Socializing Unusual nightlife staff behavior

[Kvothe]

Hello,

I went out last night and was waiting in line. I go to this venue fairly often, and the bouncers and doormen recognize me. Most of the staff inside the venue like me and readily welcome me with at least a warm smile and a bit of conversation.

The bouncers at the door are a bit more distant. I'm always polite, though depending on my mood/state, I can be a bit more or less social on a given day. Yesterday was a more non-social day. I walked in, and the first guy let me in, and the second guy, comes up to me and says:

Him: Man, you're here all the time, and you don't treat us right. You want to be building a reputation, you should be treating us right.
Me: I don't treat you right?
Him: Yeah man, you don't treat us good

I talked with a friend, who is a regular and who is much higher status in the venue than me. He said they were basically asking me to buy them stuff.

Was wondering if people had any tips on this? I usually go into the club around 9PM anyway to avoid having to wait in line-but I don't cut ahead in line and ask the door guys to let me go early, and I don't ask the bouncers for any favors. So I was a bit confused.

I apologized to him later in the night for any offense I might have given, mainly because the last thing I want to do is get on the wrong side of the bouncers at the door. I also offered as I was leaving to pick up something for the guy, and he refused, though in that moment he was busy at the door, and so my asking him was likely uncalibrated.

Regardless I think I'm going to stay away from the venue for a few weeks to try to erase some negative associations they have with me.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Kinda sounds like they want tips. You can also bring them drinks or bring them girls.
What cultural context is this, I mean what cultural background are these bouncers from?

 

[Kvothe]

They're black, might be African black, not African-American. Yeah I guess next time around I'll give them both a $20. I do want to avoid it seeming reactive, or making it something they feel entitled to from me though.

 

[Skills]

Usually for christmas i give all doormen $100. But what happened to you super unusual...

 

[Kvothe]

Usually for christmas i give all doormen $100. But what happened to you super unusual...

This is a good tip-will do

 

[Conquistador]

might be African black

Yeah a lot of African and West/South Asian cultures have…different concepts of reciprocity.

 

[Pelusita]

This is a very weird situation and i have honestly never had any bouncers tell me this. I have doormen being not nice to me due to them seeing me pull hot ass from the venue though.

In Scandinavia you don’t tip the bouncers, this can make it worse. Buy the doormen some energydrink before you stand in line and give them one each as a nice gesture after they let you in.

 

[Chase]

Anecdotally the US seems to be moving to a beggar economy.

There's a lot of reports of this, e.g., with DoorDash:

https://www.reddit.com/r/doordash/comments/148hp43
https://www.reddit.com/r/doordash/comments/148qp4j
Anyway, never heard or seen something like this, but the guy telling you "we / us" kinda makes it sound like it's a regular thing with them.

They're talking about you being here all the time and building a reputation and being good to them. The doormen at that club are probably in the habit of asking regulars to tip them.

Clubs have their own cultures, and sometimes habits get established at ABC club that you won't see at other clubs because at some point a bouncer established a precedent (say of regularly collecting tips from regulars) and other bouncers working there maintained it.

I'd probably try the drinks thing @Karea Ricardus D. and @Pelusita are talking about, alongside also being very sociable with them and chatting them up like we're buddies: "Hey man, how's the night going? Cool crowd or just normal?" etc. Then after a few rounds doing that (drinks + social) the next time you're talking to them ask them, "So hey, am I treating you better? You feeling more loved?" and see what they say.

Either they are going to tell you yeah man, we just wanted to be treated with some respect, you're doing awesome, or they're going to ask for more stuff, and be clearer about what it is they want (e.g., money), which you will have to decide if you are going to give them ("All right, maybe I can do that now and then") or laugh it off ("Dude, you're killing me. You don't like these Rockstars? I'll get you Monster next time").

Chase

 

[Swati]

They're black, might be African black, not African-American

lmao, usually ^

sorry to hear this, I get along with some of my bouncers, others are clowns, at the same time trying to get some pussy...

seem like the problem is a butt-hurt bitch that didn't get an imaginary "tip", typical low-function IQ people use confrontation like this.
the frame of the situation has already changed with him instilling fear in you. Not going back, etc... I do not advocate this you can't bitch out right now if your relationship is good with the other staff. he will smell your fearing and he will continue to chip at you, go back this week, don't give him money if you want to give money you can to the other staff that stands at the door but not this one specifically, you come to monitor his behavior later on, see if you can flip him as times gone on. He already senses fear, which is why he told you, and if you react to the behavior immediately you appear even weaker. be polite say "hi" and nothing more and continue your regular routines

I've ONLY tipped bouncers/doorman AFTER they've let me in or have built recognition

when you "tip" it usually has to be done during the "Random" times like a slow Friday dap him up with 50 dollars in hand to make it memorable, after time even if there's the cover he let you in for free, but the generally after when you have run through the motions of the becoming a normal/regular first.

My wing broke into the high-end venue, one that I ended up working at anyways, cause the hierarchy is wacky, still at sometimes he wasn't able to get in because of the "black" bouncer, who no one liked

 

[Skills]

lmao, usually ^

sorry to hear this, I get along with some of my bouncers, others are clowns, at the same time trying to get some pussy...

seem like the problem is a butt-hurt bitch that didn't get an imaginary "tip", typical low-function IQ people use confrontation like this.
the frame of the situation has already changed with him instilling fear in you. Not going back, etc... I do not advocate this you can't bitch out right now if your relationship is good with the other staff. he will smell your fearing and he will continue to chip at you, go back this week, don't give him money if you want to give money you can to the other staff that stands at the door but not this one specifically, you come to monitor his behavior later on, see if you can flip him as times gone on. He already senses fear, which is why he told you, and if you react to the behavior immediately you appear even weaker. be polite say "hi" and nothing more and continue your regular routines

I've ONLY tipped bouncers/doorman AFTER they've let me in or have built recognition

when you "tip" it usually has to be done during the "Random" times like a slow Friday dap him up with 50 dollars in hand to make it memorable, after time even if there's the cover he let you in for free, but the generally after when you have run through the motions of the becoming a normal/regular first.

My wing broke into the high-end venue, one that I ended up working at anyways, cause the hierarchy is wacky, still at sometimes he wasn't able to get in because of the "black" bouncer, who no one liked

Yeah this is a good point cause this does not happen..... it seems they saw op as a target for whatever reason and they were trying to hustle/extor him cause this does not happen...

At this point doing any reward is weak, thinking about it.... I do the Christmas stuff cause the doormen let me in free, no cause they corner me...

 

[Teevster]

Yeah this is a good point cause this does not happen..... it seems they saw op as a target for whatever reason and they were trying to hustle/extor him cause this does not happen...

At this point doing any reward is weak, thinking about it.... I do the Christmas stuff cause the doormen let me in free, no cause they corner me...

The whole thing is a pretext.

With bouncers, unless you do something outright stupid (and you know you did - such as fighting, being too drunk, harassing women, not paying in the bar, doing drugs), they will always use a pretext to kick you out - something they make up.

Basically here the bouncer is using a pretext - creating a plausible deniability screw him over. Because @Kvothe hasn't done anything wrong that could be framed as an excuse to kick him out, they have to invtent something. They do this with me too, which is why I am ultra paranoid in clubs.

They look for excuses to get you out of the venue. If they can't find any, they use a pretext. I had bouncers call me a drug dealer, a pimp, not gay enough, not paying bills in the bar, bothering the dj (I don't talk to DJs). ETC.

And to many people, such event seem totally random. You get this WTF moment - you don't understand what's wrong - or what you did wrong. But in my experience it is always a pretext - a made up story to cover up for the real reason for why the bouncer don't like you.

In my experience it is always because:
- You talked, kiss or fucked a girl he likes
- You are too popular with the ladies - and they get jealous
- They feel you get more social power than them.

I noticed also that bouncers - usually masculine muscular guys really HATES seeing men who are skinny, feminine looking, flashy... or gay-lookin get women. This is because in their brains, women like tough guys and seeing you succeed totally hijacks them and pisses them off. The only feminine looking "pussymen" that get girls are those who buy tables - but kvothe just like me, don't.

So it generates a massive cognitive dissonance.

This is why I believe that whenever one choose to become a regular in a venue, one has to create alliances (preferably the bouncers, but if not possible, he should focus on the rest of the staff... considering he said he was a regular he would have had time to eventually meet the manager). Kvothe did not and thus was easy to screw over.

-Teevster

 

[Skills]

The whole thing is a pretext.

With bouncers, unless you do something outright stupid (and you know you did - such as fighting, being too drunk, harassing women, not paying in the bar, doing drugs), they will always use a pretext to kick you out - something they make up.

Basically here the bouncer is using a pretext - creating a plausible deniability screw him over. Because @Kvothe hasn't done anything wrong that could be framed as an excuse to kick him out, they have to invtent something. They do this with me too, which is why I am ultra paranoid in clubs.

They look for excuses to get you out of the venue. If they can't find any, they use a pretext. I had bouncers call me a drug dealer, a pimp, not gay enough, not paying bills in the bar, bothering the dj (I don't talk to DJs). ETC.

And to many people, such event seem totally random. You get this WTF moment - you don't understand what's wrong - or what you did wrong. But in my experience it is always a pretext - a made up story to cover up for the real reason for why the bouncer don't like you.

In my experience it is always because:
- You talked, kiss or fucked a girl he likes
- You are too popular with the ladies - and they get jealous
- They feel you get more social power than them.

I noticed also that bouncers - usually masculine muscular guys really HATES seeing men who are skinny, feminine looking, flashy... or gay-lookin get women. This is because in their brains, women like tough guys and seeing you succeed totally hijacks them and pisses them off. The only feminine looking "pussymen" that get girls are those who buy tables - but kvothe just like me, don't.

So it generates a massive cognitive dissonance.

This is why I believe that whenever one choose to become a regular in a venue, one has to create alliances (preferably the bouncers, but if not possible, he should focus on the rest of the staff... considering he said he was a regular he would have had time to eventually meet the manager). Kvothe did not and thus was easy to screw over.

-Teevster

Jesus! Different reality never ever seen this thanks god! Totally sucks if true,close to bullying...

 

[Swati]

In my experience it is always because:
- You talked, kiss or fucked a girl he likes
- You are too popular with the ladies - and they get jealous
- They feel you get more social power than them.

pussy is what likely arousal jealousy and hating, or being one of that super uppity behavior and overly try hard social dudes, annoying, his mind is "I'm gonna fuck you up in NOT being able to get the pussy" or "he looks like a pussy" (bully mentality)

Later when they see you talk to you down badly and come over be like "lOoK I'Ma HeLP yoU OuT...." In your bad situation, snake/pussy like behavior

bully/gangsters when picking out prey, they don't pick the strong or ones that aren't easy to fuck with other than when they want to ladder climb they pick the bigger boss to fight for dominance

think about*
50 Cent went there do you think the bouncer would be talking this bullshit? even without the fame, likely not cause 50 has a KILLER presence and is not to be fucked with. dark energy not everyone in this particular instant is helpful not so much for gaming girls

This guy is from a lower socioeconomic background with a crab in a barrel in mentality, given your details of where his from, passively threatening, and gaslighting you
he might just not like your look, sees you as weak, etc in this case, it's better if you befriend get the people within the venue to note this guy's behavior.

you might want to try this go when there is no line, girls, and less than half filled chat up new people, gets workers you know to introduce you to new people...maybe the manager would be there or easier to access compared to during peak times... off my mind is this good damage control/ precaution against this idiot, his less likely to fuck with you with within a short time span

 

[Teevster]

Jesus! Different reality never ever seen this thanks god! Totally sucks if true,close to bullying...

Well I am not saying that EVERY bouncer is like that, but as you know it suffices that there is one rotten apple to ruin your reputation in a venue. As you know, bouncers have each others back - if one does not like you, and wants you out, his colleagues are unlikely to interfere.

It may not happen to you because you are a pretty buff guy (bald, pretty tall and muscular) which in theory does not differentiate you too much from the bouncers physical stereotype. I notice that @Pelusita has less problems in regards to this because he too is a buff latin. What bothers them is when a guy of a different stereotype gets the girls and they don't. Their social frame is : women like muscular tough guys. And seeing a guy like me or kvothe pull really generates a cognitive dissonance.

That said, even without this, some bouncer will be mad at you for pulling or having success with women. And thus they want you out because of jealousy or simply due to the fact that they can't bear the sight of seeing other men having success. It is linked to insecurities, and many bouncers do suffer from certain insecurities.

So Pablo too, will have some bouncers hating him, looking for a reason (or make up a reason) to get him out of the club. It happens to most good PUAs I know off.

If I am not mistaken you tend to go to venues where you are true regular and know everyone VERY well. Thus you are unlikely to face this problem. This problem occurs when 1. you are new to the club and starts getting some success, 2. start knowing the staff barely, becoming a regular, but not a regular enough that people who hate you are demotivated from fucking with you or 3. you are the top cat and some status chaser wants to screw you up. This happened to me 2 weeks ago. I was kicked out of my regular venue by this new bouncer for very obscure reasons. I called the manager and they apologized and gave me a free bar. That bouncer barely looked at me the next time.

-Teevster

 

[Teevster]

pussy is what likely arousal jealousy and hating, or being one of that super uppity behavior and overly try hard social dudes, annoying, his mind is "I'm gonna fuck you up in NOT being able to get the pussy" or "he looks like a pussy" (bully mentality)

I don't think they see him as weak. I think they see mim more as a threat honestly.

-Teevster

 

[Chase]

Agree with @Swati it was a "felt fear" "smelled vulnerability" scenario.

That was one of the first things I thought actually when you mentioned being in a "non-social mode."

When you're in a down mood, just wandering in, people who want to impose frames on you feel a lot more at liberty to do that. As opposed to, say, when you are energetic and outgoing, imposing frames on the world, etc.

I don't think the solution is just "well you simply always need to be an extrovert all the time everywhere you go with everyone" because that's impractical. Even hardcore extroverts don't always feel like being bouncy and chipper all the time.

But in this case, you know that at this particular club, the doormen are vultures who will try to take advantage of anyone they sense they can intimidate and get one over on. So at least at this club, when you're rolling up, you need to be in social mode. Maybe do a few street approaches before you reach this club every time you're going to it / chat up some clerks at little shops / make it a point to always, always socialize with everyone around you in line and get good vibes going.

Not going back, etc... I do not advocate this you can't bitch out right now if your relationship is good with the other staff. he will smell your fearing and he will continue to chip at you, go back this week, don't give him money if you want to give money you can to the other staff that stands at the door but not this one specifically, you come to monitor his behavior later on, see if you can flip him as times gone on. He already senses fear, which is why he told you, and if you react to the behavior immediately you appear even weaker. be polite say "hi" and nothing more and continue your regular routines

Fully agreed with this one.

You either need to not go back for like six months... until the door staff has changed or else they've totally forgotten about you completely... or else go back this weekend but be SOCIAL with a confident frame when you get there so these guys feel a lot less confident about trying to impose their frames. Smile, be cool. Maybe do the drinks thing if you want to.

I had a club I liked back in the day, got into a stupid bar fight, bouncers had to get involved, the police got called. I just didn't go there for like half a year, a lot of the staff had changed, and I rebuilt my rep and befriended most of the staff again (a few familiar faces, many new ones), never had an issue after that.

But yours is a lot less dramatic than that and no reason to drop going just because of a one-time bouncer soft confrontation.

Go back, be really social, positive, and confident, and see if these guys say anything. With some luck they'll just keep their lips zipped.

edit:

I don't think they see him as weak. I think they see mim more as a threat honestly.

-Teevster

That's possible too. The thing that stood out to me was the non-social mood, plus the reaction to them imposing their frames:

Him: Man, you're here all the time, and you don't treat us right. You want to be building a reputation, you should be treating us right.​

Kvothe: I don't treat you right?​

Him: Yeah man, you don't treat us good​

... where he's just giving the guy an opening to repeat and amplify his frame.

A "seizing control of the frame" response would be more along the lines of:

Him: Man, you're here all the time, and you don't treat us right. You want to be building a reputation, you should be treating us right.​

​

Kvothe: Oh man, that's totally my bad! I hadn't even realized. Hey I've got lots of love for you guys. I guess you mean because I always talk to the staff inside but I'm in like this low-key mode rolling up. Hey my bad. How's your night going, man? How's the business working here?​

... where you just reframe it into them being a bit sad because you seem to prefer the other staff over them, and now you realize it and are going to be friendly and social with them, fixing "the problem."

It could be a combination of these. These bouncers feel dissonance/threat seeing skinny @Kvothe (I assume he's skinny?) picking up on chicks that don't go for these bouncers, then he rolls up one night in a low energy state and that's their opportunity to strike.

Chase

 

[DarkKnight]

Wow interesting discussion.. I agree with Swati by the way these guys are looking for a mark. Not to get a bit too woo woo about this but I notice that on semen retention I get challenged wayy wayy wayy less and otherwise challenges come faster from outsiders. It is like people can sense from your nonverbals how prepared you are to give them a piece of mind. So sometimes I tend to abstain for streaks when I notice that an environment is more difficult to deal with and it makes a lot of difference. The more buildup of a streak I have the more masculine I am and the less people dare to challenge. A lot of this is very subtle people unconsciously pickup your preparedness to put them in place or resist their frames whatever you want to call it.

Same with winner momentum bu the way. When you are on a winning streak people sense this.

Anyway my longest streak has been when I have known I will be in places where I will face a lot of challenges and they always went well due to preparation

 

[Teevster]

That's possible too. The thing that stood out to me was the non-social mood, plus the reaction to them imposing their frames:

Him: Man, you're here all the time, and you don't treat us right. You want to be building a reputation, you should be treating us right.Kvothe: I don't treat you right?Him: Yeah man, you don't treat us good

The thing that stood out for me was.... this... they see him as a thread. This is not what someone says to another person they consider "weak" or "easy target". This is something yu could utter to someone you see as a threat or a competitor in the social hierarchy.

Now, that all said, I somewhat agree with you guys that he eventually sniffed vulnerability, but this was not what he initially sniffed. He initially sniffed competition.

However, kvothe's response.... being overly sorry (which is ok as a first response) and he trying to offer gifts later on made the bouncer realize that... oh "i can tool him". It was at THAT point that the bouncer sniffed vulnerability. Not initially.

Notice how the bouncer did not accept his gifts.... this is because it was all a PRETEXT to test him, or try to tool him.

-Teevster

 

[Kvothe]

Thanks everyone for the advice. Definitely a new experience for me, since I've never been a regular at a spot until recently. @Teevster advice is to wait a week and then go back, and at that point get myself into the good graces of the management and avoid these kinds of things in the future. I'll make sure to treat the bouncers warmly, but not supplicatingly (and build better social momentum before going out)-but will not offer to get them anything-though the damage to frame has already been done. I won't offer to buy them anything though. In the worst case, I can always dip out for a few months. Thankfully NYC has no shortage of venues.

It anyway works out, as I have a date planned tomorrow with someone visiting NYC who is leaving on Saturday, and on Saturday it is supposed to pour, so I have plausible deniability to not go to an outdoor rooftop venue anyway.

With regard to frames, I had initially thought to try to get clarification on what he meant, but I've always been less confrontational and so didn't want to ask for clarifications on what he meant. This is a bad habit from a more sheltered upbringing I expect.

Thanks @Chase, @Teevster, @Swati, @Skills, @Pelusita, @Surveyor, @DarkKnight, @Karea Ricardus D. for the advice. This is certainly an illuminating discussion.

 

[Teevster]

@Teevster advice is to wait a week and then go back, and at that point get myself into the good graces of the management and avoid these kinds of things in the future.

And when you do go back, go there with "good company" e.g. regulars, high value people, or girls.

-Teevster