percentage changes a man's face. Makes him look more cut, masculine and handsome. Some examples, before/after:

Here's some more:

OneTab - Shared tabs

www.one-tab.com

There's tons of these on the bodybuilding.com forum where people post their transformations. I collected them for motivation 11 years ago when I was looking for the next level in game and went through a transformation like this myself (and it's actually time for me to do this again).

All this to say, I think you have one advantage in place already. An advantage anyone can have if they so choose.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

I found that on the streets - especially the busy ones - people are in general very sceptical of strangers who approach them, worrying that they might be trying to sell something or scam them. That is going to make the pickup guy's work (which is already very difficult on the streets where you and the person you are approaching don't belong to the same 'group' like you may do in a college club party) even more difficult. Plus, the actual physical part of moving into position, getting a moving person to stop and talk to you adds extra difficulty.

Yeah. I had it to a point where I was quite consistent with it once, but I can't even do it now. It's advanced, it requires momentum, a lot of confidence, great fundamentals, great verbal game and a great vibe. Not for beginners at all.

But there doesn't seem to be any alternative besides signing into the dating services.

I gave this a lot of thought a few months ago as I'm starting over as a beginner myself basically. With a lot of knowledge and experience, but no recent success or momentum. I forgot a lot of what I had internalized and am re-learning from scratch. So I can see the problem:

• Street stops require confidence that comes from success, so not a good place to start.
• Online game is rigged against us these days (always was, to be honest... more on that below)
• Social circle is risky, and with low momentum if you strike out on a female friend it's embarrassing
• Clubs are too loud, competitive, dark, all that
• If you go after girls that are too hot, with low momentum you will be smitten
• If you go after girls that aren't hot enough, it won't really build your confidence

The list goes on... but it's a total catch 22 all around, yes? No matter how you look at it, it's just road blocks everywhere. It basically seems impossible from the perspective of a guy who's not currently getting laid to get even 1 girl, leave alone a real playboy lifestyle. I can really relate to this perspective now. Which I think is great. I think it's going to help me help other guys out better once I'm back on top.

But many people who I've found on this same path here seem to be all about doing their 20-40 approaches per week, putting their 2-4 hours in on the street every week. I see some guys do this and get no dates after 6 months. I don't want to judge these guys negatively but seeing stuff like this gave me extra motivation to give up.

Yeah man, this "teaching total newbies direct game on walking targets that look like models" is absurd. I'm not sure how it ever caught on, but I'm sure it contributed to the general negativity guys have towards dating these days (along with the apps).

But so what's the solution? What kind of game can you even run when you're low on confidence and momentum and vibe and social skills? These are my thoughts:

1. Don't try to get the girl yet. This is not step 1 in your development. Three steps to build your social skills with men and women in general:
   1. Build a social life. At the VERY minimum, you should meet people twice a week. Once a week do a group thing, and once a week hang out with a friend one on one. Better to do this 3-4 times a week rather than twice.
   2. Add females to your social life! You need to become as comfortable shooting the shit with women as you are shooting the shit with guys who have the same interests as you. If you can't talk to a girl for a few hours and have it be fun, how can you seduce one?
   3. Become a "scenster". (I know the word has negative connotations... whatever). Find out where cool venues are to go out at night and start hanging out there. Not the loud ones. Just befriend people there, don't go for pickup yet. See and be seen, make some friends.
2. Once you do start to talk to girls, avoid all the difficult sets. Focus on 2 kinds of sets only as a beginner:
   1. Groups! I know group sets seem scarier but they're actually a lot easier. You can just talk to the girls who aren't your type or to the guys in the group, so there's no intimidation factor. Just practice befriending the whole group for now.
   2. Lone wolves. Talk to girls who are alone, but not the ones who are walking. Focus on girls that are just standing around somewhere, or seated. Stopping a girl that's currently walking somewhere is just a lot harder than talking to a captive audience
   3. Remember! Do not do any of this (approaching either groups or stationary lone wolves) until AFTER you have built your social life, added female friends and started just befriending people in the "scene" of your city. Approach is step 4! Not step 1.
3. Finally, when you try to get girls on dates, I recommend focusing on a very narrow range of girls in terms of their looks.
   1. As I said above, you don't want to go after girls that are your ideal type. They will make you nervous but more importantly, even if you get them, there's a huge chance you will be smitten with them, fall in love quickly or otherwise lose control of the situation
   2. Also avoid girls that you aren't actually attracted to for "practice". If you sleep with girls you don't actually like, I find it can actually hurt your self image and make you less confident rather than more.
   3. Target a "narrow range" of girls that you feel drawn to and that you find sexy and attractive and that you would like to have some fun with, but that are not your ideal type.

Yes but what is the alternative? Back 5 or so years ago, online was less competitive and I could get a date or two. They all went quite badly but I'd give a lot to just go back to that state now. Now I can not get a date at all.

In my experience, online has always been shit for average looking guys. I never did that well with it. I got some lays here and there but even 10-15 years ago it was a huge numbers game as pictures are front and center and you can't convey your charisma, body language, etc.

Tinder has made this worse, I guess on dating sites guys used to date down 1-2 points and now it's 3 points but the concept is pretty much the same. Online game was always frowned upon among pickup artists, a supplement at best, a cop-out at worst.

It also doesn't really train your skills because once you do get a girl from online to meet up with you, she's pretty much down. She's looking for a guy, she liked your pictures, it's pretty much a done deal. Tinder lays are piss easy (if you can get the dates, which is hard for average Joe).

I have perhaps 5 friends who I might hang out with and are not just online buddies. 5 might seem like a small number but remember what Muhammad Ali said about friends....

I don't, what did he say?

I hang out maybe once per month with friends and the rest of the time I enjoy my time alone.

So, my diagnosis was spot on, yes? As I guessed, you have deficiencies in your normal social life. I mean I get it, I can be a loner for weeks and months and be perfectly content. But then when the itch to meet a girl stirs, it seems like an insurmountable feat!

I think of charisma as a "social muscle". Yours just HAS to be atrophied from 29 days a month alone in your room, there's no way it isn't. And in that state, you can't expect to do well on dates. Leave alone on a street stop direct opener!

So since you have a gym and fitness background, the "social muscle" concept will make sense... at the very least a muscle needs to be warmed up and stretched before it does something difficult... but really it should be grown consistently, by stressing it 3-4 times a week + recovery.

I actually made one of these friends by warm/cold approach!

Nice!

I hope this was helpful. I went into more depth because I've been meaning to write this about 5 months ago when I first came up with the concept (summation: don't start with approaching, build a social circle, add females to it, make friends in the scene, chat up groups and lone wolves indirect, and focus on the narrow range in terms of looks).

There's more to it and I will share the rest in good time but this is a good primer. Follow the steps above and your charisma and social skills will improve. You will have a lot of friends and meet girls through your friends. You will be socially proved, confident, and more talkative. Then approaching girls becomes a lot easier too.

-Karea Ricardus.

 

[raiden]

Hey man I just realized after typing my response that you're the respected GC author Ricardus. I respect and like your work... so I hope that I don't offend you in my responses and I appreciate the effort that you have put in.

Interesting. In my experience, being in shape helped. A few comments on that though.

1. The sweet spot is "fitness model". A little mass but not that much and quite lean. A lot of guys go overboard and get too big for girls' tastes.
2. Girls definitely like sixpacks. When I had one, I found just lifting my shirt in the bedroom and letting her see/feel it accelerated things. Also good for beach pickup.
3. High muscle mass means more base level testosterone, which should help with X-Factor (see my signature). As far as I read, muscle is an endocrine organ and changes your hormonal profile. Helps with pheromones, too
4. Low bodyfat percentage changes a man's face. Makes him look more cut, masculine and handsome. Some examples, before/after:

Here's some more:

OneTab - Shared tabs

www.one-tab.com

There's tons of these on the bodybuilding.com forum where people post their transformations. I collected them for motivation 11 years ago when I was looking for the next level in game and went through a transformation like this myself (and it's actually time for me to do this again).

All this to say, I think you have one advantage in place already. An advantage anyone can have if they so choose.

We are not talking about being fat and losing weight, we are talking about what kind of body shape is optimal to get approach invitations. I maintain that body shape isn't important. If you had Brad Pitt's Troy physique then you'd look like an average slim guy in clothes. Me with my Brock Lesnar type physique I have some size in clothes but I know that it's irrelevant and even if it was relevant it might not be viewed as a positive. For your point 2 for example, you were already in the bedroom so the hard work was done. Things wouldn't have turned sour if you had taken off your shirt to show a chubby physique.

Yeah. I had it to a point where I was quite consistent with it once, but I can't even do it now. It's advanced, it requires momentum, a lot of confidence, great fundamentals, great verbal game and a great vibe. Not for beginners at all.

I gave this a lot of thought a few months ago as I'm starting over as a beginner myself basically. With a lot of knowledge and experience, but no recent success or momentum. I forgot a lot of what I had internalized and am re-learning from scratch. So I can see the problem:

• Street stops require confidence that comes from success, so not a good place to start.
• Online game is rigged against us these days (always was, to be honest... more on that below)
• Social circle is risky, and with low momentum if you strike out on a female friend it's embarrassing
• Clubs are too loud, competitive, dark, all that
• If you go after girls that are too hot, with low momentum you will be smitten
• If you go after girls that aren't hot enough, it won't really build your confidence

The list goes on... but it's a total catch 22 all around, yes? No matter how you look at it, it's just road blocks everywhere. It basically seems impossible from the perspective of a guy who's not currently getting laid to get even 1 girl, leave alone a real playboy lifestyle. I can really relate to this perspective now. Which I think is great. I think it's going to help me help other guys out better once I'm back on top.

Yeah man, this "teaching total newbies direct game on walking targets that look like models" is absurd. I'm not sure how it ever caught on, but I'm sure it contributed to the general negativity guys have towards dating these days (along with the apps).

But so what's the solution? What kind of game can you even run when you're low on confidence and momentum and vibe and social skills? These are my thoughts:

1. Don't try to get the girl yet. This is not step 1 in your development. Three steps to build your social skills with men and women in general:
   1. Build a social life. At the VERY minimum, you should meet people twice a week. Once a week do a group thing, and once a week hang out with a friend one on one. Better to do this 3-4 times a week rather than twice.
   2. Add females to your social life! You need to become as comfortable shooting the shit with women as you are shooting the shit with guys who have the same interests as you. If you can't talk to a girl for a few hours and have it be fun, how can you seduce one?
   3. Become a "scenster". (I know the word has negative connotations... whatever). Find out where cool venues are to go out at night and start hanging out there. Not the loud ones. Just befriend people there, don't go for pickup yet. See and be seen, make some friends.
2. Once you do start to talk to girls, avoid all the difficult sets. Focus on 2 kinds of sets only as a beginner:
   1. Groups! I know group sets seem scarier but they're actually a lot easier. You can just talk to the girls who aren't your type or to the guys in the group, so there's no intimidation factor. Just practice befriending the whole group for now.
   2. Lone wolves. Talk to girls who are alone, but not the ones who are walking. Focus on girls that are just standing around somewhere, or seated. Stopping a girl that's currently walking somewhere is just a lot harder than talking to a captive audience
   3. Remember! Do not do any of this (approaching either groups or stationary lone wolves) until AFTER you have built your social life, added female friends and started just befriending people in the "scene" of your city. Approach is step 4! Not step 1.
3. Finally, when you try to get girls on dates, I recommend focusing on a very narrow range of girls in terms of their looks.
   1. As I said above, you don't want to go after girls that are your ideal type. They will make you nervous but more importantly, even if you get them, there's a huge chance you will be smitten with them, fall in love quickly or otherwise lose control of the situation
   2. Also avoid girls that you aren't actually attracted to for "practice". If you sleep with girls you don't actually like, I find it can actually hurt your self image and make you less confident rather than more.
   3. Target a "narrow range" of girls that you feel drawn to and that you find sexy and attractive and that you would like to have some fun with, but that are not your ideal type.

In my experience, online has always been shit for average looking guys. I never did that well with it. I got some lays here and there but even 10-15 years ago it was a huge numbers game as pictures are front and center and you can't convey your charisma, body language, etc.

Tinder has made this worse, I guess on dating sites guys used to date down 1-2 points and now it's 3 points but the concept is pretty much the same. Online game was always frowned upon among pickup artists, a supplement at best, a cop-out at worst.

It also doesn't really train your skills because once you do get a girl from online to meet up with you, she's pretty much down. She's looking for a guy, she liked your pictures, it's pretty much a done deal. Tinder lays are piss easy (if you can get the dates, which is hard for average Joe).

I don't, what did he say?

So, my diagnosis was spot on, yes? As I guessed, you have deficiencies in your normal social life. I mean I get it, I can be a loner for weeks and months and be perfectly content. But then when the itch to meet a girl stirs, it seems like an insurmountable feat!

I think of charisma as a "social muscle". Yours just HAS to be atrophied from 29 days a month alone in your room, there's no way it isn't. And in that state, you can't expect to do well on dates. Leave alone on a street stop direct opener!

So since you have a gym and fitness background, the "social muscle" concept will make sense... at the very least a muscle needs to be warmed up and stretched before it does something difficult... but really it should be grown consistently, by stressing it 3-4 times a week + recovery.

Nice!

I hope this was helpful. I went into more depth because I've been meaning to write this about 5 months ago when I first came up with the concept (summation: don't start with approaching, build a social circle, add females to it, make friends in the scene, chat up groups and lone wolves indirect, and focus on the narrow range in terms of looks).

There's more to it and I will share the rest in good time but this is a good primer. Follow the steps above and your charisma and social skills will improve. You will have a lot of friends and meet girls through your friends. You will be socially proved, confident, and more talkative. Then approaching girls becomes a lot easier too.

-Karea Ricardus.

I need to start with 1. Do I really have to move around my schedule to hang out with people 2-4 times per week (assume that there are people who would be willing to hang out with me)? People work 9-11 hours per day and then have to do their life maintenance, train 1.5 hours per day 4x per week, meals etc. and that leaves just a few days to unwind with a book or video game. Want to work less? Ok great but you can't afford rent/mortgage/bills. Want to work out less? Ok great but you will no longer have a good physique. It is a punishing life for men. I actually cut back on some of my hobbies such as art so that I could get in more video game time. Maybe all spare time needs to be diverted to this social skill stuff.

 

[ElderPrice]

Hi GC community. I'm an incel and I want to finally break free of it. I've had many sad or bad experiences in the past and so I'd say that I don't have the most positive attitude. I could probably be described as bitter or resentful or at least miserable.

I think that I definitely need the help of somebody professional or more experienced. Should I start with a dating coach or a therapist or some other kind of professional? I know that many dating coaches are shysters and even those that aren't may not have the expertise to help somebody in my position.

Background on me. Nb this is just the way that I see things ; others may disagree and I may be wrong. I've tried the usual crap of getting in shape, doing a bit of daygame and online dating systems. I have done around 40 approaches in life, all years ago, and quickly concluded that street stops were a waste of time. I typically get shut down in the first 20 seconds because I don't have the looks required to get the attraction which, according to what I have read here, is there or isn't from the outset. Online I have used professional photoshoots and photos designed by my friends, all tested on photo testing websites. if I'm lucky I can get one date every 2 months and it always goes badly. Usually the woman wants to get out of there ASAP. Most recently I tried to completely restrict my conversation and it happened even worse. Sometimes a date will be enjoyable but nobody wants to go on more dates ever. I believe that i am a lost cause but I just want to feel like I'm doing something before I get too old. My goal is to date cisgender women who aren't more overweight than I am and not too old compared with myself. Originally I really wanted the marriage children family but I think now that this would be aiming too high.

Thanks for your advice.

Congrats on making the decision to improve your life!

I think you absolutely need a therapist before you try any more dating coach/game kind of stuff.

You clearly have many negative, limiting beliefs, and low self-esteem. This is what requires your attention. This is what's repelling the women you interact with. It isn't your looks. It's your vibe, it's all the negative shit in your head that oozes out in your body language, unbeknownst to you.

It's going to be a big undertaking to re-wire your brain to be positive, and to believe in yourself, but it can absolutely be done as long as you want it. And this isn't to realize your goal of dating an average woman... Conquer this challenge and you'll have way better, in all areas of life.

 

[Glow]

Girls definitely like sixpacks. When I had one, I found just lifting my shirt in the bedroom and letting her see/feel it accelerated things. Also good for beach pickup.

I had forgotten the usage of "masculine physicality displays" to escalate things. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Warped Mindless]

The whole “if your lean you will just look average in clothes” thing is dumb. Wear tighter clothes.
I’m lean and women notice it right off the bat. I have an Abercrombie model build: not huge but lean and some muscle. I wear tight shirts and have good posture. Trust me, women know.

 

[Terms]

I was already in shape from the start. I mean that I have been in shape since I started all of this pickup stuff. Fitness was always my hobby. I have more of a Brock Lesnar physique and less of a Ryan Gosling physique. But anyway, I learned that being in shape is totally irrelevant to your results so I just keep this up for my own enjoyment and pleasure.

If pickup is the priority, you might want to slim down a bit. If you look like Brock Lesnar, a lot of typical PU advice may not work for you, you'll have to calibrate to an extreme first impression and all the assumptions that go along with it.

If you look that threateningly extreme, and your underlying emotional state is "bitter or resentful or at least miserable," you're going to flat out scare many people away.

Being in shape, and the right kind of shape, which is a subset of how you look in general, is all very relevant. As is the underlying attitude towards life you choose to adopt. All this is foundational stuff, before the specifics of game even really begin.

If you choose to keep that physique, you'll need to tone many things way down, and most certainly work on the negative attitude towards life in general. Where most need to start by building comfort, you may have to start with simply making people feel safe.

EDIT -

Another thought. The more extreme looks tend to be polarizing, meaning they'll make things easier with the small set of people who are attracted to the (more rare) extreme look, while making things more difficult with the average person.

So another option is to keep the look and choose your targets wisely, understanding that general approaches will be more difficult for you, but approaches of those who are into your rare look will be easier.

The Ryan Gosling / Brad Pitt physique is a maximizer, it'll get you the warmest responses from the most people. A WWE look is a polarizer, meaning you trade very warm and hot responses in a smaller set of people, for colder responses in general.

 

[raiden]

Google Image Result for https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Edward-Norton-Brad-Pitt-Fight-Club.jpg?quality=74&strip=all

Can you tell who has the top tier physique from that photo? Neither one of these guys is going to turn heads with their physiques looking like that...

Anyway I think that the discussion has gotten out of hand. I don't mean to denigrate anybody or promote a certain kind of physique but just to argue that physique is quite irrelevant and that I believe that getting approach invitations due to your physique is a pipe dream. I have more of a brock lesnar build because I like it and believe that nobody cares either way but myself. I actually had the leaner physique in the past and women were flat out surprised when I told them that I enjoyed working out, because they couldn't tell. I have shirtless photos of back then and I thought that it showed.

I want to explore therapy before considering spending a large amount on a dating coach. Do I just go and say that I'm incel and miserable?

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Hey man I just realized after typing my response that you're the respected GC author Ricardus. I respect and like your work... so I hope that I don't offend you in my responses and I appreciate the effort that you have put in.

No worries man. It's cool to be honest with us and with yourself about where your head is really at... otherwise change will be impossible. Also, I'm not typing this only for you. I hope it will help a lot of other guys who come across this thread too.

We are not talking about being fat and losing weight, we are talking about what kind of body shape is optimal to get approach invitations.

Note that I didn't mention approach invitations in my post. I'm not a good looking guy, sadly. If I relied on girls sending me signals cause they like the way I look I'd be a virgin. Or I'd just get average looking girls. Game is the art of making it happen. Anyone can lay a girl that already likes him before he opens his mouth.

I was talking testosterone, pheromones, mood and X-Factor. And having a more cut, distinctive and masculine face (see the screenshots I posted). It does make a guy a bit more handsome. I'll admit it's not a huge advantage that makes it all a downhill battle just from that. But it helps. It's in your "assets" column.

For your point 2 for example, you were already in the bedroom so the hard work was done. Things wouldn't have turned sour if you had taken off your shirt to show a chubby physique.

Fair.

I need to start with 1. Do I really have to move around my schedule to hang out with people 2-4 times per week

I think so. Mating is a primal affair that evolved over millions of years. A female meets a male who has no friends, no tribe, who is completely alone in the world... and her deepest instincts, millions of years of evolution, thousands of ancestors scream at her: "this guy will not survive!" She's not going to align with that.

There's an idea in the dating community that it's possible to be a loner geek, to live in a cave... and once in a while put on the bat cape and swoop down on the city like a super hero and pick up a model to drag her back to the lair. It doesn't really work that way... this is a social pursuit. That's why fame is so attractive.

You can play sniper game, go out alone, pick up a girl who's out alone too, I've done it a lot. But you will still have to talk to her for 3-4 hours, so whether or not you have a life will come across. She's going to find. out. I had friends, social circles I at least visited semi regularly, travel, adventure, a high value identity (musician).

I think maybe even more important, I had a passion for life and my goals, which translates into charisma. When I was 22, one of the hottest girls I ever dated told me she liked me because "you know exactly what you want in life, and you go after it". She also said that distinguished me from most guys.

All of these are traits that can be cultivated, not something you're born with (as opposed to looks). Hey, even Hugh Grant totally struck out in "About a Boy" when the girl at the party finds out he's a blank.

(assume that there are people who would be willing to hang out with me)?

Why do you think nobody would be willing to hang out with you? I'm guessing you've just developed a very strong habit of introversion that will be difficult to break. But unless you have autism, which would have to be addressed separately, we all come wired from the factory with the ability to make friends. Humans are social animals by nature.

But, I do believe it is a muscle that needs to be worked out. Social skills can atrophy. Dating skills can atrophy. They can also be built and re-built. Even before this 10-year hiatus, I took 4 months off from the game from time to time and it was always a struggle to get back into it. But after a couple of weeks it's cool. Like the gym!

People work 9-11 hours per day and then have to do their life maintenance, train 1.5 hours per day 4x per week, meals etc. and that leaves just a few days to unwind with a book or video game. Want to work less? Ok great but you can't afford rent/mortgage/bills. Want to work out less? Ok great but you will no longer have a good physique. It is a punishing life for men.

Yeah, I agree. It's very hard to properly balance life in this modern society. Partially because men actually used to just get married early and then the whole dating thing was done. Most work was physical, so no need for gym.

So then back in the day you'd have a family... and you'd have work for maybe 8 hours a day, and that's about it. Free time which was almost entirely social (friends and family) - there were no screens. I'm trying to get back to that kind of life style gradually, something I'm working on too. Alternative is loneliness + screen. Fuck that.

I actually cut back on some of my hobbies such as art so that I could get in more video game time. Maybe all spare time needs to be diverted to this social skill stuff.

After signing off, I thought of this too... that your problems is probably the screens. Even if you're NOT meeting girls on the apps. If there were no screens, there is no way anyone would stay in his room for 29 days a month. It'd be so lonely and boring, you'd go out just to get some mental stimulation of any kind.

So yeah... I would recommend you gradually reduce screen time. I grew up without getting girls. Wanted them at age 12. Got nothing til 19. Lots of video games in those 7 years. Then I ditched them totally until I was able to get the kinds of girls I wanted consistently. Then, I played again without feeling weird about it.

At this point I'm almost never on the screen at all anymore. I watch basically no shows or movies anymore, never play games anymore, I still check my email but other than that I only use the phone to arrange meetups in the real world. No chit chat on the screen.

I came to the realization that "socializing on the screen" is an oxymoron, a contradiction. We're completely alone when we're doing it, so, that's not socializing. I have stopped almost all of it. Very freeing! Feels great to get out there again and like... wow! The sun is shining! There are people in physical bodies around! Amazing!

Can you tell who has the top tier physique from that photo? Neither one of these guys is going to turn heads with their physiques looking like that...

No tight clothes, as Warped Mindless said. Anyway the fitness thing was a side note. Main point for you is social life vs. screen time I think.

I want to explore therapy before considering spending a large amount on a dating coach. Do I just go and say that I'm incel and miserable?

I think the odds of finding a therapist who has even 1% the expertise in getting dates that we do on this board is basically nil. If you feel you need therapy for other reasons, it may be helpful. But I think your main problem is you've developed habits of introversion and being a loner, which can be transformed over time.

My recommendation is to gradually start chipping away at these bad habits. Doesn't mean you have to hang out socially 4 times a week overnight. Just start small... you said currently you meet someone once a month. Switch that up to once a week for now, and add just one female friend. Build it all up gradually.

This is a huge project. Going from incel to social guy who gets dates is a major feat. I'm not gonna lie, I think most guys who try never make it. But, I think you have what it takes because you won in the gym! That requires the exact same mindsets, discipline, dedication and goal pursuit. Very similar process.

What would you tell a fat guy who can't jog 2 minutes without getting out of breath? Start slow. Go for thirty minute walks and sometimes pick up the pace for a minute. Do some pushups on your knees. Lift any weight that you can do 8-12 reps with, no matter how light. Baby steps.

And as I mentioned on a couple of threads, back in the day the seduction community had a strong self-help bent. I think that's huge. Personal growth mindsets, affirmations, goal setting, persistence, positivity, all that stuff... I've always found it helps to have those kinds of audios going on my headphones from time to time, and apply the mindsets to dating.

Gradually reduce the screen time, little by little... and gradually increase the social life... baby steps get you there, all the way.

-Karea Ricardus.

 

[ElderPrice]

I want to explore therapy before considering spending a large amount on a dating coach. Do I just go and say that I'm incel and miserable?

I know you feel down in the dumps, but come on, you know that's a stupid question.

Remove the sob story and just be clear: I haven't had success with women before. I want to change that. I think negativity and limiting beliefs are holding me back. This is what I need help with.

 

[raiden]

No worries man. It's cool to be honest with us and with yourself about where your head is really at... otherwise change will be impossible. Also, I'm not typing this only for you. I hope it will help a lot of other guys who come across this thread too.

Note that I didn't mention approach invitations in my post. I'm not a good looking guy, sadly. If I relied on girls sending me signals cause they like the way I look I'd be a virgin. Or I'd just get average looking girls. Game is the art of making it happen. Anyone can lay a girl that already likes him before he opens his mouth.

I was talking testosterone, pheromones, mood and X-Factor. And having a more cut, distinctive and masculine face (see the screenshots I posted). It does make a guy a bit more handsome. I'll admit it's not a huge advantage that makes it all a downhill battle just from that. But it helps. It's in your "assets" column.

Fair.

I think so. Mating is a primal affair that evolved over millions of years. A female meets a male who has no friends, no tribe, who is completely alone in the world... and her deepest instincts, millions of years of evolution, thousands of ancestors scream at her: "this guy will not survive!" She's not going to align with that.

There's an idea in the dating community that it's possible to be a loner geek, to live in a cave... and once in a while put on the bat cape and swoop down on the city like a super hero and pick up a model to drag her back to the lair. It doesn't really work that way... this is a social pursuit. That's why fame is so attractive.

You can play sniper game, go out alone, pick up a girl who's out alone too, I've done it a lot. But you will still have to talk to her for 3-4 hours, so whether or not you have a life will come across. She's going to find. out. I had friends, social circles I at least visited semi regularly, travel, adventure, a high value identity (musician).

I think maybe even more important, I had a passion for life and my goals, which translates into charisma. When I was 22, one of the hottest girls I ever dated told me she liked me because "you know exactly what you want in life, and you go after it". She also said that distinguished me from most guys.

All of these are traits that can be cultivated, not something you're born with (as opposed to looks). Hey, even Hugh Grant totally struck out in "About a Boy" when the girl at the party finds out he's a blank.

Why do you think nobody would be willing to hang out with you? I'm guessing you've just developed a very strong habit of introversion that will be difficult to break. But unless you have autism, which would have to be addressed separately, we all come wired from the factory with the ability to make friends. Humans are social animals by nature.

But, I do believe it is a muscle that needs to be worked out. Social skills can atrophy. Dating skills can atrophy. They can also be built and re-built. Even before this 10-year hiatus, I took 4 months off from the game from time to time and it was always a struggle to get back into it. But after a couple of weeks it's cool. Like the gym!

Yeah, I agree. It's very hard to properly balance life in this modern society. Partially because men actually used to just get married early and then the whole dating thing was done. Most work was physical, so no need for gym.

So then back in the day you'd have a family... and you'd have work for maybe 8 hours a day, and that's about it. Free time which was almost entirely social (friends and family) - there were no screens. I'm trying to get back to that kind of life style gradually, something I'm working on too. Alternative is loneliness + screen. Fuck that.

After signing off, I thought of this too... that your problems is probably the screens. Even if you're NOT meeting girls on the apps. If there were no screens, there is no way anyone would stay in his room for 29 days a month. It'd be so lonely and boring, you'd go out just to get some mental stimulation of any kind.

So yeah... I would recommend you gradually reduce screen time. I grew up without getting girls. Wanted them at age 12. Got nothing til 19. Lots of video games in those 7 years. Then I ditched them totally until I was able to get the kinds of girls I wanted consistently. Then, I played again without feeling weird about it.

At this point I'm almost never on the screen at all anymore. I watch basically no shows or movies anymore, never play games anymore, I still check my email but other than that I only use the phone to arrange meetups in the real world. No chit chat on the screen.

I came to the realization that "socializing on the screen" is an oxymoron, a contradiction. We're completely alone when we're doing it, so, that's not socializing. I have stopped almost all of it. Very freeing! Feels great to get out there again and like... wow! The sun is shining! There are people in physical bodies around! Amazing!

No tight clothes, as Warped Mindless said. Anyway the fitness thing was a side note. Main point for you is social life vs. screen time I think.

I think the odds of finding a therapist who has even 1% the expertise in getting dates that we do on this board is basically nil. If you feel you need therapy for other reasons, it may be helpful. But I think your main problem is you've developed habits of introversion and being a loner, which can be transformed over time.

My recommendation is to gradually start chipping away at these bad habits. Doesn't mean you have to hang out socially 4 times a week overnight. Just start small... you said currently you meet someone once a month. Switch that up to once a week for now, and add just one female friend. Build it all up gradually.

This is a huge project. Going from incel to social guy who gets dates is a major feat. I'm not gonna lie, I think most guys who try never make it. But, I think you have what it takes because you won in the gym! That requires the exact same mindsets, discipline, dedication and goal pursuit. Very similar process.

What would you tell a fat guy who can't jog 2 minutes without getting out of breath? Start slow. Go for thirty minute walks and sometimes pick up the pace for a minute. Do some pushups on your knees. Lift any weight that you can do 8-12 reps with, no matter how light. Baby steps.

And as I mentioned on a couple of threads, back in the day the seduction community had a strong self-help bent. I think that's huge. Personal growth mindsets, affirmations, goal setting, persistence, positivity, all that stuff... I've always found it helps to have those kinds of audios going on my headphones from time to time, and apply the mindsets to dating.

Gradually reduce the screen time, little by little... and gradually increase the social life... baby steps get you there, all the way.

-Karea Ricardus.

You did well without getting approach invitiations!? You're one in a million. Many of the articles here are centred around it and many of the field reports feature them. I thought that the presence or lack of approach invitations were a perfect predictor of how well the approach would go and that no invitation = no hope. This is new information to me.

I want to discount and discredit your passion for life thing when you were 22. In my experience, attraction really is there or not in the first minute or two. Having a passion for life is moving towards relationship game and away from straight pick up. I can not get a date to save my life. If I make an approach, the person "has to get going" within 2 minutes of the open.

I can reduce screen time but I only got this way because I was fed up. I took up more hobbies such as sports, arts, music etc. I enjoyed them but really I just wanted to appear to be a broad person with varied interests. No success at all with women like this so I gradually cut back and decided that I prefer my video games and screens. In the past year I actually said to my friend something like "thanks for your offer to hang out and even do some game at the end of the evening but I think that my time is better spent playing Playstation." Well, I guess I need to go back to socializing and fail again and ask for help here again. Or else I go back to socializing and things go well and I can work on another game sticking point instead, which is the best possible outcome. But I hope that you can see why I am resisting to do this.

The gym doesn't require the same mindset as becoming social or getting good at pickup. 20kg feels like 20kg every day. It's just you who change every time. In pickup, each person is different and so is each approach. There's a creative part to pickup that isn't there with gym. Also, with gym you can actually work hard and get better results. I haven't seen that much in pickup. Like I said, my experience of seeing this is guys doing their 2-4 hours per week of street approaching and getting no results, which made me think that the same result could be achieved by putting those 2-4 hours into watching TV!

Also I think that I could make male friends by cold or warm approach, but I will never get a female friend. I wanted female friends so every time one of those online date women suggested "let's be friends" I tried to take them up on it. But I never got a friendship out of it.

I know you feel down in the dumps, but come on, you know that's a stupid question.

Remove the sob story and just be clear: I haven't had success with women before. I want to change that. I think negativity and limiting beliefs are holding me back. This is what I need help with.

I don't think that limiting beliefs are holding me back. That's the problem. I saw a therapist for depression and they clearly told me that they can help with my depressive thoughts but can't get me dates and that I can't expect that to change as a result of therapy.

Anyway, thanks for your help people. I see the two main pieces of advice are
1) gradually socialize more with an effort to make more friends, including female, have a larger social circle, and be able to present myself as a 'social guy'.
2) Consider seeing a therapist regarding my resentfulness, bitterness, hopelessness etc.

I should do these things and come back in the future and report back, and ask for more help. Or I can go away and return to the screens. But I shouldn't post here for weeks crying about it.

 

[RedNeck]

The whole “if your lean you will just look average in clothes” thing is dumb. Wear tighter clothes.
I’m lean and women notice it right off the bat. I have an Abercrombie model build: not huge but lean and some muscle. I wear tight shirts and have good posture. Trust me, women know.

Agree . It is super easy to tell if a person has a fat around his waist or not .

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Well, guess people have lost interest in this thread, cause they perceive your attitude to be negative. I don't think you're TOO negative though. I can see you're sincere and want to actually change something. You're not the typical red pill guy who just wants to complain and not even try possible solutions. I know some of those guys and basically they'd rather just give up than even work on this area at all at this point.

Also, you bring up some very interesting points that I haven't seen discussed in a very, very long time. And, I'm waiting for a doctor's appointment regarding my insomnia so this is kinda fun.

You did well without getting approach invitiations!? You're one in a million. Many of the articles here are centred around it and many of the field reports feature them. I thought that the presence or lack of approach invitations were a perfect predictor of how well the approach would go and that no invitation = no hope. This is new information to me.

It's new information to me that game is now focused only on approach invitations. Is that true? I do see a bunch of lay reports where the girl basically does the work and I don't really rate those to be honest. If she initiates the conversation with blatant nonverbals or even opens, it's like... come on man. She wants it... you'd have to run actual anti-game and proactively fuck it up to not get her. SHE should write the LR!

Nah man, at least back in my day, one of the main rules was "don't rely on approach invitations". I guess good looking guys didn't find the dating community back then because it wasn't mainstream. So you'd have to get on the internet to proactively seek out information about "how to get dates" or you would never even stumble upon this information in the first place. We only had a handful good looking guys on the boards.

I'm in Latin America on business at the moment and even here I go through the world invisible. Nobody cares. But it can be overcome, and here's how: women value all kinds of traits in men, not only looks. Atrocious looks can disqualify you, but average looks won't. And so long as she doesn't disqualify you totally off the get, you can convey all the other traits women like.

I'm sure you've seen those all over the blog, but at the top of the list is social proof, there's humor, confidence, charisma, passion (yes this is attractive to women), social intelligence, leadership qualities, successful risk taking, healthy emotional wiring (this includes positivity and optimism btw, maybe one reason why you strike out?), creativity, wit, talents, the list goes on. Women like the ugliest musicians in the world for example.

So if you can (1) start a conversation without triggering an auto pilot rejection based on "he's not my type", and then (2) convey traits she does find attractive (other than looks), her interest in you can grow substantially. Have you heard that men are like light switches and women are like light dimmers? This applies to arousal but it also applies to attraction, interest and love. It can all be gradually dialed up.

This is obviously where indirect game comes into play. I've had girl-friends actually tell me I'm not their usual type. They wouldn't have given me approach invitations, or opened me, or responded well to a direct opener. My mentor CJ even went so far as to say it's an advantage, because if she thinks "he's not my type yet I'm still drawn to him", she will feel like it's somehow "more real".

I want to discount and discredit your passion for life thing when you were 22. In my experience, attraction really is there or not in the first minute or two.

Do you know Marie Forleo? She was a female dating coach (for women) before she started teaching business. She was asked about that in an interview once, and her response was very interesting. She said a woman will not decide in the first minute or two whether she likes you or not. The only thing that may happen this quickly is the decision "I will NOT sleep with him DEFINITELY".

In other words, relying on approach invitations, and on girls liking you from the get go, is playing green-light girls. This isn't game in my book. It's freebies. It's like going to Asia, or gaming ugly girls, a downhill battle. There's not much skill required. Just handle logistics, be cool and gradually escalate and, done. You can do this too if you lower your standards.

Girls disqualifying you immediately cause they definitely don't like you, is red-light girls. This can happen based on looks, but only if you're actually really ugly. Even that can be overcome, just like even a hot guy can still fuck it up for himself, but now we're talking an uphill battle obviously. If I was really ugly I'd definitely shoot for fame I think. Need something big to compensate.

For 90% of guys and with 90% of girls we meet, we're dealing with yellow lights. That's where the GAME is actually played. Man if she likes you from the open, it's easy. If she hates you from the open, move on to the next one. But most girls in most situations ARE yellow lights for most guys. That's where we do all our work. Fitness, fashion, bodylanguage, confidence, verbal game, etc.

Having a passion for life is moving towards relationship game and away from straight pick up.

What you are talking about was known as "game dynamics" - conveying to a girl whether you are looking for a short-term fun thing or a more serious long-term relationship. Having a passion for life doesn't flip this dynamic one way or the other. It's universally attractive because it's primal too: it displays a healthy emotional immune system and is a huge advantage to survive and thrive in this world.

I can not get a date to save my life. If I make an approach, the person "has to get going" within 2 minutes of the open.

Are these all direct approaches?

I can reduce screen time but I only got this way because I was fed up.

Yeah I get that. Was the same for me. Screen time is an escape from reality. It's a signal that something's wrong in real life and needs to be changed. It's fine to withdraw into these worlds from time to time by the way, while you're working on real life too. Life can beat you up, rejections from practicing game can beat you up. Sometimes need to curl up in a ball and rest and recover.

Man everyone wants to put on a tough face like "I'm the alpha everything's easy in my life". Guess what, that doesn't exist in this world. Planet Earth is TOUGH. It's a difficult realm we're in. You may see a guy who actually does have it easy with women, well but then he has other problems. Maybe his shoulder got fucked up lifting or he can't pay the mortgage or he got some club slut pregnant.

You seem to be under the impression that everyone is winning and you are losing... Looks to me like you have a job, and a nice body, so you already won in 2 out of 3 areas, at least on a basic level. Delete instagram and also take the forums with a grain of salt. This is all still screen time, meaning a fake reality where everyone projects whatever they want to project. The truth is, reality a mixed bag for everyone.

I took up more hobbies such as sports, arts, music etc. I enjoyed them but really I just wanted to appear to be a broad person with varied interests. No success at all with women like this so I gradually cut back and decided that I prefer my video games and screens.

I would pick one of them that you really enjoy, and focus on that, and make it your "girl-getting identity". For me that was music. I went pro and became quite successful, even internationally. And you know what? Girls didn't give a shit. I never got groupies or girls coming up to me after gigs. You have to be actually handsome for that.

But, I now enjoyed my job and I was excited about life in general because I didn't have to grind in some shit office I hated. It gave me a much more positive outlook in general, this "passion for life" I mentioned. Goal pursuit. Success just because I was into what I was doing. All of these are attractive. And they're attractive to girls when conveyed in conversation. Not enough on their own but nice bonus points you can score.

And if I ever did get a girl into a room with a piano in it, it was game over every time. So it wasn't enough to get them to approach me or even send strong signals like you say you're seeing all over the site these days, but it was enough to take it from 70% there to 100% if you will, and I can guarantee it helped during mid-game because yes... girls like guys who are talented. I'm gonna give my age away with this but:

If you wanna be with me
Baby, there's a price to pay
I'm a genie in a bottle (In a bottle, baby)
You gotta rub me the right way (Yeah)
If you wanna be with me
I can make your wish come true
You gotta make a big impression (Oh yeah)
Gotta like what you do

That last line. So true. Many girls have told me that. One girl said "this is the secret of why you shine". Charisma, in other words. I do all my work with charisma since I can't do it with my purty face. If you don't have the face, focus on the yellow lights and learn real game to flip them green!

The gym doesn't require the same mindset as becoming social or getting good at pickup. 20kg feels like 20kg every day. It's just you who change every time. In pickup, each person is different and so is each approach.

You have more studying to do. There's a seduction community concept called a "gameplan", ever heard about it? Let's say you run the same opener on 20 sets in a row. There will only be 3 or 4 different responses, maybe 5. You can practice all of them, and after a while it's like groundhog day and the sets are all the same. You start to see where conversations are going before they unfold. It's like seeing the matrix.

Don't buy into the "natural game" thing. It's an oxymoron. If you want consistent output, you need a consistent process and consistent input. [NOTE: I know some guys have a different philosophy... no need to debate it... because the debate has been going since 2008 and has become boring and stale. I'm just sharing my view].

The PUAs I studied under did 15-16 lays per month from cold approach and without being handsome. I do not believe this is possible without a gameplan... chatting up girls saying random shit, whatever comes to mind, throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall... some of it will stick. Extremely high success ratios require doing a lot of things right. Pickup is a lot like sales that way. The best sales people all plan their presentation.

There's a creative part to pickup that isn't there with gym. Also, with gym you can actually work hard and get better results. I haven't seen that much in pickup. Like I said, my experience of seeing this is guys doing their 2-4 hours per week of street approaching and getting no results, which made me think that the same result could be achieved by putting those 2-4 hours into watching TV!

Yeah but go back to previous posts. This is direct street stops, which I've explained why it's not for beginners. You need to learn indirect game. I have seen total transformations. Guys who start out and get nothing for 6 months but keep going out 4 nights a week anyway, practicing their opening game, their body language, their social skills.

After 6 months, suddenly boom... first lay. Confidence grows. Motivation is renewed. 2-3 years later they get laid consistently, a few times a month. Many such cases. This was the norm, 10-15 years ago. Lots of journals like this on the boards. I think mine will look like that again too since I'm starting over after 10 years of doing no cold approach at all. I'm not worried about any failures, they all teach and calibrate you.

Also I think that I could make male friends by cold or warm approach, but I will never get a female friend. I wanted female friends so every time one of those online date women suggested "let's be friends" I tried to take them up on it. But I never got a friendship out of it.

Yeah when a woman says after a date "let's just be friends", she's not saying "let's be friends"... she's really saying "I'm not feeling it, sorry". I would suggest you go join a bunch of groups where people are into similar interests as you and just talk to everyone there, and you will naturally click with some of the people, and some of them will be women. They can be old ladies at first or ugly girls or whatever. Just get some feminine energy into your eco system.

I don't think that limiting beliefs are holding me back. That's the problem. I saw a therapist for depression and they clearly told me that they can help with my depressive thoughts but can't get me dates and that I can't expect that to change as a result of therapy.

Yeah, a therapist can't get you dates. It's not part of what they learn or teach. If you are suffering from depression though, this will be a roadblock to getting dates because again, health is extremely important to attraction since it's all primal and about survival and making babies. And emotional and mental health are very important aspects of that.

Not sure if you read my X-Factor articles in my signature but I basically discovered a long time ago that my consistency in game was down to how I came across that day. One day I was out with mASF elder chur and was in such a good mood chatting all day that I approached 7 girls and laid 3 of them. My best day ever. I went out one day a month later and I think I approached 10 girls and got zip. Nothing.

Went home defeated and was like WTF? I feel like such a loser. But when I wrote the third lay report in a single week, I felt like I was untouchable. What's going on? Same guy! Dressed the same. Doing the same things even, because I do use gameplans. Answer is in how I came across one day vs. the other day. And how you come across is down to how you FEEL. Women pick up on that.

So, yeah, fixing your depression will help you get more dates. Your therapist can't help you get dates, but feeling better will reduce a big obstacle. You'll come across differently, have a different vibe, and that will be more attractive. Read the X-Factor articles if you want more on this. By the way, in my experience Ayahuasca can be a great tool to deal with depression, BUT you need a very good facilitator. PM me for details if interested.

I should do these things and come back in the future and report back, and ask for more help. Or I can go away and return to the screens. But I shouldn't post here for weeks crying about it.

I hope you won't give up on yourself man. I know you had a dream once of what life could be. And it seems out of reach now. But trust me, it's not. Saying that as someone who has seen both sides of the picture. I've been in that frustrated lonely place where it seemed pretty much hopeless and I just fled into fantasy realms on the screens. And I've been on the very top of the dating game too.

Don't give up on yourself, you can do this. You can! I see the qualities in you that are required to win. Just take it one step at a time. It's hard work, but in the long run it's less difficult than not doing the work. "Life is hard if you live it the easy way, and easy if you live it the hard way"... I think Joe Polish said that. If you're willing to put in the work, there are tools available to solve the problems.

You're right, you have a choice to make now. After that, it's up to you.

-Karea Ricardus.

 

[ElderPrice]

@Karea Ricardus D. - Legendary post!

 

[raiden]

Well, guess people have lost interest in this thread, cause they perceive your attitude to be negative. I don't think you're TOO negative though. I can see you're sincere and want to actually change something. You're not the typical red pill guy who just wants to complain and not even try possible solutions. I know some of those guys and basically they'd rather just give up than even work on this area at all at this point.

Also, you bring up some very interesting points that I haven't seen discussed in a very, very long time. And, I'm waiting for a doctor's appointment regarding my insomnia so this is kinda fun.

People haven't lost interest. I have just been given my advice and now I need to go away and act on it and come to another sticking point before asking for more help.

It's new information to me that game is now focused only on approach invitations. Is that true? I do see a bunch of lay reports where the girl basically does the work and I don't really rate those to be honest. If she initiates the conversation with blatant nonverbals or even opens, it's like... come on man. She wants it... you'd have to run actual anti-game and proactively fuck it up to not get her. SHE should write the LR!

Nah man, at least back in my day, one of the main rules was "don't rely on approach invitations". I guess good looking guys didn't find the dating community back then because it wasn't mainstream. So you'd have to get on the internet to proactively seek out information about "how to get dates" or you would never even stumble upon this information in the first place. We only had a handful good looking guys on the boards.

I'm in Latin America on business at the moment and even here I go through the world invisible. Nobody cares. But it can be overcome, and here's how: women value all kinds of traits in men, not only looks. Atrocious looks can disqualify you, but average looks won't. And so long as she doesn't disqualify you totally off the get, you can convey all the other traits women like.

I'm sure you've seen those all over the blog, but at the top of the list is social proof, there's humor, confidence, charisma, passion (yes this is attractive to women), social intelligence, leadership qualities, successful risk taking, healthy emotional wiring (this includes positivity and optimism btw, maybe one reason why you strike out?), creativity, wit, talents, the list goes on. Women like the ugliest musicians in the world for example.

So if you can (1) start a conversation without triggering an auto pilot rejection based on "he's not my type", and then (2) convey traits she does find attractive (other than looks), her interest in you can grow substantially. Have you heard that men are like light switches and women are like light dimmers? This applies to arousal but it also applies to attraction, interest and love. It can all be gradually dialed up.

This is obviously where indirect game comes into play. I've had girl-friends actually tell me I'm not their usual type. They wouldn't have given me approach invitations, or opened me, or responded well to a direct opener. My mentor CJ even went so far as to say it's an advantage, because if she thinks "he's not my type yet I'm still drawn to him", she will feel like it's somehow "more real".

Do you know Marie Forleo? She was a female dating coach (for women) before she started teaching business. She was asked about that in an interview once, and her response was very interesting. She said a woman will not decide in the first minute or two whether she likes you or not. The only thing that may happen this quickly is the decision "I will NOT sleep with him DEFINITELY".

In other words, relying on approach invitations, and on girls liking you from the get go, is playing green-light girls. This isn't game in my book. It's freebies. It's like going to Asia, or gaming ugly girls, a downhill battle. There's not much skill required. Just handle logistics, be cool and gradually escalate and, done. You can do this too if you lower your standards.

Girls disqualifying you immediately cause they definitely don't like you, is red-light girls. This can happen based on looks, but only if you're actually really ugly. Even that can be overcome, just like even a hot guy can still fuck it up for himself, but now we're talking an uphill battle obviously. If I was really ugly I'd definitely shoot for fame I think. Need something big to compensate.

For 90% of guys and with 90% of girls we meet, we're dealing with yellow lights. That's where the GAME is actually played. Man if she likes you from the open, it's easy. If she hates you from the open, move on to the next one. But most girls in most situations ARE yellow lights for most guys. That's where we do all our work. Fitness, fashion, bodylanguage, confidence, verbal game, etc.

Well, I don't like to name names or anything but out of the GC guys, I remember that Chase wrote an article about finding the best approach spots by going to different areas and counting the number of approach invitations. Hector's big realization that he needed to learn seduction was when he had a woman who was asking him to be her boyfriend but was too nervous to move anything forward. Those examples are totally unrelatable for me because I get 0 approach invitations everywhere and if there were a woman actually wanting me to be her boyfriend, I'd go along with it and be happy.

Are these all direct approaches?

Yes. It has all been direct approaches for me. But unlike the people who taught me the direct approach, I made up a new opener for new approaches rather than using the canned one. It didn't make a difference. Regarding indirect game, I've read about it here and I should be able to learn it. But the problem again is where and when to make the approaches. One can always go out on the streets to approach but indirect approaches are usually not suitable for the street.

You seem to be under the impression that everyone is winning and you are losing... Looks to me like you have a job, and a nice body, so you already won in 2 out of 3 areas, at least on a basic level. Delete instagram and also take the forums with a grain of salt. This is all still screen time, meaning a fake reality where everyone projects whatever they want to project. The truth is, reality a mixed bag for everyone.

I was on this forum back in 2017 under a different account (in fact the old user structure was deleted I think). I purchased a GC product too. For me, winning is doing well with women and losing is being incel. I have wanted get good results with women for over 10 years ("wanting" and doing something about it are quite different, of course). If I even do end up doing well, I'd have to make up something or be mysterious about my relationship history, because it's completely empty and I know that this would appear strange at my age. I would trade a lot of stuff for it. I actually tried to sign up to a sugar dating service last year but couldn't even score a date on there with the money that I was offering, so gave up.

You have more studying to do. There's a seduction community concept called a "gameplan", ever heard about it? Let's say you run the same opener on 20 sets in a row. There will only be 3 or 4 different responses, maybe 5. You can practice all of them, and after a while it's like groundhog day and the sets are all the same. You start to see where conversations are going before they unfold. It's like seeing the matrix.

Ok that's something that I could do. I have kept records of so many things like my bodyweight, weight lifted, food eaten, hours of sleep etc. etc. I could test out different openers and approach styles. But I don't want to go back to the streets.

Yeah, a therapist can't get you dates. It's not part of what they learn or teach. If you are suffering from depression though, this will be a roadblock to getting dates because again, health is extremely important to attraction since it's all primal and about survival and making babies. And emotional and mental health are very important aspects of that.

Not sure if you read my X-Factor articles in my signature but I basically discovered a long time ago that my consistency in game was down to how I came across that day. One day I was out with mASF elder chur and was in such a good mood chatting all day that I approached 7 girls and laid 3 of them. My best day ever. I went out one day a month later and I think I approached 10 girls and got zip. Nothing.

Went home defeated and was like WTF? I feel like such a loser. But when I wrote the third lay report in a single week, I felt like I was untouchable. What's going on? Same guy! Dressed the same. Doing the same things even, because I do use gameplans. Answer is in how I came across one day vs. the other day. And how you come across is down to how you FEEL. Women pick up on that.

So, yeah, fixing your depression will help you get more dates. Your therapist can't help you get dates, but feeling better will reduce a big obstacle. You'll come across differently, have a different vibe, and that will be more attractive. Read the X-Factor articles if you want more on this. By the way, in my experience Ayahuasca can be a great tool to deal with depression, BUT you need a very good facilitator. PM me for details if interested.

I haven't read the articles yet. But I've gone through that. I've felt optimistic or relaxed after a vacation. I've felt confident after having a mini victory and shown up on my online dates or gone approaching. I had a bad result all the same. So even if what you are saying is true, I really don't buy into it. The difference that your mood makes is how dejected you are after your rejections; if you are in a good mood, you'll shrug it off.

I hope you won't give up on yourself man. I know you had a dream once of what life could be. And it seems out of reach now. But trust me, it's not. Saying that as someone who has seen both sides of the picture. I've been in that frustrated lonely place where it seemed pretty much hopeless and I just fled into fantasy realms on the screens. And I've been on the very top of the dating game too.

Don't give up on yourself, you can do this. You can! I see the qualities in you that are required to win. Just take it one step at a time. It's hard work, but in the long run it's less difficult than not doing the work. "Life is hard if you live it the easy way, and easy if you live it the hard way"... I think Joe Polish said that. If you're willing to put in the work, there are tools available to solve the problems.

You're right, you have a choice to make now. After that, it's up to you.

-Karea Ricardus.

I might give up. I am in contact with coaches locally and some guys are telling me that I've had too many negative experiences and so I need to go online dating, follow my coach's instructions perfectly and get at least some not totally negative experience before I go out approaching. Other coaches will take me out approaching but I know how that goes... the coach is a glorified wing. And some guys tell me to forget the coaches now and go to a therapist. I know that most coaches suck so I'll probably go through multiple. The amount of work needed by me just seems like so much and it seems to be in addition to other standard life pressures. Approaching is easy enough but going out and getting no results, sacrificing my video game for it, will make me more bitter. As for the online dating route, I've had 4 photoshoots and I'm being recommended to have a 5th and then build up my Instagram (Instagram is a joke...) to do it. There are no shortcuts.

I was thinking of quitting everything and going 'NEET'. I wouldn't become an angry pill guy, but just be a heavy video gamer. And it all comes down to the fact that I'm unhappy with my personal life due to this stuff. I sometimes ask myself rhetorically how things could be so bad for me to still be incel after all these years... well it's not a productive question. But incels really are rare, even though they are more common now than 10-20 years ago. I must be a really bottom tier guy.