The problem with dating apps (and how to solve it)

[Karea Ricardus D.]

This has been on my mind for a while and maybe I'll make a more in-depth post about it at some point, but since there have been so many frustrated posts on the forum lately, I'd just like to point out real quick what I think is the biggest source of that frustration, at least if you're using smart phone apps to meet women.

The problem:

Guys will usually swipe right on any girl they consider "doable". For most guys, that's pretty much most girls unless they're really fat or ugly. In other words, most girls get swiped right by most guys.

If you chat a girl on tinder when it's her first day on the app, the interaction will be similar to one in real life. It'll basically be a conversation. The same girl a day later has noticed that 95% of guys she swiped right on turn out to be a "match." At that point she has to be more selective or her chat becomes unwieldy.

Once this realization sets in, she starts swiping right only on legitimately "hot guys". Many of those will be matches too, even though she's an average girl, because as I mentioned above... most guys will swipe right on anything they consider "doable".

So the apps create a situation where even femals 6s match with male 9s all the time. There is a 3-point SMV discrepancy in the matchmaking that takes place on these apps!

I know a lot of guys who are actively dating in a lot of different countries and the results for the past 4-5 years have been universally the same: men always date down on the apps. They always end up with girls that are less attractive than what they used to get in cold approach pickup.

There are exceptions sometimes, but those have always turned out to be nutters, in the experience of all my friends and myself. So what you get on the apps is basically two kinds of women: either 3 points less attractive than what you could get in real life, or bat shit crazy.

The good news and solution:

Here's the good news: This situation sucks for women too. I know many guys reading this will be asking, "how does this suck for women, Karea? They get total abundance and are dating up 3 points, sounds like paradise! Why would this suck for the girls?"

The reason is that when a girl hooks up with a guy who is so far out of her own league (3 SMV points), he will consider her only one-night stand material. He's obviously not going to commit to a girl who's far less attractive than some of the better matches (which he also gets if he's a male 9).

The result is that women meet really attractive guys on the apps, and then get pumped and dumped. And then they get pumped and dumped again. And again, and again, and again. And as much as women try to be feminists and "date like men", even that show "sex and the city" admitted that doesn't work.

It's unbelievably unfulfilling to women, and crushes their self esteem totally. They make a connection with a guy they really like, they go to bed, he disappears. Repeat, and repeatagain. I've heard comments like "ghosted again? Not one guy ever even wants as much as a friendship?"

It's because dating up by such a wide margin causes as many problems as dating down by such a wide margin does.

The Solution:

Delete the apps forever and go out. All our resident forum members who actually get laid a lot agree that women have not become more difficult compared to 10 years ago (see this thread, click). At least not in the real world... on the apps however, different story. My favorite post is the one by Teevster:

During lockdown I played around with Tinder. It made me feel like I was the least attractive guy on the planet. Totally self-confidence wrecking (mind you that I have professionally taken pictures).

I can tell you that I would get no results and Tinder - barely match with anyone, barely get any response.... while pulling 2 girls a week end in September. You can't play around with Tinder if you don't have your real infield game in check. When you do, you can play with Tinder as a supplement - the lack of results won't screw with your head.

In summation, tl;dr:

Dating apps create a 3 point SMV gap. Female 6s match male 9s. This causes as many problems for women as it does guys, because it leads to them getting pumped and dumped consistently buy guys that are actually out of their league. In the real world none of this applies. Cold approach is the same as ever.

Let's go pick up some girls. Online game has always existed, even in the early days of our seduction and dating community in the late 90s. But it was always meant as a supplement, not the meat and potatoes.

2c.

-Karea.

 

[Derek da man]

Delete the apps forever and go out

This works for me and has been getting better and better as I up my game and become more efficient. It's also much more satisfying in real life and does the ego good too.

 

[ulrich]

The reason I finally quit apps two years ago was because this exact thing happened to me.

I was getting a couple of regular to slightly chubby girls in Tinder every month and getting laid with them who will invariably ghost me after the first date.
No matter what I did.

Women use apps to date up (look wise) and then ghost the guy after coming up to the conclusion that they can’t keep up with him.

If you already got good looks and game, you will get cuter women and more enjoyable interactions from cold approach.

 

[Train]

I had the same experience mentioned here. Basically matched with girls with about -3 SMV and with attitude and/or flakiness to boot.

And I'm not considered ugly or average looking either. Pictures were not professionally taken though.

Meanwhile in real life hotter girls are more receptive and throw IOIs.

Also I strongly relate with what Teevster said. Tinder destroys my self-confidence every single time I use it. Without fail lol.

 

[ElderPrice]

Agreed. And don’t forget another side to it, let’s call it the business side.

The user base is something like 70% men, 30% women.

The number of women can’t go too low or else *everyone* will leave the app. Just like nightlife - if your bar can’t bring in young, beautiful women, you’re dead man walking.

So to keep women around, they tweak the algorithm to boost the hottest guys.

Hence, the hidden truth that too few men realize on these apps: It’s not that women are seeing you and rejecting you, it’s that your profile isn’t even being shown to them.

Hence hence, why you need to spend hundreds on platinum and boosts to have a chance.

 

[ulrich]

Hence hence, why you need to spend hundreds on platinum and boosts to have a chance.

Even then, you're choosing from a pool of mostly average to bad looking girls.

I have a theory that Tinder keeps inactive profiles of hyper attractive females and shows them in men's feeds to keep the illusion that there are more hotties using the app than the reality of its mostly average looking userbase.

 

[ProblemSolving]

Tinder has been Pay to Win ever since they started aggressively monetizing the app with various tiers of memberships and boosts. Even if you're Giga Chad with a top tier profile, your matches will start flooding in when your account is new, but it won't be long before your account will be shown to fewer and fewer women until your matches dry up. This is to incentivize ALL guys to spend as much money as possible if they want to enjoy continued success on the app.

The algorithm is designed to favor those that spent the most money, that is what businesses do. (Note, if your profile sucks, then no amount of money spent will help you.)

The algorithm is designed to sabotage a man's self esteem, so that he must pay money to keep the gravy train going.

The more guys that spend money in your area, the tougher it is for any one of them to be seen by women, which forces them to spend even more money. It acts like an auction driving up the price of matches (they have to boost more in order to get X amount of matches).

Also note that ALL dating apps have fake profiles that they create themselves. This is to retain engagement from men. As long as new pictures of hot women continue to be shown, men will continue to pay. If an app were to run out of attractive women to show you, then you obviously will stop using the app, so they just create fake ones to keep your engagement.

There have been Instagram and Youtube celebrities that have discovered tonnes of fake dating profiles using their pictures. Most people think that it's just lonely losers catfishing with nothing better to do, but in most cases, it's Tinder employees creating these profiles (They benefit the most).

If any of these fake profiles gets reported, Tinder just deletes the profile and blames it on a rogue user.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Couldn't agree more with the original post.

Only caveat I'd add is I've met a handful of normal / attractive girls from online. Every single time they:

1. Were new to the city or country
2. Didn't stay on the app for very long

So when using it as a supplement (if you decide not to delete it) focus on those girls. You'll be a lot happier.

Online is also useful for building quick momentum for guys who know what they're doing.

 

[Bismarck]

My experience with Tinder during the COVID lockdown in 2020 was very similar to Teevster's.

I also wrote an article about it.

 

[TomInHo]

Couldn't agree more with the original post.

Only caveat I'd add is I've met a handful of normal / attractive girls from online. Every single time they:

1. Were new to the city or country
2. Didn't stay on the app for very long

So when using it as a supplement (if you decide not to delete it) focus on those girls. You'll be a lot happier.

Online is also useful for building quick momentum for guys who know what they're doing.

I have a similar experience as well

You can find quality girls online but they are like finding a needle in the hay stack.

Also something else that can help with with getting more attractive girls online is hammering down hard on your fundamentals. Because online is a mostly a visual platform you need to stand out from the pack

And as seducers sometimes we focus a lot on the verbals but in online you have to sub-communicate you are a lover through your photos. When you do this well, the texting process to setup dates will go smoothly

Also another hack I use to make things easier is to give girls a "Call To Action" in your bio. This means you should be telling girls to contact you first

For example, I have a prompt on my Hinge profile that says "Bet you can't break the ice first". This will help you weed out girls and reveal who has high interest in you.

Just by doing that simple thing I went from getting 2-3 girl to message me first in a week, to 2-3 girls messaging me first in a day. It is that powerful but it makes sense because you are asking them for compliance up front and it builds a smooth Yes ladder for you to set up the date

Online dating works but you have to learn how it really works to take full advantage

 

[Warped Mindless]

I’m a good looking guy (have had modeling offers before) and even I do shit on Tinder unless I “pay to play.”

Half the good looking women on there are fake, attention whores, bots promoting social media or onlyfans accounts, etc.

Approach in real life and women will respect your balls.

 

[whyumad?]

I think online dating requires the most effort to get a good profile but in the long run is the easiest to have a pipeline/funnel of new girls. While cold approach requires some effort to make an approach, but not as much to make a good profile, but harder to have a pipeline/funnel of new girls.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

Delete the apps forever and go out.

*raises glass*

 

[app13]

i've fucked a handful of girls on tinder, but i will say that it is definitely is hit or miss. most of the time i end up getting 1 or 2 matches a week

i don't recommend anyone use the online dating apps seriously to be honest. there are way too many problems with them to be actual lead sources

i have tried in the past by making new accounts every 2-3 days to take advantage of the noob boost. basically if you're account is new you get 1-2 days of an initial boost, that's when a majority of your matches come in because tinder will be putting your profile first in front of the girls

after the first 2 days of account creation though? your profile is in the absolute shitter. i have a theory that unless you're top 1% in looks, your account will go to shit after 2 days of opening it, no matter who you are. meaning, no matches for 99% of guys after 2 days

like someone has mentioned, the userbase is 70% men. there are simply not enough girls that are active on the app

and in general online dating has fucked the world for both men and women. all it's really done is given the power and fruits of enjoyment to the top % men and women. the majority of women are average looking. they are being showered by dudes that just want to fuck them, which for the most part has little value to a majority of women

most girls that are actually looking to date, end up leaving tinder shortly after using it. the only thing left on the app is attention seeking girls that want validation. you can see for yourself, almost every mid 20s chick on there has some stupid bio/headline that she made to get attention or try to be funny

and it goes without saying: the majority of men are getting absolutely nothing. no dates, no matches, no lays

the thing about cold approach is that it's actually more enjoyable than online, even though the end result is mostly the same: lots of rejections

because at least with cold approach, you get that initial 10 seconds to talk to an attractive chick. on the dating apps, you can't even interact with the girls. so you're sitting there just swiping hot girls all day long. hundreds of girls that you would love to fuck, but you know that you'll never match with any of them or ever be able to talk to them lol. it's like browsing a catalog of hot girls all day. i would say that is the main reason why the online apps suck to be honest

 

[Beck Bass]

I met my girl on Tinder. It was at the very peak of the COVID thing though, and I managed to match her at the right time, she had gone out with two chumps and then she met me, so it was smooth sailing, we almost fucked the next day we matched (even if she was not that sexual or sexually experienced, I was playing really chill because I knew she was in bag, even if she was super intelligent and feminine).

I had Tinder for more than two years before though, and it was mostly for laughs. I fucked a crazy redhead that gave me foot job on a regular hotel (not a love hotel, a normal one, since she was putting so much resistance, even though she wasn't even that hot, I was like, let's sleep then... I wake up an her tits are out and shit lmao) and went out with some other average crazy chick that had daddy issues and ghosted me after the date. I also fucked some chubby girl with zero personality, hope she never reads this, I feel bad for the girl, but I can't change her life, really.

Other than that, it was all some big freak shitshow. Some girls (aparently hot) would come saying they wanted to fuck, to then 10 minutes later tell me it was taking too long and they were giving up (like bitch you live on the other side of town, I don't even know if you're real, chill). Bunch of fats girls, crazy girls, attwhores, assexual weird people. And then I would match with a seemly normal hot girl, and she would tell me she lives far, far away from me... Or she left town. And most would match and never actually answer.

I have a friend though that used Tinder in some other way. He would follow the hot girls on IG and start reacting to their crap, then start talking with them about jack on the messages, and eventually some would come out with him. Apparently he got with some really cute girls this way, but it just seems like too much damn effort to me (he never talked about conversion ratios or anything).
I myself followed one beautiful young girl in particular, and this girl posted she was going to this club I frequented back on the day a lot, so I was like, ok, I'm going there as usual, let's see if she shows up. So I'm there working on some other sets, cute girls, going smooth, then she appears out of the blue asking something silly to our group. I felt so weird, like I was stalking this girl in some weird way, she even looked at me, but I couldn't do much, didn't feel right. I suppose you could follow the hotties to see where they hang out and stuff, but other than that, Tinder is useless for me, for the most part (even if I met my girlfriend there and I think she's a 10/10 girlfriend, it was just cheer dumb luck, like to fuck one beautiful girl after years on this crap).

 

[Beck Bass]

I think online dating requires the most effort to get a good profile but in the long run is the easiest to have a pipeline/funnel of new girls. While cold approach requires some effort to make an approach, but not as much to make a good profile, but harder to have a pipeline/funnel of new girls.

I think you wanna think that because online it's just easier, let's be real, opening your smartphone and even making the most advanced whatever profile is way easier than actually gettting the guts to go up to a girl and open her in real life out of the blue, let alone have the game to get somewhere with her (or at least it seems, until you do it). I had a friend that pulled a lot from Tinder, and let me tell you, his profile was pretty average, he was just a bit buff and had a "normal handsome guy face", his text game was talking about bullshit with girls non stop and asking them out every 30 minutes lol, but it kinda worked for him. But even him was frustrated with Tinder, in fact, I never seem anyone so pissed at Tinder, like most guys just give up, but since he had some results, he kept trying... He would get a bunch of gold diggers, girls with issues with exs they can't forget, this type of crap, he even moved to another city to be with another girl, and turns out this girl was dating some other ugly girl, her ex, while she was still with him... I was there with him, and we went to a club, he used very basic game, and he was pulling some hot girl from there, seemingly normal, as well lmao

I have a theory that Tinder keeps inactive profiles of hyper attractive females and shows them in men's feeds to keep the illusion that there are more hotties using the app than the reality of its mostly average looking userbase.

Lmao most girls don't even bother deactivating or deleting their profile (why would they), it's just there, and it shows up to anyone, my girl's profile is probably there, and guys probably think they have a chance with her, poor lads

 

[PureGold]

What about travesti? how do they fall under the dynamic you mentioned?
I think travestis are getting huge advantage of dating apps, since they swipe right on guys who are not very hot all the time

Lol

 

[whyumad?]

I think you wanna think that because online it's just easier, let's be real, opening your smartphone and even making the most advanced whatever profile is way easier than actually gettting the guts to go up to a girl and open her in real life out of the blue, let alone have the game to get somewhere with her (or at least it seems, until you do it)

To make an "advanced" profile that produces results is not easier than going up to talk to a girl out of the blue. If that were the case why would this post exist?

let alone have the game to get somewhere with her (or at least it seems, until you do it)

Don't make assumptions about me. Just because you match with a girl online doesn't mean it is a guarantee success, you need to text and eventually meet her in person and spit game.

He would get a bunch of gold diggers, girls with issues with exs they can't forget, this type of crap, he even moved to another city to be with another girl, and turns out this girl was dating some other ugly girl,

Cold approach isn't immune to getting girls like this?

I was there with him, and we went to a club, he used very basic game, and he was pulling some hot girl from there, seemingly normal, as well lmao

Well he has game that produces results so it doesn't matter if it is basic or not.

 

[Beck Bass]

Cold approach isn't immune to getting girls like this?

What I want to get into is that a smaller portion of the population is online, not every girl is on Tinder, in fact, very few are, compared to the general population. If you're doing daygame, you can meet pretty much every girl, since they have to go out, eventually, night game still has more girls than online, as far as I know, girls you would want to meet, anyway. Online just tends to have a bunch of the women that can't get dates in any other way (the broken, crazy women, also the fat and ugly ones), or girls that are not even interested in dating (like most hot girls there, that put their IG just to get followers).

Well he has game that produces results so it doesn't matter if it is basic or not.

Yes but it's not that hard, is what I want to say. If you get anywhere with a girl from Tinder, on a relationship where she isn't just using you or treating you like her little pet, you have some game, at least, maybe you just don't have the practice/habit of approaching.

Don't make assumptions about me.

Ok, I don't wanna offend anyone, sorry if I was disrespectful.

Just because you match with a girl online doesn't mean it is a guarantee success, you need to text and eventually meet her in person and spit game.

Exactly, my point is, if you have those skills, you can easily get better results just doing regular game, all you gotta do is learn how to approach and integrate that meeting part that Tinder does for you in your game. Is it effort? Of course it is, but I think it's a small effort compared to the fact that you're gonna have a much larger dating pool, with hot girls you would never have the chance to meet online.

I'm not here to say online is useless and absolute crap, heck, I met my girl on Tinder, and she's amazing, but it's just not an effective way of meeting hot/beautiful/smart/whatever you want type of women (unless you're into gold diggers and crazy women, that is). You wrote it could funnel really well, well, that maybe true if you're in the 1% top male profiles, but even then, you mostly will be dating down in looks, or dating crazy girls, which is just not worth it, I think. And if you're not in the top, forget it, it's terrible, nothing will waste more of your time, in my experience (you have the right to do and think whatever you want, I'm just trying to help).

There was a bunch of girls that I never matched with on Tinder (I don't even know if they used it properly, let's be real, most hot girls profiles are not even active), and that I managed to get with IRL, or that showed a lot of attraction towards me, and I had a real chance of making something happen. I once made out with a hot arabic girl on a uni party, and my friend (this one from Tinder) was mad at me and dumbfounded. Why? Because he matched with her on Tinder, but she never answered him, and there she was, coming into my group, and taking me out of it, to talk crap and let me squeeze her ass (of course, beforehand, I had approached her and ran my usual game, and we made out, but my friend didn't see that, so he was like, girls just come to you that easy?). I could sit here and tell you a bunch of similar stories, but I have the impression I would just be wasting my time...

 

[whyumad?]

Online just tends to have a bunch of the women that can't get dates in any other way (the broken, crazy women, also the fat and ugly ones), or girls that are not even interested in dating (like most hot girls there, that put their IG just to get followers).

Pre Tinder/Bumble/Hinge days I agree, obviously not the case now. That doesn't mean you won't get these types of girls online, but to say cold approach won't meet these types of girls is being disingenuous. Broken, fat, ugly crazy women also have to go outside

Ok, I don't wanna offend anyone, sorry if I was disrespectful.

No worries all good.

Of course it is, but I think it's a small effort compared to the fact that you're gonna have a much larger dating pool, with hot girls you would never have the chance to meet online.

This is where I disagree with you. If you have an "advanced" profile you can meet hot girls online and have a higher volume set than just cold approaching. The time/effort spent cold approaching is linear but the time spent swiping is exponential. E.g You approach 30 women a day, maybe get 10 numbers, of those maybe 5 meet up and of those 3 you sleep with. Vs online you swipe 100 women, you match 30 women, meet up with 15 of those etc etc.

I'm not here to say online is useless and absolute crap, heck, I met my girl on Tinder, and she's amazing, but it's just not an effective way of meeting hot/beautiful/smart/whatever you want type of women (unless you're into gold diggers and crazy women, that is).

Ironic isn't it?

You wrote it could funnel really well, well, that maybe true if you're in the 1% top male profiles, but even then, you mostly will be dating down in looks, or dating crazy girls, which is just not worth it, I think. And if you're not in the top, forget it, it's terrible, nothing will waste more of your time, in my experience (you have the right to do and think whatever you want, I'm just trying to help).

The problem is that most profiles are plain fucking trash. Lets say someone has a SMV of 7, but most of the time guys will have a profile that makes them look like a 3-4 out of 10. If Karea puts his profile here everyone can evaluate and see why he is not getting results.

Not only that, if we factor in social media like Instagram as well, if you have a good instagram it can help with cold approach a lot. I personally think instagram is the dating "LinkedIn" of the world, even with a poor cold approach if you can get her instagram and through your stories/posts demonstrate HV it is possible to turn things around.

I once made out with a hot arabic girl on a uni party, and my friend (this one from Tinder) was mad at me and dumbfounded. Why? Because he matched with her on Tinder, but she never answered him, and there she was, coming into my group, and taking me out of it, to talk crap and let me squeeze her ass (of course, beforehand, I had approached her and ran my usual game, and we made out, but my friend didn't see that, so he was like, girls just come to you that easy?). I could sit here and tell you a bunch of similar stories, but I have the impression I would just be wasting my time...

Like I said, online dating is not a quick fix nor is it an easy way to get laid. The only easy way is to pay to play.

Just because you get a match doesn't mean she will reply, just because she replies doesn't mean she will meet up, just because she meets up doesn't mean you will get laid etc etc. Obviously, meeting/cold approaching in person, women can feel your vibe/energy and the other factors of yourself instead of a 2D image and text.