Teevster and Watts Discussing Momentum and Decision-Making

Watts

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Moderator Note (Teevster): Hey there. So yesterday evening, Watts and I had a long discussion in my thread about the "purity gambit". The comment started out that the gambit would have helped him in his situation, but then the discussion quickly moved to other topics.

So in this discuss me and Watts discusses social momentum (mostly macro-momentum) and how it impacts us, as well as some theoretical discussions regarding the subject. We also discuss how momentum unfold, and how to play with low-momentum.

Finally we also discuss overall pick up mindsets, strategies, selection of strategies and decision-making and how all these key aspects that are sadly rarely discussed all come together to play a crucial role in your success.

Teevester

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This would have been a very useful gambit for my set this past Friday (Moderator note: he is as we know reffering to the "purity gambit)

In the attempt to pull (which failed) she hit me with the "I'm not that type of girl" line. (Moderator note: the purity gambit would in fact have reframed sex as not a big deal, and reframed having sex as natural, good and pure... and as something you desire, which would set a frame that would help you avoid getting such type of resistance from a woman - see thread with the gambit)

Truth be told it was a matter of logistics (FR to follow).

But this would be a good response, or even better preemptive frame, to take against the "pure/good girls don't have sex the same night" objection.

Thanks Alek!
 
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Teevster

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In the attempt to pull (which failed) she hit me with the "I'm not that type of girl" line.
Yupp this gambit would have DESTROYED THIS FRAME - it would have prevented it from emerging in the first place.

I follow the advice of Machiavelli - basically:
- Prevent bad shit from happening (fighting against what he calls fortuna)
- And know how to handle bad shit when it happens (having "Virtu" - nothing to do with virtue... virtu is for him the "knowing how" of dealing with situations)

Both these will help leaders to acquire power. For pick up both these will help you succeed and get a high meet to lay ratio. Master the Pro-active (prevent an event) and re-active part (react to an event).

Truth be told it was a matter of logistics (FR to follow).
Maybe - but remember, there is always SOMETHING that will block your interaction (unless you are lucky, but we do not rely on luck - my method is to always assume that wildcards and crap will occur - again a good tip from Machiavelli). So logistics was a blocker. Perhaps you could have solved it, perhaps not, but if you did not have this bad frame occurding ("I am not that type of girl") you would have had more playing room and more chances of handling the logistics block. Now of course, there is no such a thing as a perfect pick up (I am not giving you shit here) - however there is an IDEAL of a perfect pick up that we CONSTANTLY have to strive after.

You can tell I have been doing some academic work today....

But this would be a good response, or even better preemptive frame, to take against the "pure/good girls don't have sex the same night" objection
I comment as I read the comments, apparently you figured it out yourself.

Best,
 

Watts

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Yupp this gambit would have DESTROYED THIS FRAME - it would have prevented it from emerging in the first place.

I follow the advice of Machiavelli - basically:
- Prevent bad shit from happening (fighting against what he calls fortuna)
- And know how to handle bad shit when it happens (having "Virtu" - nothing to do with virtue... virtu is for him the "knowing how" of dealing with situations)

Both these will help leaders to acquire power. For pick up both these will help you succeed and get a high meet to lay ratio. Master the Pro-active (prevent an event) and re-active part (react to an event).
Couldn't agree more.

Maybe - but remember, there is always SOMETHING that will block your interaction (unless you are lucky, but we do not rely on luck - my method is to always assume that wildcards and crap will occur - again a good tip from Machiavelli). So logistics was a blocker. Perhaps you could have solved it, perhaps not, but if you did not have this bad frame occurding ("I am not that type of girl") you would have had more playing room and more chances of handling the logistics block. Now of course, there is no such a thing as a perfect pick up (I am not giving you shit here) - however there is an IDEAL of a perfect pick up that we CONSTANTLY have to strive after.
She had a friend from out of town staying with her... and this friend actually came over and interrupted our conversation when it was getting to her fantasies! haha

Truth be told I think I missed the best shot 2 hours previous, where I could have gotten her friend to go with the group to another bar (and us staying behind together), pulled her, fucked her, and then brought her to the other bar or just waited at her house for her friend to arrive.

I've done it this way before, and it was 12PM when this was occurring, so I think that was my closest to ideal method.

But I'm typing it up now, if you would take a look at it when I post it I would appreciate it.

And yes, having set this advantageous frame earlier would have been one more thing in my favor and possibly helped overcome the less than ideal extraction.

You can tell I have been doing some academic work today....
I comment as I read the comments, apparently you figured it out yourself.

Best,
No worries! I appreciate the input!
 

Teevster

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She had a friend from out of town staying with her... and this friend actually came over and interrupted our conversation when it was getting to her fantasies! haha
Huum, yeah that's a tense moment. Sometimes you can handle it, sometimes you simply cannot (however you can ALWAYS TRY YOUR BEST)

Truth be told I think I missed the best shot 2 hours previous, where I could have gotten her friend to go with the group to another bar (and us staying behind together), pulled her, fucked her, and then brought her to the other bar or just waited at her house for her friend to arrive.
That was legit mistake. But again this is a decision-making mistake (which can be fatal). these are usually the most underdiscuted in the community, yet IRL make up a real part of ACTUAL pick up.

The difference between the really good seducer, the good seducer, the decent and the noob is about how good overal strategic calls they make. This is probably the aspect of seduction that is almost only purely defined by field experience.

I like to see it that way: The guy who has been into pick up for 5 years having amazing results, and the veteran. Skill wise the veteran is most likely to do better, but not by much (diminishing return - however veterans have a deeper theoretical understanding) - however the veteran has been around longer and has seen more, including more abnormal situations. Therefore he has a bigger repertoire of what strategic calls (decisions) leads to what. Hence is more likely to call good shots.

Still we cannot predict the future and even the veterans can miscalculate. Again FORTUNA as Machialli says (I have labelled it wildcards) is a real thing and you cannot always conquer them. Sometimes the universe just fucks you in the ass. Or as Pablo and I say: "the stars did not align".

Anyway, just add this to your repertoir of experiences. Each failed decisions make you a better decision maker. Again as I have said to a noob (but is valid for experienced guys like you) is to always think long term - not getting the lay sucks, but if the experience of failing a lay can provide you with lessons that can help you get multiple lays in the future, then it is a win! At least long term. The long term thinker, is the winner of the game.

But I'm typing it up now, if you would take a look at it when I post it I would appreciate it.
I will! cannot promise you I will do it tonight since I am a bit exhausted. But if I forget, then PM me to remind me.

And yes, having set this advantageous frame earlier would have been one more thing in my favor and possibly helped overcome the less than ideal extraction.
Another lesson. I sense a coming star here.

Best,
Obvious but true!
 

Watts

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That was legit mistake. But again this is a decision-making mistake (which can be fatal). these are usually the most underdiscuted in the community, yet IRL make up a real part of ACTUAL pick up.

The difference between the really good seducer, the good seducer, the decent and the noob is about how good overal strategic calls they make. This is probably the aspect of seduction that is almost only purely defined by field experience.

I like to see it that way: The guy who has been into pick up for 5 years having amazing results, and the veteran. Skill wise the veteran is most likely to do better, but not by much (diminishing return - however veterans have a deeper theoretical understanding) - however the veteran has been around longer and has seen more, including more abnormal situations. Therefore he has a bigger repertoire of what strategic calls (decisions) leads to what. Hence is more likely to call good shots.
Definitely agree. I've even seen myself lose a good set on a small point, and then had the same issue come up weeks or a few months later, make the change, and get a SNL.

The problem I'm dealing with, which isn't a big deal, is that I'm going out again after not doing it much or with seriousness for a while. So while I will have a vague idea of the right call, I'm a half-step behind.

But it's just a matter of momentum and getting some rounds in. It comes back.

Not to mention, all the good advice I'm getting here, and all the good ideas I can implement. Plus I'm getting primed to think about game from the forums, both from reading and responding.

Still we cannot predict the future and even the veterans can miscalculate. Again FORTUNA as Machialli says (I have labelled it wildcards) is a real thing and you cannot always conquer them. Sometimes the universe just fucks you in the ass. Or as Pablo and I say: "the stars did not align".
Amor Fati - Love of fate.

Anyway, just add this to your repertoir of experiences. Each failed decisions make you a better decision maker. Again as I have said to a noob (but is valid for experienced guys like you) is to always think long term - not getting the lay sucks, but if the experience of failing a lay can provide you with lessons that can help you get multiple lays in the future, then it is a win! At least long term. The long term thinker, is the winner of the game.
Also, lays with the really outstanding girls. I'd rather be in the trenches and ready for when those fantastic opportunities exist, and the only way to do that is to keep going out.

I will! cannot promise you I will do it tonight since I am a bit exhausted. But if I forget, then PM me to remind me.
Thank you, I plan on getting it out tomorrow anyway. Whenever you get the chance though.

Another lesson. I sense a coming star here.

Best,
Obvious but true!
I appreciate that! It means a lot!
 

Teevster

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The problem I'm dealing with, which isn't a big deal, is that I'm going out again after not doing it much or with seriousness for a while. So while I will have a vague idea of the right call, I'm a half-step behind.
It is an issue of momentum as you mention yourself. However notice that when on low-momentum you simply do not get away with anything. On high momentum you do. You are not allowed to fuck up on things like logistics and decisions, since they are not that reliable on state. Decision making and strategic calls should not be momentum dependent! they are the elements that saves you when your state is shit!

Not to mention, all the good advice I'm getting here, and all the good ideas I can implement. Plus I'm getting primed to think about game from the forums, both from reading and responding.
Yes I love these discussions. Remind me of the old days! I am enjoying this nostalgia trip! Discussing actual field related stuff is a thing that sadly many guys don't enjoy doing on pick up forum for some reasons (threads that are about concepts and reflections tend to get more activity)

Amor Fati - Love of fate.
:cool::cool::cool:

Also, lays with the really outstanding girls. I'd rather be in the trenches and ready for when those fantastic opportunities exist, and the only way to do that is to keep going out.
Same. The mindset of a winner.

Thank you, I plan on getting it out tomorrow anyway. Whenever you get the chance though.
I am staying a bit more home now since I am a bit sick (hence why I am going forum nuts ATM).

I appreciate that! It means a lot!

You are welcome.

Best,
 

Watts

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It is an issue of momentum as you mention yourself. However notice that when on low-momentum you simply do not get away with anything. On high momentum you do. You are not allowed to fuck up on things like logistics and decisions, since they are not that reliable on state. Decision making and strategic calls should not be momentum dependent! they are the elements that saves you when your state is shit!
This is an interesting point. And I take it to mean that on high momentum even if I make one mistake, I'm able to think of something else to do, and do it, to get me back on track. My reflexes are better (or maybe more precisely my equanimity and my access to my unconscious store of experience and theory).

I also think you make the point that the right call is the right call. And I think there is a deep level of trust where both evaluating my own experience and in-depth talks with others (whose input I respect) about it will help, so that I know 100% what do to regardless of what "feels risky" in the moment.

Now, one thing I find with good momentum is me being more willing to follow through on more risky (as I perceive it) or dominant or leading type situations, and to also do them without hesitation. Which in some sense makes them work better or be accepted by others more readily.

Side Note: I remember calling up this girl who had been more or less stringing me along, trying to put me in the boyfriend zone, but honestly wasting my time. We had hung out already once outside of the night we met, and it wasn't going anywhere fast. But I called her, maybe the day after an SNL, and I was just more focused and dominant. I unconsciously cared less for her bullshit, and it reverberated. I didn't offend her, I was just a man whose time was valuable (cause I just got done fucking another girl).

What I also find is in a situation like I described before, even though I knew the right call, I wasn't treating it like the lay or not get laid type of important decision that it was.

And I'd say it's more macro momentum I'm talking about, going out week after week, having some good interactions, a kiss here, feel up a girl there, and then of course an SNL, that's rocket fuel! haha

Yes I love these discussions. Remind me of the old days! I am enjoying this nostalgia trip! Discussing actual field related stuff is a thing that sadly many guys don't enjoy doing on pick up forum for some reasons (threads that are about concepts and reflections tend to get more activity)
Same. And I don't understand why come on a pickup forum and not discuss this stuff. But then again, I did go out for years doing pickup without any involvement with the community, so to me this is an extremely fun hobby. It's something I would do regardless, these interactions just make it that much more fun, interesting, focused, and even enlightening.

I am staying a bit more home now since I am a bit sick (hence why I am going forum nuts ATM).
On that note, me too. Was really disappointed because I felt Saturday would be a great night after the buildup of momentum, but wandering around in the cold Wednesday and Friday (and possibly, kissing that girl on Friday), took it's toll. I've been sick since then and just now feel almost 100% better.
 

Teevster

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This is an interesting point. And I take it to mean that on high momentum even if I make one mistake, I'm able to think of something else to do, and do it, to get me back on track. My reflexes are better (or maybe more precisely my equanimity and my access to my unconscious store of experience and theory).

Your vibe, presence and overall performences are better - it is like your default state makes you more attractive, hence more compliance. This is why high momentum lets you get away with more... but sure it is also related to better reflexes and better performances such as better overall delivery.

Now, one thing I find with good momentum is me being more willing to follow through on more risky (as I perceive it) or dominant or leading type situations, and to also do them without hesitation. Which in some sense makes them work better or be accepted by others more readily.
Bingo.

So low momentum = low dopamine levels (low dominance and confidence) and low serotonin levels (bad vibe)
High momenting = high dopamine levels (high dominance and confidence) and high serotonin levels (good vibe)

The way it works:
Low momentum: low social and sexual momentum
Average momentum: High social momentum
High momentum: high social and sexual momentum

You always start on low momentum by feeling not sexual (and getting little sexual response back as well as mediocre social response - i.e. hard to open and hook)
Then... as momentum goes up, you feel more socially at ease and you get better social responses (easy to open and hook), but the sexual part is lacking (unless you deliberetly enforce it with escalation and sex talk!). This situation often leads to "good nights" with tons of hooks but unless played right (or being lucky) will not result in a lay - very frustrating types of nights.
High momentum - easy hooks, and things get sexual, sometimes even without you deliberately escalating the vibe or setting the sexual frame - you are a walking sex machine. Sure sometimes you have to engage in deliberate sexualisation, but less is required and it is usually done with little to no resistance.

I am here mostly talking about macro-momentum - although this can apply to micro momentum (your momentum of a particular night - even though I personally do not depend on "getting in state" - I just "do it")

Side Note: I remember calling up this girl who had been more or less stringing me along, trying to put me in the boyfriend zone, but honestly wasting my time. We had hung out already once outside of the night we met, and it wasn't going anywhere fast. But I called her, maybe the day after an SNL, and I was just more focused and dominant. I unconsciously cared less for her bullshit, and it reverberated. I didn't offend her, I was just a man whose time was valuable (cause I just got done fucking another girl).
Sometimes it feels like women can sense your momentum from distance. When you have low momentum the flake rate is insane. On high momentum they come running after you (and you don't care since you are exhausted from ONS). Yes when you need a lay the most (on low momentum) it becomes also the hardest time to get it. When you don't need it, they come flocking to you.

But yeah momentum always goes up and down and no bad momentum lasts forever. Same can sadly be said for high momentum. There is a kind of a pendulum effect at play.

And I'd say it's more macro momentum I'm talking about, going out week after week, having some good interactions, a kiss here, feel up a girl there, and then of course an SNL, that's rocket fuel! haha
We are on the same page. Focusing on creating macro-momentum is smart sure, but mostly a newbie thing. Good state is not required in order to pull. In fact it can work against you on higher levels (i.e. feeling the dopamine rush and spam approaching and getting carried away instead of being focused and strategic).

Same. And I don't understand why come on a pickup forum and not discuss this stuff. But then again, I did go out for years doing pickup without any involvement with the community, so to me this is an extremely fun hobby. It's something I would do regardless, these interactions just make it that much more fun, interesting, focused, and even enlightening.
The cause of my many frustrations on pick up forums over the years. Now I stopped caring. Noobs who wants advice (with a true willingness to learn usually by posting technical questions or asking for solutions to real life problems will get some advice. The rest, well they can do whatever they want. I also enjoy talking to other "fieldjockeys".

On that note, me too. Was really disappointed because I felt Saturday would be a great night after the buildup of momentum, but wandering around in the cold Wednesday and Friday (and possibly, kissing that girl on Friday), took it's toll. I've been sick since then and just now feel almost 100% better.
I had my landlord over... so not much party either... sad.

It is life. Not being able to go out is the ultimate frustration of a real PUA.

Best,
 

Watts

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Your vibe, presence and overall performences are better - it is like your default state makes you more attractive, hence more compliance. This is why high momentum lets you get away with more... but sure it is also related to better reflexes and better performances such as better overall delivery.
Very true.

Bingo.

So low momentum = low dopamine levels (low dominance and confidence) and low serotonin levels (bad vibe)
High momenting = high dopamine levels (high dominance and confidence) and high serotonin levels (good vibe)

The way it works:
Low momentum: low social and sexual momentum
Average momentum: High social momentum
High momentum: high social and sexual momentum
I like this. Also I have a theory about sex vs. masturbation. Since you get serotonin from human touch, it's likely the missing ingredient from masturbation i.e. you get the dopamine rush but not the serotonin that should accompany it, so you are "unbalanced". It one of the reasons I believe that sex with a real partner (even a fatty boomba) provides positive momentum.

You always start on low momentum by feeling not sexual (and getting little sexual response back as well as mediocre social response - i.e. hard to open and hook)
Then... as momentum goes up, you feel more socially at ease and you get better social responses (easy to open and hook), but the sexual part is lacking (unless you deliberetly enforce it with escalation and sex talk!). This situation often leads to "good nights" with tons of hooks but unless played right (or being lucky) will not result in a lay - very frustrating types of nights.
High momentum - easy hooks, and things get sexual, sometimes even without you deliberately escalating the vibe or setting the sexual frame - you are a walking sex machine. Sure sometimes you have to engage in deliberate sexualisation, but less is required and it is usually done with little to no resistance.
Reminds me of 60 years of challenge. Honestly true though, just some funny sexual comments or sexualizing with any "yes" girl (or perhaps even fake flirting with an older woman) can start that sexual momentum in the right direction. Social momentum is obviously much easier.

I am here mostly talking about macro-momentum - although this can apply to micro momentum (your momentum of a particular night - even though I personally do not depend on "getting in state" - I just "do it")
Truth be told state dependent game is intermediate at best. We agree there.

Sometimes it feels like women can sense your momentum from distance. When you have low momentum the flake rate is insane. On high momentum they come running after you (and you don't care since you are exhausted from ONS). Yes when you need a lay the most (on low momentum) it becomes also the hardest time to get it. When you don't need it, they come flocking to you.

But yeah momentum always goes up and down and no bad momentum lasts forever. Same can sadly be said for high momentum. There is a kind of a pendulum effect at play.
Just another reason to lower standards when in period of low momentum and a take a freebie fuck! haha

We are on the same page. Focusing on creating macro-momentum is smart sure, but mostly a newbie thing. Good state is not required in order to pull. In fact it can work against you on higher levels (i.e. feeling the dopamine rush and spam approaching and getting carried away instead of being focused and strategic).
True about it being newbie, but also in some sense foundational i.e. I know I need to just go out a few times to get the rust off. If I haven't been out in a long time, I also don't judge (or even write down) the sets. I'm just getting back in shape and it's the rounds that matter.

I agree with you on getting carried away. I say some wild shit when I'm high on momentum. It's funny, I make myself (and anyone around me) laugh, but it's sometimes not ideal for seduction. It's actually something I have to put the breaks on when I'm really feeling good (or high on socializing).

The cause of my many frustrations on pick up forums over the years. Now I stopped caring. Noobs who wants advice (with a true willingness to learn usually by posting technical questions or asking for solutions to real life problems will get some advice. The rest, well they can do whatever they want. I also enjoy talking to other "fieldjockeys".
I appreciate that. I remember that crazy polyamory guy who kept bothering you. And of course Blackdragon. In fact, me trying to follow Blackdragon's advice about "always having sex" with a girl every time we met actually screwed up a girl I had already laid. She was willing to blow me, but the logistics were bad, and I was like "gotta have sex!", which we did (our second time, in our second meeting) but she resented me for it!

I had my landlord over... so not much party either... sad.

It is life. Not being able to go out is the ultimate frustration of a real PUA.

Best,
Haha, yeah, once you're getting some results and have a plan of action, not going out bothers you. Agreed!
 

Teevster

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I like this. Also I have a theory about sex vs. masturbation. Since you get serotonin from human touch, it's likely the missing ingredient from masturbation i.e. you get the dopamine rush but not the serotonin that should accompany it, so you are "unbalanced". It one of the reasons I believe that sex with a real partner (even a fatty boomba) provides positive momentum.
I think you are very right about this about the human touch lacking in masturbation - although I am not an expert here. Maybe Carousel knows.

Reminds me of 60 years of challenge..
I used to interact a lot with 60 years of challenge (sixty) back in the days - we discussed a lot over skype I remember. We have inspired each other a lot, and even worked on many techniques together.

Honestly true though, just some funny sexual comments or sexualizing with any "yes" girl (or perhaps even fake flirting with an older woman) can start that sexual momentum in the right direction. Social momentum is obviously much easier
This is so true for me! Once you get a sexualized interaction (for example if you get some sex talk succesfully going) it impacts other future interactions. Very good observation.

Truth be told state dependent game is intermediate at best. We agree there.
Oh god, I am known to push it too far sometimes. I remember in 2017... I went out with painkiller in one pocket, and coughing syrup in the other. Bad call.

Just another reason to lower standards when in period of low momentum and a take a freebie fuck! haha
Agreed haha! we used to have a thing back in the days called "paying your taxes" which was that each PUA had to fuck the ugliest girl they could find once a year. That was "paying your taxes". Stupid thing, but fun. I haven't paid my taxes yet. Shit! guess It whale season just arrived.

Back to serious: I have noticed that the better you get, the hotter the freebie usually becomes. The "lowest" threshold of what you are willing to fuck goes up the more skileld and experienced one becomes. In other words, when I lower my standards to get my momentum going I would perhaps lower it to a solid 7 (I don't really favour the 1-10 scale no more, but using it to prove a point) whereas many years ago, It may would have been a 5 (or... worse)

True about it being newbie, but also in some sense foundational i.e. I know I need to just go out a few times to get the rust off. If I haven't been out in a long time, I also don't judge (or even write down) the sets. I'm just getting back in shape and it's the rounds that matter.
Accepting and not despairing when having low-momentum is the cure to get out of low-momentum. Despairing just makes you sink deeper and deeper into the hole.

Acceptance of low-momentum is usually a sign of experience in my book.

I agree with you on getting carried away. I say some wild shit when I'm high on momentum. It's funny, I make myself (and anyone around me) laugh, but it's sometimes not ideal for seduction. It's actually something I have to put the breaks on when I'm really feeling good (or high on socializing).
I discussed this with Chase a while back. Those are the nights where you feel on fire, talk to every one, and everything hooks. Everybody loves you, and you feel amazing - like a God, only to get a reality check when you go home alone... lol. Such state distracts you from the mission. It is like being high on coke. Fun right there and then, but distracts your from actually going for pussy.

When I hit such state, I force myself to calm down! I get away from the crowd and chill... in order to get my head clear. Funny how back in the days, this was a desirable state (because with lower skills, this would increase your odds of getting laid), whereas now it is not (with higher skills, you do not cash in as much benefits from this yet you keep the negative side-effects).

I appreciate that. I remember that crazy polyamory guy who kept bothering you. And of course Blackdragon. In fact, me trying to follow Blackdragon's advice about "always having sex" with a girl every time we met actually screwed up a girl I had already laid. She was willing to blow me, but the logistics were bad, and I was like "gotta have sex!", which we did (our second time, in our second meeting) but she resented me for it!
You are talking about that NWP guy. Yes the guy was annoying. He also only had a few limited lays behind his belts and was not actually in field meeting women. Yet he was acting like a major authority and pissing many veterans off with his bullshit. Glad he is gone.

Blackdragon is a different story. He is gone now and I see no points in discussing my quarrels with him any further. He does his things and I do mine! That's the ideal situation for us all.

Best,
 

Carousel

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Ref neurotransmitters and hormones, from various kinds of sources, I believe it goes like this:

Dopamine -> Extraversion, motivation to socialize. Lack of dopamine results in low motivation and maybe this is why people who blunt their dopamine receptors by some kind of hedonism or addiction become unmotivated.

Serotonine -> Dominance, confidence. Jordan Peterson is right about this one. Low serotonine results in various obsessive symptoms.

Oxytocin -> Bonding (released by cuddling).

Endorphins -> Bliss-like states, gratitude, painkiller.

Also I am unsure whether macro-momentum or the response from laying a new woman can be narrowed down to a single chemical or even a collection of chemicals. Probably involves some higher level structures like gene expression or rewiring of neural nets.
 
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Watts

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Ref neurotransmitters and hormones, from various kinds of sources, I believe it goes like this:

Dopamine -> Extraversion, motivation to socialize. Lack of dopamine results in low motivation and maybe this is why people who blunt their dopamine receptors by some kind of hedonism or addiction become unmotivated.

Serotonine -> Dominance, confidence. Jordan Peterson is right about this one. Low serotonine results in various obsessive symptoms.

Oxytocin -> Bonding (released by cuddling).

Endorphins -> Bliss-like states, gratitude, painkiller.

Also I am unsure whether macro-momentum or the response from laying a new woman can be narrowed down to a single chemical or even a collection of chemicals. Probably involves some higher level structures like gene expression or rewiring of neural nets.
I'll reply to this since I can do so quickly, and then go back to finishing my FR, and then reply to @Teevster 's very helpful insights.

I don't think it's an either or, but instead looking at it at one level above or below. So I think certain chemicals are being released (or not), and I also think there is rewiring of neural nets (learning, which is what I think you meant) as well as the simple level of belief i.e. "I know I'm masturbating" or "I know I'm having sex." along with any positive or negative consequential beliefs e.g. "So I'm a failure" or "So I'm cool" respectively (I know very little about gene expression, so I won't comment on it).

Also, I don't consider myself an expert on neurotransmitters, and even the experts still don't know have the simplified answers that we often think we have. For instance, there are multiple Dopamine pathways, and not all necessarily activated in the same way (one may be downstream of the other for instance).

And this has been theorized to account for certain things we see in people's disorders, e.g. why is it that almost every gambling addict is also almost always either a sex addict or drug addict or both, but very few sex addicts or drug addicts are gambling addicts? Why the one way correlation? Do sex or drugs tap into a more "primary" reward circuitry than gambling? Or is it mostly social i.e. gambling isn't available as widely in it's most addicting forms, but sex and drugs are?

The reason I mentioned Serotonin as lacking, is because it's a social neurotransmitter and would be lacking without a human being there (as opposed to dopamine or endorphins).

Also, as to my understanding, Vasopressin is the male bonding hormone and is modulated by Testosterone. Oxytocin is the female bonding hormone and is modulated by Estrogen.

So Estrogen X Oxytocin = effective bonding feeling (in a sense, perhaps the sex hormone also makes you make more of it). And women with their much higher Estrogen are much more greatly affected by it. (Men are of course still affected by Oxytocin, and also still have low levels of Estrogen)

There is actually also an interesting study where people were given Oxytocin as a nasal spray and while it made some people more empathetic, other people felt "overwhelmed". I was curious when I read about this, so I pulled the actual study, and lo and behold these "overwhelmed" people were female. That is, at that dose of Oxytocin they felt so connected to the other person's emotions, having such empathy or emotional resonance, that anything they did and their imagined effect on the other's emotional state created such a feedback loop that it created in a sense an anxiety attack.

I wish I had bookmarked the study, but it was about "Oxytocin nasal spray".

Also, oxytocin makes people pay closer attention to social cues, so women affected by it more, women pay closer attention to social cues, quicker to feel other's emotions etc. Further, oxytocin nasal spray been used to treat a symptom of autism, an inability to read social cues, and autism has been theorized to be an "extreme male brain".
 

Watts

Modern Human
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Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
155
I used to interact a lot with 60 years of challenge (sixty) back in the days - we discussed a lot over skype I remember. We have inspired each other a lot, and even worked on many techniques together.
This is great. And I can see you having some similar concepts, with your own spin, more and more as we interact.

Any idea what he is doing these days? (other than the occasional blog post)

This is so true for me! Once you get a sexualized interaction (for example if you get some sex talk succesfully going) it impacts other future interactions. Very good observation.
Thank you.

Oh god, I am known to push it too far sometimes. I remember in 2017... I went out with painkiller in one pocket, and coughing syrup in the other. Bad call.
Haha, isn't that where you claimed you had achieved game without state? Didn't you pull? I do remember seeing something like that.

The health conscious part of me cringes at the thought. I'd much rather rest and recuperate.

Agreed haha! we used to have a thing back in the days called "paying your taxes" which was that each PUA had to fuck the ugliest girl they could find once a year. That was "paying your taxes". Stupid thing, but fun. I haven't paid my taxes yet. Shit! guess It whale season just arrived.
Sharpen your harpoon! lol

I actually liked this concept. There is something to be said to just get laid and get a fuck under your belt.

I think Thinman did something similar at the start of his journey, he needed to get it out of the way so he could transition to his after marriage player phase.

Back to serious: I have noticed that the better you get, the hotter the freebie usually becomes. The "lowest" threshold of what you are willing to fuck goes up the more skileld and experienced one becomes. In other words, when I lower my standards to get my momentum going I would perhaps lower it to a solid 7 (I don't really favour the 1-10 scale no more, but using it to prove a point) whereas many years ago, It may would have been a 5 (or... worse)
Not to mention an increase in fundamentals. And body language, which is in some sense implied in skilled.

I agree though. My freebie might be another guy's reach, something to be grateful for!

Accepting and not despairing when having low-momentum is the cure to get out of low-momentum. Despairing just makes you sink deeper and deeper into the hole.

Acceptance of low-momentum is usually a sign of experience in my book.
Agree and thank you. And I'd also say this applies to many other ares of life, not just game.

Karen Horney of "Neurosis And Human Growth" calls it "the tyranny of the shoulds" i.e. I should be fucking hotter girls, I should be making more money, I should be lifting more weight if only I had xyz. But that attitude of being upset about where you "should" be instead of working at where you are holds a lot of people back and they stagnate.

I discussed this with Chase a while back. Those are the nights where you feel on fire, talk to every one, and everything hooks. Everybody loves you, and you feel amazing - like a God, only to get a reality check when you go home alone... lol. Such state distracts you from the mission. It is like being high on coke. Fun right there and then, but distracts your from actually going for pussy.
Never done coke, but I can imagine social god mode feels a lot like it!

And more fun if you already know who you're going home with that night as opposed to having to deliver a seduction.

When I hit such state, I force myself to calm down! I get away from the crowd and chill... in order to get my head clear. Funny how back in the days, this was a desirable state (because with lower skills, this would increase your odds of getting laid), whereas now it is not (with higher skills, you do not cash in as much benefits from this yet you keep the negative side-effects).
This is a good point I think only guys with experience in field and experience getting better will get.

Just spamming mediocre game can be better than doing a little, but really good game, strategic, controlled, focused, requires not doing lots of random things, or wasting lots of time or energy. I can certainly see this.

I'll keep an eye on my state next time I'm getting too high and reign myself in. Thanks for the advice.

You are talking about that NWP guy. Yes the guy was annoying. He also only had a few limited lays behind his belts and was not actually in field meeting women. Yet he was acting like a major authority and pissing many veterans off with his bullshit. Glad he is gone.
Those guys tend to ruin the culture on forums, I'm starting to believe.

Blackdragon is a different story. He is gone now and I see no points in discussing my quarrels with him any further. He does his things and I do mine! That's the ideal situation for us all.
That's probably for the best. I won't bring it up again.

And also after I wrote that I thought about it, and I think I was being unfair to him. His approach was dogmatic, and I allowed myself to accept his approach uncritically, largely because I had little experience with running an actual rotation (hence using his advice in order to convert an SNL to a MLTR). But I'm much more responsible for the way things happened than he is. Plus, he was just giving out information, like I am here, so... caveat emptor! haha
 

naturalmikey

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jun 9, 2019
Messages
815
what is the purity gambit. if i try to pull a girl and she says “i’m not like other girls” i just say “oh my god you think i’m just like every other guy. you can come over but we are not having sex.” clearly this doesn’t work as well when there’s been heavy physicality. but heavy physicality pre sex location isn’t my thing.
 

Teevster

Tribal Elder
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Aug 23, 2013
Messages
562
Location
Paris
what is the purity gambit. if i try to pull a girl and she says “i’m not like other girls” i just say “oh my god you think i’m just like every other guy. you can come over but we are not having sex.” clearly this doesn’t work as well when there’s been heavy physicality. but heavy physicality pre sex location isn’t my thing.
It was posted in the T/T forum this week end (a forum that any person practicing pu who happen to be on the forums a lot should check out at least weekly). The link to the gambit is listed in the OP. Also if you search "purity" is the first one that pops up.
 

Teevster

Tribal Elder
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Messages
562
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Paris
Any idea what he is doing these days? (other than the occasional blog post)
Sadly. I lost contact with him. I can try to reach him.

Haha, isn't that where you claimed you had achieved game without state? Didn't you pull? I do remember seeing something like that.
Yupp. That is correct.

But yes better to rest. :)
Agree and thank you. And I'd also say this applies to many other ares of life, not just game.

Karen Horney of "Neurosis And Human Growth" calls it "the tyranny of the shoulds" i.e. I should be fucking hotter girls, I should be making more money, I should be lifting more weight if only I had xyz. But that attitude of being upset about where you "should" be instead of working at where you are holds a lot of people back and they stagnate.

Very good point.
This is a good point I think only guys with experience in field and experience getting better will get.

Just spamming mediocre game can be better than doing a little, but really good game, strategic, controlled, focused, requires not doing lots of random things, or wasting lots of time or energy. I can certainly see this.

I'll keep an eye on my state next time I'm getting too high and reign myself in. Thanks for the advice.
Agreed and you are welcome

And also after I wrote that I thought about it, and I think I was being unfair to him. His approach was dogmatic, and I allowed myself to accept his approach uncritically, largely because I had little experience with running an actual rotation (hence using his advice in order to convert an SNL to a MLTR). But I'm much more responsible for the way things happened than he is. Plus, he was just giving out information, like I am here, so... caveat emptor! haha
Sure. Regarding relationship advice, I very much prefer Franco's from Franco-seduction (not the chief admin here). He is the man. Nothing beats his stuff.

Best,
 

Watts

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
155
Sadly. I lost contact with him. I can try to reach him.
Perhaps let him know there is a whole crop of new seducers out here he can reach.

Having him here would certainly spark some interesting discussions.

Sure. Regarding relationship advice, I very much prefer Franco's from Franco-seduction (not the chief admin here). He is the man. Nothing beats his stuff.
Worth it to bookmark for when I'm laying some girls I'd like to transition into relationships. I appreciate it!

And thanks for all your replies though Alek! Taking the time to go over all this has been very beneficial for me! (I hope others as well!)
 

Teevster

Tribal Elder
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Aug 23, 2013
Messages
562
Location
Paris
Perhaps let him know there is a whole crop of new seducers out here he can reach.

Having him here would certainly spark some interesting discussions.
I will do so. Maybe @Chase can reach out?

And thanks for all your replies though Alek! Taking the time to go over all this has been very beneficial for me! (I hope others as well!)
You are more than welcome :)
 

Pitcher

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Aug 25, 2019
Messages
116
Location
North Carolina, USA
I discussed this with Chase a while back. Those are the nights where you feel on fire, talk to every one, and everything hooks. Everybody loves you, and you feel amazing - like a God, only to get a reality check when you go home alone... lol. Such state distracts you from the mission. It is like being high on coke. Fun right there and then, but distracts your from actually going for pussy.

When I hit such state, I force myself to calm down! I get away from the crowd and chill... in order to get my head clear. Funny how back in the days, this was a desirable state (because with lower skills, this would increase your odds of getting laid), whereas now it is not (with higher skills, you do not cash in as much benefits from this yet you keep the negative side-effects).
+

This is a good point I think only guys with experience in field and experience getting better will get.

Just spamming mediocre game can be better than doing a little, but really good game, strategic, controlled, focused, requires not doing lots of random things, or wasting lots of time or energy. I can certainly see this.

I'll keep an eye on my state next time I'm getting too high and reign myself in. Thanks for the advice.
So it sounds like the y’all are talking about a kind macro-momentum as it relates to the night game scene.

Are there different kind of momentums that result in the benefits and the negatives?

For example, I recently started working a part-time job in pretty close quarters with 6 all at-least decently attractive women between the ages of 21 & 60 (honestly the 60yr old was probably the most beautiful of all of them back in her day lol). I’m working on a machine that has me in my own masculine world most of the time, but also has me flowing through other spaces in the boutique factory to take care of tasks, interacting with the girls and flirting with them. Throughout the day (an 8 hour work day) I can feel this momentum build up of my ability to dance with the female spirit.

Yesterday I feel that led me to have an incredible approach of 3 cute girls stretching in a park that I turned into an impromptu yoga class. If I hadn’t had that ongoing dance earlier at work then I doubt I would have been able to approach so smoothly, hook effortlessly, turn it into a yoga instadate, number close the cutest one and seed a potential beach outing for this weekend.

At a very rudimentary level I would break seduction momentum down into general social momentum (talking to strangers, making approaches, platonic conversation - though no man to woman convo should ever be fully platonic right lol ;)) and general sexual/feminine essence momentum that comes from that dance with female energy.

This morning I have woken up losing most of that momentum from yesterday it feels like. Maybe the only way to keep it is to wake up next to a girl and get some morning sex lol. Or get out of the house, make an approach, and if worst comes to worst, start the flirting dance with my barber when she trims my beard in a few hours :D

One downside to this way of thinking is that perhaps my initial interactions won’t turn out as good as a self-fulfilling prophecy because I believe without the social/sexual momentum I’m not as ON seductively.

Something I think about because I’ve gone from shy, socially inhibited, and very reliant on alcohol when I first found out about personal development/game at the end of 2012 to naturally outgoing, comfortable in my own skin, and successful in unconventional social situations without alcohol (like hug challenges) today. In that time my results with women have improved a lot relative to where I started, but I think that they pale in comparison to my results with becoming naturally outgoing. Kind of hard admitting that I’ve spent years barking up the wrong tree.

@Watts to your point of momentum holding you back from actually delivering a seduction, I think that’s where I’m at to a certain extent.
 

Watts

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
155
So it sounds like the y’all are talking about a kind macro-momentum as it relates to the night game scene.
I tend to use macro and micro to delineate between within the same night and between nights. Anything that occurs over multiple nights is macro, that same night, micro.

But you can step in and out however you like, you could use the term to mean within the same venue, or the same set, or even the same routine possibly. It's just a convention.

But I think most people express it the way I have.

Are there different kind of momentums that result in the benefits and the negatives?
I'd probably define momentum as a universally positive/negative with it being a measure of "moving towards your goals" or "the feeling of moving towards your goals".

I'd also say there can be drawbacks, like what Teevster and I discussed where you get into a social high where you just start saying or doing outlandish things, which are fun and funny but may not be the most effective for seduction. Or, that you are simply doing a lot more because you feel good to keep moving (keep your momentum up), when you should really chill, take a breather, and be a bit more strategic in your moves.

Teevster:

"When I hit such state, I force myself to calm down! I get away from the crowd and chill... in order to get my head clear. Funny how back in the days, this was a desirable state (because with lower skills, this would increase your odds of getting laid), whereas now it is not (with higher skills, you do not cash in as much benefits from this yet you keep the negative side-effects)."

Watts:

"This is a good point I think only guys with experience in field and experience getting better will get.

Just spamming mediocre game can be better than doing a little, but really good game, strategic, controlled, focused, requires not doing lots of random things, or wasting lots of time or energy. I can certainly see this.

I'll keep an eye on my state next time I'm getting too high and reign myself in. Thanks for the advice."

I would also include in momentum not just social and sexual, but also just physical things like getting enough sleep, eating right, working out, as well as other goal related things like doing well at work or reading an interesting book. And then, you get into switching costs (I brought this up with @Skills in his thread https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/how-doubling-my-income-has-affected-my-seduction-lifestyle-for-those-of-you-that-complain-about-money.21900/) as well as the basic opportunity cost that time spent doing these other things takes away from going out and seducing women.

For example, I recently started working a part-time job in pretty close quarters with 6 all at-least decently attractive women between the ages of 21 & 60 (honestly the 60yr old was probably the most beautiful of all of them back in her day lol). I’m working on a machine that has me in my own masculine world most of the time, but also has me flowing through other spaces in the boutique factory to take care of tasks, interacting with the girls and flirting with them. Throughout the day (an 8 hour work day) I can feel this momentum build up of my ability to dance with the female spirit.
That's the best I can explain things from how I see it.

Once you use the term, "female spirit", you lose me.

That's fine if it makes sense to you, helps you find "your truth", it's just not how I understand things.

The closest I could come would be a feminine way of communicating or relating, or a comfort with relating to more feminine people (of either gender).

There is probably a corollary here of guys who like girls who like sports (a masculine pursuit).

Yesterday I feel that led me to have an incredible approach of 3 cute girls stretching in a park that I turned into an impromptu yoga class. If I hadn’t had that ongoing dance earlier at work then I doubt I would have been able to approach so smoothly, hook effortlessly, turn it into a yoga instadate, number close the cutest one and seed a potential beach outing for this weekend.
It wouldn't surprise me if spending all day socializing with women at your work made the 3 set open of cute girls feel more easy and natural.

At a very rudimentary level I would break seduction momentum down into general social momentum (talking to strangers, making approaches, platonic conversation -
Yes, as above.

though no man to woman convo should ever be fully platonic right lol ;))
Hopefully the one between you and your mother. lol

Sorry, couldn't resist.

and general sexual/feminine essence momentum that comes from that dance with female energy.
Sure. Again, if that's how it makes sense to you.

This morning I have woken up losing most of that momentum from yesterday it feels like. Maybe the only way to keep it is to wake up next to a girl and get some morning sex lol.
This works. Field tested :cool:

But a morning routine is something to snap you out of your sleep-like state and create "momentum for the day" (for anything). Have you tried yoga? The other day these three cute girls flagged me down and absolutely insisted they show me a this "no pants yoga".

Or get out of the house, make an approach, and if worst comes to worst, start the flirting dance with my barber when she trims my beard in a few hours :D
Yeah sure, that works. I like trying to flirt with everyone (and with the men, in a non-sexual way, so banter). I find when I do this I have better banter when in matters, either with that rare set from going about my day or when I am out at night with purpose.

One downside to this way of thinking is that perhaps my initial interactions won’t turn out as good as a self-fulfilling prophecy because I believe without the social/sexual momentum I’m not as ON seductively.
This only happens if you let it create a mental feedback loop i.e. "I'm not on so I'm going to suck" instead of "I may or may not be on, and I may or may not do well, but I'm just going to engage with this, be present, and enjoy the process."

There's also a concept in psychology that has to do with these feedback loops, second order emotions.

So in this case you have anxiety "I won't do well" and now you have anxiety about your anxiety "because I think I won't do well, I'll do even worse!"

Or it can be with fear "I'm afraid" and then "I'm afraid I'll feel afraid and now I'm even more afraid!".

See how that works?

The key is to stop being concerned with the outcome, focus on the process, and be kind and forgiving to yourself (and try to have fun!).

Something I think about because I’ve gone from shy, socially inhibited, and very reliant on alcohol when I first found out about personal development/game at the end of 2012 to naturally outgoing, comfortable in my own skin, and successful in unconventional social situations without alcohol (like hug challenges) today. In that time my results with women have improved a lot relative to where I started, but I think that they pale in comparison to my results with becoming naturally outgoing. Kind of hard admitting that I’ve spent years barking up the wrong tree.
Gotta forgive yourself. At least you've got something productive to work towards now. You've only got today, make good use of it.

Also, why are you still doing challenges (set by other people, and for basic social interactions)? Instead, just try to have a habit where you create positive engaging experiences with everyone you meet, through presence, understanding and compassion, as well as insouciance and wit.

And as a side note, you should probably not link your real instagram to a pickup forum. This stuff isn't always seen kindly by some people. And, I wouldn't use the exact same username for here as your instagram (I suggest you alter one, probably this username).

to your point of momentum holding you back from actually delivering a seduction, I think that’s where I’m at to a certain extent.
I woudn't say momentum is "holding me back", although with more momentum I will be better. I'm saying that choosing to just fuck the fatty to get back in the swing of things is something I resist, although I've done it several times to get started again. I generally try to just hookup with a cute girl, that I know I can get with decent game, instead. You can look at my recent FR for a close call (I am still texting with her, so we'll see) of something like that.


In other words I go for the maybe's instead of the yes's because I like the maybe's better, even though a quick yes would be the quickest way to get the maybe's (knowing I'd be that much more "on" the next time I went out.).
 
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